From: owner-wanderer-digest@smoe.org (wanderer-digest) To: wanderer-digest@smoe.org Subject: wanderer-digest V2 #14 Reply-To: wanderer@smoe.org Sender: owner-wanderer-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-wanderer-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk wanderer-digest Wednesday, March 6 2002 Volume 02 : Number 014 Today's Subjects: ----------------- RE: Both Sides Now Riff [M.Russell@iaea.org] Both Sides Now Riff? [Lisa and Ken Theriot ] Re: Both Sides Now Riff? [Susan McNamara ] RE: Both Sides Now Riff? [Susan McNamara ] FW: Both Sides Now Riff [M.Russell@iaea.org] RE: Both Sides Now Riff [Lisa and Ken Theriot ] RE: Both Sides Now Riff [Susan McNamara ] Re: Both Sides Now Riff? ["Michael Paz" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:55:01 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: RE: Both Sides Now Riff On Mon, 4 Mar 2002 12:28:07 -0500, Ken Theriot wrote: > Got a question about Both Sides Now. I was trying > to figure out the little riff/bass run she does after > the verses. I am finding it difficult to play that > in DADF#AD (which seems to be the consensus on the > tuning). I can get the first notes in the run to > sound fine as they blend with the other strings, > but for the last note, I have to stretch my pinky > out and hit the 5th fret. Are you talking about the fingerpicking at the end of the chorus? I don't have my guitar with me right now, but it should be approximately: 002100 "I really don't know love: D----0-------0-----------0---0----------------- A------0---0-----------------0----------------- F#-------1-----------1-------1----------------- D-----------------2----------2----------------- A--------------0------------------------------- D---------------------------------------------- at 000000 020100 000000 all ...." etc. or are you talking about the chord changes that go something like: 004304 004300 002102 004304 xxxxx5 004304 002102 002100 xxxxx5 004304 002102 002100 xxxxx5 004304 002102 002100 The note on the fifth fret with your pinky is rather fast and it's easy to slide down into the next chord. Marian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 07:48:02 -0500 From: Lisa and Ken Theriot Subject: Both Sides Now Riff? Hi everyone. I was sooo happy to find this list. Got a question about Both Sides Now. I was trying to figure out the little riff/bass run she does after the verses. I am finding it difficult to play that in DADF#AD (which seems to be the consensus on the tuning). I can get the first notes in the run to sound fine as they blend with the other strings, but for the last note, I have to stretch my pinky out and hit the 5th fret. This seems un-Joni-like, considering the paralysis in her left hand and the fact that most of her chords involve three fingers or less. Any ideas about this? Thanks. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 08:39:12 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: Re: Both Sides Now Riff? Hi Ken: Marian's response is probably right on. I haven't played BSN in a while but I do want to challenge this idea that Joni is not a dexterous guitar player. Have you ever tried to play the Priest? My hands definitely feel paralyzed after attempting that for an hour! In Joni's early days she found open tunings and their chord shapes a little easier to play than the amazingly hard jazz chords it took to get the same sound in concert tuning, but I would say that this doesn't make any of her earlier songs easier to play (for me anyway!) Her guitar playing is quite amazing, in a very subtle way. I never get tired of trying to pick out the little nuances she uses to get a certain sound...like those tenor trumpets she keeps talking about! :-) take care, sue >Hi everyone. I was sooo happy to find this list. > >Got a question about Both Sides Now. I was trying to figure out the little >riff/bass run she does after the verses. I am finding it difficult to play >that in DADF#AD (which seems to be the consensus on the tuning). I can get >the first notes in the run to sound fine as they blend with the other >strings, but for the last note, I have to stretch my pinky out and hit the >5th fret. This seems un-Joni-like, considering the paralysis in her left >hand and the fact that most of her chords involve three fingers or less. >Any ideas about this? > >Thanks. > >Ken - -- Susan McNamara Assistant to the Dean of Students Cornell University 401 Willard Straight Hall Ithaca, NY 14853 Voice: (607) 255-1115 FAX: (607) 255-8082 E-Mail:sem8@cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 09:18:28 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: Both Sides Now Riff? Well, you are probably right. I haven't played BSN in a while so maybe I'll string it up tonight and check it out. I've been so lazy lately with playing guitar... I've been learning a lot of Nick Drake stuff, which also goes along the Achem's razor theory...god it sounds so hard but after you figure it out it's logically simple. cool. discovering these tunings is such a joy. take care, sue >Sue, > >Not sure what you mean about Marian's response. She asked me if I meant >one part of the song, and I replied that that wasn't the part of the song I >was referring to. I did not mean to imply that Joni was not skilled or >dexterous. It just seemed to me that there might be another way to play it >that I was missing. In my experience with figuring out guitar parts, it >seems Achem's Razor usually applies. If it seems too hard it probably >isn't right. That doesn't mean the player isn't doing something skilled, >only that I think I may not have figured it out right. I have had this >feeling ever since I was a kid and learned "Blackbird" by the Beatles. > When I first played it for someone who was a better guitarist than I, he >laughed at all the huge fret-gapping I was doing with my monster fingers >(I've got HUGE hands). When he played it, it was sooo much easier. > Additionally, I spent a great deal of my young life trying to learn "The >Wedding Song," by Paul Stukey. When I had come as close as possible using >standard tuning, I settled for a less-than perfect version. Years later I >saw a TV special with him playing it and I screamed, "AHHHHH, it is in a >tuning!" Luckily we were taping it and I was able to figure it >out...finally! A few years ago, I was playing for a friend's wedding, and >another guy in the wedding said he was amazed at how little work I seemed >to be doing to play the song. He also had figured it out in standard >tuning, but was doing an incredible amount of work to make the right notes >happen. So that is all I am asking. I want to see what others are doing >on that part...that bass run. > >Ken > >-----Original Message----- >From: Susan McNamara [SMTP:sem8@cornell.edu] >Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 8:39 AM >To: Lisa and Ken Theriot; wanderer@smoe.org >Subject: Re: Both Sides Now Riff? > >Hi Ken: > >Marian's response is probably right on. I haven't played BSN in a >while but I do want to challenge this idea that Joni is not a >dexterous guitar player. Have you ever tried to play the Priest? My >hands definitely feel paralyzed after attempting that for an hour! >In Joni's early days she found open tunings and their chord shapes a >little easier to play than the amazingly hard jazz chords it took to >get the same sound in concert tuning, but I would say that this >doesn't make any of her earlier songs easier to play (for me anyway!) >Her guitar playing is quite amazing, in a very subtle way. I never >get tired of trying to pick out the little nuances she uses to get a >certain sound...like those tenor trumpets she keeps talking about! >:-) > >take care, sue > >>Hi everyone. I was sooo happy to find this list. >> >>Got a question about Both Sides Now. I was trying to figure out the little >>riff/bass run she does after the verses. I am finding it difficult to play >>that in DADF#AD (which seems to be the consensus on the tuning). I can get >>the first notes in the run to sound fine as they blend with the other >>strings, but for the last note, I have to stretch my pinky out and hit the >>5th fret. This seems un-Joni-like, considering the paralysis in her left >>hand and the fact that most of her chords involve three fingers or less. >>Any ideas about this? >> >>Thanks. >> >>Ken > > >-- > >Susan McNamara >Assistant to the Dean of Students >Cornell University >401 Willard Straight Hall >Ithaca, NY 14853 >Voice: (607) 255-1115 >FAX: (607) 255-8082 >E-Mail:sem8@cornell.edu > - -- Susan McNamara Assistant to the Dean of Students Cornell University 401 Willard Straight Hall Ithaca, NY 14853 Voice: (607) 255-1115 FAX: (607) 255-8082 E-Mail:sem8@cornell.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 15:37:15 +0100 From: M.Russell@iaea.org Subject: FW: Both Sides Now Riff I just realized Ken only sent this reply (see below) to me - not to the whole wanderer list, so I am forwarding it. I think the bass riff you are interested in, Ken, is described in the transcription in JMDL by Steve DiBartola as: A7sus4 riff: D------------------ A--0--------------- F#-1--------------- D--2--0------------ A--0----3-2-0------ D------------3-0--- This is what I recall playing in the bass in this song just before the chorus. I don't recall using any notes on the 5th fret for that riff. Are you talking about some other riff? Marian - -----Original Message----- From: Raven Boy Music [mailto:kentheriot@ravenboymusic.com] Sent: Tuesday, 05 March, 2002 13:54 To: RUSSELL, Marian Subject: Re: Both Sides Now Riff Actually I am referring to the 1-2-3-4 bass run she does after all the parts that sound like...."I've looked at clouds that way...." It's one of those bass runs that includes the other strings on the guitar as well. Also, since I am new to the list, I wodered if anyone could tell me how to make the ascii fret board. Or is it just one of those things I have to construct every time? thanks. Ken ps - I seem to be signed up for the list on 2 e-mail accounts. I will cancel this one and just be "lnktheriot@cox.net from now on. - -K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:19:00 -0500 From: Lisa and Ken Theriot Subject: RE: Both Sides Now Riff Wow! When I tried that on my guitar I thought it was wrong, but when I looped that bit on my computer, Lisa (my wife) said "that's right!" As I listened again, I had to agree. My brain filled in a B note ("4" on the low D string at capo 4) for that note based on what I expected to hear, when in reality it was an A, the "3" as depicted. Fascinating how brains/paradigms affect our judgement. Thanks. Ken ps, is there any way to keep from getting 2 copies of each reply to the list? I guess it is set up to go direct to the poster AND to the list. I actively removed the direct address in this post, so that it should go only to the list. - -K pps - I am still wondering about the ascii fret board tab format. Is there a trick to it? Do you save that as a text file and just copy/paste when transcribing? I wonder if we might not venture into sharing mp3 files as well. I may try attaching mp3 clips of my try at a tab just to let folks hear if what I am doing is what Joni is doing. - -K - -----Original Message----- From: M.Russell@iaea.org [SMTP:M.Russell@iaea.org] Sent: Tuesday, March 05, 2002 9:37 AM To: wanderer@smoe.org Subject: FW: Both Sides Now Riff I just realized Ken only sent this reply (see below) to me - not to the whole wanderer list, so I am forwarding it. I think the bass riff you are interested in, Ken, is described in the transcription in JMDL by Steve DiBartola as: A7sus4 riff: D------------------ A--0--------------- F#-1--------------- D--2--0------------ A--0----3-2-0------ D------------3-0--- This is what I recall playing in the bass in this song just before the chorus. I don't recall using any notes on the 5th fret for that riff. Are you talking about some other riff? Marian - -----Original Message----- From: Raven Boy Music [mailto:kentheriot@ravenboymusic.com] Sent: Tuesday, 05 March, 2002 13:54 To: RUSSELL, Marian Subject: Re: Both Sides Now Riff Actually I am referring to the 1-2-3-4 bass run she does after all the parts that sound like...."I've looked at clouds that way...." It's one of those bass runs that includes the other strings on the guitar as well. Also, since I am new to the list, I wodered if anyone could tell me how to make the ascii fret board. Or is it just one of those things I have to construct every time? thanks. Ken ps - I seem to be signed up for the list on 2 e-mail accounts. I will cancel this one and just be "lnktheriot@cox.net from now on. - -K ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:30:20 -0500 From: Susan McNamara Subject: RE: Both Sides Now Riff >Fascinating how >brains/paradigms affect our judgement. Thanks. > >Ken Glad that worked out! I know I've obsessed about tabs for weeks on end and I know for sure it impairs my judgment! I forget to eat, too!! :-) >ps, is there any way to keep from getting 2 copies of each reply to the >list? I guess it is set up to go direct to the poster AND to the list. I >actively removed the direct address in this post, so that it should go only >to the list. > >-K When you hit reply it goes back to the original poster not the list. I usually send a reply to the poster and the list so the person knows I replied to him right away (since they might be on digest). This is my preference but you may do it differently. >pps - I am still wondering about the ascii fret board tab format. Is there >a trick to it? Do you save that as a text file and just copy/paste when >transcribing? I just copy and paste, but I think it's important to keep the font in courier 10 so that things line up right. It's insanely tedious but goes along with my obsessiveness (see above thing about not eating.) >I wonder if we might not venture into sharing mp3 files as >well. I may try attaching mp3 clips of my try at a tab just to let folks >hear if what I am doing is what Joni is doing. > >-K > I don't think you can send attachments to the list but if you would like me to post your mp3s on the Wanderer website, I think I can do that. http://www.jmdl.com/wanderer still hopelessly under construction. I wish I was as obsessive about html as I was tab. take care, sue - -- "Heart and humor and humility will lighten up your heavy load ... " - Joni Mitchell ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 Mar 2002 10:44:55 -0600 From: "Michael Paz" Subject: Re: Both Sides Now Riff? Sue I agree with this. I have a really hard time playing alot of the earlier stuff more than say from Court and Spark on. Alot of the earlier stuff seems to have smaller shaped chords and more picking and nuances that are harder for me to read in the tabs (on the fly as it were). Great topic! Paz (who is still offline at home please tell the list I haven't bailed again) From: "Susan McNamara" > Hi Ken: > > Marian's response is probably right on. I haven't played BSN in a > while but I do want to challenge this idea that Joni is not a > dexterous guitar player. Have you ever tried to play the Priest? My > hands definitely feel paralyzed after attempting that for an hour! > In Joni's early days she found open tunings and their chord shapes a > little easier to play than the amazingly hard jazz chords it took to > get the same sound in concert tuning, but I would say that this > doesn't make any of her earlier songs easier to play (for me anyway!) > Her guitar playing is quite amazing, in a very subtle way. I never > get tired of trying to pick out the little nuances she uses to get a > certain sound...like those tenor trumpets she keeps talking about! > :-) > > take care, sue > > >Hi everyone. I was sooo happy to find this list. > > > >Got a question about Both Sides Now. I was trying to figure out the little > >riff/bass run she does after the verses. I am finding it difficult to play > >that in DADF#AD (which seems to be the consensus on the tuning). I can get > >the first notes in the run to sound fine as they blend with the other > >strings, but for the last note, I have to stretch my pinky out and hit the > >5th fret. This seems un-Joni-like, considering the paralysis in her left > >hand and the fact that most of her chords involve three fingers or less. > >Any ideas about this? > > > >Thanks. ------------------------------ End of wanderer-digest V2 #14 *****************************