From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #332 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Monday, December 15 2003 Volume 06 : Number 332 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [support-system] My Top 10 [YuriG2@aol.com] Re: [support-system] Oh Dana... [Emil Breton ] [support-system] Another Top (7) [John-Paul Finger ] [support-system] what's my motivation? ["dana p." Subject: Re: [support-system] Oh Dana... Just as it's baffling to, say, Paul Spinks (sorry if I'm confusing you with someone else) how so many of us don't like LD, it's baffling to me how SO MANY folks out there -- and not just from this mailing list, but casual fans, rock critics (Christgau, even!), etc. -- don't seem to notice, or care at all, about the presentation of the ideas expressed on the album "Liz Phair". It's no great feat just to tell it like it is, or exploit yourself, or expose your weaknesses, or whatever. Not that there's anything wrong with that -- Liz did all those things before, but she did them *with style*. For me, her pre-makeover output was special because of the form, not the content. That's what it comes down to. Like I said, listening to a recent concert bootleg makes the disparity all the more apparent: first Liz plays "Stratford-on-Guy", then the band immediately launches into "Little Digger", the lyrical triteness of of which -- in addition to the melodic unadventurousness -- is unambiguous and in-your-face. Can I tell a little story, real quick? When I was 15, I heard "Supernova" and thought I was such a hep cat for digging such far-out shit. "Whoa!" I thought to myself, "how very cutting-edge! What a coup this is for me!" Then I bought Whip-smart, and I didn't know what to do. Because, you know, the rest of the album truly is *out there*. It was like going through training, listening to this album, getting used to the weird structures, the scaled-down production, the strange metaphors and ambiguities -- all of which were new and challenging to the uninitiated, MTV-watching, Entertainment Weekly-devouring teenager I was. But eventually I learned it, loved it, and lived it. My whole musical perspective changed. Because of Liz Phair, I learned how far songwriting can take an audience if the performer has fucked with the rules or ignored them altogether. It changed my life, it did! Here I am, 9 years later, and listening to this new album is like going back to 2nd grade, sitting through a long-division lesson, after I've already been taught Advanced Calculus. That sounds so arrogant, I know, and I don't mean to suggest that I've somehow accomplished something great, or done anything for humanity, simply by being a Liz Phair fan. I just mean that Liz's fanbase is too smart for this album. Come ON! She didn't make it for us; she knew we'd know better. It's meant to reach *the people*, and she never expected her existing fanbase to like the album much at all (as outlined in her "you don't have cancer" letter to Ken Lee), so it shouldn't come as a surprise that so many of us don't like it, not even Liz's personal favorite song on it. So, yeah. I'm basically just copying what a lot of other folks have said a hundred times, but I've added fins to lower wind resistance, and these racing stripes I feel are pretty sharp. - -Emil DSotM wrote: > And yes it does make a difference in your being able > to relate and identify > with Little Digger if you are a parent. Just as any > experience shared > generally brings people together, its no different > listening to this song. > I'm not saying you can't if you aren't a parent , > but it helps tremendously. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 12:56:33 -0600 From: John-Paul Finger Subject: [support-system] Another Top (7) Yes these top lists are a bit pretentious, but they're one of my favorite parts of this list that I look forward to every year. Of course everyone fills their list with "unique" bands that give them "indie-cred", but where else would I hear about these things? I've lost touch with new music in the last year (as you'll see in my short list) so I'm relying on the top tens of this year to help me find new material to listen to. Spending almost 6 months in Europe (part traveling, part for work) really kept me out of the loop on everything except for the most pop of pop music. So yeah, here are my 7 favorites of this year (in no particular order): The Mars Volta - De-loused in the Comatorium. Wow, what an album. I liked At The Drive In but never got around to being a huge fan. Sparta blew me away last year so its no surprise that TMV did the same this year. Liz Phair - Liz Phair. Like Dan, it spent enough time in my cd-players to merit a showing here. I enjoyed the album and all of its little addons (Insanity, Comeandgetit, etc) and am happy to see Liz making an even bigger impact a decade later. The live shows were also a high-point. Placebo - Sleeping with Ghosts. I bought this CD in France for my commute to work so I listened to it every day for at least a month and it never got old. "English Summer Rain" is almost perfect. Type O Negative - Life is Killing Me. "(We Were) Electrocute" is enough to put this CD on my list, so it doesn't hurt that the rest of the album is great. Where else would I sing along with a song about having a sex-change operation? The White Stripes - Elephant. Honestly, in a different year this possibly wouldn't have made my list, but it is a solid record that deserves some praise in today's climate. The videos were also impressive to the point that I didn't mind seeing them all the time on MTV and MTV Europe. Dream Theater - Train of Thought. It just came out at the beginning of November and it usually takes me a while to get into a new Dream Theater CD (though its always worth it) but this CD was instantly put into heavy rotation around me. DT is a victim of the "every other album" pattern as their last album was entirely too preachy and pretentious. This album is simply solid Metal/Prog rock that you either love your you hate. Outkast - The Love Below/Speakerboxxx. Can Outkast do any wrong? I bought Aquemini a few years ago on a friend's recommendation and have been hooked every since. These guys are pure genius. Dissapointments: Radiohead - Hail to the Thief. I really wanted to like this album, but its just the same old stale Radiohead sound. Maybe I just don't "get it," but there was nothing new or exciting about this. If I want to fall asleep I'll drink a beer. Dido - Life for Rent. Speaking of sleeping, this album was a yawn except for the first single. I liked "White Flag" (and seeing David Boreanez in a video is enough to get some attention) and I loved "No Angel" but every track on this has the same tired electronic drum machine 'beat' with little variance at all. I guess the producer decided on easy listening, but I think hes wrong. And while we're being pretentious, how did I miss Stiff Little Fingers until this year? These guys are incredible. The usual comparison to the Clash but from Ireland is quasi-accurate, but SLF should be seen as more than that. If you're a Clash fan and haven't heard them, buy any of their CDs today. John-Paul Austin, TX NP: Cake - Fashion Nugget ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 14:09:34 -0800 From: "dana p." Subject: [support-system] what's my motivation? > And yes it does make a difference in your being able to relate and identify > with Little Digger if you are a parent. Just as any experience shared > generally brings people together, its no different listening to this song. > I'm not saying you can't if you aren't a parent , but it helps tremendously. > i thoroughly and respectfully disagree. and sorry to bust your theory, but i am completely prozac-free.... for one thing, i think "whipsmart" is a really insightful and unique take on the parent/child dynamic. and she wrote that before she ever had kids. so, it's possible. i hear it (as a nonparent) and can still really appreciate the depth and insight of the message. just to keep it in the realm of stuff she's written, ok? what's being said by those questioning "little digger" is that the whole issue more than likely deseves better than a lame couplet as the chorus, for starters. no one's questioning her intentions at all. what's being questioned is the reasoning that says just because it's about a really tough subject that, artistically, "hey, whatever.... she tried and that's the important thing." 'cause it sure IS one of those subjects that gets people all emotional and riled up--there's no denying it. so, as with "H.W.C.," but for a much different reason, what's this doing here? she had to sorta dumb it down.... and why? to add some "emotional resonance" or "depth," or something, to the entire CD? but, like i said, this whole CD is a collection of commodified ideas; they're not supposed to be all that deep or insightful. it would be too much. i wish she woulda spent a little more time on it and included it with the EP. but that's just me. obviously, i don't want to get into this big thing of comparing lives, because--if you read it again--that is not my message at all. and i certainly don't wanna raise a shitstorm and hurt people's feelings over a song (!!!?), but when i'm reading these comments discussing the criteria to assess its artistic merits, i'm going, "hey, wait a minute here...." as many have already said, the formal elements of this song *don't require* a deep assessment; there's nothing to "not get." she's as much an observer of the situation as anyone.... she's conveying a concern--as an observer. listen to it again if you don't believe me. IF you're in a similar situation, sure, the song allows for that to be added as another layer, thus personalizing your experience of it. but people are gonna do that anyway, and, as written, it isn't necessary. she's not putting anyone in that place of soul-shattering heartbreak via song structure and chord progressions as in, say, "shatter." and, lyrically, she's not writing "in code" anymore. the fact that someone should have to bring all this stuff TO IT to fully get it... that's the crux of the matter. and *that's* why people bring up the words "lazy" and "trite." just so you know.... i'll be the first to admit that the "if you don't have kids, you don't get it" thing really raises my hackles. 'cause, to me, that IS indeed getting into comparing lives, using kids as a socially acknowledged totem for your position on the "sobering life experiences" grid. it raises my hackles because every one of us is our parents' child. we all have a full and complete understanding of all that can go wrong, divorce or no divorce. i happen to come from a family where my parents probably SHOULD'VE been.... and even in the "best" of circumstances, there's alot that can go wrong. and, you know what? *it will.* it does. that is a fact. i don't think my, or anyone else's, ability to "get" or "fully appreciate" this song is impaired in any way solely because at this point i don't have children myself. that doesn't make any sense. plus, this is getting into the whole attitude that those of us sans kids are living lives of endless bacchanalia bulging with puerile irresponsibility and meaninglessness. oh my god, do i ever i hate that.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 14 Dec 2003 19:37:47 -0800 (PST) From: Brett Carter Subject: [support-system] my top listens i never ever post, but here's mine for the year (in no particular order): lost in translation soundtrack - -the air track alone is worth the price of the cd fever to tell by yeah yeah yeahs liz phair + the EP elephant by the white stripes chutes too narrow by the shins quixotic by martina topley-bird - -i think that it's still only available as an import, but well worth it avenue q (original cast recording) - -some of the funniest songs i've ever heard the electric version by the new pornographers - -not as good as 'mass romantic' but so close thickfreakness by the black keys you are free by cat power ha ha sound by broadcast - -trish keenan has the best voice. period. failer by kathleen edwards yours, mine and ours by the pernice brothers the wilco EP brett (the other one) ===== "The feeling that someone really gets you/Is something that no one should object to" - -Jon Brion, "Here We Go" From The Desk Of Toto...... Dorothy: "Hate oz...took the shoes....find your own dam way home!" __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? New Yahoo! Photos - easier uploading and sharing. http://photos.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 15 Dec 2003 05:05:28 -0000 From: "Paul Spinks" Subject: [support-system] RE: i left the cake out in the rain I've never experienced "deep existential panic", so I'm afraid I didn't understand the "sex and the city" quote. I assume it is a popular show in the USA, so not to be confused with real life. It's not a scenario I can relate to. In the sense that the characters seem totally "me"-centric, it doesn't even seem relevant to the debate on LD, a song which covers (amongst other things) relationships. At least, it doesn't seem relevant to my position on the song - perhaps we ARE getting different things from it after all? But let's agree to disagree. Fine, some people don't like the song or the album. I like the song at least. But, hey, when did anyone change their mind about music by listening to contrary views? I should remember this from college days. I think this thread is done. I'm happy to continue by email if anyone wants to. Paul > From: "dana p." > Subject: [support-system] i left the cake out in the rain.... > > oh, this "little digger" argument.... all i can really do is > comment on the comments. and, i have to say, i'm gonna side with > those who are nauseated/unimpressed by the trite > sentimentality--'cause that's the kinda gal i am. see, i love > incisive interps that point to something being "lazy, mawkish, > and cloying"--'cause it's usually totally true. and considering > the rest of the fare on LP, i expect nothing more than, well, > lazy, mawkish, and cloying. as far as i'm concerned, this CD > should be called "next!" or "three-hour layover." or, ha ha, how > 'bout "kick me"? > > anyway, back to these comments. 'cause a few things i'm reading > really bug me. 'cause here's the thing: having good, noble > intentions, as far as disclosing the deep stuff to an audience, > does not a brilliant song make. or even a good one. so, umm, > no.... you know better than that and so do i. and please, please, > please don't bring up that "if you don't have kids, you just > don't get it" stuff. seriously, just stop it. because that is not > the answer. we childless folk--we GET it.... what's to not get? > deep existential panic is everywhere all the time. facing the > fact that you're "in something you can't get out of" (which is > the real issue, by the way)-- we ALL do it. one way or another, > we're *all* in it; we're all laying a minefield of "unintended > consequences." and as far as the supposed profundity regarding > the kid thing goes, i'm gonna quote a couple lines from "sex and > the city"-- the time when steve goes to pick brady up from > miranda, doesn't really want to, and finally ! > sheepishly admits "... i'm afraid i'm gonna kill the baby." and > miranda shoots back, "steve, we're BOTH afraid we're gonna kill > the baby...." and that's just it--how can you NOT be afraid > you're gonna kill the baby?? it's *completely unnatural* to not > be afraid of that.... so, as far as i'm concerned, the subject > matter really isn't all that intense or profound; what's more, > and what probably exacerbates the problem, is that the sentiments > and concerns apparently aren't expressed all that well. look, > this whole record is a collection of watered-down, commodified > ideas. that's it. whatever. like i said, "next!!" > > hey, i'm only doing what's being asked of me.... the "summer > shower" is long gone. ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #332 ************************************