From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V4 #108 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Monday, April 23 2001 Volume 04 : Number 108 Today's Subjects: ----------------- thanks james [---becky--- ] Sell-out? Hardly... [Peckcw@aol.com] you better check with me ["Dana Polachowski" ] Re: support-system-digest V4 #107 [Random828@aol.com] Bounced message [owner-support-system@smoe.org (by way of Jason Long ] I'm really not a cowgirl.... [LilRussianGirl@aol.com] ps - [LilRussianGirl@aol.com] Re: Shall we change the subject? (Lilith Fair?) [RbSayre@aol.com] women in power? [Emo5858@aol.com] Lilith impact [PJposters@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 00:13:37 -0700 (PDT) From: ---becky--- Subject: thanks james james - thanks for speaking your mind. soemthing was encapsulated there. rock out, becky ===== "i know i'm weird and i can feel myself getting weirder" -harland williams playing callum in 'dog park' http://www.crosswinds.net/~beckybecky Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 11:29:50 EDT From: Peckcw@aol.com Subject: Sell-out? Hardly... Hey all! Just a quick post here, with a thought about Liz. As we await the fourth album, there have been some who've lamented that WCSE wasn't EIG. Nor, for that matter, was WS. But they're all good CDs, in their own right. But the bottom line remains that EIG was a landmark album. It made Rolling Stone's list of the 100 rock albums to own. It spoke to a lot of people. WCSE just didn't feel the same. Well, I challenge the people reading this to name more than one book by J.D. Salinger, or by Jack Kerouac, or by Hemingway, for that matter. Liz is of course, not a one-hit-wonder, and I am not suggesting such a thing. What I am suggesting is that her first work was brilliant, and immediately destined for the status of a classic. It is to music what "Catcher in the Rye," "One the Road," and "A Farewell to Arms" were to literature: it was brilliant, it captured the imagination of its audience, and it effectively dwarfed the future works of its creator. That is the price of early brilliance. So, don't beat up on Liz. Celebrate her, instead. She gave us all the anthems that got us through college and life. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 10:46:05 -0700 From: "Dana Polachowski" Subject: you better check with me well, ok, i think my problem with her right now (post-whipsmart) is that, for the most part, she's not saying what she thinks, but what she thinks people wanna hear. (or what she can get away with in the banal pop format...) and i don't know about you, but i can stand that from someone--anyone--for only so long. then it's like, "don't waste my time." and i'm talking about her musical expression, not about her shopping disorder. as far as that goes, i can only empathize. like, in real life, from real people, not even "artists" or whatever, it kinda makes me nuts when i'm standing there listening to someone who is clearly makin' shit up for their own amusement. and especially when they keep doing it. do i need to be there? this is not communication. it's insulting, really. so i don't think it's a matter of people being fickle, just intolerant of falseness after a certain length of time. and anyway, happiness doesn't make *everyone* lazy. dp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 14:02:06 EDT From: Random828@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V4 #107 Jase, I'm sending this via "Reply" because it's to you, not the list. I work for the company that owns Bill Graham Productions, and was at a company meeting last week where I snagged a 13" x 19" poster advertising the 12/12/00 show Aimee Mann and Grant Lee Phillips put on at the Fillmore in San Francisco. If you're a memorabilia kind of guy, I'd be happy to drop it in a mailing tube to you, in recognition of your tireless work on the list, the Phairites project, etc. Just let me know. Bye for now, and thanks for everything. Bill Hamersly ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 15:59:12 -0400 From: owner-support-system@smoe.org (by way of Jason Long ) Subject: Bounced message From: "steve kisko" Subject: long-winded, even for me I have to agree that, if nothing else, it's nice to see some actual Liz discussion on this flagging list... <> But that's how it's *always* been. You could say she only made Guyville so she could afford her own health/car insurance (which is true, just so you know), and now, if she makes more records, it's so she can afford this SUV or that designer dress. My problem isn't with how she spends her money, as long as she doesn't fall into that vapid state of mind -- thinking inside the box -- like so many of the problem shoppers I see daily on the hyper-conformist, hoity-toity street where I work. In press for WCSE, Liz said some really interesting things about the fine line she walks. This is my favorite, from Music Choice, Nov. 1998: Q: So are you totally immersed in suburbia right now? A: No. No. It's like the game I'm playing right now. What I realized when I became a mom is that as much as I can acquire the trappings, I'm still the same person, and I always require some kind of authority to rebel against. When you are an adult and out there and working, there isn't a bad guy to point your finger at. My attraction to suburbia is very primal, to have a strict context in which to differentiate yourself. Does that make sense? And there's something perverted in me that likes the idea of being part of suburbia and really also doing... secret things [Laughs]. I'm glad Robert Joyner used that John Henderson quote. Even in 1994, if there were any doubts about what Liz wanted to get out of making music, this was someone who knew her from way back, and was (even in 1993) disgusted by what Liz had done musically! He actually thought Guyville was a sell-out, that she should continue releasing more Girlysound-esque stuff instead of using a full rock band. But the difference between that situation and the one now, that I don't think listmembers like Chris & Andrea fully understand (or care about), is that it's not the *subjects* Liz writes about, or really even the slickness of the production (although, I will say, "What Makes You Happy", "Johnny Feelgood," and a few others on that record are unquestionably overproduced, and even Liz -- Satan herself -- is unhappy with the results) that some of us really hate. Maybe it's just me, but what's really disconcerting is the excessive number of musicians on WCSE; you can barely tell which guitar is Liz's. Even then, it doesn't really matter which guitar is hers because she's got other people playing the parts (rhythm, leads, bass) that she, back in the good old days, would play herself, in her own stupidly brilliant way. Most either don't understand this "technical" stuff or care either way, but it does make a BIG difference. It's not like it's Tape Hiss vs. Bells & Whistles. I certainly don't listen to much "underproduced" music anyway. The production can be slick as snails, but if you've got other people doing your work for you instrumentally, how in the hell can you praise that? I don't mind that Liz is married and has a kid and a shopping problem, etc. That's SO not the issue. What matters are the songs she makes, and just how bastardized they are when the boss decides they're finished. I don't wish Liz was still 25, writing about sex and ex-boyfriends and slacking and all that. Besides, it is possible to be the most boring person on earth and still be an imaginative songwriter if you have the talent, which Liz does. And as the precious few new Liz songs we've heard prove, domesticity does not automatically equal "mental freeze," as Kim Deal cautioned us back in *her* heyday. Now, if Liz makes good on her promise to fight with her producer more, to leave the performance mistakes in, and to make sure she can hear her own guitar next time, then I won't have so much bitching to do. Let's hope Jason "the best Phair songs I've ever heard" Morphew knows what he's talking about. One last thing before I go, I re-read the Elle article, and it struck me as just another piece, like SO many throughout her career, where the interviewer was painting the interviewee a certain way, and the interviewee gamely went along with it. If you read the articles at Sir Ken's site, you rarely see Liz disagreeing with the journalist. At each stage of her career, every article from any given time period focused on mainly one aspect of her personhood (the Rolling Stones connection, the stage fright, the Whip-smart promotion machine, the marriage, the baby...) and Liz couldn't do anything about that. Does anyone know what I mean? It's like, clearly, in 1998, all the fucking interviews were motherhood this and Lilith Fair that, and any article that was actually about THE TUNES was a rare find. The Elle piece was all about fashion and shopping and being "wild & unwise" -- it's actually kind of funny and cartoonish, like crying with her accountant. It's not that big a deal. When the next album comes out, and the only new thing in Liz's life that journalists can beat to death is her move to sunny Manhattan Beach, maybe we'll see more Q&A like this, from the newly transcribed 1993 NPR radio interview (courtesy of Ken Lee, as always): Ms. PHAIR: I don't think I'm as studied as I should be in terms of knowing, melodically, what I'm doing. You should come into the studio with us sometime. It's where I'm going right after this interview. We've been working on my second album, and the words I use to describe the sound I want are incredible, and so when I hit various notes, or my keys are strange or unusual, you go from a very standard pop hook with like the standard pop melody floating above it, and then I switch right into something a little more dissident [sic], or sort of an open chord, with a very strange tone. Ms. PHAIR: I think it's mostly because I grew up thinking about harmonies, thinking about ways in which tones interact. You know, I see them in my mind as visually, literally, like sometimes they slice through, sometimes they weave around. It's all very much about shapes and patterns. ADAMS: You don't mean you're seeing the notes on a staff? Ms. PHAIR: Not at all. ADAMS: Well what are you seeing then? Ms. PHAIR: When I'm singing "Stratford on Guy", I'm seeing through time - this gets really obtuse, I hope this isn't annoying, but I'm seeing something shooting out from me, out into the distance, like a DNA strand kind of thing. You know how they show those DNA strands and it's all a three-D model? I'm seeing models of music, and certain lines have, like, fuzz. I like to call that fuzz - I always tell Brad or Casey I want, you know, a sound to have like, a clear center but be dispersing around it's circumference, kind of like spreading out in a haze, and that means that I'm probably going to harmonize with it and use those gray tones that are not the exact tone to provide a kind of a blanket or a fuzz. This feels like an essay that I should be concluding with some sweeping, sum-it-all-up last paragraph, but I know I've overstayed my welcome, so have a nice day. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 17:04:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Easter Subject: Shall we change the subject? (Lilith Fair?) I hope this will bring an interesting topic up for discussion. I read an article in the paper this morning that introduced Jonatha Brooke and how she seemed to be at a slow moment (record sales) right now since Lilith Fair is on hiatus. One question I'd like to ask anyone who is interested.... Did Lilith Fair really have an impact on introducing new, even struggling artists to a large audience? The article even mentioned Dido and how Lilith hardly did a thing for her popularity till Roswell and Eminem came around. Another question is... If female artists were to have power on the charts again like they did during '97-'99, what would be the responsible for "bringing them back?" Napster? Movie/tv soundtracks? Another Lilith? or something else? Take care and mucho spaceeggs, Katie ();) ===== ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "So play the game 'Existence' to the end." - John Lennon ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 20:59:03 EDT From: LilRussianGirl@aol.com Subject: I'm really not a cowgirl.... Did Lilith Fair really have an impact on introducing new, even struggling artists to a large audience? I think that Lilith introduced new fans to music they would not have otherwise found. I, myself, now own two Deborah Cox CDs. And I think that Lilith is *hugely* responsible for the Dixie Chicks explosion that happened during the last tour. I know I laughed and mocked (as did the other people in line with me waiting to meet Liz at the Tower booth) as we listened to all of the people who were going wild for them at the first Lilith show I went to. We were all joking about gee, meet Liz or see the Dixie Chicks - country girls in tacky outfits....hmmmm...duh! But at the second show I went to Liz didn't do a meet and greet, and since I had 5th row seats and was tired of walking around I figured I'd stick around in my seat and see what all of the screaming was about. Their performance blew my friend and I away, and neither of us really care for country. They were entertainers and talented musicians, and put on a great show. By the end we were dancing and they left with us wishing for more. Truth is, after they played Good-bye Earl we were already sold, and we both bought all of their albums as soon as Fly came out. I *know* that neither my friend nor I ever would have done that had it not been for Lilith, and I'm willing to bet that's how a lot of other recent fans got into them, too. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:00:42 EDT From: LilRussianGirl@aol.com Subject: ps - >>If female artists were to have power on the charts again They don't? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:16:44 EDT From: RbSayre@aol.com Subject: Re: Shall we change the subject? (Lilith Fair?) In a message dated 4/22/01 8:08:02 PM Eastern Daylight Time, wcseliz@yahoo.com writes: > I read an article in the paper this morning that > introduced Jonatha Brooke and how she seemed to be at > a slow moment (record sales) right now since Lilith > Just an aside for those of you who aren't familiar with Jonatha- give a listen to her new album "Steady Pull"- it's an excellent, excellent disc. :) rick television. turkey sandwiches. let the okay times roll. let's face it kids... rick's page ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 21:56:43 EDT From: Emo5858@aol.com Subject: women in power? Actually, I don't think that women have much pull in the charts. Wait. Lemme back up a bit.... There are a few artists, such as Britney Spears, Christina Aguilera, Destiny's Child, Faith Hill, that are big sellers and have singles in the - -pop- charts today. But I don't think that the -rock- charts have many, if any, female dominators. Its all Limp Bizkit, Papa Roach, blink 182, Mudvien, etc etc etc (btw, what the HELL is up with mudvien!??! okay, just had to ask that.) I'd just like to know why not? Where have all the females gone? Why is it that everytime I turn on the radio, I have to hear the same 2 songs by 3 Doors Down, instead of some of...I dunno...The Donnas or something? Everything in pop culture nowadays is so testosterone-y. I hate it. Damn it. Okay, back into my seclusion now. anastasia "There's no need for red-hot pokers. Hell is -- other people." - No Exit, Sartre ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 22 Apr 2001 23:14:23 EDT From: PJposters@aol.com Subject: Lilith impact I know I'm forever grateful to Lilith Fair for introducing me to Holly McNarland. My best Lilith memory is of literally being transfixed to the spot by the side soundstage with hundreds of others as she tore through her setlist, then pushing along with the throng when they announced they had free EPs at Tower. She's another artist I've been seemingly waiting forever for new news on!!! I sure wish I could have seen Liz at Lilith. I can't believe it's been this long... paige- ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V4 #108 ************************************