From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V4 #236 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Monday, September 17 2001 Volume 04 : Number 236 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Sorry to get preachy [Dermich@aol.com] In reply... [s.fried@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au] Re: In reply... [ReallyHip@aol.com] Terrorism [drpeak@juno.com] Re: support-system-digest V4 #235 ["Andrea Steiner" ] Audio Galaxy Liz Group ["HaloJocelyn ..." ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 01:55:55 EDT From: Dermich@aol.com Subject: Sorry to get preachy Hey kids: I'm the last one in the world to want war, but PLEASE don't go around spouting half-baked "truths" about how the situation in the middle east is about US actions in the '80s. That is beyond simplistic. This particular feud goes back all the way to World War I, when the Central powers tried to take over Europe. Which goes to the collapse of Russia and the rise of Communism. Which then goes to WWII, with Hitler killing millions of Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals. Which goes to the creation of Israel. Which goes to the displacement of Palestinians. Which goes to the West helping a desperately willing middle east learn to drill for its oil. Which goes to fundamentalist Muslims' resentment of Western riches invading the middle east. Bin Laden's MAIN beef is with what he considers to be a secularized Saudi Arabia. The US is just a focus of his hate. And MANY of the anti-US interventionists out there are HUGE anti-Semites. Don't let yourself be fooled by them. This is all "If the Jews are so hated around the world, it must be their fault" reasoning, no matter WHAT country it's aimed at. So it's NOT one answer, and it sure as heck isn't black and white. Don't forget that some of the Palestinians you see celebrating Western death in the streets are wearing Lakers hats. And they are desperate for the antibiotics and sewage treatment methods that make their lives better. It's a two-way street. Don't listen to demagogues, and don't be so quick to believe anyone has the answer. People have been fighting as long as there have been people, just as dogs fight when other dogs use the tree they've been pissing on. The middle east has been engaged in conflict for thousands of years, as have many other corners of the globe. Humanity will always war. It's nobody's fault, and it's everybody's fault. You cannot square diversity with utopia. Ain't gonna happen. Just make sure you don't carry around hate. That's all any one person can do. I love you all. D ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:16:43 +1000 From: s.fried@ugrad.unimelb.edu.au Subject: In reply... I just want to say that my opinions on US roles in history does not reflect what I think of what happened. Im sorry all those people died and it shouldnt have happened. And before I get kicked off or really piss people off with my views Ill just put in some Liz stuff. This Australian band called Deadstar said in this interview in a females in rock zine, Polymer, I really like Liz Phaire (sic)So I like Liz Phaire because she rocks but shes sort of got this very soothing folky edge to her rocking. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printedin the CongressionalRecord:"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the mostgenerous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth.Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out ofthe debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars andforgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying eventhe interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was indanger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries into help. This spring, 59 American communities ! were flattened by tornadoes.Nobody helped.The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars intodiscouraged countries. Ok yeah US gave lots of $ after WWII BUT that was only to certain countries, i.e. the ones that were on Americas side. Did America help Eastern Europe and Russia after WWII? No! Because it was so scared of Communism and therefore part of the reason behind US giving aid after WWII was self-interest. I mean if they didnt help these countries who would they had been able to trade with? Who would they be able to rely as allies in the Cold War and as fodder for POINTLESS proxy wars in the Cold War era e.g. Vietnam. There is no way that America should have gotten involved in Vietnam. South Vietnam didnt need to be saved from the evils of Communism and anyway the fact that America went into Vietnam because they were so paranoid about Communism and the whole domino theory shows once again America was acting in its self-interest. Yes America has done a lot of good BUT it has also done a lot of bad things. American companies exploit third-world countries and will continue to do s! o and I know its hard for the US government not to support these companies considering the huge economic benefits but maybe they should put pressure on the companies to improve the standard of the working conditions of these companies and the rate of pay they get. I dont want to start a big fight here but I just dont think the above is an accurate representation of Americas various roles in history, they also have done bad things. someone dumbass rednecks shot up the muslim temple in my hometown. i am so worried about what other prejudices will be adhered to anyone who looks middle eastern. i even caught my roommate looking suspiciously at this really sweet guy who works at the convienance store, he always talks to everyone, and she was scared of him. this is scary.  Yeah, a lebanese church was attacked in Sydney here in Australia on Wednesday night. Its just so bloody stupid to do that and even if it does turn out that the terrorists were Muslim or Lebanese or whatever what the hell does stuff like that achieve? Its not like the people of that background living here and America and elsewhere had anything to do with the bombing anyway. I'm afraid of what will happen when America strikes back.When US bombed the living fuck out of Hiroshima - it was different.They were very much saying "Don't fuck with us.." but at the same time - Hiroshima couldn't really fuck back that much, because they were such a small and somewhat crippled country to begin with. Another point to demonstrate that America isnt always the good guy. Hiroshima and Nagasaki shouldnt have happened. Japan was going to surrender anyway and what the hell did killing thousands of innocent Japanese achieve? Well yeah it achieved what America wanted to with the bombing, if you believe some theories, in that it impressed Russia with the hydrogen bomb and made the rest of the world scared of America. By the point yes Japan was crippled but prior to that it sure as hell wasnt. It was quietly taking over Asia in WWII and even early in the 20th century, it beat Russia in the 1904-05 Japanese-Russo war and then successfully invaded China. Anyway, hope all you Americans and Canadians are ok, Sally I will not be afraid of women Dar Williams ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 11:21:43 EDT From: ReallyHip@aol.com Subject: Re: In reply... Dar... Look into more of the history about Hiroshima and Nagasaki. You will find that the Japanese were not even remotely close to surrendering. Even after the first bomb, the emporer vowed to fight until the last man. The Japanese fighting ethic was to win at all costs, using kamikaze, etc. We ultimately saved lives by using those bombs as a display of force (A land invasion, which would have been next would have killed far far more people {japanese and americans}). I wish we didnt have to, but the fact is... we did. Also, given their inhuman methods against out troops (The methods of torture and death they used made the Nazi death camp process look like a massage parlor), there should be less questioning about the use of the bomb. You've got to read up on this stuff, past the point of history textbooks. Its quite fascinating. So... how's this going to affect Liz's next album? Im betting on a spring 2004 release. - -Michael "ready to melt" Gehrig "and the rockets... red glare, the bombs bursting, in mid air." - Liz, Bars of the Bed ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:23:23 -0400 From: drpeak@juno.com Subject: Terrorism I feel I must respond to Dana Polachowski's letter as its been on my mind a lot since I first read it. Yes, the CIA gave help to Bin Laden as they have helped many others, but they didn't order or even suggest to him to carry out this monstrous act upon the free nations of the world--more than just innocent Americans lost their lives in this terrorist act. I do feel that the CIA and even the FBI, even though they have been monitoring and trailing many of these people since they entered the country (how else can you account for the speed at which they've "discovered" all this information about them?) but I honestly think that they had no idea just what these people intended to do--they've been getting on and off of planes for months without giving any indication of their intentions. The members of the CIA and the FBI were just as surprised and horrified as the rest of us. As far as talk of "not taking revenge" (as Dan MacDonald put it in his letter) let me put it this way: Imagine there is a serial killer loose in your city. Afraid of getting caught he takes refuge in a friend's house. The police know he's there, the people know he's there. The home owner allows others into the house so the killer can train them, give them money and know how to carry out other killings and acts of violence. They go out into your city--your neighborhood--and kill and kill again. What should the police's response be to the homeowner when he says that the killer is innocent and he won't give him up? And these people he's trained start killing your friends, your family? D.R.Peak ________________________________________________________________ GET INTERNET ACCESS FROM JUNO! Juno offers FREE or PREMIUM Internet access for less! Join Juno today! For your FREE software, visit: http://dl.www.juno.com/get/tagj. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:22:32 -0400 From: "Andrea Steiner" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V4 #235 America needs to strike back with violence. Violence is the only language terrorists understand. You can't reason with terrorists. You can't reason with the evil and inhuman monsters who attacked America. Logic and reason and justice and especially freedom and the value of human life mean nothing to them. The only way to make sure this tragedy never happens again is to strike back with military action. Adding extra security to airports and public buildings will not eradicate the threat of terrorism. Not even close. Our leaders and leaders across the world have to work together to root out terrorism and destroy the masterminds behind terrorist plans. They have to be destroyed at their core. It is the only way and it will mean military action. It will mean violence. But it is the only way. And for everyone who believes America shouldn't act right now out of blind rage, well, I believe that rage and anger is what will motivate the world to mobilize to make sure this tragedy never happens again.Get more from the Web. FREE MSN Explorer download : http://explorer.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:15:16 -0700 From: "HaloJocelyn ..." Subject: Audio Galaxy Liz Group I have started up a Liz group on Audio Galaxy for all those who share music on there. I noticed there wasn't one, and with the recent events happening, I thought it would be a good place to meet and talk about our feelings, as well as Liz. To make it simple and able to remember it's called "Support System- A Liz Phair Group". My name on Audio Galaxy is HaloJocelyn, in case their is a problem or if you would like to get a hold of me. Hope to see some of you there. Jocelyn* _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V4 #236 ************************************