From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #104 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Monday, April 28 2003 Volume 06 : Number 104 Today's Subjects: ----------------- big audio dynamite ["dana p." ] evil empire ["DarkSide oftheMoon" ] Disappointed [Mariam Hamou ] I'm a menace! Part One. [Emil Breton ] More menacing shit [Emil Breton ] Re: Peppermint saviors of our souls [Jase ] Fwd: Peppermint saviors of our souls [TitleTK@aol.com] Liz to be Venus' next cover girl [mollieclarins@att.net] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 26 Apr 2003 23:03:44 -0700 From: "dana p." Subject: big audio dynamite [I have to weigh in on this one, because I don't think the big media companies are to blame for the current pathetic state of the airwaves, I think we are. Not, of course, the enlightened handful of folks on this list, but "listeners" in general. You're right that the honchos at Clear Channel et al don't care whether they play good music, but they also have no agenda to intentionally play Avril, Brooks & Dunn, Celine, and their loathesome ilk. They only want to play what people will listen to in reasonably large numbers, so that they can sell air time....] i see what yer sayin' but there's more to it. i mean, clear channel, they develop and own "acts" that they promote on their radio stations. they own venues. they've got ticket-selling outlets. as i said to another lizster about this, they're interested in controlling this whole sitch *right down to the paper cups*. as john waters would say, "they give... diane warren jobs...." i mean, yeah, there's always that group out there who "likes a good melody," but i honestly believe that if something interesting came along--and if it was shoved down our throats incessantly like all this crap we're dealing with now--people would respond. i think they're influencing opinion at least as much as they're "responding" to it. it's a form of hypnotism, really. that said, i'm firmly on the white stripes bandwagon. i don't care about the hype. i've almost missed too many great bands because i pooh-poohed their "popularity." plus, that guy's diction is EXCELLENT. haaaa, made you look....! i like their sound and i like their writing. that's good enough for me. and as for "i played hockey just two days ago".... well, here we *both* are with busted nuts. you got me; you really got me, now. absurd non-sequitur or what?? that's the best one i've heard in a good long while.... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:12:02 -0400 From: "DarkSide oftheMoon" Subject: evil empire You have no idea how evil clear channel is. They are truly the microsoft of the airwaves. All they do here in tampa is push the war effort and play the same shit over and over again. It is truly pathetic. DarkSide oftheMoon _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:13:52 -0400 From: Mariam Hamou Subject: Disappointed Hey everyone, I'm outta the woodwork once again. Okay, so I wanted to hear what the whole issue was behind the new Liz tracks so this morning I went on her site and checked it out. To say the least I was disappointed. I first listened to Extraordinary and I think the words "Jesus Christ" came out of my mouth. The second one, Why Can't I, had me longing for Exile in Guyville and the third track "Rock Me" I just couldn't listen to anymore. It sounds like overproduced shit that will definately be making the Top 40 lists. The rawness I liked about Liz is gone. I honestly feel sad about the entire ordeal. It's like we've waited SO long for something so good and it wasn't even worth it. I think I'm gonna shed tears when I hear those songs blaring from people's cars this summer thinking about what Liz once was compared to what she has become today. Sad sad sad. Mariam Hamou Sometimes a dream is what makes you a slave. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:28:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Emil Breton Subject: I'm a menace! Part One. Hola, Liz Phair fans. It's been a while since I rapped at ya. Haven't been around in ages but lately I've been reading the digest in web-archive form. For the uninitiated: I was one of Liz's biggest fans (to a nerdy, now-hugely embarrassing degree) and subsequently one of her harshest critics. I've made many enemies in Liz-land with my scathing emails, but time (or perhaps 'maturation') has mellowed me out somewhat. I'm nicer, but still not very nice. I felt the White Stripes question from Jeremy (fallout@purdue.edu) was long overdue in a forum where reviews of Madonna records are disconcertingly frequent (comparatively speaking), so I'm taking take the bait. This IS Liz-related, and there's loads of all-Liz commentary following, so listen up. I think the WS phenomenon (esp. the shocking commercial success of Elephant) is bizarre, knowing what the band stands for (Jack White rails against all broad social trends in 21st Century America); their gimmicks and brilliant media manipulation are obviously key to their success. I'd heard White Blood Cells kinda late (after I'd already wasted money on the BRMC, The Strokes, and The Hives); "Hotel Yorba" was a horrible choice for a first single, and I didn't pay much attention. However, I was surprised and pleased by the success of the new wave rock coming from guys exactly my age, so I followed the whole thing. Then when I saw "Fell in Love..." on MTV2 I was bowled-over, and promptly procured a copy of their record. I was elated to have finally found a guy who seemed to be pulling distilled versions of thoughts right out of my head and setting them to some of the most ferociously engaging rawk I'd ever heard. That whole album is practically song-for-song *who I was* last year at this time (I'm him; he's me). I'd say Jack White is the new Liz Phair, as far as songwriters-that-speak-to-an-entire-gender go (Pitchfork.com and Spin mag alluded to this as well), and White Blood Cells is the Exile in Guyville we boys never had. I was seriously going to write a comparative essay about Jack and Liz, because I felt the similarities were so strong. I never thought it would take so long for the White Stripes to come up in this discussion group, but now that the demographics have become apparent, it makes sense. As for 'Liz Phair': I'm almost more stunned by the appalling amount of complacency evident in the opinions expressed by many here than by the recent musical 'adventures' Liz has taken. The folks in question say, more or less, "I heard the new songs...and I like them" with little to no elaboration on what's actually valuable about them. No one responded to the challenge posed by (I believe) one of the cool Jameses: explain how any of the new songs are as interesting as old-school Liz. Instead, we get "She's older, she's matured, PEOPLE CHANGE" and "would you prefer your artists stay the same and never evolve? are YOU still the same person?" But thankfully some eggheads such as the acutely astute Dana P. have refuted such empty rhetoric by explaining how 'maturation' and 'growth' usually don't equate with 'getting stupid' as you age. My girfriend was reading Noam Chomsky aloud to me the other night, from a book wherein he explained how slogans like "Support Our Troops" don't mean a damn thing, it's all just empty rhetoric that is impossible to disagree with or even comprehend. Think about it in this context: "Support Our Musicians' Right to Grow." Huh? Likewise "Why paint yourself into a corner?" No one here, except for Michael P. Worrel (hi, Mike) has said that Liz shouldn't 'grow' as an artist, but look at what that supposed 'growth' has done for her. I'm still reeling from the comment: "hey, so what if this is disposable crap. If I want musical depth, I'll listen to something else." GUH? Is no one else floored by the irony here? Liz Phair always WAS what we listened to when we wanted depth from a songwriter (right?), and now if we want more of that depth, we should look elsewhere? Jesus tap-dancing Christ! It's certainly not about wanting "another 'Exile'" so fuck everyone who can't understand that (Liz and her mom included). It's about wanting *continued* quality songwriting and has nothing to do with "lo-fi" or Tales of Extraordinary Early-90s Slacking, or whatever it is you people are trying to say with your She'll-never-make-another-Exile argument. Liz has loads of personal melodrama to write about, and she's obviously drawn on it for this record, so the angst is definitely there. It's just delivered to us in ultra-watered-down form, or "predigested" as Liz calls it. I'm not impressed. I don't see how any of this could be hard to understand. I haven't heard the complete album, but I read the lyrics and remain wholly unconvinced that any of this shit could possibly be considered an 'evolved' version of 'vintage' Liz. If you actually believe that this stuff is as good, or if you KNOW that it isn't and you still like it just fine and wish her all the best, then one of the following MUST be true: 1) either you just dig any woman who 'speaks her mind' and 'tells it like it is', and you don't care how well or in what way it's being said (that would be the roaring You-Go-Girl crowd here); or 2) you were truly never paying very close attention in the first place. I never gave a fuck what Liz was saying, I was always just blown away by HOW she was saying it: once again, she was never as 'direct' a songwriter as people claim. Her most beguiling attribtute as a writer was her ability to code her stories in droll details ("watching the salmon fly", "disease, hashish, a mind", "Abe Vigoda plays Frankenstein"). All that inspiration, all that consideration, all that TIME spent on writing challenging songs is out the window. She doesn't play guitar like she used to, either -- she is simply not as good a songwriter nowadays. (I might make an exception for "Hot White Cum", which has GOT to be more intentionally subversive than Liz has claimed). [I don't want this to bounce, so I'm dividing it into two parts. hopefully that helps.] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 12:32:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Emil Breton Subject: More menacing shit I've read so many posts on here that ended with the ominous message, designed to silence anyone who'd dare disagree: "Your record collection don't exist, you don't even know who Liz Phair is." What the hell is that even supposed to mean? I definitely know what kind of songwriter Liz was, and I have a pretty good idea of who she is as a person, too. It goes like this: Liz Phair is a rich bitch -- always has been, always will be. But there was this glorious, relatively brief period in her 20s when she got temporarily distracted by her intellect and unwittingly became one of the best songwriters ever. But then 'reality' set in, and she realized (like any decent, upper-middle-class person married with children would) that cellular phones, SUVs, designer clothing, Hollywood movie premiers, expensive restaurants, and shitloads of money were much, MUCH more important. That's okay. I, too, love money -- gobs and gobs of it -- I don't fault her for that. I also like the idea of California, or any sunny state (Seasonal Affective Disorder sucks, I know). But along with that should not necessarily come a total disregard for intelligent, odd, and memorable music. I may not know much -- after all, I'm just a stoned 24-year-old -- but do you think that when I'm in my thirties, raising a family (god forbid), I'll somehow prefer listening to shit music? Do you all know the story about Liz in Eleventh grade Geometry? It's one of the best Phair anecdotes ever, and speaks volumes about the person she is: "I was a really excellent student 'til the end of junior year. At which point I had one of those epiphanies where I could not for the life of me remember why I was achieving. I remember being sort of attacked by my class in geometry, because I was doing well on the quizzes and it was a curve. I had a crush on this guy, and he was turning around and giving me these evil glances. He really, truly, didn't like me. I honestly hadn't been trying that hard, and I felt like, "what the fuck?" So I just 180'd and started ditching class all the time. I barely passed my second semester. Then I started getting into it again. High school was fun in a lot of ways though." I think that says it all. It's just sad -- not cancer-sad, mind you -- to see someone so talented, so unusual, so universally respected sink so unbelievably low. She's a cool girl and a hot piece of ass. That's why I'm still interested: it's like the car crash she so eloquently describes in "Take a Look" (I agree it has to be a metaphor for her career -- brilliant!). To me, it makes perfectly good sense to look *critically* at what she's doing and not turn a blind eye to her damnable contribution to the god-awful state of pop music (and pop culture in general). Free speech, right? I don't know what everyone got their knickers twisted about. Major props to anyone who read this far -- as George W. Bush once said: "Verbosity leads to unclear, inarticulate things." Sorry about that, and sorry if it was all a bit harsh. I know we can all still be friends, but if anyone wants to spar, don't hesitate! I'll take you on, one by one. There's more piss where this came from. I think I only said about half of what I intended. I was going to explain how the 'X-Box' and 'record collection' bits in "Rock Me" are examples of vomit-worthy bad taste, but I'll save that for next time. Before I go, here's a couple other wads of bile for you to suck on: 1) The "more complex, personal, and depressing" tunes Liz claims to have in storage will likely be just as shitty as what's on the record. She's either unwilling or unable (I'm leaning toward the latter) to write good songs anymore. 2) If I hear of any local radio stations playing "What Can't I", I'm going to call them and request that they NOT play it. Why anyone would want to validate Liz's ridiculous venture is beyond me. Are you working for her? Who would benefit from mainstream acceptance of this crap, other than Capitol records, Liz Phair, and Liz Phair's 'people'? Are you out of your gourds? Steve [confidential to Robert Joyner: are we friends again yet?] __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo. http://search.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:08:34 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: Peppermint saviors of our souls fallout@purdue.edu wrote: >Since everyone seems down on every music scene/genre in general, how do >you respond to the >hype behemoth that is The White Stripes? I wouldn't say that I'm a huge fan of theirs, but I like 'em well enough. It was refreshing last year to see bands like the Stripes and the Hives get some attention and airplay; Modern Rock radio has been pretty dismal for three or four years now and these bands are a step in the right direction. That said, I find that while I enjoy a lot of the garage rock revivalist (for lack of a better term) bands, I do tire of their albums after a while. They don't have the same staying power for me as some of my other favorites (Wilco, Sonic Youth, Liz, Sleater-Kinney) do. It's like I'm initially excited by the prospect of something different than what's been shoved down our throats for the last few years, but once that feeling wears off, I realize that these bands are not quite what I'm looking for either. None of them are exactly reinventing the wheel; they're a throwback -- although a damn great, enjoyable one -- to other music I already own. I mean, I quite like "Dead Leaves and the Dirty Ground," for example, but the first thing I think when I hear it is how much it reminds me of Zeppelin. I think the hype factor does take its toll as well; no matter how good any of these bands or their records may be, it's damn near impossible for any of them to live up to the expectations that have been created for them. In this regard, the Strokes album was very aptly titled. I'm waiting to see if the new White Stripes album will be the exception, though. I've only played it a couple of times so far, but it seems to be agreeing with me. Maybe an indisputably classic album will come out of this new breed of bands yet. It's still a bit of a mindfuck to see the Stripes everywhere these days; I remember seeing them open for both Pavement and Sleater-Kinney a few years back. Now they're a lot better known than those two bands combined. And, you know, I think there is still a lot of great music out there, despite how down a lot of people are on what's out there right now. I kind of wonder if it might be a good time to do another mix tape/CD-R exchange on the list, like we did a while back. It might be an opportunity to turn other people on to some of the newer music we have been enjoying. If enough people are interested, let's try to organize something. If anyone is looking for music to check out, the latest releases from Kristin Hersh, Throwing Muses, and Cat Power are all pretty damn great. I'd be happy to have any of these at the top of my year-end list. I've also picked up the new Stephen Malkmus, but haven't had a chance to listen to it all the way through yet. I also think the Interpol record is great; it probably would have made my Top 10 list last year if I hadn't been such a slacker and bought it after the fact. I don't understand, though, why some people insist on grouping them in with all of the "the" bands; I don't hear any similar influences. Maybe it's just the New York connection. It looks like there's also some other promising records to be released over the next couple of months: new Radiohead, Yeah Yeah Yeahs, Wire, Eels... Jase ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:22:39 EDT From: TitleTK@aol.com Subject: Fwd: Peppermint saviors of our souls Return-path: From: TitleTK@aol.com Full-name: TitleTK Message-ID: <1e.ff7bf8a.2bddb215@aol.com> Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2003 18:22:13 EDT Subject: Re: Peppermint saviors of our souls To: phairist@cogeco.ca MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 5.0 for Windows sub 125 In a message dated 4/27/03 5:54:55 PM Eastern Daylight Time, phairist@cogeco.ca writes: << And, you know, I think there is still a lot of great music out there, despite how down a lot of people are on what's out there right now. I kind of wonder if it might be a good time to do another mix tape/CD-R exchange on the list, like we did a while back. It might be an opportunity to turn other people on to some of the newer music we have been enjoying. If enough people are interested, let's try to organize something. >> I think this sound like a great idea, but it might also be great to put some older bands on their as well. I know discovering an artist that isn't around anymore is just as vital as discovering someone I can see on tour. james ============================== James E. Place 1233 Rodman Street Philadelphia, PA 19147 (215) 893-0657 TitleTK@aol.com "Of course, he was a Harvard graduate. That might be grounds for justifiable homicide." John Dall (Brandon Shaw) Arthur Laurents (Rope) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Apr 2003 04:03:29 +0000 From: mollieclarins@att.net Subject: Liz to be Venus' next cover girl Hey, Jase (and everyone). I am finally posting. Just thought I'd let everyone know that Liz will be Venus Zine's summer cover girl. That issue should be out in May or June. If you haven't checked this publication out, let me just say that I, as a huge magazine junkie, think this is one of the few really worth reading. Check them out: http://www.venuszine.com. ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #104 ************************************