From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #324 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Sunday, December 7 2003 Volume 06 : Number 324 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [support-system] LD ["sandra" ] [support-system] digging deeper [Catherine Molanphy ] Re: [support-system] RE: Little Digger ["Jim" ] [support-system] LLLLLLLLittle Digger [Dan MacDonald ] [support-system] more Liz articles [Kenneth Lee ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 00:39:55 -0600 From: "sandra" Subject: [support-system] LD > *Consensus* is exactly what's missing on that song. Many people, here on > this list and "out there" in the world cite it as their fave song on the new > album. Others (me included), not so much. It would take me a few paragraphs > to tell you why... I actually think it's sort of simple. If you're a parent, you get it. If you're not, you might get it, but you might not. Regardless of the content of the song, it's unfathomable to me how people can't see the symbolism and subtlety and quiet pain that makes this a quintessential Liz song that would have been at home on Guyville. From "Little digger" -- which has at least a double, quite possibly a triple, meaning -- all the way through to the end. It's a short, concise, succinct scene. I'd rival it with Divorce Song in the lyrical type of writing-about-everyday-things song that it is. Which leads me to the "parent" theory. If you don't get the content, you don't get it. "I hope you can [understand]" is in no way simplistic. How many adults are still messed up by their own parents' divorce? It's not something you automatically understand. I'll post about the Liz show soon, bare breast and all. I can't seem to find the time. Jeremy, wtf. Wrong forum. Go get some air or something. sandra ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 02:52:51 -0500 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: [support-system] digging deeper > From: "sandra" I had written: >> *Consensus* is exactly what's missing on that song. Many people, here on this >> list and "out there" in the world cite it as their fave song on the new >> album. Others (me included), not so much. It would take me a few paragraphs >> to tell you why... > > I actually think it's sort of simple. My last sentence should have been clearer... I meant that it would take me a while to explain why *I* don't like the song, not why there's such a division of opinions. But yeah, it probably would've taken me a while to explain *that* too... > If you're a parent, you get it. > > If you're not, you might get it, but you might not. Sandra: I can't argue against your statement with much authority as I'm not a parent. But I sense that what you've said is not really on the mark... I guess I'd need a parent to back me up. But here's my feeling: I don't feel that songs are for "getting" or "not getting"... unless I'm misundertanding your use of the word get. I suppose "get" can mean "understand", or it can also mean "receive on an emotional level". If we're talking about the first sense, I definitely "get" Little Digger, even without having procreated. I get it and I still don't like it. If we're talking about my second sense of "get", then I'll grant you that it probably doesn't tug at those feelings as strongly as they may tug at a parent's, but I think I do *feel* to a certain extent the way it's supposed to make me feel. The first few times I heard the line "my mother is mine" I got some twinges. But... I also sometimes get blurry eyed at the end of Titanic or get chills when I watch long distance telephone commercials... it's kind of like how watching a flicker of porn will make your privates twitch. A calculated stimulus CAN produce a spiritually empty emotional response. That doesn't make it art. Yeah, a harsh comparison but don't bristle quite yet... I was just trying to make the distinction between FEELING and FEELING. Little Digger makes me feel nothing deep down... and I think even if I were a parent I would resent having my emotions manipulated in that way, when there's so little of value behind it. [Catherine, what do you mean no value behind it? That's stupid to make value judgements about something so subjective as art.] Yeah yeah, maybe so, but here's my "evidence": 1) The whole conceit of the song is that it's being told partially from the point of view of the child. In my little old opinion, this NEVER works. There's a reason why children don't remember much before five-years... the mind of a young child is probably stranger and more glorious than we could POSSIBLY conceive of. She's just projecting a combination of dime-store psychology and her own feelings of guilt onto her child's supposed "thoughts". And, in my opinion, parents are the WORST interpreters of their own children's inner workings... because their lives are so intertwined with the child's, they're unable to get the necessary distance to have any real clarity. Anyway, that's where I feel a lot of the song's essential emptiness is derived... the presumption that any real human being's emotions are being portrayed is a false one. 2) Like Emil, I find the melody to be *paricularly* uninspired, and the draggy tempo doesn't help. Even with those lyrics I think I could get into it if she had put more oomph into the tune, but it just leaves me dead. And after all, these aren't poems, they're bleedin' SONGS. There's a reason I'm much more of a music buff than a literary one... music makes me feel more. Even if the lyrics were T.S.Eliot-calibre I'd be disappointed if it had a crap accompaniment. 3) But back to those lyrics: "I've done the damage / the damage is done / I pray to God that I'm the damaged one." I *still* groan inwardly every time I hear those words... they sound like they could've come straight out of a testimonial in Woman's World Weekly or one of those new-fangled Hallmark Cards for all occasions. [Ease up on the snark, Catherine... say exactly what is WRONG with that line, huh?] Gosh, how does one describe "trite"? Fuckin'-A, they're just not POETIC. No, I'm not contradicting myself... Even though the tune needs to kick ass too, music lyrics should NOT be prose, and these are prose. The repetition of "damage" clunks like bricks... both the assonance *and* the consonance on that word are mediocre and therefore not worthy of repetition. She starts out with a halfway decent metaphor in "little digger" and then wimps out by using abstract concept words like "damage" and "grown-up complications". Bad, Liz! You know better than that... you don't TELL in songs, you SHOW. We should FEEL the damage, not hear about it. We should FEEL the complication. OH! And that's a great segueway into why the comarison of Little Digger to "Divorce Song" is so grotesque in my opinion: in Divorce Song, she SHOWED us. "And it's true that I stole your lighter / and it's also true that I lost the map." Huh? Yeah, man! Guilt!!!! Complication!! Strife!! Pettiness!! Dude, she didn't have to say those words, she didn't have to tell us how to feel, she just SHOWED us what was going on and we FELT it right along with her. Just IMAGINE if she'd eschewed that lyric for "All we do is fight about petty things / I know there's more to our relationship than that..." (okay, but in a rhyming way) IMO, something like that would have been the value equivalent, the "Divorce Song" version of "I've done the damage... etc. etc." No, she SHOWED us... THAT's brilliant songwriting... and that's what's NOT in Little Digger (in my opinion). sandra said: > Regardless of the content of the song, it's unfathomable to me how people > can't see the symbolism and subtlety and quiet pain that makes this a > quintessential Liz song that would have been at home on Guyville. And I feel the same bewilderment going the other way... where you see subtlety, I see bricks (or sledgehammers? ;^) Where you see quiet pain, I see maudlin, forced sentimentality. The symbol (singular, mind you) was half-assed and never quite made its way into the spirit of the song... But hey... unfathomability is what others' tastes are all about. Not to compare, but I don't get opera or Kid Rock either. I hope some of this was coherent and didn't come off overly jackassy... if it did, I apologize in advance for hurting anyone's feelings. - --Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 02:52:51 -0500 From: "Jim" Subject: Re: [support-system] RE: Little Digger Well said Paul. That's an angle that I neglected to mention. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Spinks To: support-system@smoe.org Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 1:01 AM Subject: [support-system] RE: Little Digger > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:10:02 -0500 > From: "WaverRider" > Subject: [support-system] Little Digger > > < > like a tuba: It's so bone-crackingly easy to nail a > > song when you're swinging a sledgehammer. >> > Anyway, what I want to know is what the consensus is on > "Little Digger". Do most people like it because it > really puts the point across or hate it because > (from what I can make of the metaphor) it's obvious? Yes, Little Digger is very obvious. So is "Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy regrets losing girl". "Imagine" has been knocked for being "obvious". But in another sense Little Digger is no way obvious. The subject matter is so unusual - I can't think of any other songs that address this issue. And that is one of the things I really like about Liz - she finds angles that others miss completely. If you don't like the song, at least give her credit for trying something different. I do wonder if Little Digger appeals mainly to those with kids (like me) and passes over the heads of the rest. Trying to imagine the protective feelings of a parent towards a child is like trying to imagine being in love for the first time - just not possible. And if you've brought about a situation that may hurt your child, the guilt must be horrendous - also impossible to imagine if you have not been there, but Liz tries to explain it anyway - "I've done the damage, the damage is done / I pray to God that I'm the damaged one / In all these grown-up complications that you don't understand / I hope you can, someday / I hope you can". Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 03:10:05 -0500 From: "Jim" Subject: Re: [support-system] RE: Little Digger And if I may explore this a little further, you can't tell me that as a faithful Liz fan, you don't find it the least bit flattering that she decided to share *this* with us. Think about that for a second. Sure artists share their feelings and personal experiences regularly...but how often do they make reference to their children? That is, more often than not, a subject that is simply not discussed. That is their privacy. This song is deeply personal. I appreciate that Liz shared it with us. Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Paul Spinks To: support-system@smoe.org Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 1:01 AM Subject: [support-system] RE: Little Digger > Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2003 07:10:02 -0500 > From: "WaverRider" > Subject: [support-system] Little Digger > > < > like a tuba: It's so bone-crackingly easy to nail a > > song when you're swinging a sledgehammer. >> > Anyway, what I want to know is what the consensus is on > "Little Digger". Do most people like it because it > really puts the point across or hate it because > (from what I can make of the metaphor) it's obvious? Yes, Little Digger is very obvious. So is "Boy meets girl, boy loses girl, boy regrets losing girl". "Imagine" has been knocked for being "obvious". But in another sense Little Digger is no way obvious. The subject matter is so unusual - I can't think of any other songs that address this issue. And that is one of the things I really like about Liz - she finds angles that others miss completely. If you don't like the song, at least give her credit for trying something different. I do wonder if Little Digger appeals mainly to those with kids (like me) and passes over the heads of the rest. Trying to imagine the protective feelings of a parent towards a child is like trying to imagine being in love for the first time - just not possible. And if you've brought about a situation that may hurt your child, the guilt must be horrendous - also impossible to imagine if you have not been there, but Liz tries to explain it anyway - "I've done the damage, the damage is done / I pray to God that I'm the damaged one / In all these grown-up complications that you don't understand / I hope you can, someday / I hope you can". Paul ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 09:33:55 -0500 From: Dan MacDonald Subject: [support-system] LLLLLLLLittle Digger i like little digger, but was never as blown away by it the way some people were. i have to admit though, the "i got it from my dad" part really hits me. i mean, the song is very obvious - but so is "It's harder to be friends than lovers and you shouldn't try to mix the two." again - i am in no way comparing little digger to divorce song. but "obviousness" has always been what i like most about liz phair. the fact that it is so obvious, yet for some reason - no one really ever manages to say it. as a side note Catherine Molanphy will be amused to know - i went to a big artsy-fartsy party last night - and i swear to god - every SINGLE person there pronounced there L's in that coying way we were discussing a few months back... i wanted to kill someone. anyway, laters - dan ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 15:20:06 -0600 From: Margery Reese Pepper Subject: [support-system] pitchfork media pitchforkmedia.com reviews records (usually harshly). their review of the new album said "As such, Liz Phair proves so ultimately unnecessary, it might as well not even exist." and scored it a 0.0 out of 10. however, a new review of Why Can't I was just posted: Liz Phair: "Why Can't I" Now that the initial shock of Liz Phair's descent into anonymous teen-pop has worn off, I think I'm finally able to separate the music from my disgust and view this track as the radio-ready abomination it is. Okay, I'm not, but I'll at least say that the radio bleats worse bullshit: If it came down to a lifetime of this or the Black-Eyed Peas' "Where Is the Love", I know deep down I'd opt to spend eternity clutching my bleeding stomach and vomiting pure cane sugar to "Why Can't I". The track is presently everywhere. It made for a disorienting juxtaposition with The Texas Chainsaw Massacre when it wouldn't leave my fucking head after spewing out of the theater's promotional radio network, and any commercial pop station not touting its format as wholly "urban" digs dropping it between Fefe Dobson and R. Kelly cuts. I guess now that Let's Go has finally been drained of its singles, there is, at last, a market for Avril knockoffs. When Liz Phair was released six months ago, Capitol Records knew their time to strike was nigh, and though they may have hit with it just a bit early, it's all worked out just fine: "Why Can't I" has actually broken the Top 40. So, if nothing else, it's time to admit that Phair was right, and I was wrong: the record has not been a complete commercial flop. Unfortunately, there's not much else to say about this tinny, overdigital, pitch-corrected hellsong, except that it's shocking just how much power TRL is comfortable handing over to twelve-year-old girls, the only American force with the time and energy to actually put in votes for their favorite video every single afternoon. --Ryan Schreiber ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 16:01:50 -0600 From: "Jeremy Rea" Subject: [support-system] RE: Anything positive "Little Digger" is a Hallmark card. It's a lazy, cloying, and mawkish. In lieu of saying anything remarkable, or even particularly interesting, she (or whoever assembled the song) took the biggest, fattest swipe at one of the biggest fattest feel-good subjects. Those of us sans children like it less than those of you con children because we can see that you're being manipulated. We care for you some, and we don't like to see you treated as targets. Jim - How long did you hold out against asking about Phair's booby before you just got too afraid no one else would ask? jeremy _________________________________________________________________ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 14:12:27 -0800 (PST) From: bmad Subject: [support-system] Re: support-system-digest V6 #323 i don't think the problem is that little digger is obvious, exactly. you're absolutely right; most stories are all just riffs on the same thing. for instance lucinda williams has written like a hundred good breakup songs, and i'd never accuse her of being obvious. instead, the thing i don't like about little digger is that it's totally trading in cheap, dawson's creek caliber pop psychology. it's almost, but not quite, as bad as all those horrible alanis morisette songs that sound like exact transcripts of her most tedious, banal therapy sessions. in this case, Emil's girlfriend hit the nail on the head (sorry for the confusing metaphor) in saying that little digger comes off like a redbook article... ("Top 10 Signs You're Ruining Your Kid's Life!" or "Is Your Sex Life Turning Your Son Gay?!") Contrary to what others have said, to my mind there really is no nuance to the song, or any interesting perspective. "I've done the damage/ the damage is done/ i pray to god that i'm the damaged one..." liz, please. spare us and take it to dr phil. xoxo bennett ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 6 Dec 2003 21:28:29 -0500 From: "Jim" Subject: Re: [support-system] RE: Anything positive I can't say that I held out at all. I replied immediately. And honestly, by the time I read that message I'd already read about it in a fan show review. I made that comment as an attempt at levity. It was apparently lost. I promise to be stoic and humorless from this point forward. And I'll take the answer to my question as a "no". Jim ----- Original Message ----- From: Jeremy Rea To: support-system@smoe.org Sent: Saturday, December 06, 2003 5:01 PM Subject: [support-system] RE: Anything positive "Little Digger" is a Hallmark card. It's a lazy, cloying, and mawkish. In lieu of saying anything remarkable, or even particularly interesting, she (or whoever assembled the song) took the biggest, fattest swipe at one of the biggest fattest feel-good subjects. Those of us sans children like it less than those of you con children because we can see that you're being manipulated. We care for you some, and we don't like to see you treated as targets. Jim - How long did you hold out against asking about Phair's booby before you just got too afraid no one else would ask? jeremy _________________________________________________________________ Winterize your home with tips from MSN House & Home. http://special.msn.com/home/warmhome.armx ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2003 18:55:27 -0800 From: Kenneth Lee Subject: [support-system] more Liz articles Hi folks, Just added seven more articles to Mesmerizing. They are: Gotham, May 2003 Los Angeles Times, September 11, 2003 Sunday Times (London), October 26, 2003 The Arizona Daily Star, October 31, 2003 The Courier-Journal (Louisville, KY), November 7, 2003 Albuquerque Journal, November 21, 2003 Spin, January 2004 Enjoy! - -Ken kenmlee@ix.netcom.com MeSmErIzInG - AnOtHeR LiZ PhAiR WeBsItE http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2471/ ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #324 ************************************