From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V4 #7 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Monday, January 8 2001 Volume 04 : Number 007 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: selling out [Jason Long ] Re: support-system-digest V4 #6 ["cheddarcat" ] Re: support-system-digest V4 #6 [HOLEPARTS@aol.com] Question [Pocee@aol.com] Who Am I? (another long, listing of lists) [Juvenilia@aol.com] time for another tape swap? [rob ] nothing to do with liz at all ["sandra hume" ] converting to phairdom [RbSayre@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 08:43:37 -0500 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: selling out Emil wrote: >I imagine the sell-out topic makes some people groan, >I suppose because it's a "sensitive" issue for some >people, but there are many more groan-worthy topics >brought up here (especially lately), so I welcome Mike >Marlett's Matador story. I agree about the smugness on >the Matador website, and their roster is certainly >lacking in the goodness department these days, but I >always thought the Liz/matador pairing was an >infinitely cool one. I don't entirely disagree with >the Matador bunch in their belief that Liz basically >sold out. For those of you on the other side, think >about how Liz has changed since the release of >whitechocolate... Is a "professional" artist the same >thing as an engaging/interesting one? Is it worth it >to (for the most part) give up a unique guitar style >and a terrific, trademark deadpan voice in favor of a >Madonna-esque stage presence and conventional singing? For some reason, regardless of whether or not the charges have any merit, I find it ridiculous that Matador would accuse anyone of selling out. The argument can be made, despite all their independence now that they no longer have major label ties, that they themselves have sold out. Remember when electronica was being hailed as the "next big thing" and indie rock was starting to be considered by many as being passe? Didn't Matador take quite a different approach to who they were signing all of a sudden? There was a sudden emergence of electronica acts on the label, while they started dropping artists like Barbara Manning and Bettie Serveert. Also, look at all of the hip-hop acts they've acquired over the last little while -- another attempt to cash in on what's currently successful? Hmmm. Matador have signed some excellent bands and artists and released a lot of great records in the past, but at the same time, they're a bunch of hypocrites. They seem to want so badly to be part of the game, but while looking like they're not part of the system -- this even during their two brief liaisons with the majors. As for Liz, I'm torn on what to think. I have moments where I absolutely love _whitechocolate..._ for what it is, but I also have moments where I resent it for what it's not. She's still writing some excellent songs and there are still a lot of flashes of why I loved her in the first place in them, but sometimes I wish she'd start taking a less coventional approach again. Part of what was so enthralling about _Exile in Guyville_ and _Whip-Smart_ was how much unlike everyone else she was -- watering her distinctiveness down and her "anything goes" approach is akin to wiping some of that magic away. A compromised Liz Phair is still better than just about anything out there, but her music's not quite the same breath of fresh air as it was before. Still, I can't really level any sell-out charges at her. The songs she's writing right now are still as personal as anything else she's done and they seem to mean a lot to her -- she's not just writing for the sake of commerce. She's writing these songs because she needs to. Sure, maybe her lyrics seem toned down compared to in the past, but she's not the same person she was five or six years ago. Also, as a wife and mother now, she's probably a lot more conscious of what she's saying now -- as she said in some interviews at the time of _whitechocolate..._'s release, she has to consider how her husband will react to what she writes. It's easy to understand why she's not as blunt now. Also, if her lyrics seem more straightforward now and not as cryptic, I think she does want to reach more people now than before -- it's unsurprising she'd make what she's saying more accessible. I can't really blame Liz for wanting to play the game. Over the past little while, my feelings about the whole "sell out" issue have changed a lot. About a week ago, I was going through all of the albums released in 2000 that I bought and found that only a mere two of them ever cracked the top 40; meanwhile, looking at the charts week after week, I feel uninspired (to say the least) by what the masses are buying into. Ultimately, I think I want some of the artists I want to be a part of all that, and to have an effect on a large number of people. I'd rather see people listening to PJ Harvey or someone equally as inspiring rather than Britney/Christina or any of their other ultimately interchangable ilk. I think artists can sell records while maintaining their integrity (still making their music the way they want to, without pandering or dumbing down what they have to say). I think I realized this most while watching Aimee Mann finally reach a wider audience this past year. More than anyone else I can think of, Aimee's stuck to her guns and played the game her way right from the start. She still is, and it's really paid off for her. I only can hope that Liz will follow her example and not back down from record label adversity. Remember how the first version of _whitechocolate..._ was rejected, the one that so many people here think is just as good or better than the version that was released? The same thing happened with Aimee's _Bachelor No. 2_. The only difference is that Aimee walked and did everything she could to get her record out the way she originally envisioned it. Also, Sleater-Kinney released the best album of their career this past year. _All Hands on the Bad One_ was a great commentary on the current state of rock music and an album that really needed to be heard and considered. Guess what happened? The album didn't reach much beyond the already converted and went unheard by those who probably needed to hear their perspective the most. In this case, had the album sold a lot more than it did, it wouldn't have been a bad thing at all. It shouldn't be surprising that Liz wants to play the game, so I don't understand why it's coming as a shock to a lot of people. Even in the _Whip-Smart_ era, Liz was proclaiming that she wanted to reach a lot more people and in one interview that took place in 1996, she said that she wanted to make the type of album that everyone would love. I just hope she realizes that she can still be both a "professional" artist and an important one. I think Liz could fit very well into the tradition on career artists like Joni Mitchell and Elvis Costello. Both these artists may not be in the top tier of big sellers, but they do sell consistently and have done very well for themselves throughout their careers. Most of their records are relatively accessible, modestly successful commercially and well-regarded critically. I think Liz can have the best of both worlds -- why can't she combine her new stage presence and all the publicity she does with the things that make her so distinctive as an artist (her approach to playing guitar, singing and writing lyrics)? >I certainly don't want Liz and her family to starve, >but musically speaking, Liz hasn't exactly maintained >the strangeness that was so alluring to me on her >first 2 records, and that's ultimately pretty >disappointing. I would like to hear from Jason Long >regarding this matter! Sure, drag me into this, why don't you? :P Although, as it turns out, I guess I had a lot to say. I keep going back and forth on a lot of these things. This year I've seen songs by the Buzzcocks, the Breeders and my favorite new artist, Badly Drawn Boy, used in various commercials. An entire movie was based on the songs of one of my favorite songwriters. Are these bad things? I don't necessarily think so. If someone discovers Badly Drawn Boy because of the Gap ad and falls in love with his music, that's a good thing. If a television commercial is ultimately what gives someone their first exposure to my beloved Buzzcocks or the film Magnolia is the only way someone would have discovered the music of Aimee Mann, well, I'd rather that then have these artists and bands go unnoticed at all. Commercial radio and MTV are not outlets that are available to all artists. I think it's good that these unique artists still have a chance at becoming part of our culture -- the more people who hear their voices, the better. And going back to _whitechocolate..._ Even on the days where I feel a little disenchanted with it, it's not as though I'm just sniping at it because it's more polished-sounding or the writing's more conventional. I said that I was sometimes disappointed in it for what it's not, and a big part of that is the fact that it doesn't feel quite like an album the way that both _Exile_ and _Whip-Smart_ do. It doesn't have quite the same flow to it, or was given the same care in sequencing. Both of the previous records felt like were stories, and each of the songs were chapters -- _whitechocolate..._ doesn't seem as if it was given the same amount of consideration or thought into its construction. I loved that I could easily get lost in the worlds that the first two records created, but _whitechocolate..._ doesn't provide me with quite the same experience (even though, thinking about it, it contains some of her strongest songs, "Go On Ahead" being one prime example). Okay, enough rambling from me. Cheers, Jase NP: Sleater-Kinney, "Good Things" ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 11:14:39 -0500 From: "cheddarcat" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V4 #6 Well. I completely agree with these sentiments... I love Liz, she is my hero, and it's not that I really like her any less after WCSE, but, it was a disappointment to me. I do really miss her deadpan voice! I hate it when people would say things like 'well, she can't reallysing, but...' about EIG, because i think honestly her voice sounds the BEST on that one. it just sounds perfect. It isn't opera, but it isn't supposed to be! it isn't madonna-esque either, and thank god for that! she's not a crooner and that's what i loved about it--it just sounds so natural. Anyhow I am just hoping that her next record will be strange again in some way--not that it has to be like EIG or whipsmart, but i just hope there's something quirky to it. I know there were fans out there who were disappointed by Whipsmart, but i was not one of those--that was my first liz album, actually. It was really different from EIG but it was weird and strange in a whole new way. So.... anyhow. I will stop blathering now. I don't care so much about how much a record sells, I just want to really like it, and I just didn't feel that way about WCSE. just one little fan's opinings.. judy. > Is it worth it > to (for the most part) give up a unique guitar style > and a terrific, trademark deadpan voice in favor of a > Madonna-esque stage presence and conventional singing? > > > I certainly don't want Liz and her family to starve, > but musically speaking, Liz hasn't exactly maintained > the strangeness that was so alluring to me on her > first 2 records, and that's ultimately pretty > disappointing. I would like to hear from Jason Long > regarding this matter! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:42:36 EST From: HOLEPARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V4 #6 In a message dated 1/7/01 12:34:47 AM Central Standard Time, owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org writes: << and i don't like most hollywood movies for personal and political reasons. there is nothing wrong with that. :) >> there is nothing wrong with that, but im trying to say that not all hollywood movies are bad. lots are good, in my opinion. i think of myself more as a music person (whereas lots of my friends are more movie-people). i always like cliche-type movies... they dont all suck though! mike ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 16:59:12 EST From: Pocee@aol.com Subject: Question How do I transfer support-system digest to another e-mail address. Thanks Pat O'Connor ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 18:16:59 EST From: Juvenilia@aol.com Subject: Who Am I? (another long, listing of lists) 1.) Who am I? My name is Robbie and I've been on this list for a VERY LONG TIME, however I couldn't tell you exactly how long. I rarely post for a number of reasons, but occasionally I find myself compelled to come out of obscurity to voice my two cents. 2.) What other music do you listen to? Well, besides Liz, my music favorites consist of many. For people interested in exactly who.... Heather Nova, Dido, Patty Griffin, Sophie B. Hawkins, Poe, Ruby, Garbage, Portishead, Dar Williams, Modest Mouse, Ani DiFranco, Tori Amos, Nelly Furtado, Moby, They Might Be Giants, Annie Lennox, Cyndi Lauper, PJ Harvey, Paula Cole, Jude, The Beth Lisick Ordeal, Aimee Mann, Jen Trynin, Trish Murphy, Morcheeba, Olive, Travis... and well, as you can see, countless others. And while I love many male-fronted voices, my musical collection is probably 85% female. 3.) Your Top 10 albums of the 90s: 001. Heather Nova - "Oyster" 002. Liz Phair - "Exile In Guyville" 003. Liz Phair - "Whip-Smart" 004. Dido - "No Angel" 005. Aimee Mann - "I'm With Stupid" 006. Annie Lennox - "Diva" 007. Ani DiFranco - "Out Of Range" 008. Dar Williams - "Mortal City" 009. Sophie B. Hawkins - "Whaler" 010. Tori Amos - "Under The Pink" 4.) Recent discoveres: 001. Travis 002. Nelly Furtado 003. Chicane 5.) Favorite films of 2000: 001. What Lies Beneathe (Michelle Pfeiffer, Harrison Ford) Okay, I'm slightly biased being that Michelle is my favorite actress, but I was very happy with this film. When I watched it the first time, I too felt it was a bit slow at parts, but watching it a second time, I felt the slowness was almost necessary to keep the suspense going. This was truly a Michelle movie and I think she pulled it off very well. 002. X-Men (Patrick Stewart, Anna Paquin, Famke Janssen, Hugh Jackman and "Hit & Run" Halle Berry) This movie wasn't 'super great', but being a long-time fan of the comic book series, I had been anticipating this film for quite a long time. And while I felt some of casting was poor (Halle Berry), I was impressed with other choices (i.e. Rebecca Romijn-Stamos, Anna Paquin). Basically, this film could have turned out to be so much worse than it did. 003. Erin Brockovich (Julia Roberts) I never liked Julia much, but this film had me change my views of her. Although she's severly overpaid in my opinion, this film was very entertaining. 004. The Cell (Jennifer Lopez, Vince Vaughn, Vincent D'Onofrio) Very wicked film with beautiful imagery. That alone made me interested. 005. Chicken Run (voiced by Mel Gibson and others) While on a plane back to NY, this film was showing. Bored, I went ahead and watched it and was surprised at how much I enjoyed it. I have so much more respect for chickens now. ::smiles:: Okay, I think I'm done with this list thing. On another note, I recently moved to NY (about three months ago) and am having a hard time adjusting. Anyone in the Southern Westchester County/NYC area who could guide me to where the best places are to go when you're bored and know not a soul? Sometimes, Robbie "There is no devil's haircut in my mind. There is no wonderwall for me to climb." --TRAVIS ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 07 Jan 2001 18:30:49 -0600 From: rob Subject: time for another tape swap? Hi everyone, I've been a mostly a lurker on this list so far, but i figured it was finally time to post something. I know that there was a mix tape swap organized a while back (by Jase maybe?) and I was wondering if anyone would be interested in doing another swap sometime soon. Introducing others to music one likes seems to be a fitting way to start the year after all. Let my know what you all think. later, - -Rob - ----------------------------------------------------- Click here for Free Video!! http://www.gohip.com/free_video/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 7 Jan 2001 21:59:08 -0600 From: "sandra hume" Subject: nothing to do with liz at all Jason wrote: > I was surprised to see Slobberbone on your list. I'm from Fort Worth, and I > thought they were a local band. I have a small connection to them -- one of > the band members' dads works at the same place I do. You'd never guess he > had a son in a band, much less in one with a name like Slobberbone. Pretty > cool. which band member? the cute guitar player, the shaggy singer, the tall wiry bass player, or the drummer? = ) i *heart* slobberbone. they are so much fun, and rock better than a lot of bands i've seen these days. they do have quite a following outside of fort worth ... small but rabid. i've actually only seen them live once, though, and that was in boston. sandra ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2001 01:03:19 EST From: RbSayre@aol.com Subject: converting to phairdom ok so someone wrote that we should try & convert people to liz fans... oddly enough... tonight after the store closed, i played whitechocolatespaceegg & wouldn't ya know it- my manager liked it! :) um. ok. 'bye rick truth is hard & tough as nails that's why we need fairy tales i'm all through with logical conclusions why should i deny myself illusions? -friedrich hollaender rick's web home ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V4 #7 **********************************