From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V4 #289 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Saturday, November 10 2001 Volume 04 : Number 289 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: support-system-digest V4 #288 [Dermich@aol.com] Only Son / Questions... ["Michael Honaker" ] Only Son and more... ["Sandman" ] beauty is in the ear of the beholder ["Megan Kelly McCarthy" ] Only Son? [drpeak@juno.com] self-absorbed mother? [RocketBoyD@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V4 #288 ["sea. o;brien" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 01:50:26 EST From: Dermich@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V4 #288 Great point. But actually, I'd say there are lots of acts who go the other direction, and those tend, in my opinion, to be the ones who are deeper and more, erm, well, REAL. Bowie was amazing early on, but sorry, the depth of Scary Monsters and 1.Outside dwarf even Ziggy and Low. And Trent Reznor. And PJ Harvey. And like you mention, S-K. Let's hope Liz falls into this category. Best, Derek > Bob Mould may never be any better than "The Act We Act" off of Sugar's > "Copper > Blue" album from 1992 (or "Reoccurring Dreams" off of Husker Du's "Zen > Arcade" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 02:19:38 -0500 From: "Michael Honaker" Subject: Only Son / Questions... Gerry wrote: >Ask the same question I asked the >list in August 1998: Am I the only person >here who likes "Only Son"? Or has it >grown on anybody three years later...? I'm sure there are people who do like it. Lyrically it's a good song, but I honestly don't care for it much. I listened to it again before I wrote this, just to be totally sure... and I still can't pin point exactly what it is that I dislike about it... I do think it has something to do with the "goodbye, so long, I'm gone..." To me that just sounds like she kind of 'threw it in there', so to speak. But thats just my opinion. I think most people like it. It's just like a lot of people dislike Victoria Williams because of her voice sounding "too childish", but I like her. It's only a difference of opinion. Also, my view on the Egg's strong points: Big Tall Man, Uncle Alvarez, What Makes You Happy, Go On Ahead, Headache, Shitloads Of Money and Johnny Feelgood (although I'm still wondering who the hell this Johnny asshole is and why he's constantly in and out of her life...it's been bugging me since Guyville....by chance is this the same person as Angry Johnny or Johnny Traunt????....Maybe Poe really IS Liz...ok, bad joke and bad idea.) Don't get me wrong though - I still listen to the Egg and I do like it. Lately though, it seems as though the yolk has dried up a bit. subject change: Ok, we know "Down" will be on the new album, but has anyone heard anything about other songs that might be on there? Like maybe stuff brought from the WCSE Sessions, like "Tell Me You Like Me" or anything? I figure "Hello, Sailor" (Don't correct me there - I refuse to think of it as 'Hello, Stranger' just yet - 'cause I don't want to believe she would change it), and the chirpy "Love Hate Transmission" will be on there. I'm just curious to see what might surface on the album about Jim. Probably no more than what came out on the Egg. Just wondering. I'll be upset if this album ends up being like 12 tracks. With as long as we've had to wait we need like a double album of all new material. And damnit, I wanna see Six Dick Pimp and Wild Thing on an album already... and not a soundtrack, and without lyrical changes. I tell ya, someone should have said back in 99, "hey, Liz, we figure Capitol will fuck you some how, so why not release Girly Sound on two discs and help ease the ten years that its gonna take for the new record?" To which she would have either replied "Great idea! Here's my copies!" or "Suck my dick." Oh well. Just rambling.... - -michael ================================== "I'm not a doctor, but I do look like one." ================================== http://suprnova.lunamorena.net ================================== ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 03:09:41 -0600 From: "Sandman" Subject: Only Son and more... Luckily, you aren't the only one who likes "Only Son". It is a haunting and poignent track and one of my favorites on WCSE... I also like "Baby Got Going", and I seem to be in the minority there, too... As for the 'first fuck' theory, you and Pete Thownsend have a great point there... Matthew Sweet's "Girlfriend" album is a masterpiece by anyone's standards... that being said, I don't think it is as good artistically as "Altered States", but "Girlfriend" will always be the Matthew Sweet CD in my car... Same for Indigo Girls... "Rites of Passage" is their best album imho, but there's something about their self-titled release that will always mean more to me... Same for U2, the Beatles, Lush, etc, etc... This could go on and on... good topic, chris... NP: Push Stars: Wild Irish Rose ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2001 07:37:54 -0500 From: "Megan Kelly McCarthy" Subject: beauty is in the ear of the beholder Lurker girl here, throwing in my $.02 because, well, I'm obscenely bored and the E! True Hollywood Story is a repeat right now. So sad. Anyway, I just attended a lecture at the Honolulu Academy of Art on "The Authority of the Beholder" in terms of Fine Art and how Fine Art has (should?) been viewed. Pretty interesting. It's boiled down to two major schools of critics: 1) Historical viewers--those who want to bring the artwork back to its place of origin, either physically (i.e., "Ancient Japanese artwork can only be understood properly while wearing a kimono and viewing it in Tokyo") or metaphorically, (i.e., "In order to comprehend and fully appreciate Picasso's 'Guernica', the viewer must be an expert on the Spanish Civil War.") 2) Emotional viewers--those who react viscerally to a piece of art and interperate (or misinterperate) the work based upon the viewer's own set of distinct and personalized perceptions. Artist's intent be dammed. (i.e., while Mr. Yuck might be intended as a warning to keep children away from poison, I think he's cute and hence will decorate my room with bright green stickers.) [Side note--the lecturer kept referring to this as a type of tradition. I transcribed his words in my notes as "Bosark tradition" until halfway through, when I realized he was probably saying "Beaux Arts tradition" Why don't lecurers warn you when they break out the French?] How this all related to Liz? Well, lets look at it in terms of the current debate being thrashed out in my inbox, (EIG vs. WS vs. WCSE vs. Penn, Brion & the producer behind door #3) If you view the albums as a Historical viewer..er, listener... then you really need to do every thing you can to figure out Liz's "original intent"--only then can you rank them, and the rank should really be determined by how well she expressed her original intent, blah blah blah, ad infinitum. As an emotional listener, you are free to interperate her songs in whichever manner you choose, even if you are totally missing her point. "Help Me Mary" could be a prayer, or she's addressing another personality, or being sarcastic, whichever you would like to believe. Your reaction will be based upon your own personal ideosynchracies--I'm sure men have a vastly different reaction to "flower" than women do. And every experience you've ever had is taken into subliminal consideration when listening to Liz's work. Honestly, all of this is probably bullshit, but I'm tired of seeing the same old debates so I thought I would try and be proactive and inject some new stuff to the list. I had a bunch of more intelligent stuff to say, but the makers mark bottle is a lot less full than it was when I started writing this and spelling is now become a problem. Moral of the story--if we're not going to hear anything soon about Liz and new music let's put aside the standard 'my favorite album/song/liz moment RULES and all others must be subjected to it's glory' thread and discuss another topic. Maybe without our apprehensive gaze she'll come out with something soon. (the watched pot never boils theory) sample topics: contemporary adult radio is neither contemporary nor adult radio... christian music is neither christian nor music... is it possible to celebrate Michael Bolton's entire catalogue? [insert celebrity name] is a no-talent ass-clown... anthrax (the band) should change their name to [insert suggestion]... liz can kick [insert celebrity's name]'s ass... the first N*Sync-er to need food stamps will be [insert name here]... the liz song I most identify with is [insert name] and this is why... fred durst's career will be over in [insert number] hours... any other suggestions? thanks for letting me ramble. Megan ps, to whomever first mentioned Pete Yorn on the list--THANK YOU! pps, Jase, thank you for being our wonderful support-system moderator. Your work on this list is much appreciated. You rock. _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 10:31:37 -0800 From: "Dana Polachowski" Subject: "only son" >Am I > the only person here who likes "Only Son"? Or has it grown on anybody three > years later...? > no, you're not the only one; i've always liked that song. it's a pretty brutal admission, even for a song. and that's why i was so curious when it came out if it indeed was about her own brother. he musta pulled some nasty shit if she'd go ahead and use that as material, especially sayin' stuff like that. she never struck me as the "revenge-through-song" type.... until this disk. i mean, paraphrasing, "i knew i'd be a problem and i know i suck, so that's why i'm leaving.... 'i'm losing my soul.'" yikes. plus, i really dig that three-chord guitar figure during the chorus. maybe people hate it 'cause it sorta "drags," beatwise (????). and that chorus "sounds" strong, but then he's sayin' "yeah, ok, so now i'm leaving--with my tail between my legs." wow. anyways, ok, here's how i know this disk isn't all that (it's my usual litmus test): so many of these songs, i hear 'em and go: "you know, *i* coulda done better with that.... like, put in some fuzz here, change the drum there, drop that back a little bit....." does anyone else do this??? (FYI, if you do, you prolly have a ton of virgo in your chart ) i can't help it!! if i can think of how it could be better *right away*.... well, then i sit there and.... make a mental list. that said, i think "headache" is great, poppy keyboard riff and all. that just makes it funnier, in fact. and i dig the breathing.... as for her guitar playing, someone just said a couple digests ago, it's "simple and complex"; no kidding!!! i brought "juvenilia" in for my guitar teacher to figure out for me and he hears the song and goes "oh, that's so easy!" and then, sure enough, he can't figure it out!! he goes, "hmmm, well, it *sounds* easy...." of course, i'm thinking, to myself, "i cannot believe i'm paying you...." first (and only) daughter, dp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 13:56:45 -0500 From: drpeak@juno.com Subject: Only Son? Re Gary's post: I'll ask the same question I asked the list in August 1998: Am I the only person here who likes "Only Son"? Or has it grown on anybody three years later...? Yeah, I LOVE that song! Great guitar playing and a tight band. It's one of my faves on the WCSE CD. But Exile is still my fave LIz album, although I heard Whip-Smart first. D.R. ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/web/. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 16:27:51 EST From: RocketBoyD@aol.com Subject: self-absorbed mother? OK now................Since I was one of the people who set off Steve's rant with my "annoying" post..........let me clarify things here. I am not saying WSCE is as good as EIG. EIG is her BEST album on all levels.....It's a clasic album, actually it's beyond classic, it's f*#$ing brilliant. That album ranks up at the top of the list of the best albums with Bob Dylan, the Beatles, etc....... And I think Liz wouldn't disagree with you on that.....She knows how brilliant it is and how her future work will not live up to it.......How many artists could? So give her a break! << instead, she's busy being a mom and a model and whatever else suits her fancy when she wakes up in the morning. which, of course, is fine; people should do what they want with their lives. but i don't expect to feel anything in my gut when another record comes out, and if EIG swept you away as much as it did me, you shouldn't either. it was fun, but it most obviously over. >> And as for the quote I posted above.........well.......it disgusts me. I know fans can be fevervishly attached to eras of an artist's work, etc, etc........BUT to talk about Liz as a now defunct artist who is incapable of producing interesting work and instead would rather be a self-asborbed mother who doesn't give a shit about anything!!! Well, I think you're the one with the problem. Artists need time off......they're human like everyone else. I'm sure Liz has had it rough these past couple of years with her divorce, moving, and raising a child. I can totally sympathize with her need to distract herself and make herself feel attractive.....she's probably feeling a lot of pain (hence the lyrics of "down"). She DOES NOT need to be sitting in her room writing EIG sounding, angry songs on a four track every second of her free time so she can put another album out to entertain her fans so they won't get bored!! That's why they're are other artists! Listen to someone else if you're bored. Liz obviously needs time to come up with good material (maybe more time than some artists)......but I think she'd rather take the time to put out quality work than do a rush job and regret it later, (Yes, I'm talking about the 1996 studio recordings that might have ended up as "RocketGirl"......just the thought makes me want to vomit) So........if you don't like the fact that she moved out to L.A., or if you don't like the fact that she modeled for a clothing line, or if you don't like the fact that she starred in a movie, or if you don't like the fact that she's not the "Liz Phair" of EIG, or if you thought WSCE was a crappy album,...................well.......then why should you give a shit about her next album........or for posting on this list??? I'm sure Liz would ask you the same question........ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2001 22:36:10 -0330 From: "sea. o;brien" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V4 #288 >... just out of > curiosity, I'll ask the same question I asked the list in August 1998: Am I > the only person here who likes "Only Son"? Or has it grown on anybody three > years later...? > > Gerry > You are not alone. I've always loved it. I like the way the song 'breathes'. Maybe it's just a bit slow-paced for the others - -Sean (np: Only Son) ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V4 #289 ************************************