From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V5 #50 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Saturday, March 9 2002 Volume 05 : Number 050 Today's Subjects: ----------------- T&A (non-Liz) [Juvenilia@aol.com] Re: and such a pity [robert joyner ] sheryl shmeryl. [Stephen Griffes ] Re: it's official ["John A. Johnson" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 03:13:51 EST From: Juvenilia@aol.com Subject: T&A (non-Liz) Hey people... Regarding this Sheryl Crow topic, I have to say I agree with what Jeremy wrote. We like the music we like based on what we hear. The artists who make it have the right to show any body part they want. If that persuades you to buy more of their music, then cool. If it dissuades you, that's fine too. This is America. It's a free country - somewhere. Sometimes, Robbie http://faithlessangel.com/mttw/ NP: Lisa Germano - Fun, Fun For Everyone ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 03:50:04 -0800 (PST) From: robert joyner Subject: Re: and such a pity - --- fallout@purdue.edu wrote: > > It's a travesty that female nudity appalls you at > such a universal level. Let > Sheryl Crow have her ass hang out, she deserves it. > That her breasts are all > up in your face in no way marginalizes her previous > artistic achievements. Her > boobies do not bad songs make. > > However, would anyone have ever bought into "Hit Me > Baby One More Time" if that > prudish slut in a catholic school girl outfit had > come replete with stringy > hair, acne, and a whole lot of back fat? The same > goes of the Agulieraiera. > > The difference is that Sheryl Crow is a fully formed > functioning adult, and its > just fine with me to see her naked (and my god that > mouth), it wouldn't change > my opinion of her as a singer/songwriter. An > occasionally naked > singer/songwriter is still a singer/songwriter. > > As for Britney and Christina, they present a > constant parade of fleshy goodies > with everything they package, it's an inherent part > of their character. > They're socially acceptable pathways of enjoying > pedophilia without the jail > and such. That's why its so creepy, and exploitive, > and wrong. > > But this probably won't change your mind, and that's > a pity, because T & A is a > good thing. Maybe the best of things. > > jeremy I like T&A just as much as the next guy but I don't go for this line of thinking that you and others have forwarded that Sheryl Crow's spread is some how morally superior to similar works by britney or christina. No, what appalls me is hypocrisy. I think that Ms Crow made herself look like a jackass by making those comments in a magazine that had pics of her in it doing photos just as "sleazy" as any photo shoot those teen queens have done. Somehow the old saying "Physician heal thyself" popped into my head. If she does the photo spread sans the comments ripping others for being too sexy, I wouldn't have cared less how much of Sheryl's ass cheek was showing on the cover of Stuff. Hypocrisy just tends to rile me up like that. A 20 year old Britney half-naked on magazine cover is exploitative semi-child porn but a 40 year old Sheryl half-naked on magazine cover is the epitome of female empowerment? I'm sorry but i think that is hypocritical bullshit. It is a double standard that castigates some and gives free reign to others for basically the same actions. They are both just as half naked. > However, would anyone have ever bought into "Hit Me > Baby One More Time" if that > prudish slut in a catholic school girl outfit had > come replete with stringy > hair, acne, and a whole lot of back fat? The same > goes of the Agulieraiera. Not that i am a fan of Britney or Christina, but stripped of their sexy persona but still relatively attractive, I think they still would have become popular. Why? Debbie Gibson and Tiffany. Donnie and Marie. Shelly Fabares. These two are just filling a teen niche that has manifested itself over and over since rock and roll began. Their sexy images are just a post-Madonna Year 2000 twist on an old Phenomenon. Ask yourself the same question about Sheryl Crow. There are lots of singer songwriters that are just are talented as sheryl that will never sell as many records as Sheryl because they aren't as attractive (say, Jenifer Trynin) or aren't as willing to flash some ass for the camera (say, Aimee Mann). > That her breasts are all > up in your face in no way marginalizes her previous > artistic achievements.Her > boobies do not bad songs make. I'll give you that point, she makes bad songs on her own merit, boobie free. The boobies just make the bad songs easier to sell. Now if you'll excuse me I have to check out some good old T&A, it's bisexual stripper night on the Howard Stern show. later robert ===== - ------------------------------------------------------------ Nashville - A Liz Phair Web Site http://www.geocities.com/robnashville - ------------------------------------------------------------ Try FREE Yahoo! Mail - the world's greatest free email! http://mail.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 8 Mar 2002 17:36:46 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen Griffes Subject: sheryl shmeryl. i cant stand sheryl crow or her music. i like liz and miss listening to her because i havent since the last time i cleaned my bathroom (when i clean bathrooms i like to listen to whipsmart) and my bathroom is toe up nast because i havent cleaned in months. go buy the new P!nk record!! it's great. Steve. "you can run me over witchyour 18 wheeler but you can't keep me down!" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 08 Mar 2002 21:25:13 -0500 From: "John A. Johnson" Subject: Re: it's official On Wed, 6 Mar 2002 01:02:50 -0800, April Haitsuka wrote: >From: "April Haitsuka" >Subject: Re: it's official > > Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit. I'm no huge fan > > of Britney or Christina but I was just overwhelmed > > with the self-righteous hypocrisy of Miss Crow. Just > > mind-boggling. > >To be fair, the way I read it, she's criticizing the industry for using >these teen-age girls as soft-core porn commodities. They're young and don't >understand that they're being exploited, and it's not fair. Perhaps. But's there's also another way to look at this. Maybe what we are seeing from Sheryl Crow is a tactic that evolutionary psychologists call "derogation of the competitor." I don't see hypocrisy in her statements so much as self-deception. IMHO, there's a lot of self-deception and naivety when we congratulate or criticize people for what they do. We congratulate people for their intellectual accomplishments, their artistic creations, and for their hard work and self-discipline. We criticize people who use their good looks and sexuality to get ahead. This has never made sense to me. Our intelligence is a function of inheriting good genes and being placed in a good educational system. Ditto for artistic creativity. Self-discipline and persistence? That's a temperamental trait. As far as I am concerned, good looks and sex appeal fall into the same category as intelligence, creativity, and a good work ethic. Everyone has different gifts, and I don't blame anyone for using what they've got. But in what sense might Britney and Christina not understand that they are being exploited? Surely they understand that their audiences are sexually stimulated by their dress and behavior. Is it that they are getting tricked into acting sexier than they really want, that older people are telling them that they have to behave that way to be successful, when they don't? How can anyone here know that? Does anybody here claim to understand Britney's and Christina's sexual feelings and desires well enough to assert, with certainty, that they don't *really* want to behave the way they do? As far as I'm concerned, if that's what they really want to do, I'm not going to quarrel with how they want to make a living. Whether or not I'll listen to their music is another issue altogether. John ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V5 #50 ***********************************