From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V4 #307 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, December 4 2001 Volume 04 : Number 307 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Sting, commercials, the gays... [Dermich@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V4 #306 [Standingsixfeet1@aol.com] there are a lot of nobody [Steve Rhodes ] [none] [Easter ] Re: Sting, commercials, the gays... ["YOU- KNOW-WHO" ] "Down" at Don Hills ["Daaaaan Theman" ] Re: The Whole Icon Thing and the Gap [carrma@WellsFargo.COM] Re: The Whole Icon Thing and the Gap ["Jeff Doak" ] Re: The Whole Icon Thing and the Gap [AWeiss4338@aol.com] Re: The Whole Icon Thing and the Gap ["schta - schy" ] it's that time again! [Stephen Griffes ] Liz in RS ["DarkSide oftheMoon" ] Re: chick rock=gay men? NO ["Michael Worrell" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 01:38:43 EST From: Dermich@aol.com Subject: Sting, commercials, the gays... Michael wrote: >Nobody ever boots Sting for writing a song for and >appearing in a Jaguar commercial Actually, that's really, really not true. I follow Bowie very closely, and the man gets LOTS of shit from some of his fans for selling his tunes for commercials, as do the Stones and Iggy. Atom and His Package sings a song called "Sting Can't Possibly Be the Same Guy Who Was in The Police." Heh. I, personally, have nothing against it. It's called "show business," not "art sharing," and more power to Liz for doing what she wants to do. But still, you're dead wrong if you don't think all those folks you named don't get muchly dinged for selling their tunes, dude. Too bad the "Poofter pop" thread bugs you so much, M. Consider yourself invited here to Kansas City to hang out some time. I might be gay, but I'm probably the furthest thing from a poofter you've ever met. And my similarly-minded gay friends pick up a lot more guys at crappy rock bars than they do at gay discos. Gays...they don't like JUST Madonna any more. All of us should really remember what I consider to be the #1 reason Liz has appeal to a lot of the boys'-club-minded folks she was taunting with her first record: For a straight guy, it is REALLY fucking sexy to hear a girl talking dirty and authoritatively like that. She's sexy and a little crude, without just being out-and-out nasty like L7, for example. Meaning all of this in good fun, Derek ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 05:26:32 EST From: Standingsixfeet1@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V4 #306 >>Those of you fervently clutching little rainbow flags in sweaty palms with a fevered brow and hoping like kids at Christmas to find _something_ to validate your existence from Liz Phair are probably on a wild goose chase. Trusting the bio ECP wrote for Matador is actually kind of funny; did she admit to making the whole thing up in 1994 or 1995?<< I'm sorry, I was just trying to start a discussion . . . by saying that Liz may be a gay icon, I wasn't in anyway saying that she herself is gay, or that you have to be gay to like her. Just that her music and her persona is something that gays really identify with. I never said I was surprised that men don't identify with Flower, but that was the point. I was just trying to figure out why certain people like her. One can say . . . wow, this artist is great, but there are a lot of artists I think are better than Liz, so why do I always find myself listening to her. Anyway, I'm sorry if I offended you. It wasn't intentional. Cheers, james ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 03:03:26 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Rhodes Subject: there are a lot of nobody >Nobody ever boots Sting... There was criticism of sting and the stones. While rock in ads isn't criticized as much as it used to be because it is so common, criticism hasn't stopped. the reality that ads do help indie artists pay the bills was the focus of a peice not too long ago in the New York Times. But it would be better if there could be ways for them to make enough money from their music without selling to ads. and particularly for a company as bad as the gap which does have bad labor practicies and the CEO Don Fisher is a major supporter of conservative causes most of the musicians in the ads would disagree with. For more info see http://www.gapsucks.org And read the Fisher King by my former co-worker Dan Zoll http://www.sfbg.com/News/32/45/Features/fisher.html There also was Neil Young's song critical of music being used in ads and I just picked up Professors, Politics and Pop by Jon Wiener which has an article from 1987 on Michael Jackson selling "Revolution" to Nike. He mentions that Chrissie Hynde had a song on the Pretenders Get Close album attacking Jackson and others asking, "How much did you get for your soul?" Steve Rhodes http://www.well.com/~srhodes ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 04:43:56 -0800 (PST) From: Easter Subject: [none] Why do I find it strange how I had a hard weekend, come to my computer, hoping that the list will cheer me up a little and all it was was about gay rockstars or some sort? Not one mention about George Harrison passing away, one of the greatest rockstars around? Think I'll go back to lurking for ages. Katie ();) ===== ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Imagine all the people living life in peace." - John Lennon ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Buy the perfect holiday gifts at Yahoo! Shopping. http://shopping.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 21:56:01 +0800 From: "YOU- KNOW-WHO" Subject: Re: Sting, commercials, the gays... Derek wrote: "Gays...they don't like JUST Madonna any more." HAHAHAHAH! That is the funniest/coolest/truest thing I've heard in this thread! It's not necessarily accurate in my case but true nonetheless. I agree that Liz comes off as very sexy because of her lyrically sexual forthrightness. I love watching Liz hawk Gap clothing.... just being able to see her dance around awkwardly while twirling a wool toboggan scarf formerly $20.00 now only $16.99 a few times a night while watching reruns of "The Simpsons" and "Friends" is bliss. trent - -- "I really really love Christ, but I'm not a Christian." -Tori Amos _______________________________________________ Sign-up for your own FREE Personalized E-mail at Mail.com 1 cent a minute calls anywhere in the U.S.! http://www.getpennytalk.com/cgi-bin/adforward.cgi?p_key=RG9853KJ&url=http://www.getpennytalk.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 12:11:57 -0500 From: "Daaaaan Theman" Subject: "Down" at Don Hills Ok, so Satuirday night I go to this club in Manhattan called Don Hills. It's this very chic place right now that a lot of celebrities go to and blah, blah, blah. Anyway, the second I walk in the door (around 12:15 AM maybe?) I look at the TV, and what is on but the "Down" video!!! I couldn't believe it. This is one of the coolest parties in all of Manhattan, and Liz Phair was on every TV. When the credits for the song came up it said "Liz Phair, Down, Unreleased Demo". Has this video been officially released? That's all. - -Dan _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 12:28:07 -0700 From: carrma@WellsFargo.COM Subject: Re: The Whole Icon Thing and the Gap > Exactly how in the hell does ECP appearing in a commercial cheapen her art > and lessen her integrity as an artist? By causing an association of the artist or the music to a corporation or a product. Depending on how well the ad is designed and extensive the campaign is, it can be next to impossible to separate the artist from the product they are being used to push. For example, I can't hear "I Heard it Through the Grape Vine" without raisins dancing through my head... how many years has it been now? I feel that consumer culture has penetrated so many aspects of our lives--everything is a billboard these days (the fruit sticker on the orange I ate the other day was advertising the release of "The Grinch" on dvd). I view music as a refuge from this crap but when music I like becomes part of the ad, it is one less thing that isn't trying to sell you something. > This whole anti-Gap animosity is simply beyond me. Between them and Old Navy, there have been > some decent commercials in the last few years. What's the matter? Do they use five-year old > kids in their factories which run 24/7 belching toxic smoke into the atmosphere or something? I think that's why people protest in front of them but that's not really my beef... I just don't like commercials! > Nobody ever boots Sting for writing a song for and appearing in a Jaguar > commercial; nobody's booting M. Ritchie for selling "Ray of Light" or the > Rolling Stones for selling "Start Me Up" to Microsoft (!@#$%), but yet, > people seem ready to cannibalize Liz Phair in an instant. I didn't mean to single out Liz--I didn't mention other performers because I didn't think it was relevant. I'm not saying that Liz should be made to wear a scarlet A (for advertiser!) and be shunned from "the scene" and that she has forever tainted her name and invalidated her music. I was just trying to convey that I wish she'd tour or something to make her money rather than by selling her image to the gap. > Darn; a thousand pardons, please. I'm in such a good mood, I'll give you a thousand and one! :D Take it easy, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 14:42:46 -0500 From: "Jeff Doak" Subject: Re: The Whole Icon Thing and the Gap First. I love Liz! She's fantastic. I can't get enough of her. Where's that new freakin' album? Second. Thank you Michael Worrell for saying the things I've been thinking. Third. It makes me sick, and disappointed, that people look for some kind of gay connection to buy an album. Who cares? Although a lot of you think it's OK to be gay, I think it's not, but it doesn't influence my decision to buy a record. If the music is good, then it's good and it's worth buying. I don't buy album just because I think the singer is hot. I think Jennifer Lopez is hot, and an OK actress, but would never spend a dime on that crap she calls music. So I don't understand why anyone would buy a record just because a member is gay, or has a gay connection. What if the music sucks? Personally, I prefer when an artist keeps their mouth shut about their sexual orientation, religion (or lack thereof), politics, or personal "problems". People these days seem to have a problem with being theirselves, and artists have to much influence over people. Spouting off generates interest without letting the music stand on it's own. Not to mention the stupid trends that are created. I'm a straight male, and I think Liz's music is phenomenal - all of it. That's why she's not just someone I like, but someone I proudly list with the rest of my favorite artists: Metallica, Kiss, Nazareth, Queensryche, Iron Maiden, Primus, Pearl Jam, Jimmy Buffett, Reel Big Fish. If it weren't for her music and the tales she tells, I wouldn't buy her records. It doesn't matter what she looks like, or what her cause is. Jeff Doak jalandoak@hotmail.com Its-official Music http://www.its-official.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 15:20:52 EST From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: The Whole Icon Thing and the Gap In a message dated 12/3/01 2:43:56 PM Eastern Standard Time, jalandoak@hotmail.com writes: > Although a lot of you think it's OK > to be gay, I think it's not, but it doesn't influence my decision to buy a > record. If the music is good, then it's good and it's worth buying. I > don't buy album just because I think the singer is hot. I think Jennifer > Lopez is hot, and an OK actress, but would never spend a dime on that crap > she calls music. So I don't understand why anyone would buy a record just > because a member is gay, or has a gay connection. What if the music sucks? > > Personally, I prefer when an artist keeps their mouth shut about their > sexual orientation, religion (or lack thereof), politics, or personal > "problems". People these days seem to have a problem with being > theirselves, and artists have to much influence over people. Spouting off > generates interest without letting the music stand on it's own. Not to > mention the stupid trends that are created. > > I agree that I wouldn't buy an album just because someone is gay, I am, and I can't stand, say, Melissa Ethridge. However I don't agree with the rest of this. This is a great topic and it's sad that every homophobe on this list have now opened their mouths and said hateful things. Yes you have a right to say them, and I have the right to protest homophobic posts. I wish everyone who is gay or lesbian in rock would come out, what a breath of fresh air that would be. But how would you deal with it if you didn't like gay people and then your favorite singer came out. How would you feel then. This is not meant to be a flame, but this is the second homophobic post I've seen on this topic and they make me sick. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 15:37:41 -0500 From: "schta - schy" Subject: Re: The Whole Icon Thing and the Gap personally, I like to listen to music that I identify with. Liz is [or at least _was_, with exile] overtly sexual and clever. the Donnas, AC/DC and Redman & Method Man like to party. Sleater-Kinney is political and feminist. I identify with all of that. I also listen to The Moves and Sleater-Kinney because they're queer, sure, but mostly because I like their music. I could name a hundred bands, like the Third Sex, Rufus Wainwright, and Bratmobile, that I've listened to but never really became a fan of. The gay press tends to hail all gay artists as the next Big Thing, but then again, they thought that Some Of My Best Friends was a good idea, too. Just because something is queer doesnt mean that I'll like it. Personally, I agree with you, Jeff. If the music is good, its good and worth buying. And yes, J. Lo is a hottie, isn't she? I think, however, that you make the mistake of assuming that all queer music listeners only listen to the music because its by gays. Or that we buy it because the singer is hot. I'd really like to think that we homos have more discriminating tastes than that. I think that Dan, or whoever brought the point up, was just talking about the fact that there are no gay men in music that he identifies with. and even if he's not, that's a big thing for me...are there any lesbian singers out there, besides the moves, who are under 40 and DON'T sing folk songs? if so, please clue me in. oh yes, back to my point...I think that the discussion is both good, with the absence of LizNews, and relevant, as Ms. Phair is [whether she wants to be or not] a gay icon and many of us on the list are gay. so yes. don't be so defensive of heterosexual-kind, please. just relax and take it all with a grain of sand. xoxox : stace >From: "Jeff Doak" >To: support-system@smoe.org >Subject: Re: The Whole Icon Thing and the Gap >Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 14:42:46 -0500 > >Third. >It makes me sick, and disappointed, that people look for some kind of gay >connection to buy an album. Who cares? Although a lot of you think it's >OK >to be gay, I think it's not, but it doesn't influence my decision to buy a >record. If the music is good, then it's good and it's worth buying. I >don't buy album just because I think the singer is hot. I think Jennifer >Lopez is hot, and an OK actress, but would never spend a dime on that crap >she calls music. So I don't understand why anyone would buy a record just >because a member is gay, or has a gay connection. What if the music sucks? > >Personally, I prefer when an artist keeps their mouth shut about their >sexual orientation, religion (or lack thereof), politics, or personal >"problems". People these days seem to have a problem with being >theirselves, and artists have to much influence over people. Spouting off >generates interest without letting the music stand on it's own. Not to >mention the stupid trends that are created. > >I'm a straight male, and I think Liz's music is phenomenal - all of it. >That's why she's not just someone I like, but someone I proudly list with >the rest of my favorite artists: Metallica, Kiss, Nazareth, Queensryche, >Iron Maiden, Primus, Pearl Jam, Jimmy Buffett, Reel Big Fish. If it >weren't >for her music and the tales she tells, I wouldn't buy her records. It >doesn't matter what she looks like, or what her cause is. > > >Jeff Doak >jalandoak@hotmail.com >Its-official Music >http://www.its-official.com _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 20:04:53 -0500 From: "DarkSide oftheMoon" Subject: last comment jeremy.... i just have to laugh... 'That said, I think you're lying when you say people have sent you emails thanking you for that article. It was fucking tripe.' *sigh* now he calls me a liar.... for those of you who did like the article and sent me e-mails off list, thanks again. if you wish to reveal yourself to jeremy privately, thats up to you. i'm not wasting my time with this thread anymore... DarkSide oftheMoon "I didn't think it was possible, but this both sucks and blows." Bart Simpson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 21:35:50 -0500 (EST) From: Stephen Griffes Subject: it's that time again! Support-system tradition! Favorite albums of the year. let's bring em on! Steve. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Dec 2001 22:00:17 -0500 From: "DarkSide oftheMoon" Subject: Liz in RS A very small item/comment about Liz in Rolling Stone: http://www.rollingstone.com/news/newsarticle.asp?nid=14978&cf2=1 DarkSide oftheMoon "I didn't think it was possible, but this both sucks and blows." Bart Simpson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Dec 2001 23:43:55 -0500 From: "Michael Worrell" Subject: Re: chick rock=gay men? NO Previously, on support-system-digest V4 #306, wrote: >but then again this doesnt apply to everyone- im just simply open-minded to >music (rock music, that is). i simply dont view gender as a boundary... it >shouldnt be seen as one. i just really admire certain artists that are able >to create great music. im straight, and some of my favorite artists are: liz, >tori, HOLE, veruca salt, juliana, blake babies... heck, i even thought >madonna's "ray of light" was an amazing record! does this mean im gay? well, >i guess it does to incredibly naive people, but it really shouldnt, seeing as >im not. No, you're not "open-minded", whatever that claptrap and ridiculous phrase is supposed to mean nowadays. It simply means that you're not going to be constrained by a vocal minority's attempts to ensnare artists for their own movement. "Gender", whatever the hell that means, is not a boundary. It's a defining characteristic, that we should be thankful for. Otherwise, how would you ever find a girlfriend, or girls find a boyfriend? This whole controversy got me to reading back issues of the digest, and I found a discussion where something much the same happened, HP. Some dude, who may or may not be here nowadays was convinced I played for the other team because the vast majority of my CD collection was made up of the opposite sex. Go figure. And I'm sitting here laughing about that as I'm looking at an enticingly beautiful picture of Amber Valletta, with a 'come-hither' look that could make you go weak in the knees were it real, but alas...it's all part of the Windows 98 Active Desktop. Yeah, by some people's math, you can't like certain artists without automatically being "one of us", or something. I suppose the rebuttal to that is some claptrap about repressed desires, but that's all desperation on their part. I've got to admit, deeming them "incredibly naive" is a new stroke; thanks for the insight. Definitely no rainbow flags in this man's hand. But I'd still rather watch Cate Blanchett's "Elizabeth" and read Margaret Thatcher than go hang out at a Slipknot concert. Gee, by some people's math, that qualifies me for the GLAAD board of directors. Methinks the stereotypes are running pink at the moment. Could it be that those people want to imagine themselves as hip, with-it, cool, and better than other people? Perhaps so, and they get around to defining certain artists as only accessible to "them", and that nobody would like those artists unless they were one of "them"? Perhaps so, especially when you take into consideration the oft-repeated agenda that everyone on the planet is secretly "them", if only they would not deny their "true" desires. Yeah, right. That and ninety-nine cents buys a gallon of 87 octane gasoline in some States. Michael "You think you know what I'm doing, so obviously you don't."---Aeon Flux ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V4 #307 ************************************