From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #229 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, August 26 2003 Volume 06 : Number 229 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [support-system] npr does liz hard ["S - Kon" ] [support-system] under-whelmed? [Erin ] [support-system] Liz on VH1's I Love The '70s [Aaron Walker ] [support-system] Catherine's 15mins of Fame + Bonnaroo freebie [jt394997@] [support-system] chicago / vintage vinyl / koln ["over pavema" ] [support-system] Re: "'m Like That" [Catherine Molanphy Subject: [support-system] npr does liz hard I took my vacation in Chicago this year and it was fabulous. Didn't make it to the former Idful Studios like I wanted to, but it was great and Liz filled all the same. On the way to Great America I nearly shat myself because some lower-FM station, probably NPR, was playing "Extraordinary". I giggled and sang along, generally annoying my friends, when to my surprise [GASP!!!] some thin voiced DJ came on and did a general dissection of the new album, song by song. It was so in depth and dead on that it was probably his dissertation. Anyway, it was awesome and I just wanted to share that random bit of Liz that brightened up my week with the list...seems like things need brightening up around here, hard. Oh yeah...I didnt get to do my Pilgrimage to Liz this year...but eventually it will happen, so believe that I will be giving you all a play by play when it does. Okay...no one cares. Word. xoxostacy _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and enjoy automatic e-mail virus protection. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2003 22:43:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Erin Subject: [support-system] under-whelmed? overpavement wrote: i was wondering the same exact thing. then i saw these two reviews from chicago papers, and realized that maybe the shows were so under-whelming that no one even cared to post about them... Under-whelmed you say? Is that by any chance a Sloan reference? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 01:18:03 -0500 From: Aaron Walker Subject: [support-system] Liz on VH1's I Love The '70s Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but Liz is part of VH1's new I Love The '70s series. She's at least in the 1973, 1974 and 1976 episodes briefly discussing the Charlie Brown Thanksgiving special, Charlotte's Web, The Exorcist, Sweet Home Alabama and Oscar Mayer Wieners. (I do mean brief, maybe 5-10 seconds per topic.) - -- - -Aaron Walker http://www.visi.com/~lazlo/liz/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 04:01:53 -0400 From: "Michael Honaker" Subject: [support-system] Wesley Willis Is Gone. Didn't know if anyone had mentioned this or not so far today... Wesley Willis has passed away. Very sad. Here's the article link: http://www.alternativetentacles.com/wesleywillis.htm Rock over London, Rock on Chicago. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 04:56:52 -0400 From: "Michael Honaker" Subject: [support-system] liz & semenex / re: lizphair.com forums / re: gma Catherine said about the forum and stuff: > I think a few of us are. I'm "Carnivore". What's your screenname? screenname is "gevaudan", same as on the Supernova Board. And... >"Liz Phair and Aaliyah (sp?) rule!!" I saw that too! Hysterical! Tragic, really, but hysterical. I was thinking the same thing about the person that seems to start the threads. They must be plugged in with Capitol or Liz in some way. I hope they are, to tell you the truth, because it does raise the chances that Liz would stop in, or relay messages, or like you said... demos demos demos. I really hope she gets to read everything. I saw that post about the Semenex thing tonight, and I had to respond... I just think it's terrible. If anyone wants to see it...yuck... look here: http://www.semenex.com/elixir.htm I was very tired when I responded as I am now, so maybe I made no sense. Oh well. As well... > "the good ol' days of music" by those same bozos now in > their thirties. Barf! I never cared for death metal, or whatever one calls it. I always got so sick of seeing those kids with the metal shirts and whatnot, acting all badass-y. I couldn't wait until it was time for lunch so I could sit and eat in peace and listen to Tori every day. The heaviest music I ever got into was Nirvana back then... But that lost it's thing for me once I heard Tori's cover of Teen Spirit. I'm as much of a fan of Tori as I am of Liz / Amy Ray / Geraldine Fibbers / Queen Adreena. Shit, why are they all female/female fronted bands? I just now realized this. Hmm. Queen Adreena amazes me... It *does* sound like really bad death metal, but Katie Jane's lyrics are brilliant. Been following her voice and lyrics since Daisy Chainsaw. Ha! No matter about the C word. The B-day thing is tired anyway. We can still make fun of him in our minds off-list. God, I hope I'm not offending him by talking about him like he's not here. Crap, who am I kidding? Of course I hope that. overpavement said: > also, big thanks to the person at supernova, for posting the regis and kelly > and GMA performances on the site. neither is particularly good, but i do > like the commentary, where someone mentions the problems in the falsetto > portions of the songs. Actually, that'd be I. You're welcome too! I must admit, I love Liz's strange vocals... But this new stuff... I like it, really, I do... it's sometimes strange for me because it just has that "written for direct radio rotation" feel to it, and none of the other stuff was like that. It's ok to hit high notes... and it's ok to try to hit them in a live show. It shows she's trying for the audience. But this last GMA performance...man. When she tried those notes in WCI, I kind of squinted a bit because it sounded painful. It also made me imagine that The Matrix were hidden from view behind the building...and had her all wired up...and Lauren is sitting there poking Scott in the arm with this wireless remote going... "hey...watch this...I can fuck up her voice! teeeheeee!" Then Scott's like "oh shit! let me try! let me try!" But anyway, Liz can hold a note... and we all know this. Maybe it's just that these new songs we're written with the good old formula of verse/chorus/verse/blah/blah/blah.... But I stand by my point...If she sang the new ones like she sang the old stuff, it'd be a great show. I guess I don't make much sense really. On one hand I like it when she screws up, because it shows the old Liz. On the other hand, I really hate it because it's possible someone could think she sucks just by hearing a bad rendition of a song. Oh well. I'm all 100% for Liz doing what she can to gain a bigger audience. I want to see completely sold-out headlining tours all across the nation in the next few years. I'm secretly also hoping that she's held the REALLY good stuff back for the next album. It makes sense really... put out a popish/rock record, gain a lot of new fans and get bigger exposure, make capitol trust you more, then kick everyone's ass with the next record. - -Michael ==== SUPERNOVA has moved... http://www.fan-sites.org/liz-phair/ The SUPERNOVA Discussion Board... http://supernova.board.dk3.com ==== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 06:48:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: [support-system] Re: support-system-digest V6 #228 >> I had no idea that people actually still listened to Megadeth...AND Iron Maiden! Is that possible? Heh, I still listen to both bands. Megadeth just broke up this year after Dave Mustaine injured his hand, and ended his guitar career. :-( Iron Maiden is still rocking, especially with the return of Bruce Dickinson and Adrian Smith. Their last album "Brave New World" was fantastic. They're due for another soon, I'm thinking. :-) j. << I still love listening to both bands. Dave Mustaine is coming back with a solo album in early 2004. he can play guitar again thanks to many hours of rehab on his arm and I have a feeling he'll be better than ever. Iron Maiden has a new album coming out next month and are touring the world right now. Big heavy metal fan here. :-D Craig __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 10:15:26 -0400 From: "Stephanie" Subject: [support-system] Re: Liz forum Michael Honaker said: "Has anyone been visiting/using the lizphair.com forum? I was just wondering... I signed up and *tried* to get involved when it opened up, but 50% of the conversation seems to be coming from people that are just now getting interested in Liz (which is probably a fact, and that's good for them) but... I think a lot of them are teenagers. I see no problem in that, because I'm all for Liz getting additional fans... I don't really know their ages really, I'm just assuming. I got a hateful, poorly typed e-mail from someone accusing me of bashing Liz. It was rather funny. I just laughed it off and figured they were 13 years old and hadn't reached the Sarcasm lesson in Hooked On Phonics. So do any SS folk participate over there?" I agree. I haven't used the forum from her site but there is anohter one a Voy Forum or whatever it's called and it's pretty dull. It's either kids who love the new album or people who say "Hi, I hate the new album. Bye" and nothing else. This list is far more interesting and certainly is more about people who care about her music and want to talk about specific songs. As for the whole Bars of the Bed and Bloodkeeper thread, I'm just not into either of those songs. There are a number of songs on the WCSE sessions that are so I dunno, out of place feeling and sort of unfinished that I can't get into them. But I like Russian Girl, White Bird of Texas and Stuck on an Island. - -STephanie, who is still sad she missed the Boston show ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 21:22:21 -0400 (EDT) From: jt394997@oak.cats.ohiou.edu Subject: [support-system] Catherine's 15mins of Fame + Bonnaroo freebie Anyone else catch Catherine's appearance on "History Detectives"? I read her post yesterday about it and since I watch that show once in a while I tuned in. It was quite the dramatic performance, I really thought she was scared for her life as she was sewing that flag together. Good job Catherine, sorry you got screwed on the editing though. I think you were only on for all of 5 seconds. Anyways, on to my Bonnaroo offer, I'm cleaning up my collection and I found an extra copy of Liz's 2003 Bonnaroo show, if anyone wants it, just send me your address. This leads me to wonder if maybe I forgot to mail the bonnaroo show off to someone in a trade. So if that is the case please let me know and I'll get you a copy too. - -Jay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 02:41:19 +0000 From: "over pavema" Subject: [support-system] chicago / vintage vinyl / koln >From: TitleTK@aol.com >Okay, so I went to see all three of the Liz Phair shows at the Metro in >Chicago this weekend after already seeing her at the Bowery two weeks ago >in New >York and all I can say is bleh . . . sorry to hear, but, based on the paper reviews, not too surprised. i was hoping for better, even though i wasn't there. i do wonder a bit if liz isn't sort of annoyed that the cd isn't doing better, or that she's stuck with this band (36-year olds may find 20-year olds fun and invigorating for a while, but at some point she's gotta be wondering, 'why am i on this bus with these guys who really do not 'get' my songs?' sure, it's fun to see how they can't hold their liquor, but vomit is funny while it's projectilizing itself across the room. not so funny the next morning when you can't get the smell out of the carpet on the bus... like many, many things in life, what seems like a great idea the night before becomes a horrorshow the morning after. i should write a song about that!' :). not sure if people are aware of this, but there are a lot of photos, plus a brief video on the vintage vinyl site, from her in-store show there a few weeks back. you can get to it from http://www.vvinyl.com/instorearchive/default.asp well, here's hoping the show in cologne is a marked improvement. all our german members, please keep us posted! danke sehr. o _________________________________________________________________ Get MSN 8 and help protect your children with advanced parental controls. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/parental ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 22:59:03 -0400 From: "John A. Johnson" Subject: [support-system] 5 seconds of Liz on VH1? I could very well be hallucinating this evening, after having a fair number of ounces of Maker's Mark. Which is in a sense the fault of Megan Kelly McCarthy, who wrote a fabulous post to this list on 11/09/01 in which she mentioned that "the makers mark bottle is a lot less full than it was when I started writing this," which led me to try this whiskey for the first time, which in turn led to a new love in my life. At any rate, my wife and I had finished watching For Love or Money and a segment of the Today Show I had taped earlier with the Star Wars Kid and an interview with the last three FLOM contestants. I decided to channel surf and began with VH1, which was showing I Love the 70s. When I tuned in, VH1 was showing commentaries on "Brick House" by The Commodores. A couple of people said some really derogatory things about the song, when the face of Liz Phair!?! appeared, and she said what a great song this was. Okay, was I hallucinating, or not? - -------------------------------------------------------------------- John A. Johnson j5j@psu.edu http://www.personal.psu.edu/~j5j/ Penn State is not responsible for my behavior. Nor am I for the university's. "A ruthless, doctrinaire avoidance of degeneracy is a degeneracy of another sort. Getting drunk and picking up bar-ladies and writing metaphysics is a part of life." - from _Lila_ by R. Pirsig ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:02:37 EDT From: TitleTK@aol.com Subject: [support-system] "'m Like That" I was on Jase's site tonight and I saw this tiny song on the lyrics page. Did I miss something? Has this been recorded? james ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:35:19 -0400 From: "Chris DeLisle" Subject: [support-system] Detroit show it was a love phest in Detroit Rock City tonight. i don't know what the exact elements were ~ the heat, the love, the desire for something to cheer about (it sucks being a Tigers fan) ~ but something magical happened tonight between Liz and the audience. even before the first strums of 6'1", she had us all in the palm of her hand. a minute or so into the song, i think she sensed something different. no lackluster show tonight. the set list as best as i can remember: 6'1" Polyester Bride Rock Me Never Said Glory Divorce Song Help Me Mary Favorite Red Light Fever Stratford-On-Guy (solo) Uncle Alvarez Perfect World Why Can't I Johnny Feelgood Extraordinary Supernova encore: Little Digger HWC Fuck And Run notes: - -- either "Divorce Song" came before "Help Me Mary" or it came right after it. - -- Liz looked super-fine as usual. before the show she wore a maroonish (?) top and a short denim skirt. holy smokes. for the show, she switched her shirt to something that was white that had something written on it. perhaps Jason could elaborate ~ actually, Jason had quite a wonderful time, from what i gather. he was down in front. - -- no real lulls to speak of, although i believe the "Exile" and "wcse" songs (and "Supernova") probably got a little bit more of a reaction. - -- it was crazy hot in there. so hot that after "Johnny Feelgood" and before "Extraordinary," Liz actually took her shirt off. (cue Beavis and Butthead moans, grunts, miscellaneous noises) to reveal she was wearing a tube top. - -- she teared up a bit during/after "Little Digger." - -- "HWC" was fun as hell to sing along to. - -- no one wanted to leave, but i believe that that's her show. - -- as many people have said before, she is much better looking in person, and that's saying something. - -- the band was fine ~ i mean, i guess there was a band: i didn't really take my eyes off her all night. - -- Liz rocked all night. and it looked like she was having the time of her life up there on stage. nuff said. i'm sure Jason and DanMac will elaborate further. chris deLisle ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:51:24 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: [support-system] Re: "'m Like That" You mean, "I'm Like That"? Yeah... it's on the ShelvedDemos tape. More like a snippet than a song... it's good though. She just needs to write more of it. Maybe she already has and we haven't heard it yet... It's mostly a lot of loud guitar. > From: TitleTK@aol.com > Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:02:37 EDT > To: support-system@smoe.org > Subject: [support-system] "'m Like That" > > I was on Jase's site tonight and I saw this tiny song on the lyrics page. > Did I miss something? Has this been recorded? > > james ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2003 23:55:18 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: [support-system] Is 29K too big? If so, I'll divide my most recent diatribe into two parts... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:44:18 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: [support-system] Re: it's too late, sweetie (part 1) > From: "dana p." > > you're assuming "professionalism" refers to slick stage presence and, i dunno, > choreography and the like. that's not exactly what i'm talking about. No I'm not. I'm referring to the whole package. > i'm using it in the sense that when you're out there, you're doing pretty much > whatever it takes to make the experience enjoyable and entertaining for the > audience--and (gasp!) yourself. And yeah... that would be great if Liz had figured out how to do that. It seems that *you're* assuming that her lack of performing professionalism is due to laziness, contempt for the audience and the entire live performance medium, or some combination of those. Have you ruled out the possibility that she just sucks at it? That a person who excels at writing songs in her bedroom and turning knobs in her home studio to create recorded craftworks might not be really adept at giving a consistently good live performance? Maybe I'm biased because I have such a low opinion of the concert scene in general. I like freshness, and I always resent seeing a schtick repeated night after night. Don't laugh, but I'm a big Joan Baez fan and I've seen her perform live several times here in Staten Island. She's not exactly what you would think of in the way of Vegas smoothness, and in fact for almost her entire performing career she was plagued by vomit-inducing stagefright before each show, and yet always came off as totally self-composed and almost brash in her desire to be the center of attention. Anyway, I don't know if she still gets that stagefright anymore, but each of the times I saw her perform she did this sctick in one of her songs where she apes Dylan singing. Each time the crowd exploded with laughter and pleasure... including my parents who were sitting there next to me and are probably just senile enough to have forgotten the times before when she did the same joke. I just sat there with my arms folded... it's a moment that epitomizes what I can't stand about live shows. Contrast that with the two shows I've seen of Odetta... her voice is very nearly gone, but her performing presence is tremendous and she manages to scoop up your feelings into her. No schtick, she just seems to be *feeling* it. In my opinion, you can't teach or learn that... you have it or you don't. I still love and listen to both artists... they both have something to offer musically, it's just that one is a consummate performer and the other one has to fake it. I'd rather see Liz bumbling than faking it... her sucky live shows are no discredit to her in MY opinion... she is what she is. > [tori amos, for example, is very professional. she's puts on a fantastic show > and it's not about being smarmy and slick.] Okay, well, I don't like tori's music but I'll take your word for it that she's a good live performer. But that's *her*... she's probably just good at it. And if it's not, and she's worked hard to create a professional performing "veneer", then I think I'd probably sense it and resent it. It wouldn't win her any points with me. > it's not about trying to cover up for lack of talent or whatever--it's just > something extra. i'm referring to a professional "spirit"; it's something in > your demeanor and performance that says, "i like being in the same room with > you and let's all enjoy some music i'm about to play..." I'm not saying that performing acumen and musical talent/honesty are mutually exclusive... I'm just saying that very often an artist has more of one than the other. And you shouldn't damn that artist just because they lack in one area or another. They're two very different artforms... I happen to value the musical ability more than the performance style. That's why I don't care so much about Liz's live gaffes... I wish she were better, but that would be icing on the cake. To me, her vast songwriting/recording talent more than outweighs her other deficiencies. I think her music is THAT good. I know there's a very vocal faction that says that the only good musicians are the ones with amazing live shows... we've all met fans of the dave matthews band and/or Phish, for example. I've never bought into that philosophy. In '65 the Beatles were playing miserable, perfunctory shows like the ill-conceived Shea Stadium debacle, but had just recorded the brilliant "Rubber Soul". Did that make them fakers? Were they deserting their fans when they put their collective feet down and said they didn't want to tour anymore? I think they realized that they had more to give their fans by staying in the studio. No, Liz is not the Beatles. She can't afford to not tour, but not because she isn't as talented as they were. She's just not as well known and doesn't sell as many records. Honestly, I don't think the Beatles would have broken through in today's pop music climate. So that's the sad fact. But it's not her fault that she was born at the wrong time, as we all are. > and, yes, sure, there *is* an underlying reason for it: you're trying to sell > records, after all. can we all agree that she took this step with the new CD > to build a huge audience and reap the financial benefits? Well, I think all we know for certain is that that's what *Capitol* wants for her. Don't forget that she spent the better part of a year trying to get out of her Capitol contract. Don't get me wrong, I think she wants to sell lots of records, too... I think she *really* wants to be on the radio a lot. But I can't say for certain whether or not this style of album and publicizing would have been her strategy if she's been at another label. (off-topic: she says she's in a win-win situation, I kind of think she's in a lose-lose. Or rather, a Catch-22. If she stays with Capitol she has the benefit of their huge distribution and publicity machine, but they won't allow her to present her music the way she wants to and therefore the "Liz Phair" that's being put out there is a lame faded copy of the real one and appeals to no one [i'm being worst-case-s. here]. If she gets away from Capitol and onto an indie she can finally be herself and create the kick-ass pop songs she's capable of, but mainstream DJs won't play her, because, you know, that's how the system works.) > ok, so then building audience rapport and being "open" and fun at shows is a > really good way to do that. [does that satisfy your "logic" jones?] Meow. And yeah, that *is* a really good way to sell records. But it's not the only one... not *everybody* buys records based on concerts. :waves hand in the air wildly: But yeah, you're right. It's the most efficient way. So far we've established that Liz is lousy at her job... as you and the music industry perceive that job. I still don't care. I still don't see how it says anything about her as a person. (to be continued) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2003 00:53:30 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: [support-system] Re: it's too late, sweetie (part 2) continuing from part 1... > From: "dana p." > > many have a lot of respect for performers who go the extra mile, or, in this > case, the extra inch. whatever. just a little something extra. how many > people does she ever have in line to sign autographs and--oh yikes--she's got > ONE GUY with a really interesting story asking for one little shout-out. one > person. that's IT. christ, i've seen some musicians stand in line for *an > hour*, after performing a kick-ass show for 90 minutes, patiently signing > autographs and posing with fans for pictures. *** :sigh: I don't know where to start... "we've been through this so many tiiiiimes before..." First of all, I'm sure Brian was not the first or only person to ask a favor of her. So, no... NOT "one person. that's IT." There are many Brians in the world. And there's nothing wrong with that. I've also seen performers sign stuff for hours... and yeah, it gave me a warm fuzzy feeling and yeah, I fairly swooned when Donovan held my hand in both of his own hands and asked me how I liked his new album. But such things do little to change my mind about either that performer's music, about which I already know all I need to know, or their personality, about which I know nothing and about which their signing stuff and doing lots of meet-n-greets is not going to tell me a damn thing. I'll say it again, some of the people on this list are acting like her unwillingness to do that whole fan-favor thing says something about her character. And I think that's bullshit. That's how this whole wordy argument began, and we keep coming back to it. > sorry i keep citing the "business" aspect, but if you knew how the music > business works, you'd know that artists make money only on touring. My knowing how the music business works would have little effect on my enjoyment of her music, would it? I mean, do *you* consciously choose to listen to an artist because they're good at the business end of things? > unless their CD goes platinum. then they look forward to raking it in from > endorsements. that means at shows, you gotta work it, because that's the key > part of the cycle. sorry, sweetie, but that's just how it is; i am not making > this up. bone up on how it all works, maybe. Yeah, I'll do that, sugarplum. And after I figure it all out my head will be turned and your "bad business" argument will have sudden relevance to this discussion. Oh wait... I forgot... there *is* no relevance! Sorry about that, honey... > i'm presenting an opinion based on observation of behavior and what i consider > to be a problem--because it goes beyond brian's thing: i'm on several > different lists and the reports i'm hearing of shows.... not good. and it > pains me, it really does. it's too bad to see someone so talented fuck it up > for herself, simply because she feels she did everything she could (write some > songs the way she was told and then pose for pictures in label-approved > outfits) and now we're all supposed to be falling all over ourselves in > devotion--financial and otherwise. seriously, if she indeed wants to be "the > people's princess," She does? And who said we're supposed to be falling all over ourselves? Look, I also think it's sad that Liz is probably going to fail in her bid for mainstream success. But I think it says more about the sadness of how people choose their music and how crass the industry is. I think it's sad that music doesn't succeed or fail on its own merit, rather than how it's packaged or even how good of a show one puts on. I think getting angry at Liz for not being good at promoting herself is stupid and misdirected... it's like getting angry at a dog for scratching its ass on the sidewalk, or a turtle for taking a long time to put his hat and coat on. You say she could do all this if she tried harder and cared more; I say you don't know that and it's not that easy. > she really truly is gonna have to get down from those "six-inch heels anymore" > and do all that stuff that the people like. Sorry... "the people" like a lot of stuff that makes me gag, so I'll take her as she is, extreme footwear and all. > no matter how boring or pedestrian or just plain stupid she thinks it is. > sorry. she made a very calculated choice, didn't she? and then she's got *one > guy* asking for a shout-out. Just ONE guy!! > it takes less than 10 seconds to do it, and, there you go, people think you're > cool and they're happy to be there and all the rest of it.... that's all it > takes, it's done. If they needed THAT for their concert experience to be enjoyable, then I'd rather see her practice more with the band than give out cupcakes after the show. You seem to be saying that when you put a little hat on a dog turd it really dresses it up nicely... why settle for a dog turd in the first place? Stay home and listen to the CD. > *** if she really wanted to shut that bitch up from the NY Times, she'd be > trying much harder to own her shows, no matter if she's opening for jason mraz > or, ha ha, gary coleman. like i've said many times before, if she's so > concerned with trying to emulate sheryl's success Hey, I'm glad you compared her to Sheryl... because Sheryl's music? Not as good. But wait! She sells more records! Whoops, then she must be better. What's wrong with me that I still prefer Liz despite her uninspired touring? If I'm sounding irritatingly sarcastic, it's because you keep begging the question and arguing a moot point and I guess I'm getting tired of responding to it. Which probably means it's time for me to bow out gracefully but... you know. Hard to do. > liz has been given a *huge* chance to launch her career to the next > level--something many artists don't get EVER--and what is she doing? > she's being damn dumb; face it. Dumb? No... more like inept. She's not good at the business... I'll grant you that in spades. I think we have a lot in common in that we both really really want Liz to succeed. But I just don't get your anger directed at HER... look around at the current state of mainstream music. To me, the general sleaziness of the industry is so much more worthy of ire. Think of all the amazing, creative musicians out there whose basement tapes we have never and will never get to hear because they're not hot chicks they way Liz is and they're probably really awkward socially and DON'T KNOW HOW to "work" an audience and can't present themselves to the public so they will be palatable. Just because a few *sort of* talented people have managed to slip through under this sleazy system because they're rare in having both music sense and horse sense doesn't make the sleaziness any less outrageous or any more conducive to true creativity. Pick a worthy enemy. - --Catherine ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #229 ************************************