From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #126 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, May 21 2003 Volume 06 : Number 126 Today's Subjects: ----------------- interview, who she makes music for, sf tix? ["john kim" ] Re: support-system-digest V6 #124 [John-Paul Finger ] some new liz that's good ["Michael Kaufmann" ] Liz PHAIR ["Mark J. Foxx" ] Filter article [Emil Breton ] RE: Filter article [Charles Pham ] Metro Owner Remembers Liz Shows [BBelbis@aol.com] Liz Phair [TitleTK@aol.com] CHICAGO AIRPLAY [SHERLY McLACHLAN ] EIG was, like, way altruistic, dude! [Stephen Griffes ] Bounced message (Re: support-system-digest V6 #124) [owner-support-system] Re: Shitloads of Money [FinnsSiren@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 01:40:13 -0400 From: "john kim" Subject: interview, who she makes music for, sf tix? can someone please tell me where the original interview is that she says that stuff about her fans? i think it's pretty amazing that she would say something like that. quite speechless. i've heard bits of the new album and am not really sure what to think. hasn't she seen what happens to people who try to go mainstream from the indie world? does she really think she'll never need us again? i think that one day she will come crawling back but we will have lost interest and moved on. i remember a quote of liz from the ROLLING STONE cover issue, "birth of a rockstar" or whatever, and she said "the first album is for my people, the second album is for the people, and the third album is for everyone, and then you do it all over again." or something to that effect. it seems she went through the cycle and is ditching it altogether. anyone have any extra tickets for the flaming lips/liz show in sf? jk. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 06:51:12 -0500 From: "Brooke, Robert" Subject: Liz and my expectations I don't expect Liz to write another EIG and I don't think anybody else does either. I expect Liz to write good music no matter where she takes it. I love all these bands that were just rock bands maybe 10 years ago and now have put electronic music into there style (like BTE) and they still sound good and haven't dropped any fan base or say, "I'm leaving those fans to find new ones". Liz might make it big or this scheme might flop. Burning bridges doesn't help. I wish the best for Liz and I hope she makes a shit load of money. ------------------------------ Date: 20 May 2003 07:23:47 -0500 From: John-Paul Finger Subject: Re: support-system-digest V6 #124 Erin - I'm along with you in hoping that she follows through since I just bought my tickets for the Austin show. At least on Ticketmaster.com she is shown as opening for The Flaming Lips in Dallas (unlike the Stubb's website for the Austin show), so I think you should be okay. I think we'll be okay... no really... we will be or I may go into denial or some other mental condition. John-Paul > Date: Sun, 18 May 2003 16:22:09 -0700 (PDT) > From: Erin > Subject: Liz Phair/Flaming Lips Tour Question > > On the Flaming Lips website it says that Liz will be touring with them until June 3. But at LizPhair.com (her official site) it lists tour days up until June 13. Just wondering if anyone knows for sure if she is playing those last dates. I already bought my ticket for the Flaming Lips on June 10 (Dallas, whooohoo!) but it jsut won't be the same if Liz doesn't play. Even though I get to see her in Austin in September. > > - -Erin ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 08:26:31 -0500 From: "Michael Kaufmann" Subject: some new liz that's good Like the rest of you, I'm having problems with Liz's apparent jump to please some new fans (which seems to be working, at least at one channel by Al's report). And although I don't hate the matrix songs, I'm not wild about them either. However, I am happy to say there are some songs that make me remember what I liked about Liz in the first place (however much that may disinterest her now). "You're in Love with Me" sounds like the title for a typical celebration of new love, and can be heard like that initially. After a few listenings, however, suddenly you hear the "It's sweet. You believe.....You're in love with me." In other words, she's charmed by this new beau's belief in her, in his love for her, but just by saying that it implies she thinks he doesn't really know what he's feeling will ultimately entail. It sounds like a breezy, bouncy tune, but the blithe surface betrays an amused but worldly cynicism about the whole process. Something that pervades most of the numbers--as if I've been through this all before and it's kinda fun still and sweet but it's hard to put much faith into. You hear the cyncism much more clearly on Bionic Eyes, which is a full frontal attack on male vanity and celebration of her womanly wiles. I think there really is some Liz still there, however much she might be choosing to stray. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:18:39 -0500 From: "Mark J. Foxx" Subject: Liz PHAIR I never thought this day would come, but....I don't care about Liz Phair anymore. The new album's pretty cool. More disposable than I was hoping for, but better than most of the stuff out there. I hope it does well. It just now occured to me that it's not really worth discussing anymore. Appropriate that I realize this the same day Buffy ends...and the same week I graduate. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:39:47 -0700 (PDT) From: Emil Breton Subject: Filter article "I'm trying to parody myself. [giggles] I'm trying to become like a washed up, diluted version of my own self and rake it in." I can't, I can't believe it, but it's here on the pages I'm reading. At first it's just hilarious, then it's like "Fuck, how sad! Yet, how brave of her to be admitting it" (bravery, here, is of course relative to the sheer lack thereof she'd shown heretofore while discussing the new songs). Hell, it's almost like she still knows what's going on. After the initial 'shock' of the "leaving [old fans] to go seek other people" comment wore off, I was like "Well, duh." All she's doing is *acknowledging* that we're gonna react a certain way. That's not *quite* the same thing as saying "Fuck you", as a lot of you have been interpreting it. The album itself is the "fuck you" part. As much as I think that she's making a mistake, I can definitely see it her way. Obviously the relationship with her nerdy, CREEPY, drooling Old Fans was going nowhere -- who could fault her for wanting to get out? or for admitting that break-ups are not pretty, and that hearts are going to be broken? After 10 years of flaccidity, it's like, bring on the hot white cum. Of course, the downside is that the 'art' she's now producing is not artful, so you can't discuss it on any non-superficial level. It's just droning in the background (or blaring out of the speakers in the ceiling of your local supermarket), while you're in the other room laughing at how pathetic it all is and 'turning somersaults' trying to come up with good examples of other great-minds-gone-stupid (I've tried it, kids -- it ain't easy). I don't mean to come off sounding 'converted', like I'm joining the lobotomized pockets of supporters (who seem to be seriously dwindling in number). Oh, no. That's not me. I'm just saying, I can see it her way. I'll buy a copy of the album (USED, of course), download the internet-only clips (which will no doubt be just as shitty), and go to her concert. At the concert, I'll heckle her as her performance dictates (and she should expect nothing less, especially if she starts pulling Madonna-type dance moves on-stage. Puh-leez. Talk about beta bands). In the meantime, YES, there are other new (and old) artists that are perfectly capable of taking her place, now that she's hell-bent on rendering herself irrelevant. They're out there, and they're not even hard to find. In the near future there will be lots of fresh faces making similarly great music -- they'll come out of nowhere and charm your pants off, I promise. What a delicious day that will be. On one last (positive) note: I dig the album cover. Sure, it's "cheezcake", but check out that 1962 Fender DuoSonic between her tanned-and-toned, Manhattan Beach legs: it's been chipped and faded and beaten halfway to death. It's older than she is. The symbolism there is deeeeep, man. Think about it. It's sweet how I think I kind of like it. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 12:42:13 -0700 From: Charles Pham Subject: RE: Filter article You can read the entire Liz Phair / Filter interview here: http://filter-mag.com/features/interior.18.html - -----Original Message----- From: Emil Breton [mailto:yeahdude73@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, May 20, 2003 12:40 PM To: support-system@smoe.org Subject: Filter article "I'm trying to parody myself. [giggles] I'm trying to become like a washed up, diluted version of my own self and rake it in." I can't, I can't believe it, but it's here on the pages I'm reading. At first it's just hilarious, then it's like "Fuck, how sad! Yet, how brave of her to be admitting it" (bravery, here, is of course relative to the sheer lack thereof she'd shown heretofore while discussing the new songs). Hell, it's almost like she still knows what's going on. After the initial 'shock' of the "leaving [old fans] to go seek other people" comment wore off, I was like "Well, duh." All she's doing is *acknowledging* that we're gonna react a certain way. That's not *quite* the same thing as saying "Fuck you", as a lot of you have been interpreting it. The album itself is the "fuck you" part. As much as I think that she's making a mistake, I can definitely see it her way. Obviously the relationship with her nerdy, CREEPY, drooling Old Fans was going nowhere -- who could fault her for wanting to get out? or for admitting that break-ups are not pretty, and that hearts are going to be broken? After 10 years of flaccidity, it's like, bring on the hot white cum. Of course, the downside is that the 'art' she's now producing is not artful, so you can't discuss it on any non-superficial level. It's just droning in the background (or blaring out of the speakers in the ceiling of your local supermarket), while you're in the other room laughing at how pathetic it all is and 'turning somersaults' trying to come up with good examples of other great-minds-gone-stupid (I've tried it, kids -- it ain't easy). I don't mean to come off sounding 'converted', like I'm joining the lobotomized pockets of supporters (who seem to be seriously dwindling in number). Oh, no. That's not me. I'm just saying, I can see it her way. I'll buy a copy of the album (USED, of course), download the internet-only clips (which will no doubt be just as shitty), and go to her concert. At the concert, I'll heckle her as her performance dictates (and she should expect nothing less, especially if she starts pulling Madonna-type dance moves on-stage. Puh-leez. Talk about beta bands). In the meantime, YES, there are other new (and old) artists that are perfectly capable of taking her place, now that she's hell-bent on rendering herself irrelevant. They're out there, and they're not even hard to find. In the near future there will be lots of fresh faces making similarly great music -- they'll come out of nowhere and charm your pants off, I promise. What a delicious day that will be. On one last (positive) note: I dig the album cover. Sure, it's "cheezcake", but check out that 1962 Fender DuoSonic between her tanned-and-toned, Manhattan Beach legs: it's been chipped and faded and beaten halfway to death. It's older than she is. The symbolism there is deeeeep, man. Think about it. It's sweet how I think I kind of like it. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:04:21 EDT From: BBelbis@aol.com Subject: Metro Owner Remembers Liz Shows here's an article from the chicago sun-times highlighting the 20th anniversary of metro in chicago. in an interview with metro's owner, he reminisces about 20 memorable shows. liz made the cut. here's the link: http://www.suntimes.com/output/derogatis/sho-sunday-metro18.html Brian NP: EIG/WS.......(shaking my head, thinking about what a liz used to be) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 17:45:54 EDT From: TitleTK@aol.com Subject: Liz Phair I agree with Emil (strangely I always I agree with Emil), after reading Liz's comments, I started writing a big rant about how disgusting it all was, but suddenly it occured to me . . . why should I care what Liz Phair thinks about me? Because quite frankly, I don't think I'd like her very much either. But yes, the insulting part is the music. I too, will be there to cheer during the Fuck and Run's and Supernova's and jeer during the Extraordinary's and Why Can't I's. My only real fear is that her concert is going to be completely geared towards the new stuff . . . Also, while I agree there is some great music out there . . . I can't agree with everyone that it's easy to just say "okay I'm going to go listen to other stuff now." Why did Liz have to be so goddamned good at the beginning? And while I agree the whole album has some intriguing elements, it's simply not up to her standards. You just can't compare: you say my mother is mine you put your trucks up on the bed next to him so he can get a better look at them you say this one's my favorite one this one you can't have i got it from my dad to: You said that you were in touch with the draft resistors In case the big boys called you up You're gonna have to let 'em dick you around But don't let 'em make you do what you can't live with Tonight in bed with me sleeping You looked like you were just a little kid "Shane," I said, "You've gotta watch your ass Yes, the first is kinda sweet and pretty, but the second exists on a whole other level of writing. It's scary, it's funny, it's ambiguous. Comparing the two (and I'm sorry you have to) just shows how lazy she has become. I suppose we'll always have the old stuff, but when one could be the best lyriscist in modern rock -- it's hard to move on. But then again, I suppose I'm more of an Anthony Michael Hall "type." james ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 18:05:49 -0700 (PDT) From: SHERLY McLACHLAN Subject: CHICAGO AIRPLAY Hey to All, I don't usually listen to the radio, but the past few weeks I've been listening to see if any stations would play the new stuff. Last week I was on vacation in the pacific north west and thought, ok I'm closer to LA maybe I'll here something out here. I didn't! I came back to work yesterday (Mon) and in the first 5 hrs. I herd Why Can't I twice, on 101.9 the Mix. I herd it twice again today. So far it looks like her plan is working. The company seems to be backing her and she's getting the airplay. I'm happy for her on that note. I found the Filter article a little disturbing. I'm wondering if those statements are word for word. I hope not cause it sounds like she wants to be a tiny bopper queen. We have enough of those. Don't we make new ones every other week on TV? It really sucks that the industry has made music all about popularity and pushed talent to the back seat. Someone made a comment about her being one of the best lyrists of all time. I completely agree with that. Lets hope it's not over for Liz, cause I really don't want to go see L. Phizzy in concert (someone elses pet name for her). And if she does some kind of bullshit dance moves like Madonna I'm going to die laughing right there. I'm laughing right now just thinking how hysterical that would be. Really though I think were taking this all alittle far. She told us ahead of time that the Matrix stuff was designed to get her airplay. I'm waiting for the unproduced stuff the stuff that didn't make the cut to come trickling out as she put it. That's all I have to report! Have a good one! SMc The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 20 May 2003 22:43:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Stephen Griffes Subject: EIG was, like, way altruistic, dude! I hope that "Why Cant I" gets shitloads of airplay and gets really popular...I want my local bar that has karaoke nite to order it so i can belt it out after one too many. Andrea U i think said it...something like "if you dont like the new liz then make something better. i'd love to hear it." that is so right on. (liz phair couldn't have said it better) i am really disappointed by some of the attitudes on this list lately. if you dont like the new liz, that's cool, and you should express that opinion. however, saying she's selfish because you don't like her current sound is just...messed up. Even if you don't like the new record, im sure you got SOMETHING out of Liz Phair or you wouldnt be here. and now that you cant get something out of her because she's doing things differently (or for whatever reason), you're pissed off. and SHE'S the one who is selfish?! i totally agree that some people really DO need to find something else to listen to if they are so bothered by liz phair making a slickly-produced mainstream pop record. get over it! find some new indie rock lady to listen to, but learn your lesson and don't get too emotionally attached next time. steve. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:44:26 -0400 From: Tyler Coates Subject: Shitloads of Money "Its nice to be liked But its better by far to get payed I know that most of the friends that I have don't really see it that way But if you could give 'em each one wish How much do you wanna bet? They'd wish success for themselves and their friends and That would include lots of money." I've been reading the posts for a couple of weeks now and I've gotten so tired of the same comments about how selfish Liz is and how disappointed her fans are because she has "sold out." I hate to break it to you folks, but being a musician is a profession. She isn't out there just for the hell of it. You don't put your blood, sweat, and tears, as well as your money, into a record just because you're a nice person and want to give your fans a few songs to listen to. It's her job. I think Liz is a terrific artist, and it's about damn time she's considered sucessful by people other than the indie rock fans. And I think if Liz Phair is what everybody's listening to, then the world is a better place. The worst record Liz could make is still a hundred times better than the pop music that's topping the charts today. I'm looking forward to the new album, simply because I love Liz Phair and her music, and I'm not going to judge the album based on the fact that she wants to branch out to a wider audience. - -- Tyler Coates coatesjt@jmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 01:11:29 -0400 From: owner-support-system@smoe.org (by way of Jase ) Subject: Bounced message (Re: support-system-digest V6 #124) From: "overpavement" To: Subject: Re: support-system-digest V6 #124 Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 00:29:13 -0400 another pontificating post from a pontificator who really tries not to be, but realizes as he hits 'send' that he really is one and is sorry right up front... >Q: Are you worried about alienating some of your prior indie-ish fan base? >Because even without hearing the album yet, the people on your fan sites >seem to feel betrayed. >A: It's appropriate that they feel that way. Because what I'm doing is >leaving them to go seek other people. much hand-wringing over this exchange, i know. but i read it a different way. i read her saying she's leaving the members of her indie-ish fan base to go seek other indie-ish artists for themselves. not that she's leaving the audience to go find another one. in a different interview (or maybe the same one, who gives a drip?), she says that she's gotten some criticism for her new music, but (paraphrasing here) 'none of it has stuck.' and that's not 100% wrong. none of the criticism of the music itself has stuck, because it is generally presumptuous and a bit pompous ('i know the difference between a good song and a bad one, and these new songs are bad ones and the early songs were good ones! can't you see the logic!? what's *wrong* with you people!?' well, for starters, it's not that easy. but i digress...). remember, springsteen, patti smith, r.e.m., and probably most of the independent performers we all know and love, they've all been told at one time or another: 'write a hit. or stay small-time.' the ones who could do it, they did it. the ones who couldn't, well, most of them stayed small-time. which is fine with us. we don't have to live their lives. but i would bet you there are days when juliana hatfield wishes like hell that 'universal heartbeat' had been a bigger hit. or 'my sister', even. she was trying to write a hit, even if she wanted it to be a cool or a non-linear one. didn't pan out, unfortunately, although she's continued to make vivid, worthwhile music. i really, really loved reading john strohm's tour diary from the last blake babies tour. it was so familiar from my own group wanderings (not with a band, but not that different, either), where the driving gets weary and the towns are hard to remember, and then out of the blue you have some awesome experience (in their case, pretty much whenever dando showed up, but other times, too), and it's so great you can't stand it. but that passes, and it's back to the bus (or van in their case) and tooling along the highway, usually on overnight trips so you don't even see the scenery. that's cool when you're 22. when you're 33? not so much. so, having a few hits under your belt, and being able to be with a stronger label and play better venues and make more money so you don't have to go back to the dives and the vans and the overnight drives, it's better. so, i don't mind liz trying to write hits. she's not really capable of doing it on her own (meaning only that her talent is a bit too quirked or off-beat or (not sure i buy this, but others say it so i'll give it a shot) intelligent), so she's working with people she thinks can do what her label wants, get her some sort of musical and tour-y cushion, and make some dough. no crime there. patti, stipe, bruce, cobain, green day, they've pretty much all bitten the bullet and built a hit song or two. on purpose. others tried, and couldn't, but they are rarely any less willing to make the effort (failing is not the same as telling the label to fuck off... it's failing to write a hit is all). *occasionally*, *rarely* a band will ignore the whole thing. sleater-kinney comes to mind. but i wonder, even there. was 'you're no rock-n-roll fun' not an attempt to write a hit? i know it's subject matter was serious, but they did a cool video and it was a fun song and deserved to be heard. but it didn't quite click as a 'hit', did it? writing hits is an art if you do it well. aaaanyway, point is, i don't crucify liz for wanting hits and for working w/hitmakers. but i DO think dana's and other people's criticism *does* stick when we say (and i've been saying this for like 18 months) that if you're taking 5 fucking years between records, then you have a lot of nerve to call yourself anything but a part-timer, not an artist (artists work hard, actually). and that sticks. i've only heard the 4 songs everyone else has heard (when you count 'take a look'). they're okay. actually, 'take a look' may be my least-favorite (although 'rock me' is moving up fast on the outside in that contest). so, they're not awesome songs, won't affect me like some others.... that's okay. but the dismissive nature of this whole endeavor, that's what sticks with me. 'uh, *yawn*, hey, here's this thing i worked on for a few months. please pay money for it. i really think it's the best thing i've ever -- hey, cool! tivo recorded three episodes of 'coupling' in one day! wow! now, where was i? oh, yeah, um, please pay me. i did this work, see, and i am releasing it now.' that's how it strikes me, so that's what gets my knickers in a knot. not the songs themselves. r.e.m. released 'green', for chrissakes. i didn't give up on them. U2 did 'pop'. forgive and forget. they followed up with a classic. but i *never* got the feeling that they weren't trying hard every time out. trying for hits, but also trying to achieve a goal, build a rep, and then live up to it. that's the gig. my opinion, and like i always say: we didn't go murder a bunch of people with darker skin and mustaches after being lied to by our own leaders for nothing. we did it so i could get on a soapbox and criticize a singer! couple other unrelateds: the new evan dando cd is worth hearing. understated and featuring a bad drummer, it's very great to hear him back in the studio, sounding cleaned-up and healthy, but still mr. dando in the best sense. 'why do you do this to yourself?' is more self-examined than it's usually comfortable to hear... the new apple music store is pretty great (so easy to find songs and download 'em, i don't mind paying 99-cents at all -- no queues, no getting the wrong file or some dumbass lying about what's there to be downloaded, very easy). no one is reading this far down in this post, so i'll also mention that jonathan richman is singing the jingle for the new kohl's commercial with the ice cream truck. i didn't mind when liz did the apple or the gap commercials, but i am very happy for jonathan that he's making a bit of $ re-purposing one of his classics. HE is a really unique voice who never took shit off of anybody, gave back the advance dollars from warners rather than write or look the way they told him to back when he was 20 and could've used the break, and never deviated from the course he wanted to follow. he's a hero. so's evan dando. they're all around, you just have to look sometimes... they just usually aren't doing what you wish they were. they're doing what THEY wish they were. o ver and out ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 01:10:11 -0400 From: FinnsSiren@aol.com Subject: Re: Shitloads of Money THANK GOD FOR THIS POST Nic. ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #126 ************************************