From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #197 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Friday, July 25 2003 Volume 06 : Number 197 Today's Subjects: ----------------- set list from Portland, OR show 7-22-03 ["Headache79" ] sf show [LULU428@aol.com] Re: from today's The oregonian [Catherine Molanphy ] Billboard [Jase ] LP takes huge dip [Al Madrid ] Re: Billboard [Catherine Molanphy ] Re: LP takes huge dip [AWeiss4338@aol.com] Re: dumb hos = dumb hos [fallout@purdue.edu] Re: A few questions. Help. [ewest ] laws of physics, baby ["dana p." ] swallowing these interviews tastes funky ["over pavema" Subject: set list from Portland, OR show 7-22-03 hey all, went to the show last night, and got to meet liz after (my first time meeting her, so it was way cool to be me last night). here is the set list, along with notes about stage stories and guitar changes, for those who care: (she started with her red fender) WCSE Uncle Alvarez 6'1" Mesmerizing WCI Never Said Little Digger (She introduced this as: "This next song is really special to me. It's... just really special." Sounded like she wanted to say more, but didn't.) (She started playing something here, saying "i'm just fucking around" it sounded like it could have been something from Girlysounds--Sometimes A Dream maybe?) Glory (She then changed guitars to the one from the LP cover) Help Me Mary (Then she told a story about how much she loved her guitar and that it was like a teddy bear to her and she couldn't see how people would smash their guitars and that her ex-boyfriend from Porland had given it to him and he was a Taurus.) Flower intro (although she didn't finish it) Rock Me Johnny Feelgood Polyester Bride (She changed back to her red guitar) Divorce Song (made the comment, "i wrote a song about having a son before i had one, and made a song about getting divorce before i was divorced, now i need to write a song about winning the lottery.") (Then she sang a few lines of "You learn" by Alanis Morissette and told a story about the last show with Alanis and being in her underwear and getting wrapped in toilet paper) Perfect World (more bits of Flower up until the Blowjob Queen line) Extraordinary Supernova (left the stage... then came back for Encore) HWC Fuck And Run Then the lights came up and it was over. She has grown considerably as a performer since I saw her in 98; I also heard audience members comment, "she has presence." the songs from the new record sounded really good live; they were stripped down and less produced. I know some of you will never like the new record and that's fine, but they fit in with the other songs she played. ""As I got older I had to step out of the lines. And make up my own mind. As I got light as a feather they got stiff as a board. I can't feel any more, but I can fake it forever." Liz Phair, "Bionic Eyes" _______________________________________________ Express Yourself - Share Your Mood in Emails! Visit www.SmileyCentral.com - the happiest place on the Web. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:00:39 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: Re: Note to [Jeremy] > Please know that I hate you, a lot, for calling me out and being completely > right and destroying all my credibility. More so. Please know that my intention was simply this: to crush your ego into little bits covered in glitter. (Oh, I slay myself.) > But look, in the interest of brevity, I hate H.W.C., loathe it, I would say, > because it reminds me of the rest of the album, only with the word "cum," or > "come," substituted for anything monosyllabic in the chorus. It's so much the > same, to me, yet it tries to qualify itself entirely by being "naughty." And > the "fuck" in the song smacks of overeffort, just as it does in "Why Can't I." I'm a little bit with you on the "fuck" being extraneous, but not the "cum". I don't think "jizz" is quite as singable... and I always like the words "hot white" to describe ANYTHING, from my sunnysides-up to my hatred for my boss (just tack "of a thousand suns" onto the end of it and it starts to be a little more descriptive of my deepdeep loathing). > It doesn't ring true, and more than that, it comes off as false, depressingly > opaque. Well, I guess we're at an impasse on that. It rang true to ME, and there's not much we can really debate about that. That it reminds you of the rest of the album I find rather more puzzling. The sound is so different from the Matrix tracks and the Penn ones... that's part of what stood out about it for me. > I know it's hard for a lot of people to go with that, especially the ones who > got to clamor out of the fucking woodwork to explain and re-explain the Dorian > Gray reference to all the idiots, but even that isn't really necessary. In the > song, I mean. I don't know what we'd do without people there to explain things > for us. :grins: I don't mind saying that I had to think about it for a couple of days before I could apply the meaning to the song... I think I re-joined the list after all the explanations. I was reluctant to mention that lyric in my review of the song, but I'll admit that the words make me sooo happy when I sing them... admit it, the rhythm of the phrase is perfect! I cringed a little at the literary reference, but when it sings so well I can't even point my finger at the intellectual posing. > But that's beside the point. The point is I got to say "vagina-equipeed Dick > Clark" and mean it. How many readings did it take me to get the vagina-dick thing? More than I care to admit. Grudging nod to your prose. - --Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:00:39 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: Re: SF show reports Man... she never does shows that quirky and intimate in NYC. I hate you all who got to go to the SF show... fie! Ken Lee wrote: > Cameras weren't allowed (says so on the tickets), but I know a few > photographers from newspapers were there, and a few sneaky folk smuggled in > their own cameras. > > And someone was smoking pot during the show -- I know you wanted to know that, > Emil... > > More random things I remembered during the show: > > Liz decided to add "Help Me Mary" at the spur of the moment -- the shouts of > requests from the audience egged her on. > > Someone requested "Jeremy Engle", to which she said, "Hey, that's a new one." > > Another comment I remember her saying was something like, "I've written so > many songs... the problem is trying to remember how to play them!" > > Her comment about "H.W.C." - "If ya can't do it in San Francisco, where can ya > do it? Not Charlottesville, Virginia, I'll tell ya that!" (thanks to Robert > Joyner for the reminder) > > Someone in the audience yelled, "Fuck the critics, Liz!" > > Liz did play during "Mesmerizing". After "Mesmerizing", she mentioned this > little tidbit (Emil should get excited): "Someone asked me what is that sound > at the end of the song on the record. It was Casey holding a dog by its neck > up to a mic. No, not me..." > > I'm sure I'll remember some more stuff in a while... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:04:51 -0400 From: LULU428@aol.com Subject: sf show i was at the sf fillmore show and havent had a chance to read or write since then. I was also outside trying to sell tickets and managed to sell one at face. I was so disappointed that I couldn't get rid of my 2 extra tickets! I thought for sure there would be tons more people ticketless and wanting to see liz. apparantly they rereleased more tickets after being sold out for the last few weeks. and alot of the local papers last week were not advertising the show- i noticed that the fillmore had huge ads for their upcoming shows and for some reason liz wasnt on it. anyway, it was my first time at the fillmore since I am from NY- and lucky me I also get to go to both nyc shows. after seeing this one- I am so excited. the fillmore is an amazing venue and i love that they give the posters out for free at the end to everyone! i have one for you katie brown :) the poster is very abstract and so beautiful. some things poeple missed in their reviews- the guitars were being changed for dino every single song! we couldnt believe it. liz commented that they would have to probably change the setlist because of it! it was funny. she has amazing stage presence- my boyfriend who has never seen her but has only heard whipsmart back in the day because of an old girlfriend thought she rocked and was awesome. and he even liked the new stuff which i had a hard time getting into even live. i was upset she didnt do more whipsmart but i loved the fact that she did so much guyville. we even had a bet - he thought for sure she'd play mostly the new album. i knew liz wouldnt do that-i was so happy he was wrong! i took a ton of amazing pix with my digital. then when she came back on for that 2nd encore- we got up really close- we had the camera taken away by someone who worked there and she deleted all the pix!!! i couldnt believe it. but i was so overwhelmed by liz coming back up after most of the crowd had left that i didnt care at the time. and that east bay article was great. after seeing liz live again i realize why i love her so much and it felt good to read that article. It reconfirmed my feelings for her and her music and how much it has played a part in the last 10 years of my life. i think that all of you going to see her in the next month are in for a treat- she just knows how to put on a kick ass show and i think she'll be throwing out lots of surprises. she even mentioned that after getting warmed up she sometimes likes to play things not on the setlist- just something she was in the mood to play. and then she apologized to the band for it. oh yeah, one more thing- she forgot how to play the opening chords to help me mary. she tried over and over and couldnt do it. she gave up and had dino do it. she said that when you have as many songs as she has you start forgetting them. i think thats it. Lani ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 02:12:23 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: Re: from today's The oregonian I like this quote: > A common complaint about the new record is that you're trying to write > unabashed pop songs with lyrics that are too provocative. > > I don't think so. I think that has been my MO since (Phair's EP) "Girly > Sound," way before "Guyville." I've always been interested in couching > provocative, interesting things in a superficial, appealing tune. I like that > dichotomy. People who accuse me of writing very commercial songs now with > provocative lyrics don't know my body of work. That's what I like about her, too. The "couching provocative, interesting things in a superficial, appealing tune". I love it when she has moments of clarity like that one. - --Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 03:06:57 -0400 From: Sean Murdock Subject: Re: from today's The oregonian >Date: Wed, 23 Jul 2003 16:54:34 -0700 (PDT) >From: robert joyner >Subject: from today's The oregonian > >- ----------------------------------------------- > >Liz is what she is >07/21/03 > >ED CONDRAN > >Do you sense that your audience feels betrayed by this album? > >I guess. I can't imagine how they come to that >conclusion. That says more about their lives than mine. Clever question -- it sounds challenging, but really it's a softball question, because the underlying assumption is that any fan who feels "betrayed" is a clingy, geeky, no-life loser. Liz's response displays a condescension that is disturbing for an artist who needs the support of her "base" now more than ever. >What are your fans' expectations? > >I feel so frustrated because a lot of what these >people expect of me is to be either a spokesperson or >a novelist. They forget a lot of what I do is musical. >Nobody talks about the musical side of my work. Strange, considering she's put some of the most generic, unmemorable music of her career on this album. She doesn't even play any guitar on it! She's a vocalist now, I guess, like Xtina -- problem is, she's scrubbed much of the charm out of her vocals and polished them beyond recognition to make them "better." So we have a Liz Phair album where she doesn't play guitar, doesn't sound like herself half the time, and doesn't write a third of the album. (I'm convinced the co-writing credit on the Matrix songs is more a courtesy than anything else.) >Do you get the feeling from fans that they would like >a repeat of "Exile in Guyville"? > >If I gave it to them, they wouldn't like it, either. Another misleading "softball" question, followed by a dismissive, condescending answer. Most Liz fans have never clamored for "another Exile" -- far from it. If anything, Liz herself is guilty of trying to pretend she's 24 again, hanging out with college doofuses, daydreaming about her adulterous studmuffin, and dropping in the "look-at-me-I'm-naughty" "HWC" in case we accidentally thought she had gone soft. Liz's "ya just can't please these fans" stance is undermined by the orgasmic responses to the Internet EP. Combined with "Insanity" and the 3 other outtakes that have surfaced, at least a half-dozen of these songs are better than *anything* on the actual album. >A common complaint about the new record is that you're >trying to write unabashed pop songs with lyrics that >are too provocative. > >I don't think so. I think that has been my MO since >(Phair's EP) "Girly Sound," way before "Guyville." >I've always been interested in couching provocative, >interesting things in a superficial, appealing tune. I >like that dichotomy. People who accuse me of writing >very commercial songs now with provocative lyrics >don't know my body of work. Jeez, another ridiculously wrong-minded question, giving Liz an "out" to diss her fans and avoid the real issues that exist with this record. Since *when* have Liz Phair fans complained about provocative lyrics?? It's laughable! And, as Liz has said all along, she's *always* wanted hits, even Guyville had "unabashed" pop music, but it also had enough Liz "quirk" to make it more interesting than mere pop. If the question was exactly the same but replaced "provocative" with "simple-minded" or "dumbed-down" *then* we might have gotten somewhere... >Why are fans upset about you digging young guys in song? > >I have no idea. It's so funny because that's utterly >ridiculous. There's nothing wrong being with a younger man. The reason people are "upset" about the songs like "Rock Me" is that it's sad, bordering on pathetic for an intelligent, late-30's single mom to settle for getting boned by dumbass videogame-playing goobers - -- you know, the types who "leave suspicious stains in the sink" -- the very type of male persona Liz has been skewering for 10 years. You put something as shallow and craven as "Rock Me" on the album, and you suck all the tenderness and sincerity out of something like "Little Digger." If the "other guy" in "Little Digger" is the same guy from "Rock Me," I pity Liz's kid. >What kind of man are you looking for? > >Someone who makes me laugh. Someone who enjoys my >personality. Someone who would not rule all over me. > >Someone who likes your new album? > >You can put that on the list, too. Good luck with that one. - -- Sean Murdock seanmurd@optonline.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:14:51 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Billboard Bad news: The album dropped to No. 83 this week. Jase ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 09:45:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Al Madrid Subject: LP takes huge dip As much as I've been hoping that LP does great, the big dive from 59 to 87 or so, doesn't look good. :( And is Capitol giving up? In one of the articles, Liz talks about how she wanted Extraordinary to be the single but for what ever unspecified reason, Cap went with WCI (my least favorite song on the album). She then said that if there is a God above that it will become a single someday. I'm like, whatthefuck? They haven't even been pushing a second single for the album? That sucks! Everyone I play that song for really, really likes it (most of them are mainstream fans). Oh well, enough bitching from me. Thanks to everyone who takes the time to give a review of her shows. I've yet to see Liz Live, but hope to do so when she comes through these parts again. Al __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software http://sitebuilder.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:54:52 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: Re: Billboard > From: Jase > > Bad news: The album dropped to No. 83 this week. Sheesh. Has WCI been officially released yet? Will it even make a difference, do you think? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:53:18 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: LP takes huge dip In a message dated 7/24/2003 12:46:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, almadrid_2000@yahoo.com writes: > In one of the articles, Liz > talks about how she wanted Extraordinary to be the > single but for what ever unspecified reason, Cap went > with WCI (my least favorite song on the album). She > then said that if there is a God above that it will > become a single someday. On the r4adio&Records charts, Liz is doing okay at three of them, top 40, Hot AC and AAA. WCI may still be a hit, but it's still under preforming as of this point. I'd been hoping that with the Matrix producing WCI would shoot up the charts, much like Jason Maraz did with The Remedy (which is vvery catchy, and not a bad song if you like slick folk pop). But no. Even casual listeners know better. Insanity rules it's chart, and that's what I expect here. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 13:38:25 -0500 From: fallout@purdue.edu Subject: Re: dumb hos = dumb hos dumb hos = dumb hos = i get to call them dumb hos = i also get to decide. jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 11:43:09 -0700 From: ewest Subject: Re: A few questions. Help. would someone please answer these questions: anyone know what the star symbol on Liz's guitar means? And what songs has she leaked??? and what is she planing to?? I'd really appreciate a response. Thanks. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 12:12:10 -0700 From: "dana p." Subject: laws of physics, baby [Hey Dana, I agree with you on the bullshit intellectual eliteism that is often Liz Phair. I have always found that to be the case when reading pieces on liz....] yeah, ok, so it's not just me. i put the term in quotes because i do think it's inadvertent. i understand how it feels to be the puppetmaster of ideas that you shape into pieces of art. there's always gonna be a certain amount of "i am master of my domain; i am the center of *a* universe," but i bristle at these constant jibes that i and others like me are just too stuck on "indie" or whatever, we're such joyless creatures, that we don't "get" what's supposed to be going on with these songs. i wish she'd "listen, listen, listen" to some of the things being said here. maybe if she didn't read it in the new york times she wouldn't be so defensive. i dunno. and then, ha ha: here comes emil with a post containing a really excellent interview. that's some of the best stuff i've ever read from anybody. two opposite-phase sine waves = a standing wave = silence. so it all works out somehow.... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 03:43:43 +0000 From: "over pavema" Subject: swallowing these interviews tastes funky liz is alleged to have said: >>I just made a record that I really like, and I worked pretty hard on it. >>I'm the kind of person that likes all sorts of music -- I just want to >>hear really good music and I don't care what it is. I assumed, I guess too >>much, that other people feel that way. Music is art and can be enjoyed at >>many levels for different reasons, but I think for a lot of people it was >>like I was in office and had an affair. There was a sense that a scandal >>had happened.<< plus a bunch of other dumb crap. it's not really worth obsessing over this or the oregonian interview. it might be interesting to take a poll to see which one people think is dumber, but everyone has better thangs to do, i'm sure. this one is bad in part because there's no 'scandal' here. just disappointment that liz thinks so much less of her own abilities than many of us do, or did. it was a closed issue for me, but then these interviews starting popping up. not worth getting dilated pupils over, but still a little annoying. >>At what point did you realize you wanted to work with someone besides >>Michael Penn? >> I just could tell that he tended to like my more serious stuff and he >>wouldn't let me make a fool of myself, and I really needed to make a >>little bit of a fool of myself. He's very intelligent and he really is one >>of those people who can discern and appreciate the subtle emotions in >>lyrics and sound quality and stuff like that.<< well, by all means, don't work with a touch-hole like that! find a dumbbell. worked out great so far, didn't it? >>What I love about music in general is that feeling that makes you stamp >>through the sunroof -- I've done that before when my boyfriend's driving. >>That's exactly what it is to me, that feeling when something like Steve >>Miller comes on and your butt is going and you're like "Yeah, yeah, yeah." >>It's your song, and it's extremely exciting.<< steve miller? Steve Miller? well, okay. i know what she means; i'm not going to give her too much shit about this one, because, hey, i like def leppard, always have. and 'pour some sugar on me', played loud out of a convertible, driving down the street of beach town on a summer night? it's genius. someone on this list was talking about how HWC is a good song because they DO sing to it in the car and it's so catchy and they can't get it out of their head. whoever it was, they said it much more articulately and intelligently than i just did. they made their point very well. but here's the thing. HWC blows in the same way that a new madonna song called, 'Like It's My First Time Having Sex' would blow. been there, done that, and did it better the first time. it's not smart (dorian gray stayed young, the picture got old; so, why is she 'just another dorian gray' if her guy's cum ISN'T around? isn't that backwards? shouldn't it be, 'with your jizz / i'm like another dorian gray'? aren't i being a prick for even noticing?). and it may be catchy, but so is 'nick-nack-paddywhack'. if i find myself singing along to THAT does it make it a great song? people have been singing that silly thing for 100 years, and it's STILL a bad song for anyone over 6. i mean, you can think it's cute and it can remind you of your 5th birthday, but no one would call it a great song. just a bad penny of a song that won't go away. hwc may be catchy, but it's not scandalous, and i'm not all bug-eyed about it. >>Are you surprised by how much this record upset some people? >> I think I feel bad for them... blah blah blah << well, don't. we're fine. bummed a bit, but already moved on. to the ep songs and 'insanity', and FOW and lara cantrell or whoever. people waited 5 fucking years for this, helped boost the publicity machine, kept the name alive and kept saying, 'what's the hold-up? take 12 songs, drop 'em on a cd. we don't care if they're perfect, we're with you. we're on your side!' the result? well, here's 6 turds in a box of chicken nuggets. enjoy, and don't call the turds turds. call them...my essence! and appreciate my smelly discharge, because, really, i like the smell of my own crap. so you should, too. and next time i need to drop a few steamers, can you please buy a couple hundred thousand copies, and concert tickets and t-shirts and whatever, so i can make your no-life-having, no-fun, no-sex boney sad asses ('broken', i think is the word she used recently to describe the people on this list) wait 5 more years for my next BM. it's funny to watch you anticipate and hope... and all any of us is saying is, we believe you can do better. we'll buy this crap. take our money, it's fine. there's a few nuggets and we'll make do. but you're better than this. it's like if jackson pollock decided to emulate leroy nieman. or if thomas pynchon decided to write a romance novel ('hey, i LIKE heaving bosoms! and if you don't, you must be pathetic!'). or if wes anderson decided to direct the next installment of "yes, dear". maybe we were wrong, maybe we over-estimated. that's not liz's fault. but that's also not the worst, saddest sin we could commit. o _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 24 Jul 2003 23:55:43 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: just watched cherish... ... it was okay. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jul 2003 00:35:18 -0400 From: Catherine Molanphy Subject: Re: swallowing these interviews tastes funky > From: "over pavema" > someone on this list was talking about how HWC is a good song because they > DO sing to it in the car and it's so catchy and they can't get it out of > their head. Well, that was *one* of the reasons I said I liked it. Let me be clear... there are songs I get caught in my head that I wish were not there. Not because they're too mainstream or because I don't like them on principle, but simply because I do not like the song. Trying to think of an example... nevermind, you all know what I'm talking about. Being catchy is not enough all on its own... it's a start. It's an element. "Catchy" is neither good nor bad... it just means that it makes the song available to my brain and my emotions... it's up to them to ultimately give the thumbs up or down. It's like getting good shelf-space in the supermarket... you're more likely to buy, but nobody's making you. If there's a (borrowing your metaphor, overpavema) a steamy turd with a glossy label at eye level, I'm still going to take a pass on it. > whoever it was, they said it much more articulately and intelligently than i > just did. they made their point very well. Thanks. :catches thrown bone: > but here's the thing. HWC blows in the same way that a new madonna song > called, 'Like It's My First Time Having Sex' would blow. been there, done > that, and did it better the first time. I guess I just don't look at music that analytically. It's not prose. If Madonna wrote novels, yes, I would pass up a second offering about ersatz virginity. But I mean, if I'm listening to the radio and this great song comes on with an enchanting bassline, creative pop hook, and clever lyrics, and I'm grooving and bopping to it, am I going to stop and say... "Oh wait... I *can't* like this song... it's thematically identical to her 1984 smash hit. Bummer..." I mean, is that what *you* all do? Are your frontal lobes *that* involved in music enjoyment? I'm not saying that one can't *sense*, on a deep instinctual level, when a song is shallow or insincere or a toss-off. But you *feel* it, you don't think it. Jeremy said that HWC struck him as insincere... I can respect that. If a song doesn't speak to you, well then it just doesn't. That's how I feel about "Little Digger" and "Chopsticks" and a small handful of other Phair offerings. I can only describe to you all how different songs make or don't make me feel, and what I think the reasons are. I can't proclaim them shit. Well, yeah I can... but but... you know. With a healthy dose of winking and humility and empathy. > it's not smart (dorian gray stayed young, the picture got old; so, why is she > 'just another dorian gray' if her guy's cum ISN'T around? isn't that > backwards? shouldn't it be, 'with your jizz / i'm like another dorian gray'? > aren't i being a prick for even noticing?). I guess it depends on your interpretation of the Wilde(?) story. To me, what she's saying is that, it doesn't matter how cute her ass is at 36, if she *feels* old, then that inner-oldness is her aging picture in the attic. Without his spooge, she's only a facsimile of youth and beauty, not the real thing. The hot white cummercum gives her the real beauty that she desires, not just a paperthin Dorian-type beauty that's a cover for inner ugliness. > and it may be catchy, but so is 'nick-nack-paddywhack'. if i find myself > singing along to THAT does it make it a great song? If you pick it as your wedding song, or a song to pop into your hi-fi when you're trying to get lucky with someone, then no, NOT a great song. My comments above about the virtuosity of catchiness apply here, but just to flesh it out: nick-nack-paddywhack makes a "great song" if you're trying to entertain a group of disgruntled toddlers. If nick-nack-paddywhack gives you a moment of relative peace on a daycamp field trip, then it can be the best song ever written. > people have been singing that silly thing for 100 years, and it's STILL a bad > song for anyone over 6. i mean, you can think it's cute and it can remind you > of your 5th birthday, but no one would call it a great song. just a bad penny > of a song that won't go away. That song has lasted all these years for a reason... annoying nonsense songs serve their purpose, and work well in specific settings. That don't mean it should be arranged for a small jazz combo or warbled plaintively in the night. But not necessarily a Bad Song either... just very very limited. > hwc may be catchy, but it's not scandalous, and i'm not all bug-eyed about it. Agreed on both the catchy and not scandalous points. And of course I can see that you're not buggy for it. Not liking it is understandable... but the fact that it is perpetually brought up in such venomous tones (not by you, necessarily, overpa) is very revealing, methinks. - --Catherine ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #197 ************************************