From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V5 #189 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, September 24 2002 Volume 05 : Number 189 Today's Subjects: ----------------- avril, trombino ["john kim" ] Give A Bitch A Break [Juvenilia@aol.com] i have something to say.. ["ree" ] Here Goes Nothing... [JMichaelRecords@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V5 #188 [Talula0474@aol.com] Give A Bitch A Break [RBRainee@aol.com] liz and all those producers... [RbSayre@aol.com] [none] ["Drew Schultz" ] Re: liz and all those producers... ["Ben Oliver" ] Re: liz and all those producers... [Jase ] Re: support-system-digest V5 #188 [Johnnycass631@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V5 #188 [Jase ] more about the matrix [Kenneth Lee ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 03:24:21 -0400 From: "john kim" Subject: avril, trombino as long as the songs are good, i don't care who liz works with. i'm not going to judge the songs until they come out. although their resumes don't look all that promising to me. it's funny to see where the list will draw the line as far as cred and stuff like that goes. i mean, i remember hating wcse b/c it sounded too much like jewel and sheryl crow and everyone came to jewel and sheryl's defense. and despite what you might think about their songwriting abilities (not to mention in comparison to avril) neither of them are indie or have the same pedigree or scene cred that liz once had. oh, the 6'1" days (the music and this email list). i'm coping by being in full denial that liz came up with the idea but that capitol is strong arming her into it or else they'll drop her or accuse her of being in breach of contract. as far as mark trombino, he's done a lot, starting mostly w/ san diego bands: drive like jehu, rocket from the crypt, heavy vegetable, no knife, blink -182 (enema of the state) that's when he got huge. _________________________________________________________________ Chat with friends online, try MSN Messenger: http://messenger.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 04:55:42 EDT From: Juvenilia@aol.com Subject: Give A Bitch A Break An ex-boyfriend of mine was/is a huge fan of Lauren Christy (one-third of the Matrix writing team). In 1993, she released her debut self-titled album, which wasn't very appealing to me, but it did exhibit some strong songwriting. Her 1997 follow-up 'Breed' however, was a complete 180 degree turnaround in both sound and production. To be frank, it sounded like a blatant effort to absorb some of the fire that Alanis' album was generating. Deservedly, it flopped. Since then, Lauren has kept to just writing for other people and while I'm not impressed with her roster of clients, I'm not going to be quick to shun her or any other rumored collaborator on Liz's pending album based on their musical past. Whether it be Michael Penn, Pete Yorn, Lauren Christy or whomever else, you people can rip on who Liz ends up working with all you want. The bottom line is, you haven't heard any of the material yet. It may be good. It may suck ass. Just don't don't knock it before you try it. We're Liz's fans. Let's give her some god damn credit. Sometimes, Robbie (who is anxiously awaiting Lisa Germano's upcoming album, "Lullaby For Liquid Pig") "People think I'm such a mess. It doesn't make any sense 'Cause I don't see That me." -- LISA GERMANO http://faithlessangel.com/mttw/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 05:01:03 -0700 From: "ree" Subject: i have something to say.. >>P.S. I wish Courtney would work with Avril Lavine--that way more people >>would hate her too-- >OK, let me guess, you're another obsessed Nirvana fan who gets their kicks >by slamming Courtney Love at every opportunity? Isn't that so 1994? It's >been done to death. Get a new shtick already. >Your ilk can all shut up already. You're getting your goddamn box set. >Nirvana, in my opinion, are extremely overrated anyway. The Pixies were >_far_ better. >Sorry to be so snide, but I read enough of this shit whenever I log onto >Courtney's message board. - --------------- jase, you are being such an asshole. sorry to be so snide but sometimes i just get so sick of people who snap at people cruelly, jump to conclusions, and act like their opinion should be treated as gospel. adding "in my opinion", an "apology", and a middle school insult like, "Isn't that so 1994?" doesn't make your use of "shut up" and "goddam" any less appalling. i was having a conversation with a friend of mine who is also on this list about why we don't feel comfortable writing to the list and it came down to the fact that this list is just filled with negativity and we feel like we might get attacked by saying something wrong. i wonder why we'd ever feel like that? and jase, you by far are the most negative person on this list about liz and i think that's pretty shitty, since you're the owner of it. everybody, we are all on this list because we are fans of liz phair (at least, we should be) and the person who runs the list has given up on her based on who she might be working with. or because some personal info he found out about her (that he won't tell us by the way) that made him lose respect for her. or because her modeling and movie are signs that she wants to go all hollywood. i know a lot of you share those concerns and that's fine. sometimes i wonder a little bit, myself. but doesn't anyone else here feel like our list owner constantly tells us how and why we should feel a certain way? you know, his way? i know at least one other person besides me does. do you think i'm a fan of avril levigne? of course i'm not, but i agree with those few people who say that just because she is working with people who worked with avril doesn't mean her music is going to sound the same. i'm just going to wait around and see if this album ever comes out and then i'll form an opinion. hey, it might be total commercial sell out crap (i would never say that it couldn't happen) or it might be the best work she's ever done (also possible) but i'm not going to sit around and moan and bitch about something that i haven't even heard yet. there's more to life, you know. basically, i'm going to have faith in liz for the time being because i'm a fan of her work. that's why i joined this list. jase, as soon as someone says something like what i just said you lash out at them. why is your opinion always said in a way where it's better and more realistic than ours? you constantly shut people down, and i think that's so wrong as a list owner. i don't ever see your arguments as a conversation with differing opinions. it's more like, this is how it is because i say so and you should take my word for it. and that does not make a good list owner. notice, i can't even bring myself to call you a list moderator. you're not. which is exactly why you suck at your job, because you're supposed to be the moderator! every list should have a moderator and we don't! and you don't like liz anymore to boot! i think it's crazy that you continue to run this list and spread your liz hate throughout it. you can't even keep a website for the list or get the phairities project running. i can't help but feel it's because you've given up on her. if you're so disinterested in liz why not step down and give the list to someone else who actually likes her. maybe a person who can actually keep a website for the list and make the list more of a community and a friendlier place. what is the point of being on a list, let alone being the owner of a list for an art ist that you don't like anymore? i'm letting all my feelings out so i might as well say what's been on my mind about phairities real quick. you'll have to forgive me for continuing to write to jase personally and the list as a whole at the same time. i don't know another way to do it. about 11 months ago i wrote to the list and kindly suggested that jase hand over the cds to someone else to distribute if he was so busy. so that they could get the cd circulating. i even offered my time to do it because i was having a slow semester, but i got not one response. then finally months and months later you, jase, offered to do what i had previously suggested. i know for a fact people volunteered to start a tree because not only did you tell me but i have a friend on the list who offered to do it during her summer vacation. so what's the hold up? Did anyone ever tell you not to make promises that you can't keep? i've gotten so sick of you hanging these cds over our heads. i and i'm sure everyone else was really excited about getting these liz rarities and you just refuse to follow through on your promise. and now you want to make some of the songs available online while we wait even longer. we're going to be waiting forever and why not take the time it takes to upload the songs (which you'll probably never do) and put the cd in an envelope and mail it off to someone? it really doesn't take that much time. if someone had the cd and offered it to the first ten people who emailed and those people in turn offered it to ten more people or whatever it could still circulate without having to even plan a tree. this just really pisses me off. why did you even bother telling the list you were going to do this in the first place? so hey, instead of writing a long winded response to this email or another email about how much you hate liz or another email with a mean attack on someone or many countless emails about other artists why don't you get up and mail these phairities cds (which you've already said are completed, so what's the problem already) to someone and save yourself from looking like a flake who is never going to come through. don't worry about needing to say something nasty to me because i'm unsubbing from this list. it's just not worth my time. there's enough hate in the world. i don't need to get more of it from a mailing list. - --sherry ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:17:30 EDT From: JMichaelRecords@aol.com Subject: Here Goes Nothing... I'm going to defend The Matrix (well at least part of it). I seem to remember a few years ago a good portion of the people on this list were bopping their heads to a new track "by this girl Lauren Christy" called "Breed". Lauren is very much like Liz. She wrote virtually all of her own songs and never really hit it with the masses. When you try and try to make enough to live and eat comfortably sometimes you do things that you never would have done before. When you go home and the only thing on the table is a contract to write a Backstreet Boys tune the first thing I would do is think of how many times they would say "baby, baby" in their new song. I'm VERY sure that I'll get flamed all over for this, but... Bring it on. I've been a big Lauren Christy fan since I first heard her solo CD and I was elated to see that she had "made it" even if no one really knows who she is, and even more thrilled to hear Avril's record, and now I'm really psyched to hear Liz's collaborations with her. Sort of a full circle kind of deal. And if the road that Lauren took will help Liz & family to live more comfortably, we would be jerkoffs if we went against it. As a last note, I can't stand people that really get into someon's music and then call them sellouts later on. I was reading a letter to the editor of an industry mag and they were expressing the same feelings. The woman that wrote the letter told of how she knew people that considered breaking up with their boyfriends because they still listen to Dashboard Coffessional or something like that. Well, I suppose I've let off enough to breathe now. Jake ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 08:33:42 EDT From: Talula0474@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V5 #188 Tori Amos is the only one who seems to come through--a new album every damn year. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:20:31 -0400 From: RBRainee@aol.com Subject: Give A Bitch A Break Just wanted to say I agree with the below comments. I only recently joined this mailing list, but have been a fan of Liz since Guyville came out. I sort of lost contact with what was going on with her, so I joined the list in the hopes of getting back in the loop, so to speak. I was a bit let down when all I read so far was everyone griping about who she is apparently collaborating with for her upcoming album. It really bugs me when people cry "sell out" every time an artist tries to do something different to their style of music. To me, there is a fine line between selling out and changing the sound a bit. You can't have the same sounding album each time, that gets boring. Loyal "fans" started to call Ani DiFranco a sell out when she began added other instruments to her music and doing other things they claimed she was always against as an indie artist, such as, appearing on David Letterman. To me, I've always taken it as she got to be on Letterman due to her own credentials, so she earned a spot on the show. Not that she never wanted to be on a show like that, just that she got their on her own. You can't really criticize Liz for something you haven't really heard yet. Personally, I will wait for Liz's album to come out and decide then if I like it or not. On a sidenote...I happen to like the Pete Yorn record. _____________________________________________________________ An ex-boyfriend of mine was/is a huge fan of Lauren Christy (one-third of the Matrix writing team). In 1993, she released her debut self-titled album, which wasn't very appealing to me, but it did exhibit some strong songwriting. Her 1997 follow-up 'Breed' however, was a complete 180 degree turnaround in both sound and production. To be frank, it sounded like a blatant effort to absorb some of the fire that Alanis' album was generating. Deservedly, it flopped. Since then, Lauren has kept to just writing for other people and while I'm not impressed with her roster of clients, I'm not going to be quick to shun her or any other rumored collaborator on Liz's pending album based on their musical past. Whether it be Michael Penn, Pete Yorn, Lauren Christy or whomever else, you people can rip on who Liz ends up working with all you want. The bottom line is, you haven't heard any of the material yet. It may be good. It may suck ass. Just don't don't knock it before you try it. We're Liz's fans. Let's give her some god damn credit. Sometimes, Robbie (who is anxiously awaiting Lisa Germano's upcoming album, "Lullaby For Liquid Pig") "People think I'm such a mess. It doesn't make any sense 'Cause I don't see That me." - -- LISA GERMANO http://faithlessangel.com/mttw/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:31:04 EDT From: RbSayre@aol.com Subject: liz and all those producers... i did recognize one of the names of the um "matrix"- Lauren Christy, who had released a kind of... tori amos-lite album back in 93ish. she had a much better song on the soundtrack for batman & robin a few years ago, but still, eh.... i dunno- i kind of equate the whole situation to kevin smith casting the devil's concubine, j-lo, in his new film. i'm incredibly wary & not really looking forward to it as much as i usually would be, but i keep telling myself that hey... it's kevin and it'll be totally cool. um. i hope. - -rick listening to jennifer nettles band/rewind *look out for me, i seem to be growing better raise high the roof beams* Let's Face It, Kids... rick's webpage *this is my stolen time, my piece of the sky my storyline... my, how it flies..* -tanya donelly ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 10:59:28 -0500 From: "Drew Schultz" Subject: [none] Jase, OK, in my post, did I bitch about the record taking so long? Yeah, I may have covered that in the past, but this post was expressing my distaste in regards to who Liz is working with. I wasn't addressing you directly with my comment about people ripping on Liz for taking so long to get the new record out. It was for the whole list. I have to agree that the song "complicated" is shit. I don't like it. There are songs on her record that will never get airplay because they are not what "mainstream" is all about right now. That is what is most upsetting. Artists that are good and should receive airplay are being pushed aside to make room for the next Britney Spears or Pink. I don't even listen to the radio anymore, because it's ruled by music that all sounds the same and their is no real soul or feeling to it. I said she is amazingly gifted in the respect that she wrote all of the songs on her record and plays guitar. I wasn't comparing their writing styles. What I meant by she is like a young Liz is she writes songs that have a deep meaning to her. No, Britney Spears is not gifted at all. She doesn't write her own songs and she can't sing. She is the definition of "factory" produced pop. She had VERY little talent and they exploited her to try to get their profits up. Actually I don't even consider her to have ANY talent. There are very few pop "artists" that are even remotely worth spending time listening to. I don't know what got me to even listen to the Avril Lavigne record. Would you rather I be dishonest and be a total sycophant and like everything Liz does, simply because it's her that's doing it, but meanwhile, if it was anyone else, I'd honestly loathe it? Would that make me a true fan then? The music Liz seems intent on making is not the kind that made us fans of her work in the first place. Why should we have to pretend to like something when we really don't? And I have a feeling that's exactly what some people are doing. But man, it sucks when you have to talk yourself into liking a record. Also a true fan is one that supports the artists that they like and if you like them buy their music and if you don't like them don't. My wording was screwed up I wasn't saying that you should like them just because their older material was good. Reading my own post it did seem now that I was trying to push my musical tastes off on other people and I appologize for not having my eyes open when I typed that and realizing it. But either way, I'd rather Liz just be herself musically. Part of why I liked her so much in the beginning is how unlike everyone else she was. _Exile in Guyville_ didn't really sound like any other contemporary albums at the time of its release. I couldn't agree more. I first heard Polyester Bride and was hooked by that, because it was a break away from all the other music that was on the radio at the time. I don't know what it was like in the beginning because I first heard of her in 99. i'm going to go back into lurking shaking my head at my own dumbness in my last post. _________________________________________________________________ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 12:26:35 -0400 From: "Ben Oliver" Subject: Re: liz and all those producers... Kevin Smith and J-Lo. I just keep hoping he cast her becuase of OUT OF SIGHT, and not crap like angel eyes. i went to the same film school that he dropped out of, and many of my teachers are good friends of his, and apparently he has good taste, So i wouldnt worry about it. As for Liz, I have faith in her new albumn. If you look at it from this perspective, that the producers and engineers who make todays "pop hits" like avril, you must realize that they are very talented at what they do, and by producing a talent like avril, from nothing to the heights of radio and MTV stardom, puts them high on the list of new great producers, and if they are inteligent enough to know (or remember) who Liz is, and wants to work with her, they can't be all that bad. And also, producers and such dont usually have the option of who to produce, I know for a fact I would direct a sequel to feardotcom (worst movie ever made) if someone gave it to me tomorrow. As for this, I go back to lurking. - -ben - ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 23, 2002 11:31 AM Subject: liz and all those producers... > i did recognize one of the names of the um "matrix"- Lauren Christy, who had > released a kind of... tori amos-lite album back in 93ish. she had a much > better song on the soundtrack for batman & robin a few years ago, but still, > eh.... > > i dunno- i kind of equate the whole situation to kevin smith casting the > devil's concubine, j-lo, in his new film. i'm incredibly wary & not really > looking forward to it as much as i usually would be, but i keep telling > myself that hey... it's kevin and it'll be totally cool. > um. i hope. > > -rick > listening to jennifer nettles band/rewind > > *look out for me, i seem to be growing > better raise high the roof beams* > Let's Face It, Kids... rick's webpage > *this is my stolen time, my piece of the sky > my storyline... my, how it flies..* -tanya donelly ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 17:46:38 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: liz and all those producers... Ben Oliver wrote: >As for Liz, I have faith in her new albumn. If you look at it from this >perspective, that the producers and engineers who make todays "pop hits" >like avril, you must realize that they are very talented at what they do, >and by producing a talent like avril, from nothing to the heights of radio >and MTV stardom, puts them high on the list of new great producers, and if >they are inteligent enough to know (or remember) who Liz is, and wants to >work with her, they can't be all that bad. And also, producers and such >dont usually have the option of who to produce, I know for a fact I would >direct a sequel to feardotcom (worst movie ever made) if someone gave it to >me tomorrow. They may be talented at what they do, but their talent lies in making the artists they work with sound like everyone else on the radio. I just don't want some watered-down, generic version of Liz. It's bad enough that she's writing with Gary Clark, who, by all accounts, sounds like a hit doctor. Was Diane Warren not available? As for the idea that they want to work with her, well, they're hired guns. All those production teams are. They'll work with just about anyone as long as they're getting paid to do so. That's their role. I doubt they turn away people the way, say, Brad Wood would. I can't see him taking on a project his heart wasn't in, which is probably why I don't see his name on as many records as I'd like to. I don't know. I just see these people being hired for a reason and I have a feeling most of Liz's identity is going to be stripped from these tracks. If they were hired to create something that sounds like a Liz Phair record, why weren't these songs just done by Michael Penn, Pete Yorn or anyone else Liz was working with prior to this? I think these people have been hired either by Liz or the label itself to create something that sounds like them, not something that sounds like Liz. And wasn't it said a while back that the label was going to be more proactive in finding a producer for Liz, after telling her she couldn't work with Brad Wood again? I wonder how many of the decisions regarding this record have been made by Liz and how many have been made for her. To paraphrase something someone wrote in an e-mail to me off-list, I wish more people could recognize the travesty unfolding before them. Jase "And they royalty rate all the girls like you..." - Courtney Love, "Awful" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:12:08 EDT From: Johnnycass631@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V5 #188 just want to clear this up with Jase, i DO happen to be a Nirvana fan, but im hardly obsessed. i just dont think someone who wasnt in a group deserves any kind of control over their material, as long as the rest of the members are still alive. if it werent for that, id think much higher of Ms. Love, thats all.---also , i have to agree with you --the Pixies are far better. sorry if i rubbed you the wrong way. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 18:46:04 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: support-system-digest V5 #188 Johnnycass631@aol.com wrote: >just want to clear this up with Jase, > i DO happen to be a Nirvana fan, but im hardly obsessed. i just dont > think >someone who wasnt in a group deserves any kind of control over their >material, as long as the rest of the members are still alive. if it werent >for that, id think much higher of Ms. Love, thats all.---also , i have to >agree with you --the Pixies are far better. > sorry if i rubbed you the wrong way. It's OK. I've gotta admit I went overboard. I'm fairly pro-Courtney and the "24 Hours of Love" on MTV2 certainly added to that fuel. I don't want to get into the whole Nirvana issue -- doing so is opening a can of worms and has the potential to lead to an endless debate -- but I can see some of the points made by both sides. Legally, though, Courtney was Kurt's heir and inherited ownership of a lot of unreleased material as such. I do think that she should have at least some control over what's done with the material, but I also think the other members of Nirvana should have input as well. It's not as cut-and-dried as it would be with a lot of other bands, as Kurt was the primary songwriter in Nirvana. The songwriting wasn't as collaborative as it is in many other bands. At the very least, if Courtney didn't inherit ownership of the recordings themselves, she did inherit Kurt's publishing. The thing is, ultimately, it's hard to know exactly what Kurt's wishes would have been. A lot of the material in the vaults may be things that he never would have wanted to be released. It may have never been put out for a reason. He's not alive to make those decisions, though. There may be things he would have wanted to be heard that will never be, and other things never intended for release may end up on the box set. It does sound, though, like Courtney has reached an agreement with Krist and Dave, which she said both on Howard Stern on Friday and during the MTV2 broadcast. Something is supposed to be released by Christmas, either a "greatest hits" with "You Know You're Right" on it or the box set. I honestly don't think Courtney means to do harm to Kurt's legacy, even though it's not always easy to make sense of her actions. I just wish more people would cut her some slack. At the same time, though, the lawsuit went further than it probably needed to. I just hope she puts the same effort into finishing her own new record; she should concentrate on her own legacy first. Jase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 23 Sep 2002 19:07:12 -0700 From: Kenneth Lee Subject: more about the matrix Sheesh, and I was supposed to be hibernating under some Liz clippings. More about The Matrix: THE MATRIX - The Avril Lavigne album which The Matrix co-wrote and produced five tracks including "Complicated", is still on top of the Billboard charts. They are currently writing and producing Lindsey Troy for Elektra, Evan And Jaron for Columbia, A.J. McLean for Jive, Liz Phair for Capitol, AKA for J Records, and Darius for Mercury Records. They recently completed writing and producing Ben Jelen for Maverick, Ricky Martin for Columbia, Lillix for Maverick, Stacy Smith, Ana Lovelis for BMG, Anna Victoria for Arista, Nick Carter for Jive. Heather Nova for V2, Evan Christiansen for Let's Hear It Records. They also just completed a remix for Paulina Rubio for Universal and producing Off By One for LMC Records. Let the comments continue... - -Ken kenmlee@ix.netcom.com MeSmErIzInG - AnOtHeR LiZ PhAiR WeBsItE http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2471/ ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V5 #189 ************************************