From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V7 #53 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Thursday, March 11 2004 Volume 07 : Number 053 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [support-system] WCI is/was #1 on Top 40 Adult Recurrents ["Paul Spinks" ] Re: [support-system] WCI is/was #1 on Top 40 Adult Recurrents [Emil Breto] [support-system] RE: support-system-digest V7 #51 ["Michael Nordenberg" <] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 23:58:05 -0000 From: "Paul Spinks" Subject: [support-system] WCI is/was #1 on Top 40 Adult Recurrents Can anyone answer some questions related to Billboard, which I'm not very familiar with... 1. According to the Billboard info accessible from the Liz Phair page at www.allmusic.com, WCI reached (at some unspecified time) a highest position of #1 on the "Top 40 Adult Recurrents" list (congratulations, Liz!). Now, can anyone explain to me what that means? 2. I was comparing Liz's commercial success against her most obvious UK counterpart, PJ Harvey. Liz comes out well ahead on Billboard 200 chart ratings (27th, 27th, 35th and EIG's 196th(!), against Polly Jean's 40th, 42nd, 54th and 158th), but she seems well behind on album sales (I read that Polly Jean's latest sold >3 million). I can't easily explain how Liz can achieve higher chart ratings but lower sales, unless Billboard reflects mainly US (not global) sales. Can anyone tell me what Billboard is based on? 3. Anyone know of a web resource listing the number of albums sold by various artists? - --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.614 / Virus Database: 393 - Release Date: 05/03/2004 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 10 Mar 2004 18:37:13 -0800 (PST) From: Emil Breton Subject: Re: [support-system] WCI is/was #1 on Top 40 Adult Recurrents I think the Billboard charts reflect U.S. sales, but god knows I'm not any kind of authority on that. However, I do know PJ Harvey's sales definitely exceed Liz's overall; she has a much larger international following, and regularly hits many European markets when she tours. Fuckin' RAWK!, Emil __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Search - Find what youre looking for faster http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Mar 2004 03:18:39 +0000 From: "Michael Nordenberg" Subject: [support-system] RE: support-system-digest V7 #51 Hi Everyone, I am probably the worst s-s-d lurker. I have been a member, in some form or another, since around '94-'95(I think) and have not ever posted. Why am I doing it now? Well I have had nothing to do (I had to take the semester off because of mono) but listen to Liz, surrounded by other music I dig, think about it and why I like it, write, make art, and wish I played the Guitar. Other then that I also feel that my desire to post results from comments on Courtney Love's album- whether they were here on the digest or in articles I have read. But I will get to Courtney a little later. After listening to Liz (she never stays out of my cd player longer then four or five days) and all of this other great music- I think I realized why I was so unsatisfied by her new album. I have enjoyed it, and blindly defended it, but its a lot like eating candy corn- when your body really needs roast beef or humus on a pita. Empty calories? After waiting so long its like having your best friend, who happens to be a chef, give you a store-bought cake on your birthday. Anyway, my biggest problem with it was how little she had to do in creating it- and how uncreative it ultimately was. I remember some folks having problems with White Chocolate Space Egg because she didn't make all of the music. But with this album, probably because we were either blindly defending it or pointlessly shooting down just to do so, I heard very little complaints about how she didn't-_really_ write the songs- either in terms of lyrics or the music. So whether or not the new cd is good or bad, it isn't (or at least it doesn't come across to me) as being hers. It might as well have Liz Yorn or Matrix phair written on the cover- with one of those pictures people make when they want to see what their babies will look like with someone they like. I was listening to May Queen and was really struck by how smart she is- its like pop-music is so bad(or good) because its so vague; radio music only talks about being in love, getting hurt, and being awesome. Liz is so brilliant because she could be singing to anyone about any number of things and its still so honest- and I am able to believe her fully in almost any layer of her songs. With May Queen in particular- I kept seeing this sassy-half-pouted-beauty turning the table on someone who questions her art or herself( I am thinking on both ends of the spectrum: Magazines calling her a slut and that horrible Playboy interview.) "I spy a May Queen" or " I see someone who thinks they're better than me" she's talking to this guy who is sleeping with all of these women( the changing of the majesty's guard) and yet questions her like she is a mindless whore- any way I think its genius and not even on my top favorite Liz songs list. I thought with WCSE that her not writing the music but the crafting the lyrics was playfully creative- like writing in form verse except maybe more playful- she came up with something she wouldn't have otherwise- the cold, empty-eyed stare and demand of WCSE, or the jaunty-good-time-finger-waggin' of Baby Got Going. My point is this album reduced Liz Phair to her least creative state- writing songs with rockstar wannabes, to someone else's hooks, riffs, and beats. In that state, the Liz Phair( of Liz Phair) can't hold a candle or even the tiniest of tiny match-sticks to the Liz Phair represented in her other three albums. I guess this is where Courtney Love and her new album come in(almost), in blindly-defending Liz's album- one of the biggest arguments the supporters made against everything was the overall tone and the overall expression of what the song communicated canceled out anything that detracted from it. But where is the brilliance in fucking a younger guy- if there isn't detail or any sort of emotional complexity- its fun, but who really cares, did we really start listening to Liz because of her music's meaningless fun. I wouldn't think so- it was the expression and tone- in songs like: Glory, Mesmerizing, Shatter, Strangeloop, Chopsticks, Go West, Whip-smart, Crater Lake, Perfect World, Love is Nothing, Go On Ahead, Ride and Fantasize--that make her fun, and challenging, and easy and so rewarding. I know I just listed quite a bit but it was to emphasize that on the new album only Red Light Fever does it for me- and even though I love the song its still kind of like eating cake for dinner--- and Firewalker of course but I don't think it really counts. The point is Liz could make cradle-robbing fucking brilliant but she doesn't- and she really doesn't even come close.I mean someone who could make a song like Nashville( of the the best songs ever in my opinion) is able to make a lifetime of good songs, or at least a lot more. But its barely her voice that sings on the album- its her with a loud chorus of other music-biz people, creating a shell of a song that she got to pick the color of, I mean who really cares if its pink or green? Now finally to Courtney Love's album- I really think its pretty grade A work ( maybe B+) even though she worked with other people- I believe tone and expressions of these songs- are not only identifiably Courtney's- but they are so sad, and beautiful, rough, shell-shocking, but still so vulnerable- even in their occasional arrogance. I may not agree with some lyrical choices, and it took a little while to get into the songs, but since when shouldn't a song have some fight in it-- how else can there be a reward. "Sunset Strip" is just too beautiful after I got into it- I cried hearing it- and I am not really a crier if Steel Magnolias, or Pretty Woman, isn't involved. And I thought it was so classic that the first single was Mono because Mononucleosis has halted my life and kept me home in Pittsburgh(though I am better now.) Im sorry for the length of this post- I suppose I am such a lurker here because I knew if I started talking I would never shut up and miss my friends a lot. But this response has been boiling up in me for a while, Liz Phair (either good or bad) has been some I looked up to since I was ten and my sister put her on a mix-tape for Christmas. As a gay male, she was one of the only people talking to me in a lot of ways. Until I was sixteen she was one of the only people who gave me advice, and a sort of long-distance camaraderie- a simpatico that I still haven't felt with another artist of any media, or medium. When my secret boyfriend broke my heart, and with my experiences with a lot of guys, she was the one helped me walk those meek and wounded steps! And I love her for it, wholeheartedly, I will be a fan of hers for life and I will find something to appreciate no matter what she does(Arbitrarily or not). But I am so thirsty for the wisdom, the rough and gentle force( if it were chinese food it would be something sweet n' sour) of her other songs- instead its me searching for the possibility of wisdom and intelligence- even the significance- of her latest songs. Instead of her making me work to understand her songs- and by extension myself, she is making me work to justify her art- extraordinary or less than ordinary(ha). But that's just my opinion, and my rant, thank you for reading( I hope you could follow) and thank you all so much for the years of thoughtful insights and witty comments- I truly have appreciated them. Best to all, Michael N. ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V7 #53 ***********************************