From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V5 #250 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, December 3 2002 Volume 05 : Number 250 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Bounced message [owner-support-system@smoe.org (by way of Jase ] Top Ten & stuff [Craig King ] My top 10 of the year [Dermich@aol.com] well, fucking sigh [fallout@purdue.edu] Top Ten List [Matt Tilden ] Re: Top Ten List ["trent \[paper tigers scare me\]" ] looking at liz's new one ["Michael Kaufmann" ] please post the link again ["Megan Horn" ] top ten ["Stacy Konkiel" ] 2002 Top Ten [ReallyHip@aol.com] just a little bridge now [Stephen Griffes ] new old liz vid clip ["overpavement" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 01:59:59 -0500 From: owner-support-system@smoe.org (by way of Jase ) Subject: Bounced message From: "jz" Subject: RE: support-system-digest V5 #245 letter is great, but Joan Jett did NOT write it. check out joanjett.com for the following message from Kenny Laguna, her manager. "Hi everyone, We are sorry for the confusion, but Joan Jett did NOT write the open letter to Rolling Stone, rather it was written by Maya Price, a talented performer and writer in New York City, and it was forwarded to us. I loved the content, but we had nothing to do with writing it. Thanks for the strong response to it. Kind regards and happy thanksgiving, Kenny Laguna" > Joan Jett's Letter To RS [drpeak@juno.com] - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Hey, hate to take up space, but I was just forwarded this and thought > those on the list might want to check it out: > An Open Letter to Rolling Stone by Joan Jett This letter was written to > Rolling Stone after their "women in "rock" issue was published, but was > not printed by their editors. Please forward it to all the rocking people > you know!!!!![snipped] ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 02:00:48 -0500 From: owner-support-system@smoe.org (by way of Jase ) Subject: Bounced message From: "Katie Derdoski (work)" Subject: Joan Jett letter An interesting letterbut the credibility of it being her? Why would she refer to herself in the third person? Hm. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 03:56:51 EST From: TaliaK@aol.com Subject: "Take a Look" and thoughts After reading everyone's comments about the new song I've been listening to it and I have to say I like it. I'm also inclined to agree with the person who said that the lyrics might be aimed at her fans. All this talk about how "This just isn't Liz" and all that... well, it's her singing isn't it, so therefore it is her NOW. Yeah I know a lot of people don't want to accept that and will probably move on. But I mean, we CAN'T be expecting another EIG. Geesh, when the new album comes out it will have been a decade since EIG (assuming the album comes out next year). Everybody was talking a while ago about how much they've changed in the past few years since WCSE, how much does a person change in 10 years?! I don't even think we can expect it to be like WCSE, from what we know Liz has gone through some MAJOR life changes since she did that album. She is a human being for god's sake, not a machine to pump out songs for us. Is it so very wrong that she's decided to branch out and work with other people? With how much she's been changing producers/collaborators how do we know she's not the one having the final say as to what it's going to sound like. Maybe SHE didn't like the previous work done and scraped it. I don't really think it's our place to say what the album should sound like. Yeah, we can hope for something, and we should... but we shouldn't be angry when it doesn't sound like what we imagined. If you decide not to like it, not to buy it, and to move on with your music listening lives, then so be it... just don't bad mouth this woman who has been such a big and influential part of many people's lives on this list. She definitely broadened my musical horizons when I first started listening to her. I'm glad she's had a life and gone out and had a little fun (GAP commercials, apple commercials, back up vocals, etc). Anyway, that's my little rant... just wanted to stand up for Liz a little =) Robin L. taliak@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 07:46:07 -0500 From: Jase Subject: Re: "Take a Look" and thoughts Robin L. wrote: >After reading everyone's comments about the new song I've been listening to >it and I have to say I like it. I'm also inclined to agree with the person >who said that the lyrics might be aimed at her fans. It's possible, but Liz doesn't seem to pay much attention to what her fans think. I'm not saying that to knock her, either. She's admitted as much when she was doing press for _whitechocolatespaceegg_, that during the hiatus between _Whip-Smart_ and that album, she was completely out of touch with both the industry and her fanbase. To the best of my knowledge, she doesn't read this list, nor does she seem that privy to other discussion sites dedicated to her. That might not be such a bad thing; I know if I were a celebrity, I wouldn't want to read every single thought or opinion written about me. I don't know how many of you are registered at the Hole message board, but Courtney Love does post there sometimes and some of what's written about her on her own site has really upset her in the past. It makes sense that Liz would steer clear of forums like this. As for my interpretation, I thought at least some of the lyrics may have been about her divorce, but who knows. Unless Liz herself says what they're about, we'll never be certain. >All this talk about how >"This just isn't Liz" and all that... well, it's her singing isn't it, so >therefore it is her NOW. Yeah I know a lot of people don't want to accept >that and will probably move on. But I mean, we CAN'T be expecting another >EIG. Geesh, when the new album comes out it will have been a decade since >EIG (assuming the album comes out next year). Everybody was talking a while >ago about how much they've changed in the past few years since WCSE, how much >does a person change in 10 years?! I don't even think we can expect it to be >like WCSE, from what we know Liz has gone through some MAJOR life changes >since she did that album. Well, I'm not expecting another _Exile in Guyville_ per se, just something that strikes a chord with me, a quality album. My tastes aren't that narrow that I don't appreciate anything beyond lo-fi indie rock. Nor is _Exile_ the only work of Liz's that I like. _Whip-Smart_ ranks nearly as high for me, and while I don't like _whitechocolatespaceegg_ as much as the first two records, it still has some phenomenal songs on it. It's just not as cohesive as a whole. And that's not getting into all the great outtakes, b-sides and rarities. If you were to compile the cream of the crop, you could count it as another album's worth of great material. And yes, it's inevitable that an artist will change over the course of a decade. That's not so much my issue with all of this. It's just that it's one thing to change with your level of artistry intact, like a Joni Mitchell or a Bob Dylan. Or in the case of someone like Aimee Mann, to get increasingly better over time. With Liz, though, the overall quality of her work seems to be in decline. Again, though, it may be too soon to tell anything for certain. All I have to base this on is "Take a Look," "Down," and the handful of new songs Liz performed live throughout 1999, some of which may have been discarded by now. "Down" wasn't all that bad really, although I wouldn't want an entire record in that style. "Take a Look" feels pretty pedestrian, though. I've played it a couple of more times now, but the only thing that really grabs me is the bridge. The rest feels pretty dumbed down lyrically and the chorus isn't all that memorable. The production makes it sound like just about anything on the radio right now -- it could be by just about anyone. That's why I'm disappointed. Part of why I liked Liz so much in the first place is that she was an original; at the time, there was no one else like her. "Take a Look" just seems so generic in comparison to her past work. Deep down, I do want to like Liz's new material. If you told me even two or three years ago that I would now be questioning the direction in which she's headed, I would have laughed at you. But I can't pretend to like this song just because it's by Liz, when if it was anyone else, I wouldn't have even attempted to give it another try. And as I said in my post the other day, I do hope the rest of the new record will be better than this one particular song. >She is a human being for god's sake, not a machine >to pump out songs for us. Is it so very wrong that she's decided to branch >out and work with other people? With how much she's been changing >producers/collaborators how do we know she's not the one having the final say >as to what it's going to sound like. Maybe SHE didn't like the previous work >done and scraped it. Well, I personally don't think she's had much say in the matter. I mean, Capitol had even told her outright that she couldn't work with Brad Wood on this record and that they were going to be more "proactive in finding her a producer." (I forget if this was something that had been posted to the list previously or if it's something I had been told off-list, since it's been quite a while. Forgive me if this wasn't common knowledge.) Besides, most people with a working knowledge of the music industry could see Liz's hook up with the Matrix was orchestrated by Capitol. This is a common operating procedure at major labels for artists who underperform commercially. Most artists don't "choose" to work with hit doctors; they are forced upon them by their labels. Ask Aimee Mann about how Epic was going to force her to work with Diane Warren for the final 'Til Tuesday record. It's music as product, not music as art. Even if this was all decided by Liz herself, while she would still be pursuing her artistic vision the way she sees fit, it doesn't ultimately change the fact that not all of us are going to enjoy this new musical direction. And that doesn't mean that we're not still fans. I mean, hell, I don't really dig any of the Replacements' albums after _Tim_, but I still consider myself a fan of the band because I like the work they did previously. I just wish I could say I honestly enjoy the later records as much, but I found them disappointing. And I'm still always going to like Liz's past work. _Exile in Guyville_ is still my favorite record of all time and I've listened to it more than any other. No more than a couple of weeks go by where I don't also listen to _Whip-Smart_ or some of her other work as well. I know a lot of people want to give Liz the benefit of the doubt because she's Liz, which is fair enough, but I can't help but wonder what people would say if it was Courtney Love or Sleater-Kinney or Radiohead working with the Matrix instead. Wouldn't it seem at least a little bit questionable? Honestly. >I don't really think it's our place to say what the >album should sound like. Yeah, we can hope for something, and we should... >but we shouldn't be angry when it doesn't sound like what we imagined. But can we still be free to express our opinions if it's not everything we'd hoped? I mean, it's a matter of opinion and taste is subjective... And to use another example, it's not like I'm going to tell PJ Harvey what her next record should sound like either, but is it wrong for me to say what I wish for it to sound like? >If >you decide not to like it, not to buy it, and to move on with your music >listening lives, then so be it... just don't bad mouth this woman who has >been such a big and influential part of many people's lives on this list. Well, I don't think being critical is necessarily "bad mouthing" someone. It's just expressing an opinion. If you create art of any kind, you're going to be subject to that kind of scrutiny. Do you think fans of Paul Thomas Anderson's work don't compare his new films to the ones he's written and directed in the past? To me, "bad mouthing" someone would be attacking them personally, and I don't think anyone's really taken any swipes at Liz along those lines. >She definitely broadened my musical horizons when I first started listening >to her. I'm glad she's had a life and gone out and had a little fun (GAP >commercials, apple commercials, back up vocals, etc). Anyway, that's my >little rant... just wanted to stand up for Liz a little =) Hey, that's cool -- it's good to keep the discussion balanced. I know a lot of people think that I seem to hate Liz these days (and yes, I'm still feeling a little stung by some of the discussions a while ago), but that's really not the case. Just because I don't agree with some of her recent "choices" doesn't mean that I feel any ill will towards her. And I'm sorry if I do come on a little bit strong, but I've always been passionate about my favorites. I think I'm just feeling a little disillusioned right now. I had thought that Liz would always be my favorite artist, but I'm sort of dreading the new record because I'm scared that I won't like it. In a way, I just wish it would come out soon, so I'd at least know one way or the other. At the same time, though, I don't really want to find out. Does anyone else relate to this at all, or am I the only one? Jase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 06:30:25 -0800 (PST) From: Craig King Subject: Top Ten & stuff Ah, yes. The good old year end top ten list. Well, here goes! 1. Ausioslave - Audioslave2. Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers - The Last DJ3. Dave Pirner - Faces & Names4. Black Label Society - 1919 Eternal5. The Donnas - Spend The Night6. Foo Fighters - One By One 7. Coldplay - A Rush of Blood To The Head8. 3 Doors Down - Away From The Sun 9. Rush - Vapor Trails10. Jerry Cantrell - Degredation Trip For next year, I can't wait for new Liz, Stone Temple Pilots, Black Label Society, Anthrax, Iced Earth, Scott Weiland, Robert Deleo, and Some Girls albums. Also, I just wanted to say that after listening to 'Take a Look' about 3 times in a row, it's not as bland as I first thought. Some of the lyrics are actually really good. I'll have to give it a few more listens. Craig Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 10:32:32 -0500 From: Dermich@aol.com Subject: My top 10 of the year Maybe a little early, but this is it: 1. David Bowie - Heathen (ISO/Columbia) 2. Prick - The Wreckard (Lucky Pierre) 3. Girls Against Boys - You Can't Fight What You Can't See (Jade Tree) 4. Dead Hollywood Stars - Junctions (Hymen/Mad Monkey) 5. Yeah Yeah Yeahs - Yeah Yeah Yeahs EP (Touch & Go) - Technically originally released in 2001, but I didn't get it till March this year, and it was re-released in July. 6. The Paybacks - Knock Loud (Get Hip) 7. Queens of the Stone Age - Songs for the Deaf (Interscope) 8. Neutral - Motion Of (Hymen/Mad Monkey) 9. Pet Shop Boys - Release (Sanctuary) 10. Godspeed You! Black Emperor - Yanqui U.X.O. (Constellation) d ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 11:35:55 -0500 From: fallout@purdue.edu Subject: well, fucking sigh How is that Liz Phair, who once wanted so desperately to be my blow job queen and would off-handedly make mention to a "69 in the afternoon," repeatedly beg me to "take a look" and yet manage to remain completely blanched of sexual longing? It all sounds like a B-side from an album recorded by Aimee Mann's little sister. Most notably, a juveniled version of that "Bailing this town," ditty from Bachelor No. 2. Those little rhymy couplets make me want to puke, and then they remind of the same ghetto-ass construction used by Michelle Branch and Avril Tie. Not to be cynical, but all is lost. jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:16:44 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Tilden Subject: Top Ten List 1. Pearl Jam - Riot Act 2. Paul Westerberg - Stereo 3. Weezer - Maladroit 4. Wilco - Yankee Hotel Foxtrot 5. The Vines - Highly Evolved 6. Beck - Sea Change 7. The Hives - Veni Vidi Vicious 8. Bruce Springsteen - The Rising 9. Elvis Costello - When I Was Cruel 10. The Breeders - Title TK Honorable Mentions Robert Plant - Dreamland David Bowie - Heathen The Flaming Lips - Yoshimi Battles the Pink Robots Red Hot Chili Peppers - By The Way Foo Fighters - One By One Tori Amos - Scarlet's Walk Starsailor - Love Is Here Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now. http://mailplus.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 09:35:57 -0800 (PST) From: "trent \[paper tigers scare me\]" Subject: Re: Top Ten List 01. Tori Amos  Scarlets Walk 02. Alec Empire  Intelligence + Sacrifice 03. Kylie Minogue  Fever (U.S. edition) 04. Frou Frou  Details 05. Nine Inch Nails  And All That Could Have Been 06. Andrew W.K.  I Get Wet 07. The Breeders  Title TK 08. W.I.T.  Advance 09. Chantal Kreviazuk  What If It All Means Something? 10. No Doubt  Rock Steady ===== - --- "This thing you call Love - she smiles way too much butI'm glad you're on my side" Tori Amos - Taxi Ride ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 14:13:09 -0500 From: Dan MacDonald Subject: "take a look" at my Top 10 for 2002 loving all the Take a Look discussions...interesting... lots of negative vibes towards ole lizzy...but - so be it. personally, i am kinda liking the song. i wasn't expecting "Divorce Song" or "Shatter" or "Nashville" - maybe that's why i don't mind it. i think it's definitely for "us" - it's gotta be...in that sense, it's bitchy and sarcastic and liz sounds a wee bit fed up with a bunch of stuff...i really think it's a great part-two to "Down"...but i admit - i liked "Down" much better... Down was the "i'm so sad about the break up" song..and "take a look" is like the "okay? you wanna know what happened? you wanna seriously see? okay then - here it is, nosey bastards." you know when you break up with someone - and for the next six months, people are like "where is ?" and you just get so sick of the question you wanna lie about it and say they are out of town, or staying home, because you are so SICK of explaining that you broke up because something went SERIOUSLY wrong...then finally you snap and yer like "Fuck - we just broke up. it's done. you asked -now ya know." that's how i think this song is.. hahaha...it would be great if this was the first track on the album, like a prologue, and then the album sprawls out spanning the good, the bad and the finale of a very important relationship. all bullshit speculation on my part of course. the whole thing could certainly suck. i don't know. but with this new little "from the forthcoming album" release - perhaps we will be seeing the new album VERY VERY soon...be great to get a January or February release date.. my top 10 list for 2002 10. Sing Sing - "The Joy of Sing Sing" (i like it much better than Lush...) 09. The Gossip - "Arkansas Heat EP" (hell...i was so hyped after seeing the Gossip this year, that ANY new taste of their fantastic sound was a fresh drink of water) 08. Imperial Teen - "ON" (god bless 'em) 07. Quix-O-Tic - "Mortal Mirror" (creepy and fantastically original, as usual) 06. Dressy Bessy - "Sound Go Round" (sunshine on a rainy day) 05. Tanya Donelly - "Beautysleep" (it's no Lovesongs for Underdogs - it took time to grow on me - but i'm in love with it) 04. Yeah Yeah Yeahs (EP) (can't wait to hear the LP) 03. Sleater-Kinney - "One Beat" 02. Aimee Mann - Lost in Space (no explanation needed) 01. THE BREEDERS - "TITLE TK" (i saw about a million and a half shows this year - and my two FAVORITES were: The Breeders in February and The Breeders in July. by far my favorite album - probably not only of the year - but of the new millennium thus far. no exaggeration. sometimes i wake up in the morning - excited to pop it in...every time i hear it - i hear something different. Huffer is my ultimate summer song - and Son of Three/Off You/Sinister Foxx and London Song are not far behind..it's like an album full of perfect (and true) alternative rock anthems. bloody amazing) close runner ups go to Juliana Hatfield's "gold stars", Heather Nova's "south", Tori Amos' "scarlet's walk", and Concrete Blonde's "Group Therapy". that's about it, dan ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 16:05:57 -0500 From: "Michael Kaufmann" Subject: looking at liz's new one After listening to Take a Look, I'd have to say Down got me much more hopeful about Liz's long-awaited new work. Still, I'm with Derek on TAL. It's not bad, and some of the trademark Liz still remains to make it interesting. I like the very Liz wobble between who's being addressed--some unnamed lover or the listeners. The same thing occurs in the last verse, where it isn't clear if we've shifted to a past tense rehearsal of someone who has been scared off by knowing more about her or an explanation of that complicated life the lover's wondering about. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 23:55:06 +0000 From: "Megan Horn" Subject: please post the link again Does anyone mind posting the link to the new song again? I seemed to have missed the digest with it in there for some reason... Thanks! Megan _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 19:02:59 -0500 From: "Stacy Konkiel" Subject: top ten here's my top 8 [I just couldn't do all ten]...most of these weren't released this year, but I've _bought_ them and discovered them this year. [for clarity, I'll put the release date next to each.] oh, and these, besides sahara hotnights, are in no particular order: 1. sahara hotnights - _jennie bomb_ [2002] !!!!!!! 2. the donnas - _spend the night_ [2002] 3. the pixies - _doolittle_ [1989] 4. modest mouse - _the lonesome, crowded west_ [1997] 5. sleater-kinney - _one beat_ [2002] 6. the breeders - _title tk_ [2002] 7. le tigre - s/t & feminist sweepstakes 8. bikini kill - the first two lps [1997? (on cd)] I'm going list crazy...I'm also gonna list my top concerts this year: 1. the breeders - baltimore @ the ottobar, february 2. mooney suzuki/sahara hotnights/flaming sideburns - philly @ the khyber, november 3. the breeders - philly @ the trocadero, august 4. le tigre - philly @ the troc, august 5. sleater-kinney - philly @ the troc, october 6. the white stripes - philly @ the troc, april you know what I've learned this year? the swedish don't just make good furniture... stacy _________________________________________________________________ Protect your PC - get McAfee.com VirusScan Online http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 02 Dec 2002 22:34:38 -0500 From: ReallyHip@aol.com Subject: 2002 Top Ten Top Ten: 1. Scarlet's Walk - Tori Amos 2. Riot Act - Pearl Jam 3. Title TK - The Breeders 4. Rush Of Blood To The Head - Coldplay 5. Heathen - David Bowie 6. One By One - Foo Fighters 7. Maladroit - Weezer 8. Come Away With Me - Norah Jones 9. Australia - Howie Day (Him & Tori Amos in the same night... amazing) 10. The Rising - Bruce Springsteen Hate to admit they were on my iPod for a long time: Mizundastood - Pink The Eminem Show - Eminem ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 2 Dec 2002 23:11:22 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen Griffes Subject: just a little bridge now i deleted the digest that had the link to where everyone was hearing "take a look". i havent heard it yet...but i did a google search: Liz Phair "Take a look" and i found a link to a new music sampler from mtv2 or something and it said the song was on there. this is good news, right? that she has a song on a new music sampler? to promote an upcoming album? right right right? please? > Hey, have I shared how much I freaking LOVE LOVE LOVE an album from the > Paybacks called _Knock Loud?_ i think the paybacks are fun as hell. they put on a fantastic rockin show (i live near detroit so i've seen them a couple times) and are one of my favorite local bands right now. glad to see them mentioned here. good stuff. i do think it is time for the annual top ten lists! i agree that there has been so much good music released this year! kinda surprising. there's still lots i need to hear. the weirdest thing about htis year for me is lots of greatest hits comps by people i like (juliana, patti smith, belly, bjork...off the top of my head)...kinda weird. usually i'll only buy greatest hits collections if it's someone i like, but not enough to get their albums--usually guilty pleasures. so it's a really odd feeling when artists whose records i've been buying for years put out "hits" or "faves" compilations. it's never really happened before and then this year bang bang bang. kinda bizarre! the blondie and X re-releases were a treat too...kinda hurt my bank acct but i found a store that had them all for $9 a piece, so it wasnt as bad as it mighta been ;) anyways. i'll think about my list. steve "blue isn't red. everybody knows this." -tori amos. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 3 Dec 2002 00:01:44 -0500 From: "overpavement" Subject: new old liz vid clip this one from an old public access cable show in chicago, called JBTV, probably from 1994. a bit under-the-influence, i suspect, but the upside is seeing a very relaxed, guard-down liz, chatting about her hometown, her family, her jobs, and her fear of puppets that come to life... take a look: http://members.fortunecity.com/philms01/ your level of interest (and patience) in this >25MB clip may heavily depend on your bandwidth speed. o? ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V5 #250 ************************************