From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #203 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Monday, July 31 2000 Volume 03 : Number 203 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Late Musings [Jason Long ] posting [Craig King ] my views on napster ["christine m." ] bf5 [BeeFly27@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V3 #202 [NOSAWYER@vassar.edu] [none] [Jaimee Kudrle ] me again ["Dana Polachowski" ] firewalker ["sam" ] More Fractured Thoughts [Rocko116@aol.com] Re: me again [HOLEPARTS@aol.com] Re: More Fractured Thoughts [AWeiss4338@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 02:12:02 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: Late Musings Bill in CT wrote: >Congratulations to Jason also for not involving himself in the Joni Mitchell >knocks. Its a senseless fight. There are people in the world who hate the >Beatles too, big deal. Well, honestly, I've been meaning to put in a few words in Joni's favor, being a huge fan of hers, but at the same time, I can understand why some people might not like her. Of all of the artists I like, she seems to attract the most extreme reactions in either direction from my friends. I am glad to see that the people here who dislike her music still seem to respect her talent. I do think she's a pioneer in many ways, and she has been incredibly influential to many of the artists who get discussed on the list a lot (Tori Amos and Sarah McLachlan have both been known to cover her songs live, and even Courtney Love has sang Joni's praises in the press). I think one of the greatest things about Joni Mitchell is that she's always followed her heart musically, not being afraid to put together projects that might alienate some of her audience. At the height of her commercial success with albums like _Court and Spark_, she started experimenting in jazz and world beat on the albums that followed, finally colloborating with Charles Mingus before his death. She also dabbled in synth-pop and worked with Thomas Dolby in the mid-'80s. And for someone who's been highly regarded as a songwriter throughout her career, earlier this year, she released an album where she covers eight standards, as well as two of her best-known songs, backed by an orchestra. I love that she always does whatever she feels like. That said, I can understand some of the complaints about Joni's voice that people have made. I'm not as big of a fan of her soprano on the early, folkier albums like _Ladies of the Canyon_, which tends to also be her best-known material. I'm more of a fan of her vocals from the middle period of her career forward, once her voice started to deepen as a result of her smoking habit. She may not have as great of a range as she once had, but her voice is a lot more nuanced now and she's gotten much better at phrasing. I think it's perhaps best to regard Joni foremost as a songwriter, as much of her reputation is based on that. In that respect, she's much like Dylan - -- not all of her albums have been consistent, although they almost all have a few gems, and not everyone's going to have an easy time with her voice, but her writing is almost always exceptional and she's a particularly strong lyricist. >In my book there is no such thing as good music and >bad. There's music I like and music I don't. Everything, including so called >"talent" is subjective. Is classical music superior to rock, because there >are more talented instrumentlists? Not necessarily at all. I like people that >are passionate about music, such as many on this list, even if I don't always >agree. I wish people would talk more about what they like instead of what >they don't. I really like this philosophy. I don't have a problem per se with people offering constructive criticism of or their observations on an artist's work, but I've never seen the point of going out of one's way to bash an artist or band they don't like. There's a lot of music that doesn't do much for me, but I'd rather talk about the Jen Trynins and the Aimee Manns and the Sleater-Kinneys -- those who absolutely amaze me. >P.S. Did we ever hear the end of Jason's 98 meeting with LIz? or KB's review >of the Jen Trynin film. Did I miss it long ago? I didn't really formally finish my story, but I did throw details of it into a few of the posts I've made since then. I've pretty much covered all of the really noteworthy details, although I do wish that I'd actually finished it off properly. I just got really busy and kept putting it off, until so much time had passed that I figured either no one would still be interested or people would have already forgotten the first parts. Maybe I still will finish it off the right way at some point. I still can't get over both my extreme good fortune in Toronto and the amazing experience those of us who were at the Lounge Ax show had. It's weird, but I seem to have a trail of good luck following me at almost every show I've been at over the last little while. But without a doubt, the most memorable experiences I've had have been at Liz shows -- and not just meeting Liz herself, but also meeting the other members of this list. That's why I feel really bad about missing Liz Phest this year. I had really wanted to go, but to borrow an Aimee Mann-ism, "Timing is everything..." This year it just wasn't feasible for me, but if everyone does plan on doing something again next year, I will do whatever I can to be there. It sounds like you all had a really incredible time and I really wish that I'd have been able to have been a part of it. Has there been any talk yet of doing something next year? I don't remember KB posting a review of the Jen Trynin film and that's something I'm definitely interested in well. I keep hoping it'll turn up on cable or video, but I haven't seen anything yet. If I remember correctly, its name was Payoff. Also, one last thing (for this post, anyway), in Paige's most recent poll, one of the questions was "What Liz CD have you listened to most recently?" When I first responded, I guess I was reading too quickly, because I saw it as "What Liz CD have you listened to the most, recently?" Just wanted to explain, in case the wording of my response seemed odd. The answer is still the same though: _Whip-Smart_. Cheers, Jase ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 07:16:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: posting >>To the guy who said he can always tell if it's Craig's post, I had to laugh. I feel the same way. As with Katie. Just as I know when someone disses Stone Temple Pilots, I can already see your reply in my head. Fight the good fight, Craig!<< Haha. What can I say? I've grew up listening to STP, and they have meant more to me in my life than even Liz. Besides I feel the same way knowing when others will post. I know I can always count on seeing a rebuttle from Jase when someone disses Aimee Mann. ;) I guess we're all passionate about our favorite artists. Some more than others I guess, myself included. To each his own. Craig "We'll be back to save rock and roll, because the way it's looking right now it definately needs it." - Scott Weiland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 09:55:14 CDT From: "christine m." Subject: my views on napster when i found out about napster, not too too long ago, it was a godsend to me. i had no roommate in college, and also no radio. my CD player said bye-bye. so rather than forking out $$$ that i didnt have for a new radio, i just downloaded a bunch of my favorite songs, which i had on CD already anyway, plus a song or 2 from new artists that i have not heard from but have heard everyone on the list talk about. as for ben folds five and the "give me my sweater back" song. i liked it. i really did. but i had lumped bff along with matchbox 20 and dmb in the category of 'my sister's music'. as if we didnt have enough to argue about, music is a big one. so this is the first time im actually admitting that out loud..or whatever. good thing is....ive got my brother listening to the good stuff. not quite liz yet, cause he is only 11 and a few songs are too much. he said " Did she just say..." covers mouth with hand and laughed. anyone else into harry potter? i bought one for my brother and bought the next 3 within a month. they are really good books. now i must go and worship satan...just kidding! christine ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 13:37:51 EDT From: BeeFly27@aol.com Subject: bf5 can i just say them being influenced by liz just makes them that much cooler. i love that band. kim np:narcolepsy by bf5 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 14:10:04 -0500 (EST) From: NOSAWYER@vassar.edu Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #202 hi, could you take me off of the list p lease. thanks Noah ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 15:20:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Jaimee Kudrle Subject: [none] I am pretty sick of hearing about Napster too, although I'd like to say a couple things. THere is an interesting article by none other than Courtney Love on the issue at: http://www.salon.com/tech/feature/2000/06/14/love/ that is actually a speech given at a digital conference... Whats funny about napster is that people have been trading mp3's for a long time, way before napster. And the RIAA has created it's own nightmare by giving napster such huge publicity I swear I am surprised my grandma doesn't use it. And people will continue to do it, with ftp programs such as CuteFTP. There will be tons of programs just like napster if it is shut down, in fact there already are. People are sharing movies that are in theatres, and even movies that aren't even in theatres yet (example: hollow man). This isn't a problem that's ever going to go away. I'd like to see people get as worked up about this as seeing kiddie porn on the internet. That's fucking illegal, isn't it? And you know lots of people are gettin that without paying. anyway, Jaimee - ----------------------------------------------- FREE! The World's Best Email Address @email.com Reserve your name now at http://www.email.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 12:24:19 -0700 From: "Dana Polachowski" Subject: me again > think Liz Phair -- this IS Liz Phair we're talking > about, not Diane Warren HAHAAHAHAhahahaaaa.... bee-yoo-ti-ful! unfortunately, i've never heard the actual song, so i can't comment any further, but this is totally funny.... hahahaaaa.... also, like shelly, i have *really* gotten in to STP lately--didn't really quite understand that i've like them all along. i've got almost everything now--yay BMG bonus points!!! i think scott weiland is a *great* writer/singer; i'm really happy for him--he kicked his habit, he just got married, and has a baby on the way. he's in the zone. plus, at a recent show he performed in drag so that gwen stafani wouldn't feel so alone.... LOVE HIM! "fuckwittage"; i am writing this down--dig it!! i'm in a really good mood--love is all around (tossing up my colorful crocheted beanie hat at this point...) dp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 20:15:22 -0400 From: "sam" Subject: firewalker "But I can grow. Despite all you know. You might not recognize me Tomorrow. And I can change Despite all they say Become something strange And beautiful ... Like joy." Is anyone else going to come out in defense of these very lines? "Trite"???? Gosh, they're so simple they're brilliant. In my experience and observation, one of the most common problems to occur in long-term relationships is people aren't given room to grow. Here's what I think the our mighty little liz is saying with this-here chorus: "I can learn. You may not think I can, cause we're adults and all, but I can see my mistakes just as clearly as you can, and I'm aware of the ways that I tend to act sometimes that aren't so great. You know me really well, and you know my flaws, so it's probably hard for you to see me capable of changing. But I can improve upon myself, and not only can I, I WANT to. Don't think I can't change, and can't grow, and can't learn from everything that's going on, all right? I could be a different person tomorrow, and you know what, I hope I am. And I hope I surprise not just you, but eveyone else who knows me or thinks they know me. And another thing: with growth and change like the kind I'm talking about, you know as well as I do, that you'll only love me more. I'll be happier, and we'll be better for it. So shut up already." (backed up by "do i recognize my actions? I act like I'm so unaware. But I don't care ... because I CAN GROW ...") OK, so just *maybe* I'm inflicting some of my personal life into those lines. But what are songs for, if not to allow us that? ; ) Emil asks if he's alone with his feelings, and my guess is no. Even Jase said the lyrics weren't that strong in the chorus, even though he liked the lyrics overall. He *is* right about the "defiant vibe" in the song. She's defiant, Liz is. All the way through the damn chorus. I'm quite prepared for no one to agree with me, but I've been on my own in my Divorce Song interpretation, too. Glad to be involved, even to debate, sandra ps: Jase, how many times have you moved apartments? This is the second time in just a few months, isn't it? my sympathies .... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 22:33:42 EDT From: Rocko116@aol.com Subject: More Fractured Thoughts First off let me get my annual tennis discussion out of the way. Pete Sampras only has a great serve and is NOT a "pure" tennis player? Have you been dipping into Ms. Phair's Mexican stash. If you don't like him, there is nothing I can do about that. I guess he's not "colorful" enough,(ie Throwing tantrums, swearing at refs like McEnroe, Connor's, early Agassi) for you. He doesn't smile and has kind of a hang dog look to him. To each his own. But not a pure tennis player? Get real. This is a guy at 16, who overhauled his entire game(he was baseliner), to play an all around game like his hero Rod Laver. Pete's the BEST serve and volleyer in the game! Great at the net. Very good on the baseline, passing shots and yes, a great serve. Although there are better serves(Philliphous, etc), nobody matches his completeness as a player. Rafter is very good all around when healthy, but still not as good. We will have to continue this next year. And to whoever asked of Jon Spencer, this is great rock and roll band. Fantastic in concert. Jon Spencer has got the rock star thing( ala Scott Weiland) down pat. Changes clothes like 4 times a concert. Great clothes. Wild on stage. Plays on his back. Jumping off speaker stacks like 8 feet high. Superb performer, check them out by all means. Now I Got Worry, Orange, and Acme are all excellent discs. Have you ever seen the video for Talk About the Blues? Winona Ryder plays Job Spencer. She looks uncannily like him. By the way when I saw Aimee Mann recently, I hung around for awhile after the show, to see if I could talk to Buddy Judge about Liz's new album. Alas no luck. Never saw him. As I was waiting, I realized between seeing Liz and Aimee, I've seen Buddy Judge 13 times. Wow! I never thought of it. BTW did anyone go to the free(I believe) Aimee concert at City Hall in Boston on 7/29? Some last thoughts on Throwing Muses. There is supposed to be another concert or 2. They were talking of the West coast though. I will let you know if I hear anything. Did anyone realize the guy checking off the Virtuous guests at the door was Kristin's husband, Billy O'Connell? I'll leave with my fantasy baseball team having moved into 1st place. Team name: Phair Territory, after winning $1200 last year with the natural, Throwing Muses. Signing off. Bill in CT(who believes it will be an act of God if LP releases something before 2001) NP: Lush - Split BTW: JSBX is on Matador, and Pavement still is? I thought you liked them Jason. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 00:25:25 EDT From: HOLEPARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: me again In a message dated 7/30/00 2:34:19 PM Central Daylight Time, dpolachowski@mindspring.com writes: << also, like shelly, i have *really* gotten in to STP lately--didn't really quite understand that i've like them all along. i've got almost everything now--yay BMG bonus points!!! i think scott weiland is a *great* writer/singer; i'm really happy for him--he kicked his habit, he just got married, and has a baby on the way. he's in the zone. plus, at a recent show he performed in drag so that gwen stafani wouldn't feel so alone.... LOVE HIM! >> im gonna see STP this WEDNESDAY!!! i am so excited. this wil lbe the second time that i have seen the chilli's but the first time im gonna see STP. STP is my favorite band right behind HOLE and NIRVANA. the thing about STP is that they really, really care about their music. i havent come across one "filler" song on any of their albums. they sound like they all come from the heart, and they are all so good! usually on albums (except for hole albums) there is at least one song that i dont think is good, but not with STP. for those of you that arent into them, consider buying their albums. they are awesome. also pick up Scott Weilands solo album "12 bar blues". it took me a while to get into it, but once i was, i was addicted. it was really good and yett VERY different than what we are used to hearing in STP. Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 31 Jul 2000 01:09:24 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: More Fractured Thoughts No bragging here just the account. I went to the Boston Aimee Mann show, which was free, and the Springfield show, also in MA the night before. I'd gone up with a bunch of folks from Aimee's list, with one guy who knows her well. Both shows were great, and at the Springfield show, we got to go out for drinks with John Sands, the drummer for her band. Boston: City Hall Plaza is huge, I didn't realize how big it was until I got there, hardly ever going to Boston. Aimee was better that night, even though a lot of the same songs were performed both nights, a collection from all of her solo albums, the Magnolia soundtrack, and a couple of Til Tuesday songs. I totally forgot to mention this, but I met Buddy Judge after the show, nice guy. He's got an album coming out of his songs, I'll post to the list when I get more info, he'll be posting the info on Aimee's list. The band is called the Buddy System. But I didn't talk to him about Liz, that's what I forgot. I got to meet Aimee too, twice, once each night. She signed my B#2 album and Magnolia, was very sweet, and my friends and I managed to get a group photo with her. Pictures will soon be up at drivingsideways.com, a Aimee fan site that I recomend, very good stuff. And all in one weekend this happened. Andrea ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #203 ************************************