From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #107 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Thursday, May 1 2003 Volume 06 : Number 107 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Bounced message [owner-support-system@smoe.org (by way of Jase ] Re: "i lost my choo!" [Jase ] RE: Copy protection on advance cds of the new record ["INMAN, DAVID B" ] the debate ["Chris DeLisle" ] Re: support-system-digest V6 #106 ["Michael Kaufmann" ] hot white irony [fallout@purdue.edu] Supporting some Support Systemers [Michael Carapella ] Copy protected CDs and the new album [The Discographer ] OT: Sort of [Al Madrid ] RE: Peppermint saviors of our souls ["INMAN, DAVID B" ) Subject: Bounced message From: Dermich@aol.com Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 02:05:24 EDT Subject: Later... To: support-system@smoe.org Hey all, I've decided that I'm done here and will be unsubbing from Support System. I've been a member of this list or its predecessors in some form for many years, but the signal/noise ratio has simply grown too low for me to deal with it any more. I've met some great people here, but I just don't need the negativity. I shouldn't have to get worked up over a mailing list putatively devoted to one of my favorite performers of all time. My parting thoughts: 1. As I've written here before, it's called "show business," not "art sharing." Liz Phair signed on the dotted line a decade ago in order to try to make a living out of her quirky little Girly Sound songs. If her aspirations hadn't been to make it in the biz, she would have continued giving homemade cassettes to friends. I wish more people understood the difference between art and showbiz. It's exceedingly difficult to make any impact in show business, and you are frankly very ignorant if you believe ANY artist you hear on the radio, see on TV or read about in a magazine is there because of some magical talent that just happened to get discovered by an agent or an A&R rep. (Please understand that I mean "ignorant" in its purest sense: not stupid, but unaware of facts.) And those artists, like Eddie Vedder, who try to give the illusion that they didn't cannily and single-mindedly claw and scrape their way to prominence simply take their fans for fools. This is a vicious, horrible business, and nobody gets anywhere on talent alone. 2. If you don't like where Liz is going, that's fine. I suppose you'll want to vent about it, since you've loved her and invested a lot in her in the past. That's your prerogative. But I think it's ridiculous to call people who DO like her new direction vapid, dumb, sheepish, or any of the other insults I've been reading here for weeks. That's taste, folks. I like horror movies. I like the Human League. I like "Blind Date." But I can't drink cheap white zinfandel, and I dislike musicals. However, I don't think people who sip their Franzia while watching an outdoor production of _Annie Get Your Gun_ are morons for liking different things. OK, over and out. Nice to know most of you. Derek ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 29 Apr 2003 23:19:51 -0700 From: "dana p." Subject: "i lost my choo!" so is it just me or did anyone else notice how hilariously ironic it is she's appearing at an Apple store, where they feature the nifty iPod, and you can't copy any of her new songs? heeee.... aahhhhh.... anyway. i started noticing last summer that several new disks of mine are locked; i can't copy anything. sucks.... i was wondering if they'd lock her CD. hmmmmm. as for the "little lolita" clothing debate, i can't help but think of that "sex and the city" ep where samantha wants to dress carrie in this little pink frou-frou number and carrie balks. samantha goes, "what's the problem? i've seen you at cocktail parties in less" and carrie rebuts: "true, but after at a certain point, you gotta cover it up...!" aging gracefully or vanity's last gasp? these are my choices?? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 03:03:06 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: "i lost my choo!" dp wrote: >so is it just me or did anyone else notice how hilariously ironic it is >she's appearing at an Apple store, where they feature the nifty iPod, and >you can't copy any of her new songs? heeee.... aahhhhh.... anyway. i >started noticing last summer that several new disks of mine are locked; i >can't copy anything. sucks.... i was wondering if they'd lock her CD. I'm wondering how that's going to work, though. From what I understand, most copy-protected CDs aren't able to be played in CD-Rom drives, yet there's supposed to be enhanced content on the disc, including the "Why Can't I?" video and a secure link to the internet-only EP. Maybe they're just doing this with some of the promo copies (which don't have the extra content), so that the songs will be less likely to find their way onto file-sharing services before the album's release. Since the album is a bit of a departure from Liz's past work, maybe they're worried that a lot of older fans might not pick up the new record if they have a chance to hear it beforehand. I mean, just look at the reactions on the list so far -- there seems to be an even split between those who do like the new album and those who don't. I can understand some of the reasoning behind the copy-protected discs, but at the same time, I'm a little peeved because it infringes on my fair-use rights. What about people who want to burn a copy to listen to in the car, or those of us who enjoy making mix CDs for our own use of music we already own? I mean, if worse comes to worst, I can always hook my CD player up to my computer through my soundcard and record the songs as .wav files using Cool Edit, but it'd be a lot of extra work. I'm not sure I could really be bothered. Ah well. Jase ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:10:31 -0500 From: "INMAN, DAVID B" Subject: RE: Copy protection on advance cds of the new record i think the record companies are taking a huge risk with this "copy controlled" disc thing. if folks aren't able to burn & download copies of their cd's, who are they gonna blame for their terrible choices of artists? according to the industry, the decline in sales is due to copywrite infringement & has nothing to do with their practices - so if they eliminate this - might their true faults be revealed... - -----Original Message----- From: Charles M [mailto:discographer@comcast.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:01 AM To: support-system@smoe.org Subject: Copy protection on advance cds of the new record I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the advance discs for the new album are marked "Copy Controlled" on the back insert and on the disc itself. The drive in my computer makes an awful racket when the disc is spinning. I successfully ripped MP3 and AAC (MPEG-4) files, but they have some minor artifacts -- occasional popping, etc. I've not yet compared playback from my audio CD player against that of the computer, but I'll try a A/B taste-test in the next few days. My guess is that the disc employs something akin to the Cactus Data Shield (see the article here for more info -- http://www.theregister.com/content/archive/27960.html) to make computer-based playback/copying/ripping less simple and attractive. This is my first encounter with a "protected" audio cd; let's hope the commercial disc doesn't have the same "feature". Charles http://mywebpages.comcast.net/discographer/ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 08:05:46 -0500 From: "INMAN, DAVID B" Subject: RE: don ho love songs AMEN, brotha!!!!!!!!!!!! - -----Original Message----- From: ReallyHip@aol.com [mailto:ReallyHip@aol.com] Sent: Monday, April 28, 2003 5:49 PM To: LilRussianGirl@aol.com; support-system@smoe.org Subject: Re: don ho love songs If you don't like the new liz, get off the list. - -Michael ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:57:26 -0400 From: "Chris DeLisle" Subject: the debate the latest debate on Liz's new trajectory reminds me of the sides chosen when Dylan went electric in 1965. i wonder if anyone will shout out "Judas!" at one of her concerts... i guess every rock and roll legend needs a little controversy in their history. i suppose Liz is at least ORIGINAL in her choice of controversies (or have there been plenty of genius songwriters who decided to try to appeal to the masses a little more that i'm forgetting?): - -- she didn't end her career after her peak (like the Police & Jane's Addiction) - -- she didn't continue to exist after her drummer died (like the Who) - -- she didn't shack up, fall in love and spend all her time with Yoko Ono - -- she didn't rip a picture of the Pope in two on Saturday Night Live and tell everyone to fight the real enemy (though wouldn't it be cool if she ripped a picture of Christina Aguilera in two and said the same? (Editor's Note: i understand Sinead O'Connor probably wouldn't be considered a "rock and roll legend" by most)) - -- she didn't release an album called "Pop" (U2) or "Up" (REM...and pretty much everyone else out there (actually, for me, REM's "Monster" was the real stinker, and hopefully "Liz Phair" isn't the new "Monster")) - -- she didn't start a movie career like Art Garfunkel...uh, wait a minute... i suppose there are plenty of great controversies i'm leaving out. anyway, i reserve all judgment until i hear the entire album and Liz out on tour. i remember a few of the songs from the "wcse" tour blew away the original versions ("White Chocolate Space Egg," especially). chris deLisle ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:52:31 -0500 From: "Michael Kaufmann" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V6 #106 The whole disk copy protection business strikes me as suggestive of the whole weird turn Liz's career has taken lately. From underground demotape indie queen to encrypted CD Avril-wannabe (a wannabe of the original queen liz). Maybe the answer lies in Liz's own admittedly casual approach to her career. Her listeners care a lot more than she does about it. In other words, she's a diletantte. She plays at making music, at making videos, at photography. That was part of her charm initially of course, but everyone expected her to grow out of it, and it doesn't look like she will. That story about how she turned up on Soak Up the Sun says it all. Crow got her doing background vocals so she'd stop making a racket playing basketball. She fell into her career and now she periodically falls in and out of it with the same irregular regularity. In a way that may help prevent this less appealing elements of the latest turn from staying once the latest phase is done or the latest manager (who I suspect it behind much of the matrix push) looks elsewhere. She'll fall into something else. She always does. Let's hope it's less avril and more liz. I'm betting on the latter. Mike >From: Charles M >Subject: Copy protection on advance cds of the new record > >I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the advance discs for >the new album are marked "Copy Controlled" on the back insert and on >the disc itself. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:50:39 -0500 From: fallout@purdue.edu Subject: hot white irony >Good heavens yes! This song is a blackly ironic and (I'm guessing) angry rebuttal to that scientific >'study' that was mentioned here a few weeks back. It's as topical and political as anything from >Sleater-Kinney or Ani Difranco, and the fact that it's not aggressively preachy and is a damned >catchy pop-song totally apart from its message is what makes me claim this object-lesson in >subversion as the best song on the album (by far!) and a welcome throwback to the kind of >uninhibitedly tasteless irony that's all over "Girlysound" but increasingly lost on all her albums >since. This, in different ways, has been mentioned a lot, and I think it's incredibly wrong, and speaks in the same deluded voice as "these songs really rock." They may not be bad, but they're aren't special, original, or particularly well thought out. There is no "wink, wink" in the song. They did a take of "Favorite" and then one of the eight heads leaned into the mic and said, "Okay, let's try that again with the 'cum' chorus." The album will not cross over. There's no buzz. It, in all likelihood, will be critically panned, and commercially unsuccessful. Liz Phair has subverted nothing, she has outsmarted nothing. Any irony or secret agenda she may have truly had, or believed, or portrayed is all just smiles on the way to the gas chamber. Lots of people/bands make bad albums, but, in the best bands, there was always the knowledge that they would make another, better album, or at least try harder. When Liz Phair is bitten by this, she'll be gone for ten years or more, unless she needs the money, and how sad is that? If I'm wrong I'm a cynic, but if I'm right I'm right. jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:21:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Michael Carapella Subject: Supporting some Support Systemers The good news is that amongst the mud slinging there is some really good and valuable debate here. It's kinda like listening past the out of tune guitar and sparseness and roughness of Strange Loop to hear the really cool song that's in there. I think Trent summarized what a lot of us may be feeling (sans the reactionary emotional angst of other posts including my own) when he said: "The catch is that there are plenty of people who can write good pop songs, but appreciably fewer who can write songs like those on "Exile" and "Whip-smart" and thus while I might appreciate these pop songs in and of themselves I can't help also regretting that they're taking the place of something immeasurably more unique and valuable (IMO!)". -Trent On the other end of the spectrum, we have this quote: "i'm sure she wasn't that into working with the Matrix, and I'm doubly sure that she didn't actually write those songs, cowriting credits or not." - -bennet All too often I run into people that are "sure" of something that they are completely wrong about, but I have to say, you're the first I've run into that is "doubly sure" about something that's dead wrong. Suppressing my urge to get sarcastic and insulting, I'll say just this: According to Liz, she WAS into working with the Matrix and I believe that anyone with even a passing familiarity with Ms. Phair's writing style can clearly see that she had a strong hand in writing the three songs on the website. Assuming that you are unable to pick out the signature Liz musical concepts, are you crediting the lyrics to the Matrix too? The last time I saw this kind of reaction was (and I'll date myself now) on Madonna's Like a Prayer album. It's the only Madonnna album I ever listened to all the way through, but I'm very familiar with her style from the incessant radio play over the years. People were saying that she didn't participate in writing many of those songs, which is equally preposterous (sp.). Then there were those who thought there was "studio trickery" going on because Shania Twain didn't tour. Her voice ain't that great anyway, and it was CLEARLY her--her voice was barely processed. Contrast that with Janet Jackson who has to be quadruple tracked to get her voice to begin to have any body at all. Anyway, Liz did write those songs--just so you know. BTW, I'm not the "Michael" that signed posts the last couple of days, so I'll sign using my full name. - -Michael Carapella __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 12:46:39 -0400 From: The Discographer Subject: Copy protected CDs and the new album David makes an interesting point here: the industry will have no excuses for their poor business decisions if copy protection becomes widespread. On the other hand, this week's debut of Apple's online music service may signal that record companies are starting to get the message. The service uses DRM technology but imposes no restrictions on CD burning and downloading to an MP3 player and (to my mind) reasonable restrictions on direct file sharing designed to limit distribution on digital networks. And, yes, the service does have material by Liz. I did more testing on the copy-protected advance CD and a comparison with the prerelease version of the album that was floating around last month. The overall sound quality of MP3 and AAC files ripped from the copy-protected advance CD (using my Macintosh) does not seem dramatically degraded versus playback on my regular stereo or versus MP3s ripped from the unprotected prerelease version. However, there ARE artefacts -- popping and other stuff, as if you're spinning noisy vinyl. The 97% of you with Windoze machines, read this: I couldn't rip anything using a peecee. The player located on the advance disc took over my computer when I popped it in and I couldn't get around it to rip anything. Sounds similar to the scheme described yesterday by the chap from Australia (sorry, I've forgotten your name). It's well within the Fair Use doctrine to make copies (in AIFF, MP3, AAC, or whatever format) for personal use -- like backups for archival purposes or downloading to my own MP3 player. Copy protection takes away our rights; we shouldn't just roll over. If the commercial release of the new record is copy protected, I won't buy. Charles PS -- For a funny & offensive cartoon on the subject, surf here: http://dontbuycds.org/comics.htm - ----- Original Message ----- From: "INMAN, DAVID B" Date: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:10 am Subject: RE: Copy protection on advance cds of the new record > i think the record companies are taking a huge risk with this > "copy controlled" disc thing. if folks aren't able to burn & > download copies of their cd's, who are they gonna blame for their > terrible choices of artists? according to the industry, the > decline in sales is due to copywrite infringement & has nothing to > do with their practices - so if they eliminate this - might their > true faults be revealed... > > -----Original Message----- > From: Charles M [discographer@comcast.net] > Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2003 12:01 AM > To: support-system@smoe.org > Subject: Copy protection on advance cds of the new record > > > I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but the advance discs > for > the new album are marked "Copy Controlled" on the back insert and > on > the disc itself. > [rest of post deleted] ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 09:54:15 -0700 From: "dana p." Subject: fished in! fished in! [Do you all know the story about Liz in Eleventh gradeGeometry? It's one of the best Phair anecdotes ever,and speaks volumes about the person she is: "I was a really excellent student 'til the end ofjunior year. At which point I had one of thoseepiphanies where I could not for the life of meremember why I was achieving. I remember being sort ofattacked by my class in geometry, because I was doingwell on the quizzes and it was a curve. I had a crushon this guy, and he was turning around and giving methese evil glances. He really, truly, didn't like me.I honestly hadn't been trying that hard, and I feltlike, "what the fuck?" So I just 180'd and startedditching class all the time. I barely passed my secondsemester. Then I started getting into it again. Highschool was fun in a lot of ways though."] yes, this is indeed a very telling quote. no one said anything about it last time, so i thought i'd acknowledge it now. it at least corroborates with my private theories about what's going on. or what *has* been going on for the past several years. and, just to be clear, i'm talking about career trajectory here, not the issue of "artistic growth." 'cause, frankly, i see no evidence of that (i see major *backsliding* on that one); at this point, it's all "business." anyway, this is a good quote: so all that hard work isn't paying off and the crush isn't responding the way you want? go for broke and "slum it," i guess. just to see what it's like. deep-six your life, 'cause you can quit any time. (???) i guess; it makes sense in some ways. i'm hoping. i'm hoping this is just a phase.... some kind of weird self-mutilation tantrum, i dunno. i guess i have a hard time with her choice on that one because i didn't solve it that way. and anyway, a crush on the dumb, *mean* guy?? what's the point? *no one's* that hot. i know you gotta choose your battles in life, but yikes.... if you're gonna get sucked into any of that, you gotta go for the gay ones: at least you'll crack each other up and you'll get a good friend out of the deal. the torture is worth it. talk about maximizing outcomes.... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 10:06:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Al Madrid Subject: OT: Sort of Amidst all the name calling and all the debates about the artist whom this list is dedicated to, I just want to say that another talented artist -- who's last album came out around the time of WCSE and who's recent album "High Dive" has just been released -- has captured my full attention right now. Maria Mckee's new album is just beautiful. If you are a fan of musicals -- specifically the Who's Tommy, you'll fall in love with this album. While I love Liz's new album and think that some folks need to chill out a bit (both supporters and opposers), I do have to say that Ms. McKee has replaced Ms. Phair in my cd player both in the car and at home. Maria just has the greatest, most versatile voice I've heard, and her songwriting is just beautiful. Example: I gave up on blood today He was my friend to the end but I turned him away He was blue under you but you couldn't keep him in Your too thin, my friend skin I gave up on skin today, She was my friend to the end but I turned her away He was pumping through me but I had to set him free He's a stud My friend blood And it's all my life Friend or Foe Feel Alive How was I... How was I to know... I gave up on hope today She was my friend to the end but I turned her away She was shining so bright that she gave me a fright She's (?) Too much light around the (?) This reminds me of how your body feels When your coming down with a cold More frequently now I'm getting older and I'm never going to let you go Never going to let you go... Anyway, there is a whole debate on her web site forum similar to the one we are having here. I guess it just shows that no matter what, not all will ever be completely happy when things change a bit. http://www.mariamckee.com/cgi-bin/GeneralFrame.asp?link=cgi-bin/Forum/Forum.asp Sorry for the off topic but along with Liz Phair and Aimee Mann, Mckee is right up there for me having provided some really great memories for me in my youthful 80s and college 90s, 30-somethings 2Ks. Al __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2003 07:39:30 -0500 From: "INMAN, DAVID B" Subject: RE: Peppermint saviors of our souls I'm definitely up for that - As well as - anyone who has a vague interest in the "alt-country" genre, or "punk influenced country" - I'll send you a free copy of my band's first release "And They're Off". You can check us out at www.thescuffs.com Being a Liz Phair phan has it's privileges... - -----Original Message----- From: TitleTK@aol.com [mailto:TitleTK@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, April 27, 2003 5:23 PM To: support-system@smoe.org Subject: Fwd: Peppermint saviors of our souls Return-path: From: TitleTK@aol.com Full-name: TitleTK Message-ID: <1e.ff7bf8a.2bddb215@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:22:13 EDT Subject: Re: Peppermint saviors of our souls To: phairist@cogeco.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 125 In a message dated 4/27/03 5:54:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, phairist@cogeco.ca writes: << And, you know, I think there is still a lot of great music out there, despite how down a lot of people are on what's out there right now. I kind of wonder if it might be a good time to do another mix tape/CD-R exchange on the list, like we did a while back. It might be an opportunity to turn other people on to some of the newer music we have been enjoying. If enough people are interested, let's try to organize something. >> I think this sound like a great idea, but it might also be great to put some older bands on their as well. I know discovering an artist that isn't around anymore is just as vital as discovering someone I can see on tour. james ============================== James E. Place 1233 Rodman Street Philadelphia, PA 19147 (215) 893-0657 TitleTK@aol.com "Of course, he was a Harvard graduate. That might be grounds for justifiable homicide." John Dall (Brandon Shaw) Arthur Laurents (Rope) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 1 May 2003 00:42:28 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Liz And the Radio radioandrecords.com, which is a biz site for commercial radio for all formats, has WCI listed as an ad for both AAA (Adult Album Alternative, Tori Amos is a good example of someone for that format) stations and Adult top 40 stations (just what it means A levine fits here) So if you want to hear what this song sounds like on the radio, listen to whatever is in your city or town of this type of radio station and you'll hear her. I've already heard it once, it does sound good that way. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 01 May 2003 00:46:01 -0400 From: Talula0474@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V6 #106 anyone out in San Diego, if you have a chance to see the Flaming Lips (they're playing with Liz at a small theatre) by all means, do so. They are an amazing band, and the lead singer is wonderful. I went to see them last Saturday, and before the show began (before even the opening act came on), he walked out on stage in this sharp, white suit and started throwing giant balloons into the audience. Really cool shit. And the songs were all positive, happy messages. It was really something. Fans in animal costumes dancing on stage. I swear I haven't seen anyone so intent on caring about an audience and trying to promote happiness in my life. I highly recommend it if you're lucky enough to have gotten tickets. Alice ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #107 ************************************