From: owner-wireless-digest@smoe.org (wireless-digest) To: wireless-digest@smoe.org Subject: wireless-digest V2 #60 Reply-To: wireless@smoe.org Sender: owner-wireless-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-wireless-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk wireless-digest Monday, March 29 1999 Volume 02 : Number 060 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [Imogen] Pontiac show [steve ] RE: [Imogen] MTV Review ["Converse, Kevin" ] Re: [Imogen] rufus opener [charlie ] [Imogen] RE: MTV Review ["Converse, Kevin" ] RE: [Imogen] MTV Review [Nanikita@aol.com] Re: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review [Shirley Ye ] RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review ["Converse, Kevin" ] RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review [Shirley Ye ] [Imogen] HTML Tags [Dustin Shelby ] RE: [Imogen] MTV Review [Dustin Shelby ] RE: [Imogen] HTML Tags ["John J. Mihaljevic" ] RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review ["Converse, Kevin" ] [Imogen] Immi's B'ham show [honeydew ] RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review [Shirley Ye ] RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review ["Converse, Kevin" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 03:28:14 -0500 (EST) From: steve Subject: [Imogen] Pontiac show I just got back from the pontiac rufus/imogen show. It was amazing. I think the place was sold out, there were so many people there. Wow, i was so impressed with imogen. Her voice is so powerful, and her piano playing is freaking amazing. i mean, ive always liked her, but i had no clue she was that good. Um, it was pretty obvious that most of the people were there for rufie, because no one really noticed her before/after the show (how can you not notice a 6ft something woman with peacock hair and red kneehigh boots????). Anyways. Um, heres the setlist, not really in order: Candlelight Come Here Boy Sweet Religion Oh Me, Oh My (she said this was about london) Whatever Rake It in (god DAMN this kicked ASS. Too bad the entire audience laughed when she flipped out. Losers.) The Pocket Song (haha i dont remember the name, but this song ROCKED...she said it was supposed to be for a soundtrack, but it didnt make it or something) Sleep She also came out and did Martha Wainwright's part on April Fools. it was really cool. Ah, it was so short! She discussed how the guy she wrote Whatever/Sweet Religion for was in the audience. She had been continuing a long distance relationship with him, and this was the first time she performed the songs with him there. After the show, the 7th house people shoved us away:(. BUt i managed to catch up with imogen and make a complete fool of myself. haha. I got my pic taken with her and she signed my cd "Dear steve, thanks a lot! See you in Columbus! A ton of hugs" Isnt she sweet???!?!? hahaha:) I told her that i loved her hair, so before we took a pic she poofed it out even more hahaha. it was a good show. i got to meet rufie outside by his bus. there were only like 7 people waiting. he was too fucking cute. it was a good night. Cant wait for cleveland and columbus!:) steve ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:30:44 -0800 From: "Converse, Kevin" Subject: RE: [Imogen] MTV Review Hello All! First off, the categorizing of an artist is a need that almost every reviewer has. They seem to think that they can only relay an impression to the reader if they compare the artist to someone else. We all do it to some degree. Did you see that new movie? It's kind of like Die Hard meets Pee Wee's Big Adventure. Comparison's can be quite flattering ( my example withstanding ). Obviously, the two best known female rock artists with a certain personal feel and attitude are Kate Bush and Tori ( and it doesn't hurt that Tori and Imogen both play piano ). Kate Bush being a pioneer for 'alternative' sounding female artists, and Tori being the queen of personality in the music business. I don't mind these comparison nearly as much as some of you seem to, and the reason being is that most of you listen to and like Tori, correct? And I would venture to guess that the one singular thing that offered you the opportunity to hear Imogen was a Tori connection - Either a friend or a radio station or a mailing that is somehow a Tori connection for you. The reviewer is making that same leap - If you like Tori, try this girl out! Not to say that they sound alike but to say, 'hey, she has a sound you might appreciate.' Unfortunately this reviewer had to say 'clone'. For that there is no excuse. I will say that in the review the author had the perfect chance to make the triumvirate of comparison's. "Heap manages to make a distinct imprint while still offering variety, which is no easy task. "Angry Angel" and "Useless" inject a spurt of pissed-off energy to Imogen Heap's basic sound, to good effect." I was waiting for to invoke the name Alanis. Thankfully, she resisted. As for why Imogen isn't a HUGE success yet - One immensely popular radio hit. Most artists don't gain the grand success until they break the top ten ( or twenty ) on the Billboard or other major chart. Likewise, video play on MTV or VH-1 definitely helps. And that has not really been happening for Imogen yet. She hasn't had a song stay radio hot for several weeks or a video that has received a high rotation on any video station. At least not around here. She got some moderate play on one radio station out here that I know of and they sponsored her tour dates when she was in S.F. Other then them even the so-called alternative station out here, Live 105, hasn't given her much of a listen. Not until fans or Almo can convince radio stations that she is a bona-fide wunderkind, then her success will be by word of mouth only. That isn't bad, it just takes longer. My two shiny Abe Lincoln's! Kevin - ---------- From: Dustin Shelby[SMTP:neptin@home.com] Sent: Friday, March 26, 1999 5:00 PM To: wireless@smoe.org Subject: [Imogen] MTV Review Found this review and thought you guys would be interested: http://www.mtv.com/mtv/music/reviews/archive/blather/imogen_mega.html Why do you guys think she hasn't taken off? Best Regards, Dustin Shelby http://www.imogenheap.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:38:01 -0800 From: charlie Subject: Re: [Imogen] rufus opener Shirley Ye wrote: > Actually, the opening act is Martha Wainwright at the Fillmore, SF show for > Rufus in April. This is according to an Advertisement put out by the > FIllmore itself in the SFBay Guardian this weekend > damn overly musical family.. well, like i said, it was just a rumor. but i'm glad i know. although i'd prefer it to be imogen anyday... thanks shirley. charlie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 11:00:35 -0800 From: "Converse, Kevin" Subject: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review Thanks Nanikita! I agree that the music someone listens to should be because they enjoy what they hear. Not because it gets played on the radio. It is silly that the number of times a song gets played is why people buy something. But, unfortunately, most people don't take the time to try and find good, new artists. They only buy what they have been conditioned to like because someone else said it was good or popular. That is how radio and MTV and VH-1 have become so influential. Almo does have to do more to push Imogen, but unfortunately, the stations have the last word in what gets played ( actually, the audience has a big role in that too ). Personally, I think Imogen has already reached a level of success that many musician's are not lucky enough to ever reach. It seems to me she is playing what she WANTS to play and is lucky enough to have people who love her music because it is HER's ( not a clone, a copy or a cheap rip off ). How often do musicians get to play their music the way they want and have people listen to it and discuss it and want to experience it over and over again? Not too often. A lot of times popular music artists are manufactured. That is the saddest thing that could ever happen. - - I apologize if there are any Backstreet Boys fans out there - *grin* - I have to say that I think Imogen has a certain purity to her music. She is a musician because she has something to offer. I think we should be thankful that we get to share in that. I seem to have a lot of these damn pennies lying around. ;-) Kevin - ---------- From: Nanikita[SMTP:nanikita@funkyrebel.com] Sent: Monday, March 29, 1999 10:31 AM To: wireless@smoe.org; conversk@segasoft.com Subject: RE: MTV Review <>Kevin, Your review of "MTV's Review" was outstanding! I couldn't have said it better myself. So many things, you took the words right out of my mouth. Being a Tori fan myself (and a Fiona Apple one), I was encouraged to hear Immi because of that. I'm very grateful. Having said that, as you mentioned, to use the word "clone" is absolutely inexcusable! Once anyone is encouraged to hear a new artist, if they come to like/LOVE their work, it should be on that artist's merit and talent. I know that's the case for me. I love Tori. I love Fiona. I love Imogen. (many others I love too, that are not piano driven...Garbage, Beck, Juliana Hatfield, Alanis, Cranberries...;) Anyway, having become a fan, I never ever compare one to the other. I love and indulge my senses with each on their own. I think whether Immi makes it big or not, she's SO talented and a TRUE artist. The present fact that she doesn't get much radio/MTV/tv exposure, it's not due to the lack of talent or amazing musical ability and range, but the grim fact that music has been sold to the exploitation and marketing of no talents. I agree that we as fans should continue to spread the good word. But I also think that ALMO, needs to generate more interest by exercising their label muscle. Giveth and taketh in. Alright, those are my 2 cents too. Nanikita Imogen Heap - Being Free http://www.funkyrebel.com/imogen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:01:06 EST From: Nanikita@aol.com Subject: RE: [Imogen] MTV Review Hi everyone... Kevin - Your review of "MTV's Review" was outstanding! I couldn't have said it better myself. So many things, you took the words right out of my mouth. Being a Tori fan myself (and a Fiona Apple one), I was encouraged to hear Immi because of that. I'm very grateful. Having said that, as you mentioned, to use the word "clone" is absolutely inexcusable! Once anyone is encouraged to hear a new artist, if they come to like/LOVE their work, it should be on that artist's merit and talent. I know that's the case for me. I love Tori. I love Fiona. I love Imogen. (many others I love too, that are not piano driven...Garbage, Beck, Juliana Hatfield, Alanis, Cranberries...;) Anyway, having become a fan, I never ever compare one to the other. I love and indulge my senses with each on their own. I think whether or not Immi makes it big, she's SO talented and a TRUE artist. The present fact that she doesn't get much radio/MTV/tv exposure, it's not due to the lack of talent or amazing musical ability and range, but the grim fact that music has been sold to the exploitation and marketing of no talents. I agree that we as fans should continue to spread the good word. But I also think that ALMO, needs to generate more interest by exercising their label muscle. Giveth and taketh in. Alright, those are my 2 cents too. Nanikita Imogen Heap - Being Free http://www.funkyrebel.com/imogen ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:05:20 -0800 From: Shirley Ye Subject: Re: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review You know, reviewers and critics like to group all the female musicians together - why don't they ever lump the boy groups together? You never hear: "so and so is just another Beatles wannabe" or "if you like radiohead you will definitely like blur" or "underworld is just like massive attack" etc It's great that female artists have recently _really_ come into the limelight. But, I think those (male) reviewers and critics still don't know shit about women, let alone women in music. Last year in the LA Times Most Influential Music Top 100, there were only 8 female musicians (if that) listed. I think because these critics know jack, they will take the one female artist that they _do_ know (Kate Bush, Tori Amos, etc) and use her as the paragon to hold all other female artists to, until the newcomer/lesser-known becomes more prominent in the media in her own right. It's because they just don't know any better, they can't discriminate. "Two breasts and a vagina, is a bit creative, writes her own music!... must be another Kate clone" is what they think. PS By the way, I don't actively listen to Radiohead, Blur, Beatles, or Underworld. I just randomly picked out names to use as examples... which is probably what those critics do anyway. Shirley Ye Berkeley, California shye@uclink4.berkeley.edu I am not an angry girl, but it seems like I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear. - -Ani Difranco, Not a Pretty Girl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 12:46:29 -0800 From: "Converse, Kevin" Subject: RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review Shirley, I will have to respectfully disagree with your e-mail. As a former music store employee all I ever heard was how much this band sounded like that band regardless of gender. I do feel that the women in music get an unfair shake when it comes to the pigeon-holing, but that is because at this point in time there are still not that many popular female artists. The crutch is not that they can't figure anyone else to compare an artist to other then Tori or Kate or Alanis or Natalie Merchant or Indigo Girls or Sarah or ( you get the point ) it's that at this point in time, if you think an artist is good, strong, independent you go for the immediate Tori/Kate comparison. Two trailblazers in the rock arena. When you walk into any music store you will find that the vast majority of bands are all male or male fronted. The music industry, up until recently has never thought a female could hold an audience. Likewise, the entertainment industry in general has failed to recognize the power of a female star. It wasn't until Julia Roberts and Demi Moore showed true Box Office staying power that females were considered bankable stars in Hollywood. But that is really a tangent of the issue. The true issue is the lack of intelligent critiquing in any form of media/entertainment. The old saying goes, 'Those who can't, teach.' That should be modified to 'Those who can't, critique.' The lack of truly intelligent writing in most trade magazines is really where the problem lies. I don't mean to belittle the lack of respect that most female artists have gotten over the years in the music industry, but the blatantly misinformed statement that was made about male group's never being lumped together really got to me. It isn't about women artists being forced into a single group, it's about a lack of ways to thoroughly describe something as intangible as music so that the reader can get a clearer picture of what the reviewer thinks. Imagine trying to describe the truly beautiful sounds of a talented musician without referring to categories or other artists? Most people wouldn't be able to follow what is being said. Instead of reading Shakespeare, just give me the Cliff Notes. Reviewers, station programmers and promoters have all found that the easiest way to describe an artist is to compare. Rather then describe the music, they lumped artists into groups. It's all about appealing to the lowest common denominator. It's easier to sell something if you can say it's 'like this, but better.' I don't know how many times I heard that this band or that ripped off the Beatles for a song. Or how often you hear that some band is another NIN clone. Kenny Wayne Sheppard is just like Stevie Ray Vaughn. Or how about all of the Swing Bands that are now so popular. All of them are compared to each other. The statement that this only happens to women is a little far fetched. Too much loose change! Want a penny ( or two ) ? Kevin - ---------- From: Shirley Ye[SMTP:shye@uclink4.berkeley.edu] Sent: Monday, March 29, 1999 12:05 PM To: Converse, Kevin; wireless@smoe.org; conversk@segasoft.com; 'Nanikita' Subject: Re: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review You know, reviewers and critics like to group all the female musicians together - why don't they ever lump the boy groups together? You never hear: "so and so is just another Beatles wannabe" or "if you like radiohead you will definitely like blur" or "underworld is just like massive attack" etc It's great that female artists have recently _really_ come into the limelight. But, I think those (male) reviewers and critics still don't know shit about women, let alone women in music. Last year in the LA Times Most Influential Music Top 100, there were only 8 female musicians (if that) listed. I think because these critics know jack, they will take the one female artist that they _do_ know (Kate Bush, Tori Amos, etc) and use her as the paragon to hold all other female artists to, until the newcomer/lesser-known becomes more prominent in the media in her own right. It's because they just don't know any better, they can't discriminate. "Two breasts and a vagina, is a bit creative, writes her own music!... must be another Kate clone" is what they think. PS By the way, I don't actively listen to Radiohead, Blur, Beatles, or Underworld. I just randomly picked out names to use as examples... which is probably what those critics do anyway. Shirley Ye Berkeley, California shye@uclink4.berkeley.edu I am not an angry girl, but it seems like I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear. - -Ani Difranco, Not a Pretty Girl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 14:21:26 -0800 From: Shirley Ye Subject: RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review You're right when you say that pigeonholing happens regardless of gender. But, pigeon-holing happens to female artists far more than male. You've conceded that there aren't many popular female artists, but I don't think that's because of the lack of talent or appeal (ie Immi) but more indicative of the male bias in the music industry (and our society). After all, why didn't the music industry think women could be successful (as you have maintained)? _Not_ because there weren't any female musicians, but because of bias. I don't buy that the root of the problem lies in the press. The lack of intelligent critique which you claim is endemic of the entire music industry is especially true when pertaining to female musicians. Kate Bush is truly a creative genius - before music videos, there was Kate. She really took control over her own career. But, do you _really_ think, that 20 years after KT made her first splash, and has since kept such a _low_ public profile, merits "clone" after "clone"? Quite honestly, I don't hear as many comparisons made between male artists and the Beatles as I do female artists to KT. And, you could quite arguably trace a lot of our modern rock&roll back to the Beatles (so I hear from my Beatlefanfriends). Part of the problem _is_ critics, et al, trying to appeal to lowest common denominator, but the larger problem is just pure sexism that doesn't allow women the individual qualities granted to men. Sexism that is prevalent in the entire music industry and our society at large. Shirley Ye Berkeley, California shye@uclink4.berkeley.edu I am not an angry girl, but it seems like I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear. - -Ani Difranco, Not a Pretty Girl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:03:59 -0500 From: Dustin Shelby Subject: [Imogen] HTML Tags Hey! I am getting alot of bounces (message that arnt sent to the list because there is something wrong with them) because of HTML tags. HTML tags are things such as different fonts, colors, sizes, etc of text. If you send a message to be posted to the list, and there are HTML tags in it, it will not be posted to the list. So please, everyone turn of your HTML tags. This seems to be a major problem with Outlook Express. I dont know how to turn them off, so could someone that does please post instruction to the list? Thanks :) Once you have turn off HTML tags you will need to repost your message. Dustin Shelby ImogenHeap.com Webmaster http://www.imogenheap.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:09:16 -0500 From: Dustin Shelby Subject: RE: [Imogen] MTV Review At 09:30 AM 3/29/99 -0800, Converse, Kevin wrote: >Hello All! > >First off, the categorizing of an artist is a need that almost every reviewer has. They seem to think that they can only relay an impression to the reader if they compare the artist to someone else. >We all do it to some degree. Did you see that new movie? It's kind of like Die Hard meets Pee Wee's Big Adventure. Comparison's can be quite flattering ( my example withstanding ). >Obviously, the two best known female rock artists with a certain personal feel and attitude are Kate Bush and Tori ( and it doesn't hurt that Tori and Imogen both play piano ). Kate Bush being a pioneer for 'alternative' sounding female artists, and Tori being the queen of personality in the music business. I don't mind these comparison nearly as much as some of you seem to, and the reason being is that most of you listen to and like Tori, correct? And I would venture to guess that the one singular thing that offered you the opportunity to hear Imogen was a Tori connection - Either a friend or a radio station or a mailing that is somehow a Tori connection for you. The reviewer is making that same leap - If you like Tori, try this girl out! Not to say that they sound alike but to say, 'hey, she has a sound you might appreciate.' Unfortunately this reviewer had to say 'clone'. For that there is no excuse. > >I will say that in the review the author had the perfect chance to make the triumvirate of comparison's. > >"Heap manages to make a distinct imprint while still offering variety, which is no easy task. "Angry Angel" and >"Useless" inject a spurt of pissed-off energy to Imogen Heap's basic sound, to good effect." > >I was waiting for to invoke the name Alanis. Thankfully, she resisted. While I really enjoy Alanis Morissette, I also see no similarities between them other than they are female. > >As for why Imogen isn't a HUGE success yet - One immensely popular radio hit. >Most artists don't gain the grand success until they break the top ten ( or twenty ) on the Billboard or other major chart. Likewise, video play on MTV or VH-1 definitely helps. And that has not really been happening for Imogen yet. She hasn't had a song stay radio hot for several weeks or a video that has received a high rotation on any video station. At least not around here. She got some moderate play on one radio station out here that I know of and they sponsored her tour dates when she was in S.F. Other then them even the so-called alternative station out here, Live 105, hasn't given her much of a listen. Not until fans or Almo can convince radio stations that she is a bona-fide wunderkind, then her success will be by word of mouth only. I getting on Almo about this. ;) > >That isn't bad, it just takes longer. Yeah, i guess it is good for Imogen, peace of mind wise, because the amount of fan wil gradually grow. But Obvisouly not money wise ;) > >My two shiny Abe Lincoln's! > >Kevin > > >---------- >From: Dustin Shelby[SMTP:neptin@home.com] >Sent: Friday, March 26, 1999 5:00 PM >To: wireless@smoe.org >Subject: [Imogen] MTV Review > >Found this review and thought you guys would be interested: > >http://www.mtv.com/mtv/music/reviews/archive/blather/imogen_mega.html > > >Why do you guys think she hasn't taken off? > > > >Best Regards, > >Dustin Shelby >http://www.imogenheap.com/ > > Dustin Shelby ImogenHeap.com Webmaster http://www.imogenheap.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:33:06 -0500 From: "John J. Mihaljevic" Subject: RE: [Imogen] HTML Tags Hi all, > Hey! I am getting alot of bounces (message that arnt sent to the list > because there is something wrong with them) because of HTML tags. HTML > tags are things such as different fonts, colors, sizes, etc of > text. If you > send a message to be posted to the list, and there are HTML tags in it, it > will not be posted to the list. So please, everyone turn of your HTML > tags. This seems to be a major problem with Outlook Express. I dont know > how to turn them off, so could someone that does please post > instruction to > the list? Thanks :) I use Outlook, and there are a couple of ways to do this. If you have this mailing list set up as a 'Contact', you need to go into that contact and set it for 'plain text only'. The other way is to go into the Format menu, and click on Plain Text when composing your message. John http://www.city-net.com/~born2run Three Rivers APBA Baseball League http://www.city-net.com/~born2run/trabl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 15:58:57 -0800 From: "Converse, Kevin" Subject: RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review Hi Again. Fingers are getting tired *whew*. Shirley (and everyone else who is watching) - In response to everything you say in your last e-mail. You are right. There is a bias in society today geared towards different individuals depending on the situation. Some people gear their bias' towards minorities, and some towards women. There are bias' against males as well of all racial and other differentiating backgrounds. But I think we have strayed too far from the original issue. The original point of discussion had to do with the fact that a reviewer could only manage to compare Imogen to a handful of other artists. When you pointed out that this ONLY happened to women, that is when I made my point. Pigeon Holing, Bigotry, Bias - Whatever you want to call it, it happens everywhere in society. As for all of your question's concerning bias towards women in general, I think the understandable answer to all of it is that for the past few thousand years humanity has lived in a predominately patriarchal society. That is the short answer. I don't feel like discussing religion, politics and other forms of patriarchal society. My boss doesn't pay me for that. The lack of intelligent critique which I claim is endemic of the entire music industry is especially true to NEW artists, Male And Female. If you have not yet made a distinctive splash in the collective consciousness of the public at large then you will be categorized by your record label, the press and radio stations. I say Tori Amos to anyone on the street and chances are I will get either a positive or negative response. I say Kate Bush to anyone, or Siouxsie and again, they will likely know who I am talking about and have an opinion. If I say Imogen Heap to anyone on the street and the vast majority will look at me like I am talking gibberish. As for the idea that the Beatles aren't compared as much as Kate Bush to newer groups I believe is really easy to explain. Since the Beatles, there have been so many 'clones' of the Beatles that the music listening public has grown to ignore the origin's of the music. Instead of making the right observation that some band ripped off the Beatles ( and if we really want to get down to the nitty gritty, Ray Charles, Chuck Berry and others ) they mistakenly say that some the new band ripped off Oasis. Well, for those of you who weren't paying attention, Oasis is the Beatles just with a hell of a lot more bad attitude and a bit, ok a lot less talent. This is just an example. The tree for male rock bands goes back farther then that of female rock bands, so the source is a lot more obscured. I would venture to guess that in another 20 years Kate Bush will not be mentioned nearly as much as she is now, and likewise, neither will Tori. I will venture a guess though that someone like Imogen could likely be the one they are talking about in twenty years. But, I should point out to you that before Kate there was Janis and Joni, and they used to be the ones all of the female rockers were compared to. It just so happens that that root has been obscured as well. Just as a comparison for some male artists. Any new Hard Rock band with a blues influence these days is automatically compared to Aerosmith. Maybe they should more appropriately be compared to Led Zeppelin. Every new Heavy Metal band is immediately compared to Metallica. That really should go back to Black Sabbath. Any new blues artist is likely compared to either Eric Clapton or Stevie Ray Vaughn or B.B. King. They should probably be compared to Robert Johnson and Muddy Waters. I think those are enough examples. The fact of the matter is, that regardless of who you are, if you are new to an industry ( whatever your chosen profession ) you will be compared to what came before you. I don't deny that a bias has played a part in the NUMBER of female musicians out there, but I do deny that an article written by some MTV hack was poorly written because of sexism. It was poorly written because of the fact that the author didn't dare take the time to truly write about or understand the content of a CD. The easy way out for the author was to compare the CD to something we all might know. The wrong thing for us to do is to blame it on sexism Gotta go to the bank! These pennies are weighing me down. Kevin P.S. - I hope you are having fun with this. I know I am. ;-) - ---------- From: Shirley Ye[SMTP:shye@uclink4.berkeley.edu] Sent: Monday, March 29, 1999 2:21 PM To: Converse, Kevin; Converse, Kevin Subject: RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review You're right when you say that pigeonholing happens regardless of gender. But, pigeon-holing happens to female artists far more than male. You've conceded that there aren't many popular female artists, but I don't think that's because of the lack of talent or appeal (ie Immi) but more indicative of the male bias in the music industry (and our society). After all, why didn't the music industry think women could be successful (as you have maintained)? _Not_ because there weren't any female musicians, but because of bias. I don't buy that the root of the problem lies in the press. The lack of intelligent critique which you claim is endemic of the entire music industry is especially true when pertaining to female musicians. Kate Bush is truly a creative genius - before music videos, there was Kate. She really took control over her own career. But, do you _really_ think, that 20 years after KT made her first splash, and has since kept such a _low_ public profile, merits "clone" after "clone"? Quite honestly, I don't hear as many comparisons made between male artists and the Beatles as I do female artists to KT. And, you could quite arguably trace a lot of our modern rock&roll back to the Beatles (so I hear from my Beatlefanfriends). Part of the problem _is_ critics, et al, trying to appeal to lowest common denominator, but the larger problem is just pure sexism that doesn't allow women the individual qualities granted to men. Sexism that is prevalent in the entire music industry and our society at large. Shirley Ye Berkeley, California shye@uclink4.berkeley.edu I am not an angry girl, but it seems like I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear. - -Ani Difranco, Not a Pretty Girl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:49:41 -0600 From: honeydew Subject: [Imogen] Immi's B'ham show Is anyone on the list going to see Imogen in Birmingham on Monday the 5th that is travelling from Nashville? I know i am going but i'd love to either have someone ride with me or meet up with people there, or even get directions if anyone has them to where the venue is in Birmingham. I am going after school and coming back after Immi's set [i don't care for Rufus] and would love to meet up with some Immi fans while there. Thanks for your time! Danica - -- It's hard for me to say what's right, when all I wanna do is wrong. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/5612/tori/realm.html - - Tori Amos: A Realm of Mp3's Website http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Towers/5612/ - - mental.block [danica's personal site] *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~* ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 17:20:42 -0800 From: Shirley Ye Subject: RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review We are arguing two different fronts of the same battlefield, which is, as I perceive it, the individuality of a particular artist v. pigeon-holing. Our differences lie in which front is more important: 1) sexism within the industry that encourages crude categorization of female musicians in particular or 2) the crude categorization of _all_ music on the part of the critic/reviewer that is unhindered by sexism or gender. I think that you are belittling my point that sexism that _is_ prevalent, not just in the music industry, but society at large, and that sexism within the music industry influences how women are received by the industry. So, the male bias contributes to the lack of appreciation of female musicians as individuals, as do thoughtless critics. Perhaps the MTV hack's review taken by itself is just what it is: a thoughtless review written by someone who does not discriminate between vaginas with pianos and voices. But, I will venture that if you take the totality of reviews critiquing women, and compare those critiquing men, you will find that there is far less introspection when dealing with women as a whole. That, I would attribute to gender bias. Though you have some valid points on newcomers in general, what about well-established female musicians that are still being pigeon-holed. In a very recent interview with Tori Amos about her latest album from the choirgirl hotel (1998) a question was posed asking what she thought of the comparisons made between this album and Kate Bush's work. This is an obviously well-established, more widely known, popular female artist, _still_ being haunted by the female paragon (male) reviewers upheld 20 years ago as the ultimate creative woman artist. Anyway, I think that this is a discussion with no final verdict. We're just restating our original points differently with new sets of evidence to counter the other's. The question is, as I see it, which "front" you think is more important in this battle against thoughtless reviews (of Immi), whether gender plays a role or not. Maybe we should agree to disagree. If we take it further, our discussion could leave the realm of music altogether ;-) Shirley Ye Berkeley, California shye@uclink4.berkeley.edu I am not an angry girl, but it seems like I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear. - -Ani Difranco, Not a Pretty Girl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:19:11 -0800 From: "Converse, Kevin" Subject: RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review I definitely agree that we should end this *soon*. But of course after I defend my honor. *grin* I don't think that the reviewers role is more important in the way female artists are perceived by the public at large. Personally I think public bias is a more dangerous issue. But the article, I thought, was supposed to be the focus. As for belittling any points you made, again I must disagree. Not once did I ever say that a point you made was of no consequence. In fact I strongly believe that any form of bigotry should not be taken lightly. I just felt it was important to step away from a victimization point of view. Especially when this mailing group is not about socio-political topics. I really thought it was more important to restrain this particular topic to the situation at hand which was the article about Imogen. Maybe this really is an irrelevant point, but the reviewer in this instance is a woman. Her distinction between 'vagina's with pianos and voices' and 'penis' with pianos and voices' maybe a little stronger then you realize. On the point about Tori's work still being compared to Kate Bush, even now it might be because, if you listen to the two you will hear that there is a reasonable leap being made there. I would have to say that Tori does have a distinct sound that parallels that of Kate Bush (mainly in voice and phrasing). How strong that similarity is is up to the listener. I personally think it is a passing similarity. On that same note ( no pun intended ), why is it such an issue to be compared to someone else as great as Kate Bush or the Beatles or Led Zeppelin? A band that I happen to adore *may their separated souls rest in peace* Saigon Kick was compared to the Beatles if for nothing more then their harmonization and phrasing. As artists they loved the comparison if for no other reason then to be compared to one of the greatest bands ever. So, I would imagine, the comparison's that you see as an affront may really be nothing more then a point of reference. And in an odd way, a compliment. I personally feel that it would suit the individuality of the artist if the reviewers ( because of the article ) and others in the industry would take the time to describe the music and then make the point that if you enjoy X then you might like Z. That would help in separating people out by their talent's, which is a whole other unquantifiable quality. On a whole I really don't think there are too many bands whatsoever that get away from the grouping/pigeon holing. The only bands that can get away from that are the ones that were/are so great that they transcend culture lines. Tori has not yet had that happen. Her music has not yet reached a level of popularity that she is clearly unique to the general public. An example, Madonna. For a period she was just one of a myriad of artists that were coming out in the eighties. A trend of young female pop singers. It wasn't until nearly ten years after she had begun her popular career ( meaning her time in the spot light when everyone knew who she was ) before comparison's really stopped. Likewise, Aerosmith worked years to break free of the constant comparison's to Led Zeppelin. What is my point here? That maybe it is still too early to say to the world, Tori Amos is a singularly unique sound that stands completely on her own. Although I think she is, the general public still does not know enough about her to instantly recognize her music without some assistance. They may know her name, but her music has not yet permeated the general culture enough to be recognized just for it's sound. Once she has reached that level the comparison's will stop. The truly iconic musician's like the Beatles or Janis Joplin or Led Zeppelin or Jimi Hendrix or Etta James are easily recognized by most people just by sound alone. Their music has so permeated the culture that the comparison's have stopped. Not until an artist reaches that level will they ever avoid the comparison's regardless of who they are. That is another reason why I think the idea that the simple statement that Imogen is a Tori clone is not based in sexism. The popular music culture just has no other clear point of reference. Kevin - ---------- From: Shirley Ye Sent: Monday, March 29, 1999 5:20 PM To: Converse, Kevin; wireless@smoe.org Subject: RE: [Imogen] RE: MTV Review We are arguing two different fronts of the same battlefield, which is, as I perceive it, the individuality of a particular artist v. pigeon-holing. Our differences lie in which front is more important: 1) sexism within the industry that encourages crude categorization of female musicians in particular or 2) the crude categorization of _all_ music on the part of the critic/reviewer that is unhindered by sexism or gender. I think that you are belittling my point that sexism that _is_ prevalent, not just in the music industry, but society at large, and that sexism within the music industry influences how women are received by the industry. So, the male bias contributes to the lack of appreciation of female musicians as individuals, as do thoughtless critics. Perhaps the MTV hack's review taken by itself is just what it is: a thoughtless review written by someone who does not discriminate between vaginas with pianos and voices. But, I will venture that if you take the totality of reviews critiquing women, and compare those critiquing men, you will find that there is far less introspection when dealing with women as a whole. That, I would attribute to gender bias. Though you have some valid points on newcomers in general, what about well-established female musicians that are still being pigeon-holed. In a very recent interview with Tori Amos about her latest album from the choirgirl hotel (1998) a question was posed asking what she thought of the comparisons made between this album and Kate Bush's work. This is an obviously well-established, more widely known, popular female artist, _still_ being haunted by the female paragon (male) reviewers upheld 20 years ago as the ultimate creative woman artist. Anyway, I think that this is a discussion with no final verdict. We're just restating our original points differently with new sets of evidence to counter the other's. The question is, as I see it, which "front" you think is more important in this battle against thoughtless reviews (of Immi), whether gender plays a role or not. Maybe we should agree to disagree. If we take it further, our discussion could leave the realm of music altogether ;-) Shirley Ye Berkeley, California shye@uclink4.berkeley.edu I am not an angry girl, but it seems like I've got everyone fooled. Every time I say something they find hard to hear, they chalk it up to my anger and never to their own fear. - -Ani Difranco, Not a Pretty Girl ------------------------------ End of wireless-digest V2 #60 *****************************