From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V4 #287 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Thursday, November 8 2001 Volume 04 : Number 287 Today's Subjects: ----------------- EIG/EOMS [Dermich@aol.com] mass debater ["DarkSide oftheMoon" ] Re: mass debater [robert joyner ] Re: Michael Penn [Jase ] kisko ["Brian P. Falk" ] Re: state of affairs [Meredith Robbins ] liz on vh-1, again. [Kelly Scofield ] re: state of affairs [---becky--- ] in support of SK ["Dana Polachowski" ] grant lee phillips ["Dana Polachowski" ] Re: grant lee phillips [AWeiss4338@aol.com] Wow. Ouch. ["steve kisko" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 01:31:04 EST From: Dermich@aol.com Subject: EIG/EOMS I get the digest, so I'm sure I'll be one of many saying this... Liz has said that the "response to the Stones" thing is actually overblown, and that she really used Main Street as a reference simply to sequence songs that had already been pretty much completed. But yes, I agree with you Kate that they still go together well. Hey, I told y'all about a great singer/songwriter called Wes Cunningham a year or so ago. Well, he's away from Warner Bros. now (shades of Jen Trynin), and is about to release his new album Pollyanna himself, thru cdbaby.com. WELL worth checking out. Wes has an alterna-country/sweet rock thing that I can't really compare to anyone else. I LOVE the new record. www.wescunningham.com is coming back soon as well, I think. D ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 03:24:22 -0500 From: "DarkSide oftheMoon" Subject: mass debater In regards to steve and roberts' posts: Alright...finally some challenging rhetoric from both sides of the fence. Reminds me of the good old days on this list. Onward... The weird thing is that i can agree with things that both of you two music critics are saying (must be a Virgo thing)....let's dissect.. Steve sez: >I tried so hard to not reply to that last digest, but some of the opinions >expressed therein were so annoying, and I guess I still feel strongly about >Liz's music. Well now....annoying? C'mon dude...half the fun is trying to convert the other side...let's not get nasty. We all feel strongly about Liz's music, hence the very exsistence of this list and all us closet critics. >Nothing can ever invalidate that album, no matter how hard Liz tries to >make herself irrelevant, so I guess I'll always be a fan in some way. Who on here is trying to invalidate that album? Show of hands? I didn't think so. EIG is and will *always* be her crowning achievement. The time of the recording in her life, the production, the low-fi-pot-smoking classic that it is stands the test of time. And what jury deceided that she is trying to make her self irrelevant? Did I miss the self-destruction sequence where Liz imploded like a black hole? (i know, i know, she has made questionable decisions about many things - she is after all like us all - fallable) Look at your lives people. Are you where you were 10 years ago? If you are then I suggest that stagnation might be the keyword here. (AC/DC comes to mind.) >There's nothing to trip over on WCSE (and I'm not speaking >pharmacologically) -- every song sounds like it *could* be a single. >There's hardly anything memorable about it (maybe you could remember that >album & the subsequent tour as "the keyboard era"). It is more 'accessible' i will give you that. It is more produced (i did describe it as overproduced a few oposts ago but only in comparison to her other work) than I care for. For god's sake get Brad back on the train Liz! Her work with Scott Litt was like mixing chocolate syrup and tequila - both great but not meant to be mixed together. It does bother me than she has shyed away from the one thing that does blow me away and that is her guitar playing. Keyboards are fine tho and I am glad to see her add it to the mix. Uncle Alvarez is a standout cut, the first one I heard and instantly likeable. But keybords shouldn't be her main focus - she is a simplistic yet complex guitarist but i see that capablility fading with each album. >Anyway, to wrap it up in a neat little package, WCSE sucks, long live Exile >in Guyville; there IS such a thing as selling out, and yes, Liz has >definitely sold out: the ship has sailed, the shark has sunk, the bowl is >cashed. No. WCSE doesn't suck. It is *not* EIG nor WS. It is what it is. It just doesn't fit your tastes and/or your conception of what *you* want Liz to be. We can't go back home Toto. As much as I would like Liz to put out an album like EIG was, it ain't going to happen. The times are a changing and guess what - Liz is too. I don't expect Liz to stand still in her life and as it changes, so does her perception and her writing. Blame the a-holes in corporate music-land for glossing her sound if you must but don't bash Liz. As we all know over time most bands 'smooth' out their sound. It's inevtiable. Robert sez: >Quirky, just not within a guitar based sound. And that is often steve's >arguements. It's all about the guitar with this guy. Steve doesn't think >Liz is capable of viable music outside of a guitar sound. And I guess we just tend to disagree. As for myself the guitar work is what drew me to Liz in the first place. There is still some of her chording that I have yet to figure out - and that fascinates me. Keyboards are fine, but when it is the main focus as in some songs on WCSE, to me it throws her music into a different listening mode, probably because being a guitarist and not a keybord player I'm the one 'listening' different. >Unless you are selling your records out of the trunk of your car, then >you've sold out. It's just a matter of degree after that point. I don't think I would draw the line quite that low. Selling out to me is comprimising your artistic intentions to make shit loads of money (ha!)and knuckle under to the corporate swine to sell a product. I know of plenty of crappy albums (and films for that matter) that *had* to be made and absolutely sucked - but the artist had a vision and went for it. DarkSide oftheMoon "I didn't think it was possible, but this both sucks and blows." Bart Simpson _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 03:01:16 -0800 (PST) From: robert joyner Subject: Re: mass debater - --- DarkSide oftheMoon wrote: >EIG is and will *always* be her crowning > achievement. The time of > the recording in her life, the production, the > low-fi-pot-smoking classic > that it is stands the test of time. Amen. Guyville is a total classic that i will be listening to twenty years from now and it will still be as good then. Most artists never attain such levels in their whole careers and while we all hope she is able to recapture that magic, I don't know that that is all together realistic. > It is more 'accessible' i will give you that. It is > more produced (i did > describe it as overproduced a few oposts ago but > only in comparison to her > other work) than I care for. I can see where some people say that the production on some of the tracks on WCSE causes it to lose that liz phair feel. On some of the tracks Liz seems more into looking for a sound as opposed to creating one. I say this because the music on three of the tracks are credited to producer (the title track and Big Tall Man to Jason Chasko and Baby Got Going to Scott Litt). In addition Fantasize is more of an REM (recorded w Mills, Buck, and Berry) track than anything Liz sounding. This lack of the typical Liz phair sound doesn't necessarily mean they are automatically bad (My opinion - The Chasko tracks are good and tend to mix well with the Brad wood produced tracks; Baby Got Going - let me put it this way, one of the few tracks that i fast foward through; Fantasize - okay i guess, i could take or leave it). > No. WCSE doesn't suck. It is *not* EIG nor WS. It is > what it is. It just > doesn't fit your tastes and/or your conception of > what *you* want Liz to be. I guess that was what my original post kinda was hinting at. Totally rejecting WCSE as a sucking because of "production" or song structures is giving the short shrift to some pretty decent songs that were on the album. While I have my own own issues with WCSE (it lacks continuity), overall it is an above average CD. > As for myself the guitar work is what drew me to Liz > in the first place. If Liz does go back to a more guitar-centered sound on her next record, I think i can join with you and steve in saying that wouldn't bother me a bit. You'll get no arguement from me that there are some great guitar based songs on both WS and Guyville. I think the sound of the album will kinda be dictated by the producers she is using for the album (Producers have played a large part in the creative processon all of Liz's albums, moreso than most artists). Working with Pete Yorn is in an encouraging sign in that most of his music is more of rootsy organic type. As for Michael Penn, outside of No Myth I'm not really familiar with his work. Anybody out there gota feel for what his signature sound is? How would you describe him? robert joyner ===== - ------------------------------------------------------------ "But life is good; it's not as bad as Thom Yorke would have you believe." - Noel Gallagher, Oasis - ------------------------------------------------------------ Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 07:10:26 -0500 From: Jase Subject: Re: Michael Penn Robert Joyner wrote: >As for Michael Penn, outside of No Myth I'm not really >familiar with his work. Anybody out there gota feel >for what his signature sound is? How would you >describe him? I've been meaning to join in on the recent threads, including the debate, but I'd probably end up just echoing a lot of the points that have already been made by both sides. But since you're curious about Michael Penn, here's a subject I may have something to contribute to. Overall, I think his sensibility is not all that far removed from that of someone like Matthew Sweet, although his hooks are usually less obvious. To me, he belongs to the school of Beatles-influenced guitar pop (the best evidence of this would on songs like "Me Around"). For those who want to hear more guitar on Liz's new album, you probably need not worry with Penn producing some of the tracks. He knows how to get a good guitar sound and quite often layers acoustic and electric parts over one another to good effect. For those who like keyboards, well, Penn has no prejudice against them either. Like his wife, Aimee Mann, he shares a fondness for vintage keyboards and their sounds. You don't need to worry about something that will sound overdone or cheesy. Penn's music is somewhat similar in spirit to that of Aimee. If you're familiar at all with her song "Wise Up," you've already heard one of his productions. If you're interested in checking out some of his work, I'd recommend his third album, _Resigned_ as the best starting point. It's both the most consistent and the most accessible of all his records. As for his other releases, a remastered version of his first album, _March_, which features "No Myth," was released yesterday. There's also nine bonus tracks included from the follow-up, _Free-for-all_. I haven't gotten the remastered disc yet, but I'm looking forward to picking it up sometime later this week. My only issue with it is that the inclusion of _Free-for-all_ in almost its entirety (only one song was cut from the remaster) likely means that that album will never receive its own proper rerelease. Still, it's good to have all of this music available again; both albums have been out of print for quite a while. Anyway, hope that helps. Cheers, Jase NP: Kristin Hersh, _Sunny Border Blue_ (likely my album of the year so far) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:40:24 -0500 From: "Brian P. Falk" Subject: kisko i concur w/ kisko. EIG is an unbelievable work of art. and if you wanna be blunt, yeah WCSE "sucks," if only in a relative sense (turn on the radio station of your choice and then tell me it sucks). and i don't care what anyone says, liz is over. my manic four-shows-in-2-weeks 1999 party bash notwithstanding, it has been so long since the last album i don't even care anymore. she has obviously moved on, so why shouldn't i? and i think i would rather go see a happy drunken bob pollard belt sincerely happy drunken rock songs, than quiver with anticipation for the next liz billboard, magazine add or sitcom theme. now really, with all these hands stirring the pot, do any of you think this new album (if it ever does get released)is gonna make your spine tingle the way the first one did? yeah, she's going to exact some juicy revenge on her ex, but at this point, who cares? if it was something she really felt strongly about expressing, she'd have been out there expressing it a long time ago. instead, she's busy being a mom and a model and whatever else suits her fancy when she wakes up in the morning. which, of course, is fine; people should do what they want with their lives. but i don't expect to feel anything in my gut when another record comes out, and if EIG swept you away as much as it did me, you shouldn't either. it was fun, but it most obviously over. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:54:08 -0500 From: Meredith Robbins Subject: Re: state of affairs The redoubtable Steve Kisko, who it turns out was not hit by a speeding Volkswagen or carried away by a golden eagle to serve the gods on Mt. Olympus (or do they have dial-up there?), wrote: >The *important* difference between EIG & WCSE, for those of us who >appreciate Liz's craftiness & originality before her "honesty" or the >"emotional truths" of her lyrics, has nothing to do with thematic content >(marriage, baby, divorce, successful transitions from outsider to insider), >and everything to do with the songs' unusual structure, melody, >riffs/chords, shaky vocal performance, etc.: the things about Liz Phair that >made Liz Phair the unique artist she was. This discussion list reads so >often like another uninformed music rag article -- you know, they're always >talkin' about the lyrics! Steve, Steve, you break my heart. You didn't use to think I was stupid, or so it appeared. But now it turns out: lyrics don't matter, and people who think they matter are "uninformed." Bull, as they say, shit, my little friend. If Exile in Guyville had been a collection of "unusual structure, melody, riffs/chords, shaky vocal performance," yadda yadda yadda, but with lyrics written by, say, the guy who wrote that god-awful song with the line "my heart burns like a wicker cabinet"*, it certainly wouldn't have been a masterpiece. Liz's stunningly well-written, always surprising, often groundbreaking lyrics -- straight-ahead sex talk without riot grrrl posturing, crystalline meditations on the things that matter but that don't get talked about -- are what has always attracted me to her work (I'm a musical semi-moron, I admit it) and a huge part of what has made her, as you say, a "unique artist." Anyways, as I'm sure none of you noticed, exileinnetville.com is currently kaput. The guys who had been hosting both my websites and paying for the domain name registrations decided, without informing me, to stop paying the bills. But! After I posted about my plight on the newsgroup alt.fan.liz-phair ("why are there so many penis enlargement ads on this BBS?"), I received a lovely e-mail from an equally lovely man named Dan Mohrbacher, offering to help me out. I had a long (and lovely) conversation with him last night, and hot damn, this guy gets things the fuck DONE. It's good thing everyone loves me and wants to give me money, even though I don't do a lick of work (and have, in fact, been unsubscribed to this mailing list since May 2000). So for those of you who have been lying awake nights, wondering what has become of Exile in Netville, fear not: it should be back soon, and this might even be the kick in the pants I need to actually update it.** This Dan fellow is a mover and a shaker in the world of Poe fandom, and he seems like a great resource to have. Like I said, this is a man who gets results. So I hope he will say hello! Peace out, Meredith whom Steve *used to* love, and I have proof *You know, that "tender heart in a blender" song. I used to hear it on the radio all the time; it made me wish I didn't speak English. Eve 6? One of those bands with the one word and the number. **For those of you wondering about the fate of electricity.org (which should be, um, maybe Steve?), it's probably destined for my space at columbia.edu. I know, it's sad. But how many sugar daddies can one girl reasonably be expected to acquire? - -- "Don't let lack of talent hold you back!" -- Ann-Marie Bivans, _101 Secrets to Winning Beauty Pageants_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:14:08 -0800 (PST) From: Kelly Scofield Subject: liz on vh-1, again. i only saw about a minute before it ended, but she was on this special about the 80s... the new wave/alternative part of the series... they had interviews with her and other people... has anyone else seen this? kelly Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 08:25:47 -0800 (PST) From: ---becky--- Subject: re: state of affairs steve - thank you for your insights. we could spend months asserting which of liz's albums are better (or have we already) but it is refreshing to hear an arguement well supported. but before killing steve for having an opinion (and a well thought out one at that) let's realize that we all like liz phair's broad spectrum of music for different reasons, we all found it at different times, and - hey - art is sunjective. there are people on this list who like garbage - a band i have never really cared for - but i'm not about to attack anyone for it. their music just ain't my bag and that's all i need to know. at any rate, steve's arguements made me look at things a little differently and it is rare that things on this list do that. back to hiding, becky ===== "we participate in tragedy. at comedy we only look" -aldous huxley http://www.crosswinds.net/~beckybecky Find a job, post your resume. http://careers.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:19:18 -0800 From: "Dana Polachowski" Subject: in support of SK i totally agree w/ steve kisko; everything he said was right on. when i first heard EiG, back in the day, i remember thinking, "she's gonna have a hard time topping this..." and kind of admiring her bravery that way, to come out of the gate with such a masterpiece. she set the bar pretty high for herself, but then we all found out she didn't necessarily intend to have a "career" in music, so, that helped put things into perspective.... but she didn't close herself off entirely; there were still places she could've gone instead of directly to pop-land. also, i think brad wood's input was hugely instrumental in EiGs success and i know she totally hated that. she didn't want to need him that much. she wanted to make it without him, key words being *make it.* think about it.... someone i know, upon hearing WS, hissed, "it's like she curled up in a ball and died...." now, i disagree with that dismissal (nashville, for one, is pure genius), but the writing was on the wall even then.... and that's why WCSE didn't disappoint in that regard, for me anyway. i knew she'd go to the dark side. which is fine. it just makes me sad. she's trying to be so "nice" and "palatable" on that record. she'll *always* have keen insights; no question there. and she hasn't lost her "quirkiness," either. but just because someone is dealing with marriage/baby/mortgage issues doesn't mean they're more "mature." just more frazzled. i think using that "maturity" label is just a nice way of saying, "ok, you've lost your edge, but you've got kids now. we still like you." whatever.... i know she's just tryin' to play ball and i certainly don't hate her for it, but her musical grit and relevance is on the serious decline. it's just unfortunate--the biz is bigger than her and it's hard to watch a good person go down. ba dum bump. dp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 09:36:52 -0800 From: "Dana Polachowski" Subject: grant lee phillips oh, before i forget, i gotta ask: anyone know what the deal is with grant lee phillips on "gilmore girls"? i totally *love* that guy and i notice he appears quite frequently as a sorta "minstrel." (i really liked the flamin' pink hair, too) i saw in the credits that "sam phillips" does the music for the show. is that his brother or dad or something? it's not the woman married to t-bone burnett, is it (in a stroke of uncanny serendipity....)? thanks in advance for any info.... dp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 7 Nov 2001 13:00:36 EST From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: grant lee phillips In a message dated 11/7/01 12:42:38 PM Eastern Standard Time, daisywheel@mindspring.com writes: > i saw in the credits that "sam phillips" does the music for the show. is > that his brother or dad or something? it's not the woman married to t-bone > burnett, is it (in a stroke of uncanny serendipity....)? > > Yes it is the Sam Phillips that's married to T-Bone. If you want to check out her work, start with Fan Dance on Nonsuch records. You'll love it. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2001 23:49:43 From: "steve kisko" Subject: Wow. Ouch. Robert Joyner wrote: <> I'm pretty sure I was thinking that form & quality are, or can be in certain cases, directly related, especially when the piece in question *seems* perhaps slightly more interesting (and therefore better) when an unconventional form is used. Code-fucking is cool, man. Conversely, Liz has definitely written several terrific verse-chorus-verse songs. Wasn't "Supernova" irritating to those who heard Exile in Guyville first? It was her biggest radio/MTV hit, it has a standard structure, and it was the first Liz song I ever heard & remains one of my Top 5 all-time favorite Liz tunes. What I was saying about WCSE was that all of its songs try to do the same thing, follow that classic song structure, and as a result, the whole album seems very conformist & stilted, at least from a structural standpoint. <> You're inferring a whole lot there, obviously. I'm just saying that Liz is leaving little to no room these days for songs that *seem* unconventional. She's obviously making her best effort to not be a challenging artist to anyone who may be unfamiliar with her music. <> I'm not an indie hipster, but, we digress. I don't have a problem with slick production, in fact 90% of the records I own & listen to on a regular basis sound pretty slick to me. Oh, and I forgot to say in my original post that I, too, am a fan of Sheryl Crow & look forward to her next album. <> That's your opinion; I would've preferred the "1997 Running Order" version of WCSE that Ken Lee released. Brad Wood even preferred the original rock version of "What Makes You Happy" but Liz was the one who insisted on the electronica version. (Derek?) <> I don't like bad songs, either, but favoring production values over words & music seems slightly superficial. Or am I going too far out on a limb with this inference? <> No, she isn't, and I find that truly disheartening. Thanks for the "Uncle Alvarez" story, though. That's one of my favorite songs from WCSE. <> I'm sure she's capable of it, and I'd be happy to hear any kind of song from her that's good, it doesn't have to be guitar-based. But I do prefer a guitar-based sound. It probably ranks up in the top 5 of the most essential instruments in rock and roll. <> I know all about the sensitivity surrounding the sell-out thing, and I know there are people who thought Liz sold out as soon as she made Exile in Guyville. What I meant was, she's definitely reached a point where she's willing to compromise her artistic integrity to the point where longtime fans are losing interest and/or respect. I don't think there was any looking back after she cashed that $400,000 advance check from Atlantic in the mid-90s. It's clear where the priorities are now, and that's why I'm 100% skeptical about the next album. I'd like to continue to be a fan of Liz's, but she's making it really difficult. Anyway, wow. And ouch. SK _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V4 #287 ************************************