From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V6 #71 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, March 26 2003 Volume 06 : Number 071 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: support-system-digest V6 #69 [Biggerd000@aol.com] A Review, part 1 ["Michael Honaker" ] A Review, part 2 ["Michael Honaker" ] Michael's review [Jase ] Re: liz article in the chgo trib [Jase ] all that swearing... [Valerie ] RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! ["J. Alan Doak" ] RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! [Jase ] RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! ["J. Alan Doak" Subject: A Review, part 1 Deviding this into part 1 and part 2. Not that anyone really pays attention anyway, but it's my review of the record. I expect negative response, as I always do. I've debated whether or not to post anything, and finally came to the conclusion today that I probably should... if not to give people some info, then at least so they can get bitchy with me and leave Liz alone. Begin Part 1. The record opens with "Extraordinary", so in turn, I'll begin my review with those lyrics, for those that are craving to know if there's more to the song than the repetitive garbled shit that SoundOpinions.net had available. There's a reason that they didn't play more of the song... and that reason is... SHE STILL CAN WRITE. Keep that in mind. = You think that I go home at night Take off my clothes, turn out the lights But I burn letters that I write To you, to make you love me But I drive naked through the park And run the stop sign in the dark Stand in the street, yell out my heart To make, to make you love me I am extraordinary, if you'd ever get to know me I am extraordinary, I am just your ordinary Average every day sane psycho Supergoddess Average every day sane psycho Supergoddess You may not believe in me But I believe in you So I still take the trash out Does that make you too normal for you? So dig a little deeper, cause You still don't get it yet See me lickin' my lips, need a primitive fix And I'll make, I'll make you love me I am extraordinary, if you'd ever get to know me I am extraordinary, I am just your ordinary Average every day sane psycho Supergoddess Average every day sane psycho Supergoddess See me jump through hoops for you You stand there watching me performing What exactly do you do? Have you ever thought it's you that's boring? Who the hell are you? I am extraordinary, if you'd ever get to know me I am extraordinary, I am just your ordinary Average every day sane psycho Supergoddess Average every day sane psycho Supergoddess = End part 1. - -Michael Now Playing: "Liz Phair" - Liz Phair =========================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 04:11:30 -0500 From: "Michael Honaker" Subject: A Review, part 2 Begin Part two... Here's the deal. I'm not going to sit and type out a review that no one will take seriously because it isn't coming from someone that's up on a pedestal on this list, so I'll just keep things short. The songs are good. I guarantee that several people will be posting after they hear the record, complaining that "She's not the same Liz that wrote" blah blah blah. Well, I'll revert to 8th grade for my response to that: Fucking duh! She isn't. My view on that is this: I doubt very seriously that any of us are in the same place that we were when we first heard Exile. I'm not. You'd be lying if you said that your life is exactly the same, and your musical tastes haven't changed. In truth, if they haven't changed or broadened, you need to get out more. Just my opinion though. "Polished" and "Fake" and "Hollywood" are terms that come to mind when I think about what people will say about this record. Of course, people could just keep saying "Hollywood Lube Job" because they can't think on their own, but hey... it's ok. I've listened to this record several times now. I will say that the production is more in your face, but it's not bad. "Why Can't I?" *might* come across as Avril-Esque, but as far as I've heard, it's easy to overlook. Some notes about the songs... "You're In Love With Me" has this vibe... I'm not sure how to describe it. It sounds REALLY familiar to me. Kind of like when I heard Liz singing "makes you wanna feel, makes you wanna cry"...and then it hit me months later that she was building on "Head On" by the Pixies. The song kind of ends abruptly with a fade that sounds kind of like it was meant to go on to be a much longer song, but then someone said "ok, you're time is up". "Rock Me" is pretty decent. "Just take off my dress, let's mess with everybody's mind" is a memorable line. As well as name dropping without getting paid: "I wanna play X-Box on your floor". There's a few memorable lines in this song that I found hysterical. The best one, I'll save until the end of this post. "Take A Look" can't really be described much more than what it already has been. We've heard it already. The only thing to point out is this: I've really, REALLY come to believe that this song isn't particuarly about a boyfriend, her old manager, husband, whatever the rumors were. Sounds too much like she's been reading Support-System. I agree with her, if it is. "My Mother Is Mine" seems to have the tone of what "Little Dear" was rumored to have. I imagine that it's the same time. To me, it's kind of like the "Only Son" of this record. You know, sometimes there are just songs that seem out of place. Maybe it will grow on me a bit. "Firewalker". Now we're talking. An awesome song. The opening intro for this song is 40 seconds, then it abruptly kicks in. Same lyrics that we all know and love...and some of us hate. "My Favorite Underwear". This one made me step back and think for a second... "what the hell is she doing"? Then the answer just hit me... she's singing about her underwear. Yes. It's quite funny. By the end of the song you'll wonder if she's singing about her boyfriend or her underwear? "Oh baby you know what you're like? You're like my favorite underwear" She keeps talking about "doing it". hehehe. "It's A War" Demo.... and here we go.... the revamped version of Love Hate Transmission. THANK GOD she changed the title and the chorus. No more of the uh-uh-uh-uh stuff. "It's a war, with the whole wide world...It's a war, with the boys and girls". I'm digging it. Here's a line for you... "It's sister and brother, and mother and daughter, and father, son, husband wife thing" "Hot White Cum" Brilliant. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant, brillant. My skin's getting clear, my hair's so bright... all you do is fuck me all day and night. Abso-fucking-lutely think this is hysterical. Anyone who can't see the humor and the resemblance between this and her other writing, you should maybe re-think your thinking. Mmmm. Let's all feel dirty. It's ok... no one will know. "Bionic Eyes" Crazy sounding shit here. Not really. It just strikes me that it sort of sounds something like The Doors did a long long time ago. Not the chorus, more the verses. Just get this Doors vibe... Maybe I'm just crazy. Oh wait, yeah, I am. "Friend of Mine" Another mid-tempo song. Interesting. Egg sounding. "Let The Night Come" ...:keep it alive, keep you coming back...i'm always so frightened you'll see through my act. In summation... I think the record is great. I've been listening non-stop. Literally. Maybe I'm just more open about all this pop production. I despise Avril and the rest of the pop whores. Liz is not becoming one of these. Maybe she likes Hollywood. Maybe she wants radio hits. That's fine. I love hearing her voice. And I love that she's still got a sense of humor, and can give a big "fuck you!" to anyone that she wants to. It isn't Exile, It isn't Whip-Smart, it's not The Egg and it certainly isn't Girly Sound. All those records and recordings have a place in time that means something to us, or at least I hope they do for everyone... but let's move past this hi-fi vs. lo-fi, selling out, hollywood lube job, she's lost her marbles, i'm disappointed, i'm dreading the record shit and give it a chance when you hear it. She's still Liz. And she still knows how to rock and have fun. But of course, that's just my opinion on the record. As always... flame away. I expect it. So I'll leave you with what I think sums up everything that I've read for the past year... "Your record collection don't exist, you don't even know who Liz Phair is" - -Michael Now Playing: "Liz Phair" - Liz Phair ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 04:40:38 -0500 From: Jase Subject: Michael's review Michael, thanks for posting your review of the record. I'm glad to see that "Firewalker" made it on there; I was starting to worry that it wouldn't, since so many other songs were recorded. Does it still have that great piano break in the middle? That was always one of my favorite parts. Are the verses for "It's a War" similar to those of "Love/Hate Transmission?" I'm glad a reworking of it was included on the record. I like the live versions of "Love/Hate" that I've heard, but the recording quality isn't that great on a lot of those boots. In your opinion, is "Why Can't I?" the best choice for the first single, or is there another song that's more representative of the record? I hope you don't mind all of the questions -- the album's release is still pretty far off, your review piqued my curiosity, and I don't know if I can wait to find out for myself. Cheers, Jase ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 05:04:45 -0500 From: Jase Subject: Re: liz article in the chgo trib LilRussianGirl@aol.com wrote: >did someone already mention the article about Liz in the trib? it was at >the top of page 2, section 2 on the arts reviews and news page. there's a >picture of Liz performing at sbsw and a fairly long article. > >all you really need is the title - "Phair older but not better" and the >final sentence "The question left unanswered was just how adventurous is >chasing the sound of Avril Lavigne-especially from an artist who once >paved the way for an artist like Lavigne to even exist?" to get the gist >of it. > > But if no one's posted the text let me know and I'll type it up to post > for ya'll. Let me know... Steve Kisko forwarded the Tribune article to me a few days ago. I'd been meaning to pass it along, but forgot all about it until I saw your post. To save you from typing it up, here it is copy-and-pasted from Steve's e-mail: Phair `older,' but not better By Greg Kot Tribune rock critic Published March 17, 2003 AUSTIN, TEXAS -- News flash from the South by Southwest Music and Media Conference, which concluded Sunday: "I'm not a stoned 25-year-old anymore," Liz Phair declared. "I'm older and more together." The singer-songwriter was trying to make the case for her first album in five years, "Liz Phair," which won't be out till June 24. But it's never too soon to start promoting in a music industry struggling to reverse a two-year tide of declining sales. South by Southwest--five days of band showcases and panels for 4,000 musicians, record-company executives, retailers, programmers and journalists--is widely regarded as the premier place to preview the year's biggest new bands and most-talked-about albums, and Phair hopes to have one of them. This was a far different Phair than the Wicker Park singer-songwriter who crafted the 1993 indie-rock landmark, "Exile in Guyville." She may not be a stoned 25-year-old anymore, but what she appears to have become is not necessarily an improvement. After performing a handful of songs and playing a few others from the new album, it sounds as though Phair is fresh off a Hollywood lube job. In her performance, Phair came across as much more assured, exhibiting none of the stage fright that has plagued her in the past and displaying a voice that is rangier and fuller than before. The Los Angeles resident sounds like a pro--a fate that hardly could have been foreseen a decade ago. Artistry is another matter, however. At first listen, the new album is far removed from the sparse, idiosyncratic power that made "Exile" a classic. She described the new album as something of a "greatest hits" from five years of songwriting and recording with various collaborators, including Pete Yorn and Michael Penn. With its layered, arena-rock sheen, "Liz Phair" plays like the singer's response to the new wave of pseudo-punky mainstream pop divas, notably Pink and Avril Lavigne. Phair even uses Lavigne producers the Matrix on one of the more bombastic tracks she previewed, the likely single "Extraordinary." The songs range from deeply personal--"Little Dear" was inspired by her young son's reaction to seeing her with another man after her divorce, she said--to deeply raunchy. One lovemaking ode celebrating "my secret beauty routine" sounds like the soundtrack to a porn flick. "It's good to break boundaries for women and girls," Phair said while justifying the track. That makes about as much sense as Larry Flynt running for president of NOW. Phair was interviewed in a public forum by the newly installed president of the National Academy of Recording Arts and Sciences, Neil Portnow, who succeeded the controversial Michael Greene. Unfortunately, Phair did herself no favors. "Don't hate me because I'm a rock star," she said while regaling the audience with tales of exotic boat parties. And she used the word "brilliant" several times to describe her work. But there was no quibbling when she said, "I'm fully tainted by the record business, and I'm still going there [to compete for hits]." It may be a solid strategy for selling records, but in the process, Phair sounds as though she's lost touch with what made people love her music. "I do anticipate criticism," she said. The question left unanswered was just how adventurous is chasing the sound and sales of Avril Lavigne--especially from an artist who once paved the way for an artist like Lavigne to even exist? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:50:01 -0500 (EST) From: Valerie Subject: all that swearing... hi all... all this discussion of the "shock value" of "white hot cum" (eew. even typing it feels icky.) reminds me of a cute WCSE anecdote. my cousin used to write music reviews for orbit, a now-defunct detroit newsweekly (monthly?). i was home visiting and he had an advance copy of WCSE. i had him play it so i could get my first listen, and grandma happened to be sitting there, wanted to see what we were listening to and checked out the CD case. she shook her head and said, definitively, "i don't like it," because of the title "shitloads of money." this is a woman who can handle extreme violence in movies, but doesn't understand why they have to use "all that swearing." so very cute...i wonder what *she'd* think of "WHC" *shudder*. anyway, the release date of the new album is my birthday (32!), and i don't like crappy presents...so i'm crossing my fingers. saw cat power at the atlanta show last week...i'm a cat power newbie (as in, the only song i could identify was the white stripes cover), but she held it together and put on a great performance, i'll probably buy her music as a result of it. xo..valerie b. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 05:58:26 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Alan Doak" Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! I would like to take this opportunity to answer a couple e-mails I received... Well, as Charles mentioned in his e-mail, I think I have one of those non-official promo's coming. As a rule I only collect official releases but I was so excited that the mouse was clicking away on the buy buttons faster than my brain was digesting the situation. OK. I'm so starved for new Liz, that at this point, I probably would have bought it anyway. When I get it, I'll list the tracks on my copy to compare with what other people have found, and whether it's a CDR copy or official. I'm not holding my breath on the official-ness. I'll post my own reviews of each song, but you'll have to take that with a grain of salt. After following this list for a number of years, I've determined that I like Liz's music for different reasons than the majority of the members. I'm not going to copy and distribute the songs. I don't believe in sharing copies of songs that are or will be commercially available. Even though I have a lot of heartburn with the music industry, I have enough respect for the artists themselves not to distribute their commercially available music. j. ===== This "Ad" belongs to me - J. Alan Doak Visit my website: http://www.its-official.com The following "Ad" belongs to somebody else, and may not be endorsed by me. -j. Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 07:18:30 -0800 From: "Jeffrey Gray" Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! Just so you can justify your position on paying for album advances: Paying money for advanced copies is a FEDERAL offense and punishable as such. It's not anyone's property to sell but the copyright holder's. Blah Blah blah you're a fan and need your fix and you love Liz sure. But you're only directly taking money from her pockets and putting it into some random asshole's who got the copy FREE as a courtesy. Do you wonder why record companies can justify charging exorbant fees? You're sure as hell helping them justify the costs more than you're fighting them back. I hope you're happy hypocrit. "I dont believe in sharing songs that will be commercially available". Right, you dont but the record company seems to want to share it for free with persons. You're just willing to pay someone for their free copy. Here I am at work making sure our artists get every penny they deserve coming to them in an extremely fair and amazing company. You better damn well believe I'm going to get ticked when I see people buying and selling promotional copies that artists give us to distribute for advertising. To clarify Liz Phair is not a bug client (but should be)and I do not collect monies for her in any fashion. That's her record company/publishing's job to weed out criminals like you. - -----Original Message----- From: "J. Alan Doak" To: support-system@smoe.org Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 05:58:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! > I would like to take this opportunity to answer a > couple e-mails I received... > > Well, as Charles mentioned in his e-mail, I think I > have one of those non-official promo's coming. As a > rule I only collect official releases but I was so > excited that the mouse was clicking away on the buy > buttons faster than my brain was digesting the > situation. > > OK. I'm so starved for new Liz, that at this point, I > probably would have bought it anyway. > > When I get it, I'll list the tracks on my copy to > compare with what other people have found, and whether > it's a CDR copy or official. I'm not holding my > breath on the official-ness. I'll post my own reviews > of each song, but you'll have to take that with a > grain of salt. After following this list for a number > of years, I've determined that I like Liz's music for > different reasons than the majority of the members. > > I'm not going to copy and distribute the songs. I > don't believe in sharing copies of songs that are or > will be commercially available. Even though I have a > lot of heartburn with the music industry, I have > enough respect for the artists themselves not to > distribute their commercially available music. > > j. > > ===== > This "Ad" belongs to me - J. Alan Doak > Visit my website: http://www.its-official.com > > The following "Ad" belongs to somebody else, > and may not be endorsed by me. -j. > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:38:38 -0600 From: "INMAN, DAVID B" Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! I gotta pipe in on this one - I'll buy whatever music I can commercial or not by an artist - HOWEVER I ALWAYS purchase the commercial product as well. Funny, it's usually the non-commercial stuff that gets me hooked on the artist... - -----Original Message----- From: Jeffrey Gray [mailto:jeffrey@bugmusic.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:19 AM To: J. Alan Doak; support-system@smoe.org Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! Just so you can justify your position on paying for album advances: Paying money for advanced copies is a FEDERAL offense and punishable as such. It's not anyone's property to sell but the copyright holder's. Blah Blah blah you're a fan and need your fix and you love Liz sure. But you're only directly taking money from her pockets and putting it into some random asshole's who got the copy FREE as a courtesy. Do you wonder why record companies can justify charging exorbant fees? You're sure as hell helping them justify the costs more than you're fighting them back. I hope you're happy hypocrit. "I dont believe in sharing songs that will be commercially available". Right, you dont but the record company seems to want to share it for free with persons. You're just willing to pay someone for their free copy. Here I am at work making sure our artists get every penny they deserve coming to them in an extremely fair and amazing company. You better damn well believe I'm going to get ticked when I see people buying and selling promotional copies that artists give us to distribute for advertising. To clarify Liz Phair is not a bug client (but should be)and I do not collect monies for her in any fashion. That's her record company/publishing's job to weed out criminals like you. - -----Original Message----- From: "J. Alan Doak" To: support-system@smoe.org Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 05:58:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! > I would like to take this opportunity to answer a > couple e-mails I received... > > Well, as Charles mentioned in his e-mail, I think I > have one of those non-official promo's coming. As a > rule I only collect official releases but I was so > excited that the mouse was clicking away on the buy > buttons faster than my brain was digesting the > situation. > > OK. I'm so starved for new Liz, that at this point, I > probably would have bought it anyway. > > When I get it, I'll list the tracks on my copy to > compare with what other people have found, and whether > it's a CDR copy or official. I'm not holding my > breath on the official-ness. I'll post my own reviews > of each song, but you'll have to take that with a > grain of salt. After following this list for a number > of years, I've determined that I like Liz's music for > different reasons than the majority of the members. > > I'm not going to copy and distribute the songs. I > don't believe in sharing copies of songs that are or > will be commercially available. Even though I have a > lot of heartburn with the music industry, I have > enough respect for the artists themselves not to > distribute their commercially available music. > > j. > > ===== > This "Ad" belongs to me - J. Alan Doak > Visit my website: http://www.its-official.com > > The following "Ad" belongs to somebody else, > and may not be endorsed by me. -j. > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! > http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:05:30 -0800 From: "Jeffrey Gray" Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! Well you're a regular saint and saviour of your own soul I guess. I'm sure making sure to buy the commercially released product helps you sleep better at night. I dont know how many bonafied fans enjoy ripping of their favorites, but I guess it's more common than not. By continuing to buy promotional copies of commercial product you're supporting as business that does not support the artist. Sure the big bad record company has got flaws...but Liz Phair does have to recoup advances that they provide to her. Have you ever worked for a company that pays you in a loan? It's a tough business and buy helping "Scalpers" of promotional albums you're only hurting the artist and ultimately your pocketbook. Even getting a free copy of a promo album burned is better than paying for it. At least no money is going to someone who has no legal right whatsoever to sell the product. But it's all ok right. I mean you bought the one copy from a legitimate source so Liz (or any other artist) is halfway compensated for her work. She'll only have to raise ticket and t-shirt prices by half as much to cover her advance. Unless Liz (or any other artist) has an AMAZING contract (i.e. is able to sell in Led Zeppelin numbers) she's paying for those promo pressings as well. Whether or not it's fair for the record company to do this, she willingly signed the contract. Support artists. You're not showing the big bad record company a damn thing by cheating Liz from money. If she can't sell enough, they can always drop her as a tax write off. - -----Original Message----- From: "INMAN, DAVID B" To: "'Jeffrey Gray'" , "J. Alan Doak" , support-system@smoe.org Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:38:38 -0600 Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! > I gotta pipe in on this one - I'll buy whatever music I can commercial > or not by an artist - HOWEVER I ALWAYS purchase the commercial product > as well. > > Funny, it's usually the non-commercial stuff that gets me hooked on the > artist... > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeffrey Gray [mailto:jeffrey@bugmusic.com] > Sent: Wednesday, March 26, 2003 9:19 AM > To: J. Alan Doak; support-system@smoe.org > Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! > > > Just so you can justify your position on paying for album advances: > Paying money for advanced copies is a FEDERAL offense and punishable as > such. It's not anyone's property to sell but the copyright holder's. > Blah Blah blah you're a fan and need your fix and you love Liz sure. > But > you're only directly taking money from her pockets and putting it into > some random asshole's who got the copy FREE as a courtesy. Do you > wonder > why record companies can justify charging exorbant fees? You're sure as > hell helping them justify the costs more than you're fighting them > back. > I hope you're happy hypocrit. "I dont believe in sharing songs that > will > be commercially available". Right, you dont but the record company > seems > to want to share it for free with persons. You're just willing to pay > someone for their free copy. > Here I am at work making sure our artists get every penny they > deserve coming to them in an extremely fair and amazing company. You > better damn well believe I'm going to get ticked when I see people > buying > and selling promotional copies that artists give us to distribute for > advertising. To clarify Liz Phair is not a bug client (but should > be)and > I do not collect monies for her in any fashion. That's her record > company/publishing's job to weed out criminals like you. > > -----Original Message----- > From: "J. Alan Doak" > To: support-system@smoe.org > Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 05:58:26 -0800 (PST) > Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! > > > I would like to take this opportunity to answer a > > couple e-mails I received... > > > > Well, as Charles mentioned in his e-mail, I think I > > have one of those non-official promo's coming. As a > > rule I only collect official releases but I was so > > excited that the mouse was clicking away on the buy > > buttons faster than my brain was digesting the > > situation. > > > > OK. I'm so starved for new Liz, that at this point, I > > probably would have bought it anyway. > > > > When I get it, I'll list the tracks on my copy to > > compare with what other people have found, and whether > > it's a CDR copy or official. I'm not holding my > > breath on the official-ness. I'll post my own reviews > > of each song, but you'll have to take that with a > > grain of salt. After following this list for a number > > of years, I've determined that I like Liz's music for > > different reasons than the majority of the members. > > > > I'm not going to copy and distribute the songs. I > > don't believe in sharing copies of songs that are or > > will be commercially available. Even though I have a > > lot of heartburn with the music industry, I have > > enough respect for the artists themselves not to > > distribute their commercially available music. > > > > j. > > > > ===== > > This "Ad" belongs to me - J. Alan Doak > > Visit my website: http://www.its-official.com > > > > The following "Ad" belongs to somebody else, > > and may not be endorsed by me. -j. > > Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your > desktop! > > http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 09:59:00 -0600 From: "Brooke, Robert" Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! Jeffrey Gray Wrote: "Just so you can justify your position on paying for album advances: Paying money for advanced copies is a FEDERAL offense and punishable as such. It's not anyone's property to sell but the copyright holder's. Blah Blah blah you're a fan and need your fix and you love Liz sure. But you're only directly taking money from her pockets and putting it into some random asshole's who got the copy FREE as a courtesy. Do you wonder why record companies can justify charging exorbant fees? You're sure as hell helping them justify the costs more than you're fighting them back. I hope you're happy hypocrit." Jeff I was gonna write the same thing but you just type faster than me. Thanks for writing all of that. I'm glad you got that off my chest. Rob ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 08:54:19 -0800 (PST) From: Kate Stewart Subject: promo CD Ok, if anyone has a promo CD, could we please, please, please start a CD tree thing? Please? Is that completely illegal? At this point, I'm willing to spend years in jail to get my hands on one of those before June 24. Come on people, can we work together on this one? Feel free to email me off list. Kate Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 12:20:43 -0500 From: Jase Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! "Jeffrey Gray" wrote: >I dont know how many bonafied fans enjoy ripping of >their favorites, but I guess it's more common than not. By continuing to >buy promotional copies of commercial product you're supporting as >business that does not support the artist. Admittedly maybe I'm not following this completely, but how exactly is he ripping off the artist? From what I gather, he is still going to purchase the album when it is officially released; that sale is indeed going to support the artist. >But it's all ok right. I mean you bought the one copy from a legitimate >source so Liz (or any other artist) is halfway compensated for her work. >She'll only have to raise ticket and t-shirt prices by half as much to >cover her advance. How does one thing relate to the other? The record label doesn't recoup royalties from ticket and t-shirt sales, only from album sales. Quite often the artist digs themself deeper into the hole by getting tour support from the label; not only is the label not receiving any money from ticket sales, they're helping to finance the tour (even though the money is recoupable). The artist may raise ticket and t-shirt prices in order to make more money, especially if they're not seeing much from the sales of their albums ... but again, this person is still going to purchase the album when it comes out. The promo is just going to tide him over in the meantime. >Unless Liz (or any other artist) has an AMAZING contract (i.e. is able >to sell in Led Zeppelin numbers) she's paying for those promo pressings >as well. Whether or not it's fair for the record company to do this, she >willingly signed the contract. Support artists. You're not showing the >big bad record company a damn thing by cheating Liz from money. If she >can't sell enough, they can always drop her as a tax write off. The artist may be paying for the promo pressings, but that promo was already pressed, whether or not it was going to be used as a legit review/promo copy or for any other reason (including resale). The record label and the artist don't know what it'll be used for after it leaves their hands; tons of promos probably never even get played. The fact is, though, the money was already spent on the promo pressings, they decided how many to make and send out, and it's not like they go back and manufacture more at further expense just because some of the copies weren't used for their legitimate purpose. No matter what each copy ends up being used for, it was already pressed and paid for. That money would have to be recouped even if no one who received the promo ever played it. I could see how it would be cheating the artist if you only bought the promo and didn't buy the official release afterwards, but if you go out and buy the real thing when the time comes, how are you not supporting the artist? I'm not condemning or justifying either side here; I'm just confused as to where you're coming from. Unless there's more to it than I realize, it just seems to me that this isn't that much different from downloading an album from a file-sharing program prior to its release, then going out and buying the real thing once it's in stores. And you know it's only a matter of time before MP3s start circulating -- songs from the new White Stripes album started showing up on WinMX a couple of months ago and the record's still not out until next Tuesday. Jase ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2003 13:31:46 -0800 (PST) From: "J. Alan Doak" Subject: RE: "Happy Tragic Thing" PROMO!!!!!! Jeff, You wrote: "you're only directly taking money from her pockets" "I mean you bought the one copy from a legitimate source so Liz (or any other artist) is halfway compensated for her work." "does have to recoup advances" "cheating Liz from money" Question #1 Several times you mentioned that artists are cheated out of money when promo copies of CDs are sold, but promo copies are given out for FREE. Am I correct? That's what promotional means. Noone paid the artist (or record company) for it, and it was not intended to be paid for. So how can anyone lose money? Granted, the promo copy may not be used as it was intended, but I still don't see how anyone lost money. If I still buy the album when it is released - and I will - how has anyone actually lost money? Question #2 Now I know that being ignorant of the law, does not make me exempt, but I need some clarification on my criminal status. The way I've always understood the law is that it is illegal to SELL promo copies. In this case, Joe Schmoe has made money off a CD that he did not have to pay for, and did not have a right to sell. Liz did not lose money, I did. I paid for a CD that I should have gotten for free. That doesn't make me a criminal; it makes Joe a criminal, and me a schmuck. Question #3 I said, "I dont believe in sharing songs that will be commercially available." You said, "Right, you dont but the record company seems to want to share it for free with persons. You're just willing to pay someone for their free copy." You also said that "Even getting a free copy of a promo album burned is better than paying for it" You've totally lost me. That is about as backwards as you can get! Are you honestly telling me that it is better for Joe Schmoe to make copies of his promo and hand them out, instead of collecting $15 for one original? In that scenario, record sales are potentially hit, not only by the owner of the one original, but owners of the copies. Now I know I'm not part of the record industry, and "not in the know," but it seems to me the record company knows how many promo CDs they are passing out, and also know that record sales will potentially be impacted by that number. I would imagine this is called an "acceptable loss of sales" or something similar in the name of advertising and promotion, i.e., "The cost of doing business." However, once someone starts copying the CD, even once, this "acceptable loss in sales" has been passed. Of course, this loss only happens when the person with the copy does not buy the official copy. Unfortunately, this happens all too oftem these days. As I've said, I will be buying the CD. I'll be standing in line the day it comes out, and I'll also be buying the singles, despite the fact that I will own the CD. j. ===== This "Ad" belongs to me - J. Alan Doak Visit my website: http://www.its-official.com The following "Ad" belongs to somebody else, and may not be endorsed by me. -j. Yahoo! Platinum - Watch CBS' NCAA March Madness, live on your desktop! http://platinum.yahoo.com ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V6 #71 ***********************************