From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #202 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Sunday, July 30 2000 Volume 03 : Number 202 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Liz Phair:Giggly School Girl Extraordinaire ["Michael Worrell" ] ssd #200... ["Shelly" ] artists aren't losing as much as you think [raymond lew ] Firewalker: It's a fuckin' war, man! [Emil Breton ] Firewalker site [Craig King ] randomness ["Dana Polachowski" ] OT: Sleater-Kinney/tape swap/etc. [Jason Long ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Late Musings [Rocko116@aol.com] Random stuff [Jason Long ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 01:20:24 -0400 From: "Michael Worrell" Subject: Re: Liz Phair:Giggly School Girl Extraordinaire Previously, on support-system-digest: Emil Breton wrote: >Sampras really IS hard to like. It doesn't help that he's not much of a pure tennis player---he's all serve and a little bit of other things. He whines, to boot. I was totally for Patrick Rafter recently, especially after watching Rafter fall, get up, and _still_ return a Sampras shot at Wimbledon. Of course, you could also do like me and sneeringly cheer for Patrick McEnroe of the New York Hamptons. Doesn't hurt that he works for Imus, either. >But WHY are some people here lumping Aimee Mann and >Sarah Mac together? I don't get how anyone could just >flat-out dislike Aimee Mann. I also don't understand >how everyone could have a fit over an Aimee mann >thread and then not even notice the daily (and >unnecessary) Nina Gordon updates we got earlier this >summer. I just don't understand the situation. Emil, I think we've had this discussion before. Although I like Aimee Mann, she can be rather damned depressing, and her voice takes some getting used to, just like the voice of one Elizabeth Clark Phair. I think (this is just my quickly-determined notion) that someone who's not necessarily familiar with Mann's catalog and particular razor-wit lyrical content, it is entirely possible that they sound alike to the non-Mann fan. Aimee Mann's hard to like, if the listener's anyone like me. I /still/ don't like "I'm With Stupid". For what it's worth, all those "unnecessary" Nina Gordon threads got me to go and buy the album; once I decided I didn't want Nina Gordon dying horribly in a crash [1], I was glad that the SSD population kept yammering on about her album. I think it's good, although I daresay we'd disagree here. And even though you'd heckle me for it, I still like Sarah McLachlan. Narf. At any rate, I'm glad she's got that talent deep-down within. Although, I find it plausible she indeed did like someone on here mentioned and sampled the Mexican green before this interview. Alternatively, she could have just been fucking with the guy---this is, after all, Elizabeth Clark Phair who bullshitted the world in her Matador biography. Isn't it grand that Napster survives, if even for a short while? I found a good version of 'Fuck and Run' live. Just wish ECP'd come somewhere closer than six hours... Michael [1] (Tasteless modification of a Denis Leary line removed after thinking carefully about it.) "You think you know what I'm doing, so obviously you don't."---Aeon Flux ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 05:49:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Easter Subject: Firewalker site, Napster Anastasia asked: Anyone know what happened to the Firewalker page, which used to be phair territory (http://phairterritory.freeservers.com)? It had a really nice design and was marvelous...I miss it :( OMG....It's Craig King's site. Never noticed it until you mentioned it. It might have something to do with the fact his PC's down? I dunno, we'll have to wait and see what he has to say. What's wrong Craig? :( As for my opinion about Napster. I'm glad it's been shut down for the reason that people can download a whole entire album and then turn around and burn it onto a cd for themselves. Don't think that I'm against it or anything...I thought it's nice how people can download rare, live songs or just to get a sample of an artist. I think it was wrong how some people took advantage of the system, instead of shelling out $15 to support an artist they like. I can't understand why I have some of my friends who think I'm totally anti-Napster. Heck...I wouldn't even lend my brother my Luscious Jackson cds cuz I knew he'd burn them onto a cd. But anyways..those are my opinions about this. A big wave to KB. How's the new apartment? :) Katie ();) ===== ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Everybody's talkin' 'bout the new sound Funny, but it's still rock and roll to me." - Billy Joel __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 08:24:18 -0700 From: "Shelly" Subject: ssd #200... Wow...pumped up & ready to go! I pulled Whip Smart out & stuck it in the car player, so now I'm back on a roll! Just quick comments, 'cause I haven't even been paying attention that well lately! (Yeah, yeah, just put it on there with "Talks too much" & "Wastes Class Time")... And Valerie wrote: "shelly, i totally owe you a real email from months ago...pardon my slack!" Gawd, is that for me? *chuckle* Metallica...I'm sort of in the same boat as you, Valerie. I used to really dig them, but now it's just like, "Oh another Metallica song..." Funny side note: Hubby & I were out on our very first date together (mind you, this was over 8 years ago...). We were supposed to go to a hockey game, but when we got there, it was completely sold out (which doesn't happen that often here). We ended up going over to the Planetarium to watch a Laser Light show. It was Metallica, shortly after the Black album came out. I remember thinking, "Okay, this is cool...but man, my ears are ringing, I must be getting old!" *laugh* They had the sound up way too loud for my taste... And STP...They're playing on pay-per-view free this weekend. I hope to catch it, I've really been digging on their stuff lately. Actually, I realized I've always liked them, just wasn't really aware that it was them! I'm looking forward to watching! On the current playlist at my house... I dunno. I've barely had time lately to even change CD's. So, that may be why I'm still listening to the same stuff I was 3 months ago! ~gunshy~ Shelly "Try hard, everyday, to be as good a person that your dog thinks you are..." ~Anonymous ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 08:42:14 -0700 (PDT) From: raymond lew Subject: artists aren't losing as much as you think just a minor point about the napster thing... alot of industry people/artists are making claims like, "we're losing all this money b/c 500,000 people downloaded this song and so we've lost 5 million bucks in revenue and now i can't feed my kids or write music or go to the bathroom." please. do these guys really think that all 500,000 people would have bought the entire album for one song? i've got a couple random mp3s of petula clark, house of pain, etc., but if i didn't have them, i wouldn't run out and buy one of their cds. you could also take it to the extreme and say, "well you heard so-and-so's song on the radio but artists are losing money because you're not buying their cd so all they get are royalties." or something like that. well, that's my take on the situation. napster's back up anyways. ...ray **************************************************************************** "Don't pretend you know me, 'cause I don't even know myself." --The Who the writings on the wall >> www-scf.usc.edu/~rlew beginning to see the light >> www-scf.usc.edu/~rlew/liz_phair **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 08:44:18 -0700 (PDT) From: Emil Breton Subject: Firewalker: It's a fuckin' war, man! Hi there, I wanna clarify a few things I wrote in my post about "Firewalker." I DID like that song. I still do, actually. The verse melody is great. It rocks. I like the word 'firewalker'. And as Sandra said, it is clever... some of the time. That's where we disagree. Really, the only thing I don't like is the chorus lyric. It really does seem trite to me. I have no problem with the overall message of the song, I just think Liz Phair -- this IS Liz Phair we're talking about, not Diane Warren -- could've come up with a more interesting way of saying "I can grow, despite all you know." This is the giggly school girl who came up with such great phrases as "suspicious stains in the sink," "lifting me into prop position," "closed my eyes and my bank account," and so on. The chorus from "Firewalker" could've been written by anyone; there's nothing really Phairian about it. I was surprised that no one ever brought it up. Am I really alone here? And, no, it doesn't mean you're missing something if you happen to like it. I suppose I'm missing something, but this is just what I think and why I think that way. Actually, I'd rather discuss the delightfully crooked "Bouncers' Conversation," with which I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever. In other slightly offensive news, SPIN (the evil print version, not to be confused with the knockout, Liz-friendly online version) has an article about "The Indie City" (Chicago!). Liz gets a brief mention, along with our old friends Brad Wood, Casey Rice, and perennial favorite Steve Albini. And there is a shot of the Rainbo Club, where Exile's cover photo was taken. See a booth where Liz Phair MAY have sat and asked the bold question "What's the coolest indie?"! The article basically extols the virtues of the culturally rich and remarkably affordable town. Walk, don't run, to the nearest newsstand to check it out. Emil __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:51:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: Firewalker site >>Anyone know what happened to the Firewalker page, which used to be phair territory (http://phairterritory.freeservers.com)? It had a really nice design and was marvelous...I miss it :( That was actually my site. Thanks for the compliments!!!! I just took it down for awhile. I haven't updated it in awhile, and I just got tired of managing it. Plus, I was tired of paying the monthly fee to keep it running. I'm trying to cut costs wherever I can since I'll be moving next year. I may bring it back up when Liz's new album comes out, but I'm not sure yet. I'll post if I do. Craig NP: a commercial on the radio ;) "We'll be back to save rock and roll, because the way it's looking right now it definately needs it." - Scott Weiland __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 09:56:18 -0700 From: "Dana Polachowski" Subject: randomness LOVE that "charm attack" song by leona (sp?).... in fact, i think it made me spend more money at express when i heard it on their system.... isn't the deal with napster that you have to pay for the downloads? (why do i think this?) so i guess then it would be about them profiting without paying royalties. i think the problem is that there's money involved because aren't there other music-download sites that don't charge at all, like mp3? i'm fuzzy on this... hey, i just got the debut CD by ON called "shifting skin." i've played it several hundred times already--my neighbors hate me. is anyone else into this? i think it's fantastic. i found out ken andrews was in failure and i've never heard any of their stuff; at least i don't think so.... i guess he also just finished producing annetenna, which is anne previn's new project (is ednaswap dead now?). this guy's got it goin' on, i swear! check it out now. i heard their live shows are great too, so i think i'm gonna see 'em at the del mar racetrack on sept. 1. i wish they'd play a club in town. anyone know if this will happen? you can totally tell with BFFs "song for the dumped" that it's "embarrassingly" influenced by liz. hahahaha.... not that there's *anything* wrong with that, of course. hey, do we have any updates on "my new album"? anyone? anyone? dp ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 17:17:54 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: OT: Sleater-Kinney/tape swap/etc. Hey everyone, I was just wondering if anyone will be going to the Sleater-Kinney show at the Opera Housse in Toronto on September 19? If so, and you'd like to meet up, let me know -- I'll definitely be attending, even if it means calling in sick at work if they won't give me the night off. I'm in the process of moving to my new apartment this weekend, and my phone line at the new place won't be connected until the end of the week (I'm really loathing Bell Canada at the moment). I may be able to check e-mail a couple of times from work or at a friend's place between now and then, but I probably won't be able to post anything about the tape swap until I can get online at home. I still have a few e-mails to respond to with questions about the swap, but I'll see if I can do those from work at least. I will post all of the finalized details (such as who everyone who signed up will be making a mix for) next weekend likely. Also, it's good to see so many discussions taking place right now, after the list being rather quiet for a while there. There's a lot of threads I'd like to respond to right now, but alas, it'll have to wait. Glad to see the list so active again, though. Now all we need is a Liz update or two.... Cheers, Jase ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 20:28:22 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: Jennifer K Luu Subject: Blake Babies Show I read that Ben Lee and Evan Dando are opening up for the freakin' BLAKE BABIES at some show in Alabama. Does anyone know why it's only this one show that's going to be so amazing.....or are there more?? And why Alabama? ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 29 Jul 2000 23:07:53 EDT From: Rocko116@aol.com Subject: Late Musings Just caught up with the last weeks digest, so sorry if this after the fact. Glad to see those who caught the Throwing Muses reunion enjoyed themselves. Great show ,although was it just me or did the sound suck. I've seen them before and it sounded alot cleaner? Also I would remiss if I didn't correct Ruthie as a loyal TM fanatic. They actually played 3 songs off Limbo(The Field, Shark, Limbo), sadly no Tar Kissers or the appropo Ruthie's Knocking. And you said they played Red Becomes You? I'm guessing you meant Red Shoes, although they didn't play this? Oh well. Lastly it was widely known from the TM site that Tanya Donnely was also playing. She played the same songs as from Gut Pageant 2000(their name, not mine). Her singing on Not Too Soon was dead on with record. Sent chills down my spine! Especially when I'm sure they had minimal practice time. Lastly to those who are wondering where to start with TM, my advice is this. Their earlier stuff has alot of wierd time signatures, key changes and such. They will just change directions in the middle of the song. They played a great rendition of Vicky's Box from theit 1st album. It goes from this Sonic Youth kind of swirling noise, and just bursts into this great riff out of nowhere. Kristin seem like she was channeling Frank Black thru her voice. Truly great stuff. In the middle years(Real Ramona, Hunkpapa) Tanya Donnelly takes more of a role in the songwriting, leaded to somewhat "poppier sound". After Tanya left they evolved into a more commercial sound. ie more normal sounded verse chorus, verse. Sort of a punk, power pop thing. All very, very good. Check it out! Congratulations to Jason also for not involving himself in the Joni Mitchell knocks. Its a senseless fight. There are people in the world who hate the Beatles too, big deal. In my book there is no such thing as good music and bad. There's music I like and music I don't. Everything, including so called "talent" is subjective. Is classical music superior to rock, because there are more talented instrumentlists? Not necessarily at all. I like people that are passionate about music, such as many on this list, even if I don't always agree. I wish people would talk more about what they like instead of what they don't. To the guy who said he can always tell if it's Craig's post, I had to laugh. I feel the same way. As with Katie. Just as I know when someone disses Stone Temple Pilots, I can already see your reply in my head. Fight the good fight, Craig! Later, Bill in CT P.S. Did we ever hear the end of Jason's 98 meeting with LIz? or KB's review of the Jen Trynin film. Did I miss it long ago? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 30 Jul 2000 01:03:54 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Random stuff I'm still at the old place right now, and it's too hot to sleep, so I just thought I'd throw in my two cents on various topics that have been discussed lately. First of all, I'm glad to see that there are quite a few fans of Throwing Muses on here. I first got into Kristin Hersh's music after purchasing _Sky Motel_ when it was released. Ruthie kept talking about how great Kristin was, which was all the encouragement I needed -- we tend to like a lot of the same music, and I take her opinions very seriously. I was floored by how great the album was and worked backwards in getting the rest of her solo albums. Finally, I started checking out the Muses stuff -- so far I only have _The Real Ramona_ and _University_, both of which I think are phenomenal. I'm working away at getting the rest; I have a couple on order right now. For those who like the Muses, Steve has started a list dedicated to both Kristin Hersh and Tanya Donelly. If you're interested, you can find out more by going to and doing a search for "SwooningLoons." There's at least one other Support-Systemer over there, and it would be great to see a few more. (Hope you don't mind the plug, Steve.) As for "Firewalker," I initially had some reservations about the chorus lyrics. It seemed like a glaring flaw in an otherwise brilliant song. When I first heard the "I can grow, despite all you know" line, it seemed like a far too obvious lyric, especially after the great set-up of the first verse. It felt like the kind of line that would have been written by a stereotypical all-too-earnest singer/songwriter type, not the woman who starts choruses with lines like "'Cause you're a human supernova," or "I kept standing six-feet-one" or "Do you wanna be a polyester bride?" But, you know, the more I listen to it, the less it bothers me. The overall spirit of the song is very much Phair-like to me; there's a defiant vibe to it that you can trace back through much of Liz's catalog, right to some of the _Girly Sound_ and _Guyville_ material. Also, her choice of metaphors during the verses are some of the best she's come up with in a while. Besides, lyrics aren't everything -- I always thought "Don't Apologize" was a little light in that department (or more precisely, the lyrics that are there are good, but somewhat repetitive), but that doesn't stop it from being an absolute killer song. Since the Napster debate has been taking place on nearly every list I'm on and has been a topic of discussion among my friends and at work this past week, I'm getting a little bit tired of the whole thing. That said, I'm still not sure exactly where I stand on it. I can see how it does have some benefits, such as allowing users to download material that is either rare or out-of-print by the artists they like. I have no problem with people obtaining music that isn't commerically available by any means possible; the artist really doesn't stand to lose anything in that scenario. I also have no problem with people who use Napster as a way of previewing music that they would not otherwise hear, as long as they intend to purchase the music that they did in fact like, rather then just keep the mp3 files on their hard drive or burn a CD-R. This is actually of great benefit to artists who don't gain exposure through traditional outlets (radio and video play, etc.). Most people aren't willing to just go out and purchase a CD based on word-of-mouth or a good review; they want to be able to actually hear some of the music first. I think the one danger with Napster comes from people who use it as a way of obtaining music, rather than purchasing it. For example, this one girl I work with has heard me rave a lot about Aimee Mann, so she decided she wanted to hear some of her material. She downloaded two songs, which she liked, then set about downloading more. She now has 40 Aimee Mann MP3s on her hard drive and she has stated that she loves the music, but has no intentions of actually buying any of her CDs. That's the danger that software like Napster brings with it. I was on an IRC channel the other night -- as was fellow list member Steve - -- and the whole thing about Napster being shut down was the major topic of discussion. The prevailing attitude among most was that they shouldn't have to pay for music and how dare the RIAA shut Napster down. They seemed to think they should get all their music for free and that the major labels were greedy and had enough money anyway, so what does it matter? They don't seem to realize that artists don't get paid royalties on sales that have been lost and that music is how they make their livelyhood -- it's not merely a hobby. The other thing that annoys me is how most people believe that once an artist has been signed, they automatically have it made and that most bands make a killing from touring. As all of us on the list know by the many articles and links that have been posted here, that is hardly the case. The rich rock stars are few and far between. As for the petition by Napster users threatening to boycott the RIAA by not buying RIAA-funder-released music, to quote a post from the Loud Family list earlier today, "Talk about pouting! 'You've taken away my access to your music for free, so now I won't buy any music from you.'" What fuckwittage! I guess we'll see what happens with this case, though. As it stands, I don't want to make any predictions just yet. More later, Jase ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #202 ************************************