From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V4 #288 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Friday, November 9 2001 Volume 04 : Number 288 Today's Subjects: ----------------- more on the topic at hand [EliasSptsBureau@aol.com] "What Makes You Happy" [Dermich@aol.com] soapbox pt 2. ["DarkSide oftheMoon" ] Re: Wow. Ouch. [robert joyner ] Re: Various ["Michael Worrell" ] Liz producers [Andy Peters ] RE: Meredith Robbins ["Brian P. Falk" ] old-old liz photo [Catherine Lewis ] cardigans on crack/Lisa Loeb Experience [Dan MacDonald ] Thanks Jaimee! [NegSplitz@aol.com] o ye of little faith ["Chris DeLisle" ] Re Gary Clark and Liz - Only Son ["Gerry Lipnowski" but Liz was the one who insisted on the >electronica version. (Derek?) Yeah, that is what Brad told me personally. As for myself, I like both versions pretty much equally. For the record, Brad Wood is my #2 favorite producer ever (after Tony Visconti). >"why are there so many penis enlargement ads on this >BBS?" I'm gonna let that dog lie... Derek ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 03:05:30 -0500 From: "DarkSide oftheMoon" Subject: soapbox pt 2. Okay...the issue here is not about EIG. I agree with Steve on a number of points. I think just about all of us agree that EIG is the standard that we hold Liz to and the she probably won't ever reach that level again due to the obvious facts. But I cannot agree that WCSE sucks. I can't. After a looong not listening to Liz period , a few months ago I put WCSE on and listened to it uninterrupted with headphones on. And I had forgotten just how good an album it is. Yes it is different. Yes it has keyboards. Yes it is it more produced. Yes there are throwaway tracks and yes I think some of the songs on the demos would have been better included and would have made WCSE a more agreeable album. I agree that is does lack continuity however. I think most people listen to the majority of music through floor speakers as opposed to headphones. But you know what - it does make a difference. There is a lot on WCSE that is missed when just listening through speakers - maybe not enough to sway the non-WCSE believers but I wanted to make the point that perception is crucial. I'm sure all of us have had music that when we first listened didn't grab us, but years later when listened to again you say to yourself 'why haven't i been playing this all along?' So maybe the time in your life is not such that you appreciate WCSE for what it is. Time will tell. Another thing i can't agree to (and i really can't believe that some of you are believing this) is that Liz has sold out or that her career somehow is over. Oh ye of little faith. Believe in her ability. C'mon people, she hasn't died for god's sake. Her music has changed. What do you expect from her? You want it to be the same feel-wise as EIG but you want her to move forward and challenge new ideas. You want her to be popular and recognized but don't want her to be corporate and 'sell-out'. You want her to make a 2002 record that reflects her mood and frame of mind in the 1990's. Maybe it is possible. A good example of that would be an artist like...Neil Young comes to mind - a chameleon who constantly changes yet somehow remains the same. I love Neil but somehow when an artist doesn't change it becomes boring after awhile. (Once again AC/DC comes to mind) And there are times when an artist does change that they becomes boring (think Metallica). But I can't elevate Liz into the same class as Neil for a number of reasons too many to mention here. Her new record is going to be a different record than WCSE but I think that it is going to be probably closer in comparison to WCSE than WS or EIG. DarkSide oftheMoon "I didn't think it was possible, but this both sucks and blows." Bart Simpson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 00:25:47 -0800 (PST) From: robert joyner Subject: Re: Wow. Ouch. Steve sorry if I was overly harsh in discussing your post but i'll stand behind the points I made. I totally respect your opinion even if I don't necessarily agree with it. Knowing how long you have been on the list let's me know that the views you have are based on a sound knowledge of Liz and her history. Judging from other posts I can see yours position has its supporters. As I have stated I think that WCSE is no where near a masterpiece but it also doesn't suck and isn't worthy of being totally marginalized. - --- steve kisko wrote: > That's your opinion; I would've preferred the "1997 > Running Order" version > of WCSE that Ken Lee released. Brad Wood even > preferred the original rock > version of "What Makes You Happy" but Liz was the > one who insisted on the > electronica version. (Derek?) I guess it goes back to one's own personal taste. My own personal favorite version of "Happy" is either from the WCSE demos or from a prerelease copy of WCSE I had. This version had a slow acoustic intro before launching into the full Electronica regalia. It was a nice juxtaposition of styles that was reminiscent of the soft-heavy-soft-heavy structure that Nirvana did so well (I described it at the time as Carly Simon meets William Orbit-Madonna's Ray of Light). Tom Lord-Alge almost ruined that song with his sped-up intro. The straight guitar rock versions of "Happy" just never really reach a critical mass for me when listening. I just don't get that oomph out of them. > I don't like bad songs, either, but favoring > production values over words & > music seems slightly superficial. You were the one that said too many people on the list place an emphasis on Liz's words ie songwriting. that's not really an arguement I made in my post. but since we are on the topic, I think there are definite differences bewtween the songwriting styles from Guyville (more elipitical and metaphorical, which you seem to prefer more) and The Egg (more straightfoward storytelling) but each style is not without its charms. I don't think the songwriting on The egg sucks. Go On Ahead, Perfect world, Uncle Alvarez and Happy have some pretty decent lyrics in my book. What I meant was, she's definitely reached > a point where she's > willing to compromise her artistic integrity to the > point where longtime > fans are losing interest and/or respect. I don't > think there was any looking > back after she cashed that $400,000 advance check > from Atlantic in the > mid-90s. It's clear where the priorities are now, > and that's why I'm 100% > skeptical about the next album. I'd like to continue > to be a fan of Liz's, > but she's making it really difficult. Sorry but that is the nature of capitalism, selling personal integrity for large sums of money (I think that's the cynic in me coming out). As for losing respect for an artist, this is just my opinion but I don't hold up Musicians as paragons of virtue or defacto role models for staying true to the game. I just listen to the music and it is either good or bad. When I'm listening to whitechocolatespaceegg at its most essential level i don't think of exile in guyville, whipsmart, gary gersh, danny goldberg, capitol, atlantic, $400,000 advances, scott litt, scott Mcghee, me and bobby Mcghee, Fatty Mcghee or Fat Albert, brad wood, luke wood, or balsa wood, leroy bach, casey rice, donna rice or fried rice (sorry for the denis leary rant). I think, all the elements considered (songwriting, voice, whatever kind of instrumentation), was that a good song or not? More often than not, to my ear, the answer is Yes when listening to the egg. sorry if i went off on a tangent there. How about some of the other listers out there? What do you think? Steve, Dana, And Brian have made some valid points. I've expressed my opinion, semi-coherently. If you disagree with me that's cool. that's what the list is all about. Robert Joyner ===== - ------------------------------------------------------------ "But life is good; it's not as bad as Thom Yorke would have you believe." - Noel Gallagher, Oasis - ------------------------------------------------------------ Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 07:04:59 -0500 From: "Michael Worrell" Subject: Re: Various Hrrm. Posts by Meredith _and_ Steve in one digest. Keep this up, and it'll be a #WCSE reunion tour. Otherwise, responses are to the entire digest as scrolled through. Sorry for no quotes or attribution, but you'll know who you are. Speaking of wcse, I'm gonna have to go to bat for it at this point. Out of 258 CDs arranged in order of purchase, it's #30. Yet, 228 CDs later, wcse is still one of my favorite albums. This means one of two things: 1) I can't buy albums worth a damn; or, 2) it's a good album. It was the second Liz Phair album I bought, several weeks before I found a copy of EIG. and it was a very popular album for me in 1998 and 1999. When my undergrad cross-country team had its ever-so-inconvenient van wreck, a taped copy of wcse was in my late, lamented Walkman. While precious little in the music world will match the Beavis and Butt-head stylings of EIG, I've gotta say that there were some stand-out tracks in my opinion on wcse, and although I did miss the heavy emphasis on guitar from previous outings. Given that 'Supernova' and the original version of 'Stratford-on-Guy' got me hooked on ECP, this wasn't so surprising. 'What Makes You Happy' is a perennial favorite; "all those other bastards were only practice" is such a funny line. Combine that with the off-beat sound to the song, and it's a classic. I don't get the whole anti-'Baby Got Going' thing, but then very few people agree with me that "Liz Phair & Material Issue" sounded pretty good, so I guess that's neither here nor there. For sure, however, that their version of "Turning Japanese" is far superior to the original. Meredith, "straight-ahead sex talk without riot grrrl posturing" has to be one of the classics from this list in terms of wisecracks & one-liners. If I'd ever finished preliminary work on my Liz Phair site, that would have made it into the content for being awfully damn appropriate. For what it's worth, I noticed both of your sites gone, Miss Robbins. Good to hear that they'll be making a comeback. While we may never again hear the 'huh huh huh' vocal style of ECP ca. 1993, the material we do have from then is classic. Sit back, and enjoy the ride; wherever she goes, I for one am reasonably sure that it will be interesting in one way or the other. And no, Michael Penn & Jon Brion don't need to appear at all on the next album, but I'm not Capitol management. Michael NP: 'What Makes You Happy', Liz Phair "You think you know what I'm doing, so obviously you don't."---Aeon Flux ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 04:37:49 -0800 (PST) From: Andy Peters Subject: Liz producers If Liz was more prolific and released more music, I wouldn't mind if she worked with others -- Michael Penn, Pete Yorn, Gary Clark, Steve Jenkins, whoever. But since we only get an album from her once every half-decade, I feel way overdue in getting my Liz Phair/Brad Wood musical fix. I was listening to "Don't Have Time" in the car on the way to work today and the motherfucking song rocks. Brad's drum sound and guitar sound is the perfect complement to Liz's songwriting. That said, I'm not going to complain if we get ANYTHING from Liz next year, even if it's early 80s new-wave synth pop. NP: "Don't Have Time", Liz Phair NP: "Space Oddity", David Bowie Andy P. Decatur, Ga. Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:17:39 -0500 From: "Brian P. Falk" Subject: RE: Meredith Robbins she said: >Anyways, as I'm sure none of you noticed, exileinnetville.com is currently >kaput. i say: i noticed because went to look at the site for the first time in over a year- just this morning. it always perks up a gloomy workday morning when i see pictures of my bumbling tipsy self taunting jesus freaks(i.e.: giving back to society). now i resume hibernation until our beloved creates something- musically, that is- worthy of discussion. you will all have to forgive me for believing that the next big event will be "liz writes a childrens book," or "liz opens an art gallery in l.a." zzzzzzzzzzzzz... ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 08:20:43 -0600 (CST) From: Catherine Lewis Subject: old-old liz photo Gail O'Hara (of the 'zine Chickfactor) launched her photography web site yesterday -- among other things it's got a super-old (pre-EIG) photo of Ms. Phair. I know a lot of people have sites with Liz photographs on them, but please don't use this image (or any of these images) without permission -- they're copyrighted. Gail's contact info is on the contact page. The link is: http://www.gailohara.com (Liz Phair photo is under galleries / chickfactor portraits) Catherine. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 10:12:37 -0500 From: Dan MacDonald Subject: cardigans on crack/Lisa Loeb Experience Steve wrote: >and i thought i was buying the new Garbage album, but somehow i >accidentally ended up with "The Cardigans on Crack". What the hell? Hahaha - probably the best review of the album I've read. Short, to the point and accurate. I was dragged to see Lisa Loeb last night at Magestic theatre and I ....LOVED IT ! hahahaha!! Go figure!! I was totally brought back to my Reality Bites days and sucked in by those horned rimmed glasses... Then oddly enough, the night ended at Magestic Cafe where I hung out with her and her guitar player Ben. (!?!?) I know..fuckin weird as hell....I'm not even a big fan, yet me and my friend Karmen were the only ones there when she was there hanging out...it was fucked...like a dream in a weird way... you know, regardless if yer a fan or not - it was just like "Wait..I'm at a table with Lisa Loeb...huh..what the FUCK?!?" So that was my nite..nice and fun....she was really nice - like - genuinely - - she got a big kick out of us being Canadian and she said she knew I was Canadian right away because I said "eh". I didn't even NOTICE I said it..how awful is that?! I guess it is obvious...but basically we talked about Canadian stuff!! SHe was like, genuinely interested!! and I told her about my radio show..all that shit again, she was like - grilling me and asking ME questions it was weird..I gave her the show's email...it was cool. Regardless if her songs are all that great - I just really liked her attitude - she was soo cool - and my friend Karmen is a MAJOR fan - so for lisa to actually let us sit with them and have a coffee..it was just something I don't see everyday from artists. Any fans on here - I guess her new album is gonna be called "Cake and Pie" and it's coming out in March....she wrote the bulk of songs with her boyfriend Dweezil Zappa :) hahahaha anyway, talk to you soon, Dan. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 11:41:05 EST From: NegSplitz@aol.com Subject: Thanks Jaimee! Just a quick "muchas gracias" to Jaimee for her wonderful PJ Harvey CD that she made available to many of us. Her selections reveal a real special feeling for Polly..It's nice that such kindness can still be found. Thanks again! Wes "I walk on concrete, I walk on sand, I can't find a safe place to stand"..Big Exit. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 8 Nov 2001 17:28:14 -0500 From: "Chris DeLisle" Subject: o ye of little faith first of all, i hate to be anal, but it's A-R-G-U-M-E-N-T. i'm sorry. i'm about to become a teacher and i once won the 6th grade spelling bee. now, as far as Liz is concerned, the only problem a number of us have, really, is that we'll never have that "first fuck" again with Liz. Pete Townshend of the Who once wrote or said that the Who were never able to obtain that "first fuck" again after they released and toured the album "Tommy." or in other words, they were never able to attain that rising level of joy and critical and artistic success their first real success afforded them. even after releasing two amazing albums ("Who's Next" and "Quadrophenia"), it was never the same for Townshend as that first rise to fame when you had the whole world in your hands. for some people, that first fuck with Liz was EIG...for others, W-S...and for others, it was WCSE. there are plenty of artists who have released great albums after my "f.f." with them: Tom Waits never did any better than his first album, "Closing Time," but he's had an interesting career; Springsteen probably never did any better than "Born To Run," but he put out a lot of great stuff after that; Boston never got any better than...oh, sorry, poor choice, possibly ~ but you understand. i'm sure this might even be a decent thread if someone ran with it. for me, in the end, Liz Phair is absolutely in the upper echelon of songwriters in rock history. for me, there will never be another album like EIG, but that's because there hasn't been another one like it in the history of rock and roll. she's not going to top it, but she's in the process of developing her craft. Bob Mould may never be any better than "The Act We Act" off of Sugar's "Copper Blue" album from 1992 (or "Reoccurring Dreams" off of Husker Du's "Zen Arcade" record in 1984), but that doesn't mean i'm not going to buy his next record the day it comes out. i think, perhaps, by the time Liz reaches Elvis Costello's age, i might give her record a listen or two before buying it (where have you gone, hurt and vicious nerd-punk of mine?). but if "Down" is any indication, Liz is just fine. (i don't think Liz has to worry about this, but) my college friends and i had a long discussion about why bands sucked after a while. back in the late 80's and early 90's, bands such as Mudhoney ("Superfuzz Bigmuff" and their eponymous album), the Poster Children ("Daisy Chain Reaction"), Monster Magnet ("Spine of God"), and even Pavement ("Slanted & Enchanted" and probably "Crooked Rain, Crooked Rain") released amazing albums and then fell off the face of relevant earth to us. it makes you think that it might not be so bad that bands like the Police and Jane's Addiction weren't wrong in breaking up when they did. and it makes you wonder how long bands like Sleater-Kinney and Radiohead can maintain their status as the creme de la creme of their respective genres, putting out relevant albums like they have. now that i've completely gone off topic, let me just say that Liz will come through. she may not rock your world anymore, but who knows? as long as she has a voice and a guitar, she is quite capable of anything. chris deLisle ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 22:42:04 From: "Gerry Lipnowski" Subject: Re Gary Clark and Liz - Only Son Earlier this week, Michael Honaker in his comments on WCSE wrote: >Thank god for vinyl, side one is better than side two, in my opinion. I think I mainly avoid side two because it starts off with "Only Son"... which is... well... (my opinion again...).......a >waste of space on an album. I know this was a commonly held view when WCSE came out, as I recall that I seemed to be the solitary person on the list who thought, and still thinks, that "Only Son" is a tremendous song. As one of the most autobiographical songs of Liz's, although not expressed from her point of view, I find it very touching to hear her reflect on the difficulties and heartache families with adopted children often experience. From what I understand (and I obviously could be very wrong here....), the song is about Liz's own troubled brother, but even if it's a total work of fiction, it's a very moving song.....although Michael, and most Liz fans, seem to find it moving in that they prefer to move past it as quickly as possible. So, just out of curiosity, I'll ask the same question I asked the list in August 1998: Am I the only person here who likes "Only Son"? Or has it grown on anybody three years later...? Gerry _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 08 Nov 2001 15:19:19 -0800 From: Kenneth Lee Subject: Breathe pictures added to Mesmerizing Hi all, I've added some Breathe pictures to the image gallery at Mesmerizing. Enjoy! - -Ken kenmlee@ix.netcom.com MeSmErIzInG - AnOtHeR LiZ PhAiR WeBsItE http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2471 ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V4 #288 ************************************