From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #84 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, April 8 2003 Volume 06 : Number 084 Today's Subjects: ----------------- selfish and lawless fans [Kate Stewart ] Re: Portland, OR Show [TaliaK@aol.com] Favourites: I LOVE (condensed): ["WaverRider" ] Re: Favourites: I LOVE (condensed): [TitleTK@aol.com] Robin Tunney [Andy Peters ] stealing music/grand theft auto [Dan MacDonald ] i *heart* kate [Valerie ] Re: CD tree update [robert joyner ] Re: CD tree update [robert joyner ] Re: support-system-digest V6 #83 [fallout@purdue.edu] Re: support-system-digest V6 #83 [fallout@purdue.edu] Re: immoral vs illegal [Sean Murdock ] firewalker ["Mike Katsoulis" ] random thoughts about LP, jill sobule and arguing [LilRussianGirl@aol.com] A request from Liz...! [Kenneth Lee ] liz requests part I [LilRussianGirl@aol.com] the Liz Q&A continues - round 3 [Kenneth Lee ] Re: firewalker [Jase ] Re: A request from Liz...! [Jase ] Re: A request from Liz...! [ReallyHip@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 6 Apr 2003 22:39:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Kate Stewart Subject: selfish and lawless fans I'm not going to dignify that garbage with a response. Be reassured that I'm still doing it. I'm just not the paranoid type. Lawbreaking is just so darn thrilling. What a rush! Boy, am I really digging this new outlaw identity I have now. I was always such a good girl.... look how Liz Phair corrupted me. Taught me all those naughty words too. Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 03:56:25 -0400 From: TaliaK@aol.com Subject: Re: Portland, OR Show Ack! I live 2 hours away from Portland and, wouldn't you know it, I just bought tickets for a Lagwagon show in Seattle that's the same night! =( Damn I would love to go see Liz. Robin <> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 07:14:07 -0400 From: "WaverRider" Subject: Favourites: I LOVE (condensed): It's easy to say which songs you love, but which do you hate? I can't stand "X-ray Man" I hate that song... so much. Waverrider ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 08:29:18 EDT From: TitleTK@aol.com Subject: Re: Favourites: I LOVE (condensed): >>It's easy to say which songs you love, but which do you hate? I can't stand "X-ray Man" I hate that song... so much<< Really? I think X-Ray Man is great. Her voice gets especially low on that song. It's awesome. I really dislike Only Son . . . it just doesn't go anywhere. Then to make it worse at the very end it starts to pick up . . . I feel like that is where the song should start. Oh well. james ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 06:46:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peters Subject: Robin Tunney Is Robin Tunney still supposed to be on the cover art for "Liz Phair" ? Andy in Atlanta Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 13:23:12 -0400 From: Dan MacDonald Subject: stealing music/grand theft auto Jeffrey Gray" wrote: >I'm going to borrow your car tonight, maybe I'll >buy it when you put it up for sale in a month. I'll probably let lots of >people drive it too. okay i understand the point you are making and you obviously have *very* strong feelings about this. i am torn about the whole thing too, but at the same time - you bring up an interesting situation... humour me for two seconds with this. what if i was going to sell my car in june. you wanted it badly. you knew you were gonna buy it, but wanted to test drive it because you loved it so much even though i was not ready to sell it. so you "technically steal" my car while i'm sleeping, drive it around, let your friends drive it around and i wake up in the morning, and never know you took it for a joyride. does it make it okay that you stole my car? of course not. you broke the law. but did it hurt me at all? did it ever once hurt me financially, mentally, physically or otherwise? no. you still bought my damn car. i wouldn't like the idea of strangers driving it around, i would FOR SURE call the cops on you if i caught you in the act or knew about you stealing it - but "technically" i wasn't affected by it at all, because you stuck to your word and bought my car in the end anyway. ridiculous and unlikely scenario - but sometimes i think "what they don't know won't hurt them" has *some* credibility, especially in the age or ripping and burning music (wasn't liz in a commercial about that?). if a few people on this list get together and make copies of a cd and pass it around and we all get to hear it a few months in advance, it is NOT going to hurt liz at all. everyone on this list who burns a copy of the album and trades it are *ALL* going to buy the album when it comes out in june. everyone here is a hardcore liz fan - and will always hold her in the highest regard. we don't want to rip liz off or scam her out of a cd sale. most of the regulars on this list have been on the list since it began (myself included). we've been with liz through the thick and thin, many of us have met her, saw her several times, got many (many many many) of our non-liz friends into her, circulated demos - we're a few commercial sponsors short of being a fucking street team for liz. fuck - i broke my pelvis for her in 1998 and i have the beginning stages of arthritis. don't ask. we also don't represent EVERY liz fan. if a few "insiders" who are on the list have access to the new liz album, and want to share it with like-minded people, then this is a privilege to anyone who wants to hear it who subscribes to *THIS* digest. in theory, it doesn't sound good - to copy and trade music. it's against the law blah blah blah etc etc etc. but so is running a stop sign at four in the morning when there are no cars in sight. it doesn't make it right. it doesn't make it legal. but if no one (absolutely no one) is around - then no blood is shed. no one is hurt. i'm going to buy the album when it comes out - i'll probably buy one for my house and one for my car. i'll probably buy a few more as gifts for people. but if i get a chance to get my hands on an advanced copy, and the chance to spread some of the new music to other liz phair fans and the chance to play new liz phair music on my show - without question, i'll be happy and privileged (thanks to this awesome list) to do it. interesting debate though.... dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 13:44:18 -0400 (EDT) From: Valerie Subject: i *heart* kate hey kate stewart... your email address doesn't come up on my digest, just your name. yes, i'd love a copy, please email me at valerieb@mindspring.com to get my address, etc. thanks! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 10:56:33 -0700 (PDT) From: robert joyner Subject: Re: CD tree update - --- Jeffrey Gray wrote: > > I'm glad I piss of anyone on this list. I'm glad > you're the most pissed. Yep you got me so upset i sent an obscenity filled rant to the list.....oops, no, that was somebody else. Clean up your language, Jeffrey, such displays on the list are uncouth. > the reason people like us exist. I guarantee you if > we handled Liz, you'd > have been our bitch many emails ago. :) Very Professional. I have neither bought, sold or uploaded the new album. I guess you would sue or threaten to sue anyone who just happened to disagree with you. but then again Liz isn't your client, but checking your site I saw where Beavis and Butthead are. Shouldn't you be pestering folks doing illegal covers of "Come to Butthead"? > Selling promo's on eBay is bad enough, but CDR's > of that promo. How > disgusting you people are to sell or buy them. > Please tell me about > every commercial release everyone on the list has a > stake in. I'd love to > serve up some humble pie. Has anyone used this list to buy or sell the new album? NO! in fact this list facilitates drying up any possible market for folks selling the album. Treeing the album makes for those on the list makes the bootlegger irrelevant, (and also the music publisher irrelevant, hence your barely lucid rant). Try finding a fuck and run or potty mouth type bootleg for the 98 and 99 tours. Extremely few and far between because of this list. Booting is done by the fans and traded for with nobody receiving any monetary benefit. List favorite with commercial releases? Check out that phairities tape/cd, several on there. You wouldn't be one of those folks that uses some convoluted reasoning to differentiate between commercial available material being bootlegged and concert material, would you? They are both just as illegal. But I have no problem with admitting that. Are you going to complain everytime a concert boot from her upcoming tour is offered on the list? If you are you're gonna be one popular fella. > Pesci Pesci, eh? Having read Hit Men by Fredric Dannen I'll pass on giving the list a nice read on the role of organized crime in the music industry (including promotion and publishing), Mr Soprano. continue to bark at the moon if you like about this subject but the promo is out and being distributed. Your pleas are but so much sound and fury signifying nothing. Robert ===== - ------------------------------------------------------------ Nashville - A Liz Phair Web Site http://www.geocities.com/robnashville - ------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 11:06:27 -0700 (PDT) From: robert joyner Subject: Re: CD tree update - --- Jeffrey Gray wrote: > > I'm glad I piss of anyone on this list. I'm glad > you're the most pissed. Yep you got me so upset i sent an obscenity filled rant to the list.....oops, no, that was somebody else. Clean up your language, Jeffrey, such displays on the list are uncouth. > the reason people like us exist. I guarantee you if > we handled Liz, you'd > have been our bitch many emails ago. :) Very Professional. I have neither bought, sold or uploaded the new album. I guess you would sue or threaten to sue anyone who just happened to disagree with you. but then again Liz isn't your client, but checking your site I saw where Beavis and Butthead are. Shouldn't you be pestering folks doing illegal covers of "Come to Butthead"? > Selling promo's on eBay is bad enough, but CDR's > of that promo. How > disgusting you people are to sell or buy them. > Please tell me about > every commercial release everyone on the list has a > stake in. I'd love to > serve up some humble pie. Has anyone used this list to buy or sell the new album? NO! in fact this list facilitates drying up any possible market for folks selling the album. Treeing the album makes for those on the list makes the bootlegger irrelevant, (and also the music publisher irrelevant, hence your barely lucid rant). Try finding a fuck and run or potty mouth type bootleg for the 98 and 99 tours. Extremely few and far between because of this list. Booting is done by the fans and traded for with nobody receiving any monetary benefit. List favorite with commercial releases? Check out that phairities tape/cd, several on there. You wouldn't be one of those folks that uses some convoluted reasoning to differentiate between commercial available material being bootlegged and concert material, would you? They are both just as illegal. But I have no problem with admitting that. Are you going to complain everytime a concert boot from her upcoming tour is offered on the list? If you are you're gonna be one popular fella. > Pesci Pesci, eh? Having read Hit Men by Fredric Dannen I'll pass on giving the list a nice read on the role of organized crime in the music industry (including promotion and publishing), Mr Soprano. continue to bark at the moon if you like about this subject but the promo is out and being distributed. Your pleas are but so much sound and fury signifying nothing. Robert ===== - ------------------------------------------------------------ Nashville - A Liz Phair Web Site http://www.geocities.com/robnashville - ------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Tax Center - File online, calculators, forms, and more http://tax.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:04:54 -0500 From: fallout@purdue.edu Subject: Re: support-system-digest V6 #83 Stop me if I'm out of line here, but Jeffery Gray is stupid. >From: "Jeffrey Gray" >Subject: Re: CD tree update >I think it's reprehensible that you people feel you deserve to get the >album before the general public. Because you're devout and promise to buy >a commercial copy when available? I'm not saying that I nor anyone else >has made blah blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah >blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah >blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah bl ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 15:06:12 -0500 From: fallout@purdue.edu Subject: Re: support-system-digest V6 #83 I do, however, apologize for misspelling his name. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 17:42:13 -0400 From: Sean Murdock Subject: Re: immoral vs illegal >Date: Sun, 06 Apr 2003 14:47:58 -0700 >From: "Jeffrey Gray" >Subject: Re: CD tree update > >I think it's reprehensible that you people feel you deserve to get the >album before the general public. I don't think anyone ever said they *deserve* it, just that they desperately *wanted* it. "Fan" comes from "fanatic," remember? >Because you're devout and promise to buy >a commercial copy when available? It certainly helps -- ethically, at least. Your rant might have been better aimed at the "general public" and not at a small group of hardcore fans -- all of whom eventually, even after hearing a pirated promo copy of the CD, will buy said CD, perhaps an expensive import of such (with bonus tracks), one or more CD singles (expensive imports if necessary), and perhaps even the vinyl issue, if there is one. >I'm 100% for artists rights, not selfish and lawless fans. As illustrated above, being a fan is an expensive business, and it behooves the artist and the label to look the other way if the album is traded among hardcore fans before the release date. If Capitol had done what Aimee Mann did and streamed the whole album on Liz's website, we wouldn't even be discussing this. Liz's fans aren't trying to hurt anyone or pull a scam, they just want to *hear* the music as soon as possible. And "selfish"? Some of the regulars here should keep tabs on what they will spend on official Liz Phair product this year; between the CD, the singles, concert tickets and assorted other items, I'd say "self-LESS" would better describe their devotion. If you ask me, "reprehensible" would have been if the album had been posted on a binaries newsgroup, where any lookie-loo with broadband could download it, without that bothersome loyalty to Liz that would compel them to buy it in June. If you had issued your rant, verbatim, to a binaries newsgroup in response to the album being posted, I think everyone here would agree with every word. But you're blasting a group of people who are already in Liz's back pocket; their sales are guaranteed. The question of whether this is "wrong" (morally, not legally) is far from black-and-white. > I hope that >you are prepared to face consequences. Maybe you should check out >everyone who's requesting a CD copy before you blindly send them your >federal crime evidence? If I was the RIAA or the FBI, I'd go after the guy who SOLD multiple copies of the promo on ebay, not a tiny bunch of people who traded it for nothing just to pass the time while waiting for June 24th. - -- Sean Murdock seanmurd@optonline.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 16:55:14 -0500 From: "Mike Katsoulis" Subject: firewalker i was just wondering how many versions of this song are out there... i only have one, and its a live version. does a studio recording exist? ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 18:15:06 EDT From: LilRussianGirl@aol.com Subject: random thoughts about LP, jill sobule and arguing >>In theory, it doesn't sound good -- to copy and trade music. It's against the law blah blah blah, etc., etc., etc. So why do they make blank tapes? Seriously. I've never understood it. >>But so is running a stop sign at four in the morning when there are no cars in sight. It's a funny thing for you to say -- isn't one of the lines in one of her new songs "I run stop signs in the dark" or something like that??? My 20 cents (its too long to be worth just 2)... I posed this situation ya'll have been discussing to a police officer* I know. She tells me that she thinks that it is NOT illegal** to copy a copied version of the promo disc and give it to *A* friend, so long as no money is or has been exchanged to obtain or provide. However, she advises that it is not a good idea to distribute it to *multiple* people (especially publicly to people you don't even know over the Internet) as this could come back to haunt you if someone (Liz, Capitol, etc.) wants to make a case that they lost money due to your distribution regardless of if you made money in the distribution process or not. Especially since these digests are posted to God knows who and stored in archives on the web for anyone to see.... ....It's just something to consider... *Note: She's a police officer, not a copyright lawyer. before you jump me with that you think she's wrong, ignorant, or incompetent - it's just another opinion for your consideration. yes, this is not her area of specialty, but i don't know any copyright lawyers to ask and my guess was that her opinion is more informed than mine. but we could both be wrong. **Note: i said illegal -I'm referring to legalities, not ethics here. That's a different argument I'm not getting involved with. On the other hand, the WCSE discs were brought to Liz's attention and she was cool with that, right? On the first hand again though, we know that Liz really wants to sell records and be a big radio pop hit goddess with this record -- so she might not be as open to that this time around -- esp. if LP doesn't do well in sales. On the second hand again, I have no doubts that the people on this list are all going to be waiting in line at midnight at Tower with me the night before to buy multiple copies of this album at midnight. So it is a complicated dilemma indeed. As for interesting ideas, I am told that Jill Sobule is pondering putting out a new record entirely fiscally supported by fans. Pros? Cons? PLEASE debate! I am eager to hear your opinionated comments. And it brings to mind another point -- something to ponder -- if you were one of the fans financially supporting this LP album and it's distribution would you want copies of free promo copies floating around? I also agree with whoever said that this list has helped to curb the bootleg for sale business in regard to Liz. I truly believe that it has. {Does anyone else remember when people would email information about the guyville/6'1"/ss list and offer free copies of bootlegs to ignorant bidders on ebay and report such sellers to help curb that?} From past practice on this list I'm curious -- are the people who are livid about this haves/have nots situation been flaming the guy who's SELLING the copies of the promos on ebay? Has anyone reported him? Seems he's at fault and deserving of your anger more than most of us not even involved in it.... I'm not trying to incite hate mail for the guy here, but heck, no matter which side of the fence you are on it appears to be a fact that he's making money on Liz's music and efforts. And my guess is that he's not Liz. I would think that all of us could be united in being pissed off about that. And it appears he didn't even get the titles right -- wonder how that happened. I know! Maybe the sale of these promo discs is an evil conspiracy and the guy selling them is her ex-husband! OK, OK, I'M JUST KIDDING! Just some random thoughts. I'm sure ya'll will respond with what you think. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 15:55:38 -0700 From: Kenneth Lee Subject: A request from Liz...! Hi folks, In another Q&A session with Liz (which I will be posting later), I asked her about taking requests during shows. She said she's willing to play some of her older tunes or "rarities", but she needs our help. 1) What songs would you like to hear Liz perform? 2) Are there any (Liz's words) "educated musician geeks" who could chart her old and rare songs so she can re-learn them and teach her accompanying guitarist? Liz Phair one has spoken. Feel free to respond (soon). - -Ken kenmlee@ix.netcom.com MeSmErIzInG - AnOtHeR LiZ PhAiR WeBsItE http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2471/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 7 Apr 2003 19:00:40 EDT From: LilRussianGirl@aol.com Subject: liz requests part I Oh thank you for asking Liz/Ken! In order of my preference: bars of the bed rocket boy erecting a movie star don't have time never said don't apologize blood keeper Let me think about the gs songs... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 16:45:42 -0700 From: Kenneth Lee Subject: the Liz Q&A continues - round 3 Okay, Here's the transcripts of my latest Q&A session with Liz: Ken: Is it true that you will be opening for the Flaming Lips on some of their west coast concert dates? If so, which dates? Liz: I start May 23rd and wind up June 14. I think it's a West Coast thing. It'll be short, like 5 songs, or so, a night, and acoustic - just me and one other guitar player (Dino Menighen, I think). Ken: Have you figured out what songs you will be performing on tour yet? And may I suggest "Don't Have Time"? :) Liz: Perfect opportunity to play rarities, as you suggest. Problem is, I can't remember how to play alot of those old tunes, so I don't know how to teach them to him. If there are any educated musician geeks out there who know how to chart any of my old and rare songs, we need you now. I'd give a hearty shout out to anyone who had the time. Ken: Will you be performing at the Field Day Music Festival in New York? Liz: Yes! Again, we'll be spare and acoustic, so probably on a sidestage or afternoon (I hope! I don't want to suck in such laudable company) but am looking forward to it immensely. It's always fun to play in a cool festival, so you can hang and watch everybody else from backstage. Best seats in the house. Ken: This question comes from a Miss Katie Brown, who sang "Flower" on stage with you at the Lounge Ax way back in March 14, 1999: Katie Brown: Huge favor... Next time you chat with Liz... will you ask her if she ever (back in the day) played at the Hideout or the Empty Bottle? I just have a feeling she has. Old school chicago dives. ;) Liz: I have this terrible memory problem. I don't keep track of where I've been, only of where I am going. A liability I strive to correct on a yearly basis. I don't think I performed at either place. I did my early EARLY shows at dives on Division Street. That's it for now. Your requests, please. And anyone who can help Liz with the charting of her old songs / rarities, let me know. - -Ken kenmlee@ix.netcom.com MeSmErIzInG - AnOtHeR LiZ PhAiR WeBsItE http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2471/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 22:25:02 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: firewalker Mike Katsoulis wrote: >i was just wondering how many versions of this song are out there... i only >have one, and its a live version. does a studio recording exist? There's several live versions on various boots from the college tour Liz did in '99. A studio recording does exist and it's on the new record. It is absolutely phenomenal and is one of my favorites from the album. The music and lyrics haven't changed from the live versions, apart from a really cool new intro. Jase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 23:14:41 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: A request from Liz...! Ken wrote: >Hi folks, >In another Q&A session with Liz (which I will be posting later), >I asked her about taking requests during shows. She said >she's willing to play some of her older tunes or "rarities", but >she needs our help. > >1) What songs would you like to hear Liz perform? Oh wow, there are so many that I really don't know where to start. Some of my absolute favorites that I'd love to hear her perform would be: "Beginning to See the Light" "You Have No Idea" (how was this amazing song never recorded in the studio?) "Stuck on an Island" "Don't Have Time" "Can't Get Out of What I'm Into" "If I Ever Pay You Back" "Blood Keeper" "White Bird of Texas" "Carnivore" I guess those would be the rarities. As for older album songs, I'm partial to these ones: "6'1" "Mesmerizing" "Divorce Song" "Explain it to Me" "Stratford-on-Guy" "Fuck and Run" "Support System" "Nashville" "May Queen" "Cinco De Mayo" "Jealousy" "Perfect World" "What Makes You Happy" "Johnny Feelgood" "Headache" "Go on Ahead" Of course, if I had my way and she played all of these along with her new songs, she'd be on stage for hours. Not that I'd be complaining, but she might. ;) Who knew there was a downside to being the best songwriter of your generation? >2) Are there any (Liz's words) "educated musician geeks" who >could chart her old and rare songs so she can re-learn them >and teach her accompanying guitarist? I'm not much help in this area myself, but I was wondering if maybe there are tabs of Liz's songs online we could refer her to? I know I do have a tab of "6'1" saved that Steve Kisko posted a long time ago, but that's probably not one of the ones she needs help with. I do have a copy of the Whip-Smart tab book. It's not completely accurate, but it'd probably still be of some help. I can photocopy any of the songs from it if she'd like, if you could find a way to pass them along to her. Cheers, Jase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 07 Apr 2003 23:41:11 -0400 From: ReallyHip@aol.com Subject: Re: A request from Liz...! I'm going to go to a few people at Berkeley for transcription. I'll get back to you tommorrow, Ken. I don't have all the rarities... Of all the songs I want her to play... Easy, a reworked Batmobile... and a cover of Pearl Jam's Black. :) Those are my picks. I'll be fine with the mandatory 6'1'', Polyester Bride, etc... :) Hopefully we get a support system or two. You bet your ass Shane will be coming, too. - -Michael Gehrig ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #84 ***********************************