From: owner-wanderer-digest@smoe.org (wanderer-digest) To: wanderer-digest@smoe.org Subject: wanderer-digest V2 #18 Reply-To: wanderer@smoe.org Sender: owner-wanderer-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-wanderer-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk wanderer-digest Thursday, March 14 2002 Volume 02 : Number 018 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Family of Tunings [Susan McNamara ] RE: Family of Tunings [Susan McNamara ] RE: Family of Tunings [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: Family of Tunings [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: Family of Tunings [Susan McNamara ] Re: Family of Tunings ["Michael Paz" ] RE: Family of Tunings ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Family of Tunings ["Kate Bennett" ] RE: Family of Tunings ["Kate Bennett" ] Fwd: BOUNCE wanderer@smoe.org: Non-member submission from [Mark Domyancich ] [Susan McNa] Re: Family of Tunings ["Marian" ] Re: Family of Tunings [Jim McCarthy ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:02:09 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: Family of Tunings Here is a post from the joni list which I thought would be a great thread for wanderer. I use the search functions at the guitar site so effortlessly that I forget maybe there are folk out there who don't know how versatile it is. Do you use the generic tuning sort? Let's talk about it!!! sue At 8:58 AM -0500 3/13/02, Susan McNamara wrote: >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:32:58 -0000 >From: "Laurent Olszer" >Subject: Family of Tunings > >Thanks to Sue's brilliant idea, I decided to reorganize my Joni tablatures by >family of tunings. This saves so much time I would say it's the greatest >thing since mouse traps. >This french jazz singer I've began playing with has a voice and a range that >is uncannily similar to Joni (whom she barely even heard of up to 1 month >ago). So the time has come to get serious. > >Looking at the JMDL guitar search engine, I noticed some tablatures are made >from the Hits/Misses versions. >I never bought these CDs thinking these were the same versions as on the >albums. Was I wrong? > >Sue, Marian, Howard, anybody pleaaaaase can you help me out with Dog Eat Dog's >tuning/chords? > >Laurent - -- "Heart and humor and humility will lighten up your heavy load ... " - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:22:25 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: Family of Tunings Hi Laurent: I'm pretty sure that the tabs that are designated from Hits/Misses are cross-listed with the tab from the original album. The songs are not different, since Hits/Misses is basically Joni's greatest hits album. I'm assuming you are talking about the song Dog Eat Dog and not the album? The only song I personally tabbed from DED was Impossible Dreamer and that was one of my invented tunings since ID is a piano song. I could never get past Joni/Dolby's wall of sound to figure out the tunings on that album. I left that to my trusty compatriots Marian, Mark and Howard. I just checked and we don't have a tab of DED on the site! Sacreblue! what happened!! I guess we have a mission! There is a transcription of the song Dog Eat Dog in the Misses songbook, which I will look at tonight. Another one of those Joni songs where I look at the tuning and say, yeah right, I might be able to play that and make it sound good, duh! But you don't know till you try, right? hmmm, now how am I going to get through work today obsessing about this song...i guess i better drink more coffee!! :-) Mark, Marian, Howard, have you devised a version of Dog Eat Dog yet? take care, sue At 8:58 AM -0500 3/13/02, Susan McNamara wrote: >Date: Tue, 12 Mar 2002 13:32:58 -0000 >From: "Laurent Olszer" >Subject: Family of Tunings > >Thanks to Sue's brilliant idea, I decided to reorganize my Joni tablatures by >family of tunings. This saves so much time I would say it's the greatest >thing since mouse traps. >This french jazz singer I've began playing with has a voice and a range that >is uncannily similar to Joni (whom she barely even heard of up to 1 month >ago). So the time has come to get serious. > >Looking at the JMDL guitar search engine, I noticed some tablatures are made >from the Hits/Misses versions. >I never bought these CDs thinking these were the same versions as on the >albums. Was I wrong? > >Sue, Marian, Howard, anybody pleaaaaase can you help me out with Dog Eat Dog's >tuning/chords? > >Laurent - -- "Heart and humor and humility will lighten up your heavy load ... " - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 15:28:16 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Family of Tunings Sue asked: > Mark, Marian, Howard, have you devised > a version of Dog Eat Dog yet? I'm pretty sure DED is a piano tune (somewhere in all the stacks of tape tree cassettes I have at home there's an interview with Joni where she plays DED and ID on the piano). No reason why someone couldn't invent a guitar version, though. Probably the version of DED in the Hits/Misses songbook is in standard tuning. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 16:15:35 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Family of Tunings For me, organizing the songs into generic families has been the only way to make sense of all of Joni's songs in all of the different tunings. I use the generically sorted list of songs all the time - if I've been playing Night Ride Home and don't want to retune, I look at my list of songs sorted by tuning pattern to find all the other songs I can play with that pattern before I have to change to a new pattern and maybe break a string. To avoid breaking strings, I also give high priorty to: 1. changing between "nearby" patterns - where I only need to change one string or only need to change one or more strings slightly 2. tuning strings down rather than up (although, surprisingly, I have probably broken about as many strings tuning down - it just seems like it ought to be less likely to cause breakage) 3. using a starting point for the pattern that creates a lower tuning than suggested and using the capo to bring it up to the right key Anyway, getting back to speaking of "families of tunings", one thing that is interesting to me is that Joni seems to think of tuning families in a different way than I do. She thinks of the families as being related by the bottom two numbers. But when I look at all the tunings, it seems to me that there are at least some families that are more related to each other by the top notes - the best examples being Cold Blue Steel and related songs (x77543), and Circle Game and related songs (x57543), for which the chord shapes are almost interchangeable or only have small differences. Here's an excerpt of the article from Acoustic Guitar, August 1996, which describes Joni's idea about tuning families: + + + + + + + START of excerpt http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/9608ag.cfm Mitchell has come up with a way to categorize her tunings into families, based on the number of half steps between the notes of adjacent strings. "Standard tuning's numerical system is 5 5 5 4 5, with the knowledge that your bass string is E, right?" she said. "Most of my tunings at this point are 7 5 or 7 7, where the 5 5 on the bottom is. The 7 7 and the 7 5 family tunings are where I started from." Examples of 7 5 tunings are D A D G B D (used for "Free Man in Paris," Court and Spark) and C G C E G C ("Amelia," Hejira): in both cases, the fifth string is tuned to the seventh fret of the sixth string, and the fourth string is tuned to the fifth fret of the fifth string. Similarly, examples of 7 7 tunings are C G D G B D ("Cold Blue Steel and Sweet Fire," For the Roses) and C# G# D# E: G# C# ("Sunny Sunday," Turbulent Indigo): the intervals between the sixth and fifth strings, and the fifth and fourth strings, are seven frets. Mitchell continued, "However, the dreaded 7 9 family - I have about seven songs in 7 9 tunings - are in total conflict with the 7 5 and the 7 7 families. They're just outlaws. They're guaranteed bass clams [laughs], 'cause the thumb gets used to going automatically into these shapes, and it has to make this slight adaptation." Mitchell's 7 9 songs include "Borderline," "Turbulent Indigo," and "How Do You Stop" (Turbulent Indigo), all of which are in the tuning B F# D# D# F# B. + + + + + + + END of excerpt Marian Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:35:22 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: Family of Tunings Thanks, Marian. Had forgotten that DED was a piano song. FYI: here are the songs that are tabbed off DED on the guitar site: Impossible Dreamer * from Dog Eat Dog, Chords by Sue McNamara, Tuning: DAEGBD (D77345) http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/impossibledreamer-sm-c.cfm Lucky Girl * ['This tab is closest to the way Joni plays it' - Marian Russell] from Dog Eat Dog, Chords by Marian Russell, Tuning: CGDEAC (C77253) http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/luckygirl-mr-c.cfm Shiny Toys * ['This tab is closest to the way Joni plays it' - Marian Russell] from Dog Eat Dog, Chords by Marian Russell, Tuning: DADF#AD (D75435) http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/shinytoys-mr-c.cfm The Three Great Stimulants * ['This tab is closest to the way Joni plays it' - Marian Russell] from Dog Eat Dog, Chords by Marian Russell, Tuning: CGCEGC (C75435) http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/thethreegreatstimulants-mr-c.cfm >Sue asked: > >> Mark, Marian, Howard, have you devised >> a version of Dog Eat Dog yet? > >I'm pretty sure DED is a piano tune (somewhere in all the stacks of tape >tree cassettes I have at home there's an interview with Joni where she plays >DED and ID on the piano). No reason why someone couldn't invent a guitar >version, though. Probably the version of DED in the Hits/Misses songbook is >in standard tuning. > >Marian - -- "Heart and humor and humility will lighten up your heavy load ... " - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:06:49 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: Family of Tunings Come on now Marian now that you have a VG-8, isn't life just grand?? You don't have to worry about thinking about stuff like this anymore, you just click over to the next patch. I will admit that I love playing a REAL acoustic though and plan to do so at this years JoniFest for a least a couple of tunes (but I plan to recruit a guitar tech to work with me while I am on lol. I am getting so excited about seeing you and Sue and the rest of the gang. I was hoping we could have a VG-8 extravaganza and have as many of them as possible on stage at the same time and do some insane version of Jungle Line or something far out like that. Love Paz - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: ; Cc: Sent: Wednesday, March 13, 2002 9:15 AM Subject: RE: Family of Tunings > For me, organizing the songs into generic families has been the only way to > make sense of all of Joni's songs in all of the different tunings. I use > the generically sorted list of songs all the time - if I've been playing > Night Ride Home and don't want to retune, I look at my list of songs sorted > by tuning pattern to find all the other songs I can play with that pattern > before I have to change to a new pattern and maybe break a string. > > To avoid breaking strings, I also give high priorty to: > > 1. changing between "nearby" patterns - where I only need to change one > string or only need to change one or more strings slightly > > 2. tuning strings down rather than up (although, surprisingly, I have > probably broken about as many strings tuning down - it just seems like it > ought to be less likely to cause breakage) > > 3. using a starting point for the pattern that creates a lower tuning than > suggested and using the capo to bring it up to the right key > > Anyway, getting back to speaking of "families of tunings", one thing that is > interesting to me is that Joni seems to think of tuning families in a > different way than I do. She thinks of the families as being related by the > bottom two numbers. But when I look at all the tunings, it seems to me that > there are at least some families that are more related to each other by the > top notes - the best examples being Cold Blue Steel and related songs > (x77543), and Circle Game and related songs (x57543), for which the chord > shapes are almost interchangeable or only have small differences. > > Here's an excerpt of the article from Acoustic Guitar, August 1996, which > describes Joni's idea about tuning families: > > + + + + + + + START of excerpt > > http://www.jmdl.com/articles/docs/9608ag.cfm > > Mitchell has come up with a way to categorize her tunings into families, > based on the number of half steps between the notes of adjacent strings. > "Standard tuning's numerical system is 5 5 5 4 5, with the knowledge that > your bass string is E, right?" she said. "Most of my tunings at this point > are 7 5 or 7 7, where the 5 5 on the bottom is. The 7 7 and the 7 5 family > tunings are where I started from." Examples of 7 5 tunings are D A D G B D > (used for "Free Man in Paris," Court and Spark) and C G C E G C ("Amelia," > Hejira): in both cases, the fifth string is tuned to the seventh fret of the > sixth string, and the fourth string is tuned to the fifth fret of the fifth > string. Similarly, examples of 7 7 tunings are C G D G B D ("Cold Blue Steel > and Sweet Fire," For the Roses) and C# G# D# E: G# C# ("Sunny Sunday," > Turbulent Indigo): the intervals between the sixth and fifth strings, and > the fifth and fourth strings, are seven frets. > > Mitchell continued, "However, the dreaded 7 9 family - I have about seven > songs in 7 9 tunings - are in total conflict with the 7 5 and the 7 7 > families. They're just outlaws. They're guaranteed bass clams [laughs], > 'cause the thumb gets used to going automatically into these shapes, and it > has to make this slight adaptation." Mitchell's 7 9 songs include > "Borderline," "Turbulent Indigo," and "How Do You Stop" (Turbulent Indigo), > all of which are in the tuning B F# D# D# F# B. > > + + + + + + + END of excerpt > > > Marian > Vienna ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:39:24 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Family of Tunings What a cool idea...I'll bring my shakers! >>>I am getting so excited about seeing you and Sue and the rest of the gang. I was hoping we could have a VG-8 extravaganza and have as many of them as possible on stage at the same time and do some insane version of Jungle Line or something far out like that.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:39:22 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Family of Tunings I agree, I always seem to break them tuning down as much as tuning up...I try to remember what my friend once advised me which is not to let the string ring as you are tuning as that makes it break easier for some reason.. >>>2. tuning strings down rather than up (although, surprisingly, I have probably broken about as many strings tuning down - it just seems like it ought to be less likely to cause breakage)<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 11:39:20 -0800 From: "Kate Bennett" Subject: RE: Family of Tunings Or sliced bread! Here is the page where you will find it already done for you courtesy of Marian Russell: http://www.jmdl.com/guitar/tuningpat_pattern.cfm >Thanks to Sue's brilliant idea, I decided to reorganize my Joni tablatures by >family of tunings. This saves so much time I would say it's the greatest >thing since mouse traps.<<< ******************************************** Kate Bennett www.katebennett.com sponsored by Polysonics Discover the Indies at Taylor Guitars: http://www.taylorguitars.com/artists/awp/indies/bennett.html ******************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 14:54:07 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Fwd: BOUNCE wanderer@smoe.org: Non-member submission from [Mark Domyancich ] References: Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 09:49:46 -0600 To: "Laurent Olszer" From: Mark Domyancich Subject: RE: Family of Tunings Cc: joni@smoe.org, wanderer@smoe.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" I agree with Marian that DED would be a difficult song to make a tab for considering it's a piano only song, but I don't think it would be impossible to arrange something based on the piano chords. Was Dog Eat Dog really on Misses?!? Mark, who really should finish his Strange Boy tab :) NP-Medeski Martin & Wood, 12/16/00 - Note Blue At 9:22 AM -0500 3/13/02, Susan McNamara wrote: >Mark, Marian, Howard, have you devised a version of Dog Eat Dog yet? - --- end forwarded text ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 23:45:41 +0100 From: "Marian" Subject: Re: Family of Tunings Oh, I do love the VG-8! And it's true! I love sitting down with it and being able to flip from the Black Crow tuning into the tuning for Magdalene Laundries without even thinking twice! Sometimes I sit down with it and flip through all the tunings, playing a little bit of each song along the way. It's really fun! I love the idea of having a mega VG-8 jam on Jungle Line at Jonifest, but I could still participate with an acoustic - don't necessarily need a VG-8. I'm so excited about Jonifest and am still trying to decide whether or not to bring my own acoustic. I'd like to have an acoustic for the whole weekend because it is more portable (doesn't need a power source), so I'm thinking about getting a heavy duty case for mine and checking it with normal luggage on the plane. Alternatively, I could bring the e-guitar and VG-8 as checked luggage, but the downside is that I would always need a power source and speaker. I think you should give a VG-8 workshop at the fest, Michael. I am sure it has capabilities that I haven't yet discovered. It would be fun to learn some new things from you! Love, Marian On Wed, 13 Mar 2002 10:06:49 -0600 Michael Paz wrote: - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Come on now Marian now that you have a VG-8, isn't life just grand?? You don't have to worry about thinking about stuff like this anymore, you just click over to the next patch. I will admit that I love playing a REAL acoustic though and plan to do so at this years JoniFest for a least a couple of tunes (but I plan to recruit a guitar tech to work with me while I am on lol. I am getting so excited about seeing you and Sue and the rest of the gang. I was hoping we could have a VG-8 extravaganza and have as many of them as possible on stage at the same time and do some insane version of Jungle Line or something far out like that. Love Paz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2002 19:43:09 -0800 From: Jim McCarthy Subject: Re: Family of Tunings Greetings fellow Wanderers - This fascinating thread forced me out of 'lurkdom' to make a simple point that maybe most(?) of you have already caught onto. Many years ago when I first ventured into open tunings for Joni's music and others, I discovered that any chord shape played on the highest (treble) five strings in Open G (DGDGBD, or D57543) works just perfectly if played on the lowest (bass) five strings in Open D (DADF#AD, or D75435). Viewed numerically using the Joni "tuning family" notation under discussion now, the reason behind the empirical discovery I made is clear: in open G, the highest five strings are _G7543, while in open D, the lowest five strings are D7543_. Cool, eh? My question for the group (especially for those [you know who you are :-] who blaze trails for the rest of us through the previously uncharted territory of Joni's unique tunings) is to ask whether you already make use of "chord family" relations like this "across the strings" (instead of up and down the strings as in x75435 all being related via a capo) to take what you already know from a treble (bass) string quartet or quintet and apply that knowledge to a related bass (treble) string subset in an unfamiliar tuning ? What other pairs of tunings Joni uses frequently are related like this ? Or do you work from "scratch", so to speak, building up chord shapes in an unfamiliar tuning after first figuring out the notes in the scale(s) ? (Ouch! -my brain hurts just thinking about how laborious that would be, at least for me ... years back, I wrote a computer program to accomplish the labor for me, producing chord shapes for any chord in any tuning as a tool for working from the sheet music guitar chord names [shapes in standard tuning being worthless] into whatever open tuning I wanted to try when learning a song ... I still don't have the "ear" to do this a better way). Thanks in advance for the insights ! Jim McCarthy ____________________ M.Russell@iaea.org wrote: > > there are at least some families that are more related to each other by > the top notes - the best examples being Cold Blue Steel and related songs > (x77543), and Circle Game and related songs (x57543), for which the chord > shapes are almost interchangeable or only have small differences. > ------------------------------ End of wanderer-digest V2 #18 *****************************