From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V5 #159 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Thursday, August 22 2002 Volume 05 : Number 159 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: support-system-digest V5 #158 [Dermich@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V5 #158 [Jase ] Re: forget Liz! [Andrea Uptmor ] thanks for the tid bits [Athiena00@aol.com] Re: advance "news" [Brett Jones ] OT - name this tune... [Dan MacDonald ] Re: advance "news" [Jase ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 01:35:10 -0400 From: Dermich@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V5 #158 >who wants to bet Courtney will have a new release out before Liz >does? I dunno, but I'm about to go and audition as Bastard's bassist, dammit! I want to hear that thing get off the ground! ; ) Jase, you couldn't be further from a snob in a million years. Yer the anti-snob. Derek ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 03:26:34 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: support-system-digest V5 #158 Derek wrote: > >who wants to bet Courtney will have a new release out before Liz > >does? > >I dunno, but I'm about to go and audition as Bastard's bassist, dammit! I >want to hear that thing get off the ground! ; ) The Bastard project has pretty much been scrapped now, from what I understand. Louise Post and Courtney had a falling out very early on and Louise ended up bailing. Courtney had some other musicians come in and finish a 5-song demo with her last summer, but it looks like any eventual release will be a solo project under Courtney's own name. She did debut a few new songs at the pair of shows she did last October (one of which was opening for Jane's Addiction). These included "Life Despite God," "All the Drugs" (one of the songs written with Louise Post), "But Julian, I'm a Little Older Than You" (written with Patty Schemel and her brother Larry), "Hold on to Me" (which Courtney recently also played on a visit to an Atlanta radio station), and a new version of the Hole b-side "20 Years in the Dakota" that Courtney says is how the song should have sounded all along. According to Courtney's posts on her message board, she's been in the studio a few times over the last several months to record new material. She's said that she hopes to have a new record out next spring, but she's also hinted at the possibility of releasing a single on the Poptones label by Christmastime. She was or has been working in the studio with Patty Schemel on drums and Jerry Best on bass. Linda Perry has also been involved, both in the studio and as a co-writer. Courtney's also been trying to get Kat Bjelland in to play guitar on the new songs. So far, I'm pretty much sold on the live versions I've heard of "All the Drugs," "But Julian," and "20 Years in the Dakota." I haven't yet heard "Life Despite God" and "Hold on to Me" sounds promising, but there's something missing -- it needs a little more build or a stronger bridge. There's also some other songs Courtney has mentioned, including one on the current state of rock entitled "Mono," but none of them have been performed publically yet. I know some people were disappointed by the polish of _Celebrity Skin_, but I don't think there's any need to worry that will happen with these new songs. These songs are as far removed from _Celebrity Skin_ as that album was from _Live Through This_. Needless to say, I'm looking forward to any new release by Courtney with great anticipation and, at this point, probably more so than any new music from Liz. At least with Courtney, there's been a few signs of life over the last little while. Normally I would care a little more about the delays surrounding Liz's new album, but there's been so many great releases this year that I'm not feeling her absence as much as I might normally. Is it just me or is 2002 already the best year for new music in at least the last three or four? Also, to echo one of Derek's recent posts, I do have to wonder as well if the Liz we know and love is gone now. I feel a sense of trepidation about the new album, whenever it finally does emerge. While I do hope that Liz will pleasantly surprise us all, it seems like she's headed in a very middle-of-the-road direction. Part of what was so appealing about her music early on was how unlike everyone else she was; she was an original. If she ends up sounding interchangeable with any number of other songwriters, that same appeal will be lost. It makes me wish Steve Kisko was still on this list; I know he'd have a lot to say about this. Jase NP: Wire, "Outdoor Miner" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 10:12:46 -0500 (CDT) From: Andrea Uptmor Subject: Re: forget Liz! Quoting Andrea Uptmor : > Quoting Jase : > > > > Realizing that other fans of yours make retarded, uninformed > > generalizations about people they don't even know would do it too. > > > > People who make such generalizations also come across as "snobs," > since > > their opinions make them sound like they think they're better than > > everyone > > else. > > > > > You're right, 'snob' was not a fair word choice (nor was 'retarded.') > I am > sorry, really. I'd just really like to change the subject. Reading the > same > post over and over - "Liz Phair Does Not Have A New Album" - made me > stop and > think. We have a wonderful opportunity here, a technology that allows > us to > share ideas with dozens of other people instantaneously. We're all > artists > here, right? How 'bout we talk about our own work? Let's inspire each > other... > All we have now is "bitch, bitch, bitch..." Lizzy-poo can put out her > album > whenever she wants...I love her to pieces and hope all is well. BUT I > have too > many things I want to do with my time to stop and complain about the > lack of a > new album. > > So, once again, I'm sorry for calling all of us snobs. We're not > snobs...I > don't think I'm better than you, I don't think you're better than I. > > SO...forget Liz Phair. The reason we're complaining so much is that the > air > these days is dry and stuffy with a lack of artistic production. So > let's fix > it, eh? Shut me up if this isn't something everyone's interested in... > > ...anyhoo, if you would like me to start the dialogue (I would LOVE to > hear what > everyone else is doing with their time creatively)...right now I'm > working on a > series of 'white trash' paintings...portraits of family members in > awkward > poses, looking fat, making faces, etc...that make you cringe to look at > but > are of course (hopefully) intimately appealing...in conjunction with > some photos > I take of raw footage of the actual people projected on a monitor...the > end > result being a bunch of giant photos of the television playing footage > of these > sad people...the aesthetic is really nice in and of but it also creates > a sort > of modern-day conception of "memory;" our memories aren't really played > in an > imaginary 8mm film reel anymore, it's more like digitzed video... > > well, I'm off now... > andrea maree ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:34:10 -0400 From: Athiena00@aol.com Subject: thanks for the tid bits hello all. i am a lurker but i wanted to just put smoe two cents in. thanks for the quote by Corin from Liz Phair. The Divorce song is one of my favorites and so is Corin Tucker. She is darling and i am waiting for the Sleater-Kinney tour! i missed them when the gossip opened for them. as for courtney love. i am losing faith in that woman...can someone help me regain it. i need one of her intellegent interivews to set me straight. althought i doubt her album will ever come out. might as well just get the bootleg! ta ta athiena ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 11:59:50 +0000 From: Brett Jones Subject: Re: advance "news" Sorry for the direct mail Jase, my first response was ment for the list. Jase wrote: > At 10:27 PM 8/20/02 +0000, you wrote: > >> Maybe her idea of a music career is not yours. Maybe pushing out any >> old string of notes and calling it music is not what she wants to do. >> Maybe she's seen how so very lame most band/musician web site are, and >> decided not to play that game. Why should she worry about running a >> fan site? Wouldn't you rather she spent here time making music? > > > How does "pushing out any old string of notes and calling it music" have > anything at all to do with having a Web site? I'm not sure I see the > correlation. It has nothing to do with the web site issue, I wrote those words as a comment to your claim she has little interest in her career. Your qoute: "The fact is, Liz seems to have so little interest in her own career that she can't be bothered to learn how the music industry, post-Internet boom, operates." The music industry, post internet, is an evil thing (it was surely evil before, I just never cared) that pushes out polished shit marketed to the brain dead kids who will buy anything they see on MTV. Maybe she doesn't want to play the game that way. A band/artist has a web site for two reasons. They use it to promote the lastest album or tour, or to keep in touch with the fan base until the next album or tour. I'm sure Liz gets enough shit from people about the long periods of time between albums without having a web site that lets the world bitch and moan about it directly to her, and on her dime. Running a good site's not cheap. > Secondly, she wouldn't need to worry about running the site herself, > since neither do virtually 95% of all other musicians. They leave it up > to their management or they hire someone to design and maintain the site > for them. I know several people who are employed in that capacity. If your going to have a site as an artist, don't you think your going to be involved? Only a fool would give the hired help the freedom to build thier image online. She may not be coding the site and doing the admin on the servers, but I'd imagine she'd be running the thing. > It's a fact of life now that if you're a working musician, a Web site is > a standard part of how you promote yourself. If Liz wants to make a > living off of her art, she's going to at least do what is nowadays > considered part of the basics. You could also say that it's a fact of life for working musicians to put out a album atleast every two years, and to have a huge tour to promote it. Music is not always about the $$ side of things. > Ultimately, if she doesn't care much about her own music career, those > of us who buy her records shouldn't be expected to either. Do you really buy her work because of her commercial success???? I buy her music because it moves me a little. > Not really, but they do have some parallels: Both pursue a lot of > sidelines in addition to their day jobs (Courtney with films, Liz with > modelling, commercial work, etc.). Both are single mothers. Both last > released new albums in 1998. Both hold a similar stature with music > critics, although Courtney is far more successful commercially. And commercial success _IS_ the end all be all. I like Hole, but other than being outspoken women, I don't think you can compare them. The music is very different. > Liz moved to California, got divorced, and hasn't been heard from much > since. I didn't know she was divorced. Too bad. > I know my reaction still likely seems a bit overboard, but there's more > to it than I can say here or on the list. It's not my place to say > anything, but I've learned something about Liz that made me lose a bit > of respect for her and that is undoubtedly a factor in my opinions. This is the place to share Liz news, so share. > Jase > - -- Brett Jones brett@5foot2.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 13:26:23 -0400 From: Dan MacDonald Subject: OT - name this tune... sorry to bother the list with unrelated stuff - but there is a song that i am trying to find and i'm going in circles. i always hear it on the radio - and they never say who it is... okay - it has a great beat, it is dancey - but cool dancey... not like - "thud thud thud" techno pop-dance... it's fun, cool dance...comparable to something like Whale or something cool like that.. and the main repeated lines are (it sounds like a guy): "I thought i told ya/ i thought i told ya... you can really get-it-on - you can rea-lly GET IT ON." it almost has like... a "tropical, groovy, bouncey" kinda beat, if that makes any sense... and they repeat that a few times... this is soo dumb that i am asking this but i am so stumped and my friends look at me like i am insane, and the damn song only comes on when i am alone in the car. either the song is taunting me - or it doesn't exist and it's all in my head. once - it was on as i was picking up my friends, i raced to their house going like 80km/hour and i got there and the damn thing ended because my freind took too long letting her stupid dog back in the house.. i'm asking all the lists i'm on if they know who it is...it's such a fun song. at any rate - if anyone can help me out - drop me an email danmac@mnsi.net thanks! dan ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 23:29:08 -0400 From: Jase Subject: Re: advance "news" Brett Jones wrote: >Sorry for the direct mail Jase, my first response was ment for the list. I wish I'd have known that; my response to you was written as if it were a private response. If I'd known it would later be forwarded to the list, I wouldn't have included all that I did, especially the last part. So let me address that first, before anyone else asks: >>I know my reaction still likely seems a bit overboard, but there's more >>to it than I can say here or on the list. It's not my place to say >>anything, but I've learned something about Liz that made me lose a bit of >>respect for her and that is undoubtedly a factor in my opinions. > >This is the place to share Liz news, so share. It may be the place to share Liz news, but I don't think of it as the place to dish about Liz's personal life. I shouldn't have even wrote what I did in a response I deemed to be private, as it was speaking out of turn; to provide any further details and discuss it publically would be even more so. Ultimately, though, it's something I shouldn't even have knowledge of. It was also told to me in confidence, so it's not going to go any further. I can't help but have my opinions colored by it somewhat, though. It may be a good thing, though. While I still respect Liz's artistry, especially her first two albums, I'm not seeing her through the same rose-colored glasses as I did when I was a Superfan. She's phenomenally talented, but not someone I'd probably like much on a personal level. >Your qoute: "The fact is, Liz seems to have so little interest in her own >career that she can't be bothered to learn how the music industry, >post-Internet boom, operates." > >The music industry, post internet, is an evil thing (it was surely evil >before, I just never cared) that pushes out polished shit marketed to the >brain dead kids who will buy anything they see on MTV. Maybe she doesn't >want to play the game that way. Which, ultimately, isn't that different than how the music industry was 15 years ago, pre-Internet. Remember the pre-grunge era? Back then there may not have been Britney Spears and the Backstreet Boys; instead Debbie Gibson, Tiffany and New Kids on the Block were being shoved down everyone's throats. That too was "polished shit marketed to the brain dead kids who will buy anything they see on MTV." Anyone who has signed a multi-album deal with a six-figure advance is obviously trying to play the game at some level. Besides, comparing Liz to what's currently in rotation on MTV is a little ridiculous anyway, since her music and persona are both markedly different, not to mention the level of artistic credibility. I was thinking more of artists like Aimee Mann, Sonic Youth and Kristin Hersh -- all of whom are artists who've learned the new rules of the game and use the Internet to their advantage. They're also artists who toil away at about the same level of commercial viability as Liz does. Let's talk in those terms. Comparing Liz to some MTV diva makes no sense; comparing her to someone like PJ Harvey does. >A band/artist has a web site for two reasons. They use it to promote the >lastest album or tour, or to keep in touch with the fan base until the >next album or tour. I'm sure Liz gets enough shit from people about the >long periods of time between albums without having a web site that lets >the world bitch and moan about it directly to her, and on her dime. >Running a good site's not cheap. First of all, there are many bands who don't use their sites to promote their latest album or tour, but rather as an archival function (for bands who have broken up) or to give something back to their fans (posting rare tracks and the like). What about a band like the Loud Family, who've never particularly sold a lot of records? Sure, their site does currently promote the live album they've released, but the band broke up a couple of years ago, and before this live disc there was nothing to promote or sell. However, the site still offered rare MP3s, lyric transcriptions, photos and bios of the band members, and also the regularly updated "Ask Scott" feature, where fans could send in questions for the band's leader, Scott Miller, to answer. Until the live album came out a couple of months ago, there was no reason to keep in touch with their fanbase, since the band was essentially over. There were no tours or releases on the horizon; it's still a bit of a surprise that the live album happened. And hell, the site also serves as an archive for information on Miller's previous band, Game Theory, who have been defunct even longer. Also, many bands don't contribute much to their sites, let alone regularly post to them. People could bitch all they want, but it's not like she _has_ to read it. Besides, the only way people could bitch is if there was a message board, which many band sites don't have and she wouldn't necessary need to have either. And running a good site doesn't have to be expensive. What matters most is content. Do you think much money goes into the Guided By Voices site? Not a lot of bands have the money to spend, especially at the indie level. What they can do, though, is provide something that their fans can't get by going to any random fan-maintained site. And for the record, Ken Lee's Liz site, Mesmerizing, is pretty damn impressive, better than most artists' official sites. Liz would be lucky to have an official site as thorough and comprehensive as his. And yet, I doubt Ken sinks thousands and thousands of dollars into it. Surely Liz Phair, Inc. would have deeper pockets than his, even if for only a Web site, which doesn't seem to be a priority for her (although lizphair.com and a couple of other domains had been registered to her management group a while back; I haven't checked lately to see if they still are. If so, why are they just sitting on them, rather than doing something with them?). >>Secondly, she wouldn't need to worry about running the site herself, >>since neither do virtually 95% of all other musicians. They leave it up >>to their management or they hire someone to design and maintain the site >>for them. I know several people who are employed in that capacity. > >If your going to have a site as an artist, don't you think your going to >be involved? Only a fool would give the hired help the freedom to build >thier image online. She may not be coding the site and doing the admin on >the servers, but I'd imagine she'd be running the thing. All of the people I know who do site design and maintenance consult with the artist or band or their management as to the content of the site, but the artists or bands are pretty hands-off. It's all pretty much 'yes' or 'no' and any special requests. No one's asking Liz to learn HTML or anything that time consuming. She could knock out a decent plan for a site in her free time. Easily. >>It's a fact of life now that if you're a working musician, a Web site is >>a standard part of how you promote yourself. If Liz wants to make a >>living off of her art, she's going to at least do what is nowadays >>considered part of the basics. > >You could also say that it's a fact of life for working musicians to put >out a album atleast every two years, and to have a huge tour to promote >it. Music is not always about the $$ side of things. Did I say music is always about the financial side of things? Stop putting words in my mouth. But the fact is, music is her job and her primary source of income. If you don't sell enough records to recoup, you're not going to be able to make a living. Some amount of self-promotion is required. And let's not kid ourselves; why did Liz sign a joint deal with Matador/Atlantic (which has since followed her to Capitol)? If she was making music for strictly artistic purposes, it'd be something she could do on the side while working a day job somewhere. But the fact is, she signed to a major, not Kill Rock Stars or Alias or Merge. Liz herself has said in the past that she wants to sell a lot of records. Hell, just listening to _whitechocolatespaceegg_, you can tell she wants to. And perhaps working musicians should put out albums on a more regular basis. If this was the '60s or '70s, where artists like the Beatles, Led Zeppelin, the Stones, Joni Mitchell and Bob Dylan managed to put out records every year or thereabouts, Liz's four- or five-year gaps between albums approach just wouldn't fly. And say what you will, but many of the bands from the early-to-mid '90s indie and alternative heyday are pretty goddamn lazy, if you ask me. Five years between the first and second Elastica albums? A new Breeders album after nine years? Don't get me wrong, I love those bands, but after a certain point, get your shit together. It shouldn't take half a decade to come out with a new record. Who the hell does Liz think she is, Kate Bush or Peter Gabriel? Please. >>Ultimately, if she doesn't care much about her own music career, those of >>us who buy her records shouldn't be expected to either. > >Do you really buy her work because of her commercial success???? I buy her >music because it moves me a little. More words being put in my mouth. Do you really think I buy her work because it's commercially successful? That's ludicrous on so many levels, the first being that she doesn't sell all that many records to begin with. As it is, most of the bands I like don't even sell nearly half of what she does. If I were only interested in bands who sell a lot of records, I'd be listening to Creed instead of Sleater-Kinney and I'd be maintaining a list for Sheryl McLachlan, not Liz Phair. I was just getting at the fact that I hope she's not expecting everyone who bought her previous records to still be interested whenever she finally puts out the next one. The more casual fans have already jumped ship long ago; the four-year wait for _whitechocolatespaceegg_ lost her more fans than that album (and her touring with Lilith Fair and Alanis Morissette) brought in. The wait for this album has probably lost her more; people move on and discover new things over time. I just hope she doesn't bitch about her audience abandoning her the way other artists have. I know one of the reasons cited for Elastica's break up was how unsuccessful _The Menace_ was. It shouldn't have been such a big shock to them as it appeared to be. After five years, only the diehards remained and that's usually the smallest part of a band's audience and ultimately not enough to sustain them. I used to be a huge Liz Phair fan, as those who have been on this list since the beginning can attest to. I still consider myself a fan now, but I'm far more interested in her previous work than anything new she may eventually put out. My interest in the new record is waning. Maybe I'd have more patience if the new record wasn't taking so damn long. The initial word was that the album was going to be out in the spring of 2000. We may be lucky to have it by spring 2003. You know, since those other seven or eight tentative release dates have long since passed. Oh, but wait, there have been sitcom theme songs, some modelling, a bit part in a film, a couple of TV commercials and some backing vocals on other artists' albums to attend to. Surely those all take precedence over finishing one's own album. Unless the word that Liz isn't happy at Capitol is true. If that's the case, maybe she is holding out in the hopes she'll get dropped. At the same time, though, her audience is still shrinking, regardless. Catch-22. >And commercial success _IS_ the end all be all. I like Hole, but other >than being outspoken women, I don't think you can compare them. The music >is very different. Again, where the hell did I say commercial success is the end all be all? That comment about Courtney's music being more commercially successful was more of an aside than anything. If commercial success was everything, than why the heck have I spent the last six years maintaining a list for an artist who has yet to have a bonafide hit or even a platinum record? Sometimes, though, I wish equally deserving artists like Jen Trynin achieved the level of success Liz has rather than Liz herself. Liz seems to take the success she's had for granted; again, I hope that she doesn't expect everyone who's bought her previous albums to still be waiting around for more. But ah well. Sometimes it's interesting to watch people shoot themselves in the foot repeatedly. I think I'm leaving this discussion alone after this, though. It's far too negative and none of it really changes anything or gets a new record out any sooner. Jase NP: Sonic Youth, "Drunken Butterfly" ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V5 #159 ************************************