From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #114 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Friday, May 9 2003 Volume 06 : Number 114 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Liz in Jane [Kate Stewart ] new liz, nytimes article about matrix w/ liz quote ["john kim" ] why can't i? ["dana p." ] Re: Bounced message [Emil Breton ] Re: Bounced message [Jase ] [none] [TitleTK@aol.com] Happy Birthday, Jase! [mollieclarins@att.net] Liz / Jane [Kenneth Lee ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 7 May 2003 22:30:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Kate Stewart Subject: Liz in Jane I'll write it out- but be warned, it is pretty lame. Wouldn't it be great if interviewers asked her about, uh, her music? And by the way, Miss Avril is on the cover, as "The Big Loser" of the celebrity poll.... the logic of this escapes me. Speaking of jumping sharks, I think Jane jumped hers about two years ago. But that's another story. Here 'tis: It must be cool because she does it by Erin Flaherty, who refuses to sing karaoke I'm nervous about asking a bad-ass like Liz Phair superficial hair and makeup questions, until she says, "Nooo, I love talking about that stuff!" Her six-part preshow regimen includes: honey-blond highlights; heavy eyeliner usually applied in the back of a car en route to a concert ("It doesn't have to be precise- just really intense to show up onstage"); perfume ("I borrowed a Stella McCartney dress and the model who wore it before me left this amazing scent on it. If I have to make 15 phone calls, I _will_ find out what it is"); facials with Epicuren products; sobriety ("I hardly ever drink and don't really smoke. I know I'm supposed to be a rock star, but I feel so much better now"); and good sex (listen to "H.W.C." on her new self-titled album for details; see our review on page 170). Don't worry though- it's not like she's going to quit singing to work at a spa or anything. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 03:01:35 -0400 From: "john kim" Subject: new liz, nytimes article about matrix w/ liz quote i love it when people tell other people to "get off the list." haha. you sound so stupid. you guys crack me up. i think people are definitely entitled to their own opinions. one of them being that the new liz sucks, the other being "if you think so, then get off the list." of course, some opinions are more valid than others. while you may not like the new album, you might still love liz phair. and want to see her perform live at secret shows, and be made aware of interviews in mags b/c you're still interested, etc. that's why i'm on the list, personally. please be open-minded to your fellow listers. liz phair will never stop being liz phair, but hyper-produced collaborations are hardly "vintage liz"--i.e. recording silly songs on an answering machine. liz going pop is not like dylan going electric. terrible analogy. i always thought she was more like our generation's joni mitchell, but she's turning more into michelle phillips. just thoughts i've been kicking around from skimming the list. OK. so there is an article in the NYTimes about the matrix and how they are the hot new songwriting team. there was talk about liz. relevant liz quotes that will make some of you cringe, following: One of the Matrix's more unlikely recent collaborators was Liz Phair, one of the most important female singer-songwriters to emerge from the indie-rock underground in the 90's. "I definitely have taken some arrows, but it's not any that stick," Ms. Phair said of her fans' reaction to the news that she was recording with the Matrix. "I'm very confident about the record and why I worked with them." Ms. Phair recorded four songs with the Matrix and, like many of the artists who work with them, she decided to use all of those tracks on her album. Also like others, she was originally attracted to the Matrix because of their work with Ms. Lavigne. "I remember hearing `Complicated' and being almost jealous," Mr. Phair recalled. "I thought, `Aw, that's what I want to sound like.' " _________________________________________________________________ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 06:44:40 -0500 From: "Brooke, Robert" Subject: RE: new liz, nytimes article about matrix w/ liz quote >>she was originally attracted to the Matrix because of their work with Ms. Lavigne. "I remember hearing `Complicated' and being almost jealous," Mr. Phair recalled. "I thought, `Aw, that's what I want to sound like.' "<< I can't believe I just read this! I'm gonna throw up!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 12:12:09 -0400 From: owner-support-system@smoe.org (by way of Jase ) Subject: Bounced message From: "Jeremy Rea" Subject: If you don't support Liz Phair you can go straight to Hell >Why are those of us who dislike the new Liz music penned as being stuck up >and judgmental when I have never once judged anyone on this list? I don't >know why I find this so personally offenive, but I do. I would love to >hear >Liz on the radio . . . but I will ask one more time . . . please "explain >it >to me" how this is indeed vintage Liz. An open letter to the dissidents- Why are you so clueless? This is vintage Liz, through and through, only better, and more refined. She's going to show the world how to rock in your teenage mid-life pants, and she's doing it her way. She's taken her patented, warbly, quirky Liz style into the studio and stripped away the musical foibles, the bum notes, the low-budget production value, and replaced with a sunny sheen, a fresh coat of paint, and lots of attitude. And she's gone further than ever before creatively. She's taken her individual style and scraped off the rough edges, and called in the most talented producers working in the business to blunt her sharp points. She's realized that rebeling against verse chorus verse is a trend that has played itself out, and that now the way to go is verse chorus verse chorus,and even better, on her most adventurous songs, verse chorus chorus verse chorus chorus chorus. Her ruthless efficiency has extended into all areas. Why add any dimension, or confuse the listener with an arcane reference, when repeating "You're like my favorite underwear" or "Gimme your hot white cum" about a million times says so much more? If you'd stop being so fucking snobbish, and keep pining for Liz to do a bongload and write another Exile in Guyville, you'd realize the artistic merit of drivel. jeremy "clever quote" -cool person ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 12:48:24 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: Bounced message Jeremy wrote: >Subject: If you don't support Liz Phair you can go straight to Hell >An open letter to the dissidents- > >Why are you so clueless? Why are those who like the album so condescending towards those who don't? It's a matter of opinion and taste -- there's no right or wrong. I'm tired of seeing people being talked down to by people who don't agree with them. Discourse and opposing viewpoints are cool, telling people to go to Hell and calling them clueless is not. (As for those telling other people to get off the list, I won't even go there.) When I see messages like this on the list, it really pisses me off. I'm not even one of the ones who should really feel defensive either, since I do like the record more than others seem to. >This is vintage Liz, through and through, only >better, and more refined. She's going to show the world how to rock in your >teenage mid-life pants, and she's doing it her way. I can see how this album would be a real eye-opener for a lot of teenagers, but I do have to admit, this is the one album of Liz's where the lyrics don't as much speak to me personally, as someone in my mid-20s. Of course, lyrics aren't the full picture, but part of my initial attraction to Liz's music was based on the lyrics to songs like "Stratford-on-Guy" and "Divorce Song." Few of the new songs offer anything as complex or thoughtful as those ones, in my opinion. >And she's gone further than ever before creatively. She's taken her >individual style and scraped off the rough edges, and called in the most >talented producers working in the business to blunt her sharp points. She's >realized that rebeling against verse chorus verse is a trend that has played >itself out, and that now the way to go is verse chorus verse chorus,and even >better, on her most adventurous songs, verse chorus chorus verse chorus >chorus chorus. So, making yourself sound like every other female artist on the radio is going further creatively, rather than refining your own distinctive style? Somehow I don't buy into that. But then again, I'm also someone who finds an artist like Kristin Hersh a lot more interesting and exciting than someone like Avril Lavigne. C'est la vie. I have to wonder if people are giving Liz extra credit here just because she's Liz. Would the same people not be a little more critical if, say, it was Elvis Costello or Aimee Mann suddenly working with the Matrix or some other ubiquitous production team in an attempt to get on the radio? Be honest. Also, while the Matrix are good as what they do, I wouldn't call them the "most talented producers working in the business." They're good at getting a certain sound and making records that radio will want to play, but I don't think they're doing anything particularly innovative or groundbreaking. Those would more be the criteria I'd base "most talented" on, rather than making something that blends in with everything else. >If you'd stop being so fucking snobbish, and keep pining for Liz to do a >bongload and write another Exile in Guyville, you'd realize the artistic >merit of drivel. I don't think anyone is being snobbish any more than posts like yours are. Talking down to anyone isn't ever going to score you points, you know. Express an opinion, but don't be rude to someone because you don't agree with theirs. Also, as a lot of other people have already posted, no one's looking for Liz to write another _Exile in Guyville_ -- only to make an album that's on par with it creatively and in terms of quality. That also makes the assumption that those people only like that particular record -- what do you make then of the fact that those same people also like _Whip-Smart_ and _whitechocolatespaceegg_? It's not all about any one particular record. Look at someone like PJ Harvey -- she's never made the same record twice, and each new album leads her into some uncharted territory. But, at the same time, her music remains as singular and adventurous. The quality of her albums is consistent, even though musically they're quite different. Jase ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:21:01 -0700 From: "dana p." Subject: why can't i? i don't get it, either--why people are taking the criticism so personally. no one's saying "oh, man, you must be a fucking idiot for liking these...." what gives? it's really annoying. like bennett said, no one's trying to ruin anyone else's life or run them off the list. this is a *discussion* list, no? so we're discussing. why is that bad? i just don't get it. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 May 2003 10:32:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Emil Breton Subject: Re: Bounced message How refreshing to see Jase "stickin' it to 'em" on his own mailing list, finally! The whole idea behind my wacky rant a few weeks ago (apart from the self-parody) was to "shock and awe" people into a discussion, as I felt that even those who share my views were playing it way too safe. Good work. HOWEVER... I'm pretty sure that the message Jase responded to was a joke. A damned good one, too! (Maybe I'm wrong?) It just reads like a send-up of some of the more asinine claims made about the album (e.g. the writer calls the album 'vintage Liz' and then offers solid -- and hilarious -- evidence to the contrary; equating rebellion with the stripping-away of 'rough edges' and conforming to radio-conventional song structures; suggesting to us bytchez that if we'd just open our eyes, we'd realize how brilliant the new 'drivel' is). Brilliant! Now, if I'm wrong about this... 'Yikes' is all I have to offer in terms of rebuttal. By the way, I dug the PJ Harvey example, Jase. You are soooo right. __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 14:04:26 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: Bounced message Steve wrote: >HOWEVER... I'm pretty sure that the message Jase >responded to was a joke. A damned good one, too! >(Maybe I'm wrong?) It just reads like a send-up of >some of the more asinine claims made about the album >(e.g. the writer calls the album 'vintage Liz' and >then offers solid -- and hilarious -- evidence to the >contrary; equating rebellion with the stripping-away >of 'rough edges' and conforming to radio-conventional >song structures; suggesting to us bytchez that if we'd >just open our eyes, we'd realize how brilliant the new >'drivel' is). Brilliant! Oh shit, I just re-read that post and I'm sure you're right. I guess it was the first couple of lines that set me on edge and from there on, I just wasn't reading closely enough. I entirely missed the "drivel" comment at the end and I read the parts leading up to as being sincere, since there have been similar posts made recently. I'm going to step away from the computer now and go back to celebrating my birthday. Maybe not quite as hardcore, though -- obviously it's not a good idea for me to kill off any more brain cells. I need to hold on to the ones I still have. Embarrassedly, Jase ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 16:33:52 -0400 From: TitleTK@aol.com Subject: [none] All I can say to Jeremy is bravo! I think Emil and Jase are right -- this is an incredibly well-written joke. Did I dream this before or did I read a message this morning where Liz said she wanted to sound just like Avril? Excuse me my head is stuck to some porcelain . . . james ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 22:54:58 +0000 From: mollieclarins@att.net Subject: Happy Birthday, Jase! Hmmm...hope this isn't posting twice but I got some weird error message. So... Happy Birthday! I hope you had a wonderful day! XOXO, Joselle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 May 2003 19:34:16 -0700 From: Kenneth Lee Subject: Liz / Jane Hi all, The Jane article / picture is now available for viewing at Mesmerizing. Enjoy! - -Ken kenmlee@ix.netcom.com MeSmErIzInG - AnOtHeR LiZ PhAiR WeBsItE http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2471/ ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #114 ************************************