From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #179 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, July 4 2000 Volume 03 : Number 179 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Bounced message [Jason Long ] Brad Wood article [Jason Long ] Brad Wood/Verbow [Jason Long ] Re: technical liz question [Emil Breton ] riding around with liz [Headache79@aol.com] =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A1pop!?= [Emo5858@aol.com] Happy 4th! ["Jason Long" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 03:37:51 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "Katie Roper" Subject: naptser.com sorry this email is going to bounce.....i'm sending it from my school's forwarded address. since today's single post was about downloading mp3's, i thought i would add some interesting info: steven parker, founder of napster.com, is a graduate of my high school. i went to school with him for two years but i didn't recognize his picture.......the local paper wrote a story about him last week. he graduated in '98, which makes him only 20!! after working for the internet company, UUNet in HS, and sharing ideas through irc with another kid, the two of them moved out to silicon valley and the rest is history. napster.com........wow. chantilly high school graduate.....i am so proud. :D - -katie ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 04:19:10 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Brad Wood article Hey everyone, After searching for a while on the ATN site (their search function wasn't working, so I started going through all their back issues), I managed to find the article about Brad Wood that I had mentioned in my last post. The details about "Fuck and Run" are different than what I'd remembered, which makes me wonder if I've mixed up this article with another that I'd read elsewhere, but there is a mention of the song in the piece, along with several comments from Brad about working with Liz. The article is from July 1995, and can be found at . I've also decided to post it here, for those who may only have access to e-mail and not the Web. Rather than just post the Liz-relevant portions, I've decided to post the entire thing -- Veruca Salt and Ben Lee are both mentioned numerous times, and I know there's a lot of fans of both on this list. Plus it's just a damn good read, anyway. Hope everyone enjoys it! Cheers, Jase - ------------ Rising Up From the Underground Talkin' with Brad Wood, the producer of Liz Phair, Veruca Salt and Ben Lee By Gil Kaufman Chicago, Illinois Some people collect cars or property, but Brad Wood, Uber-producer of the moment, collects microphones. The man who has chaired the board for both of Liz Phair's albums (Exile In Guyville and Whip-smart), Veruca Salt's breakthrough effort (American Thighs) and the excellent debut albums from both 16-year-old Australian rocker Ben Lee and Champaign, Illinois' Menthol (Menthol), takes a perverse joy in showing off the forest of thirty or so microphones he has amassed, from the lowest of low-tech old-school types to the sleekest up-to-the-minute digital ones. As the lanky, T-shirt-and-jeans outfitted impresario weaves his way through Idful Studios, his musical Wonderland in the middle of Chicago's hipster haven, Wicker Park, he surveys the scene and looks very pleased. It's a long haul from the sleepy suburb of Rockford where as a saxophone player, he did time performing in everything from the wind ensemble in grade school to a Kool and the Gang cover band to a prom/wedding band whose most progressive tune was a half-hearted cover of "Clampdown" by the Clash. With great pride he walks through the main recording room, a racquetball-size, high-ceilinged box with Persian carpets spread out across the floor and points to the microphones, amps, guitars, keyboards, and a pile of analog equipment (he stopped using his digital recording and editing equipment because the sound was too clean) he has hoarded, all for the purpose of giving his clients the widest range of sounds possible. He happily opens a closet overflowing with boxes of tape, a veritable who's-who of the underground. He explains how walls will be taken out, ceilings raised and rooms re-made as the studio undergoes an expansion in coming months, all with the finesse of a man well versed in creating space, be it musical or physical. Maybe Wood smiles so much because the memory of being a coffee-and-sandwiches gofer less than 10 years ago at CRC [Chicago Recording Company] is still pretty fresh in his mind. As he stretches out on the battered couches in the front room of Idful, he rattles off a list of bands­­Tortoise, Red Red Meat, Shrimp Boat, Seam, God and Texas, Sunny Day Real Estate, and Eleventh Dream Day­­that have shored up his indie credibility among those that follow that sort of thing, while in the same breath he mentions a recent production deal with Capitol that has him working with more and more major-label bands with bigger pockets and higher profiles. Idful is booked for months in advance and often bands are recording around the clock, but the 31-year-old music fanatic who is as passionate about jazz and playing the saxophone (he hopes to put together a classical saxophone quartet when he gets some time) as he is about the guitar rock that he most often records, is happy to sit down for a few hours to dish, discuss, and dissect his ascension to the rank of most sought-after producer. We knew Wood was opinionated, but we didn't realize just how opinionated. As you'll see a bit later in the interview, when we asked him about some of the criticism that has been directed at Veruca Salt, fireworks went off. Addicted to Noise: You first came to people's attention as Liz Phair's producer. How did you hook up with Liz Phair? Wood: John Henderson introduced us. He runs a label in Chicago called Feel Good All Over. Originally her recordings were supposed to come out on that label and he was co-producing it with Liz and me. We started recording, and things didn't work out so well with John in that capacity, so it fizzled out and we did nothing for while. Later, I called her up and we started recording again, just she and I. We did two or three evenings of recording just for fun where we tried to discover something. We recorded "Fuck and Run," and that's when I realized we were on to something. This really spare beat: just guitar, drums and vocals. It had so much exuberance. I love that song. That particular recording is the epitome of what I was trying to capture. That was recorded so simply, just one microphone on the drums. ATN: Is that what ended up on the record? Wood: Yeah, just like it was. ATN: What's more fun for you? To play or produce? I know you said you were looking forward to a Liz Phair tour and then that didn't happen like it was supposed to. Wood: Yeah, that would have been fun. There's nothing like walking out on a stage in front of 5,000 people screaming their brains out. ATN: How did the tour get scrapped? Wood: She canceled the tour, and that was the end of it. She never spoke to me or guitarist Casey Rice­­and I can't speak for bassist LeRoy Bach­­about playing again. I don't know anything about it. She never said, "I don't want to work with you anymore." She never said, "Let's do a tour." I never heard anything. ATN: I thought I read an article where she said she's going to do the next record on her own and has no intention of working with you again. Wood: After a three-year working relationship with Liz, I have to read about it in the newspaper articles. Which is sort of her modus operandi. ATN: How do you feel about that? Did you feel like maybe she owed you more than that? Wood: That's fine. It's sort of par for the course. I look forward to being a fan of her music again. I don't know that even if this record had sold ten million copies that either one of us would have been well served by doing another record together. ATN: Why is that? Do you think the two of you took it as far as it could go with the first two records? Wood: I just think it's time for her to try something different and obviously she desires it. ATN: How did the response to Exile In Guyville affect you? The avalanche of adoring press must have been a little overwhelming for what seemed like a small indie project. Wood: It affected business in the sense that more people called. Nobody has ever really asked for that particular sound. The sound of that record was something that I'd been working on already. The drums were recorded with two microphones, sometimes three. I'd been reading magazine articles from years ago and checking out pictures from Zeppelin and from Beatles sessions, and trying to find microphones that might accomplish that sound. I had been working on some Seam stuff before Liz came in and that gave me some encouragement to try her record that way, especially when she came in with the idea of it as a response to the Stones. ATN: Speaking of concept records, the Veruca Salt record is a concept album as well. Wood: If it is they never mentioned it in all of the sessions we did together. People say Veruca Salt is packaged and presented to the public as a whole package, but that is just the biggest pile of shit I've ever heard in my life. There is nothing preconceived, there's nothing calculated about that band at all. ATN: You really don't think they come off a little too slick? Like maybe someone at corporate headquarters drew up a blueprint for the ultimate Grrrl band? Wood: No, no, I know for a fact. That's something that I disagree with Steve Albini about. He cites them and so did Gerard [Cosloy] from Matador as an example of pre-packaged pabulum of the masses. Now, it may be pabulum for the masses, and if people want to buy it, then maybe it's their pabulum, but it's not pre-packaged, that I know. I missed their first show by about 10 minutes, but I saw their fourth show and I thought they were fucking brilliant. They incorporated a lot of different elements of bands that I love dearly, but weren't making music that I liked very much any more. And I love the idea of Nina and Louise singing these awesome songs with extremely dark lyrics with full-on rock guitar, Sabbath-like, AC/DC power chords. It was fucking cool. I was so into it I wanted to record them that night. It was only their fourth show, and six months later they were in the studio. Absolutely nothing pre-conceived about that band. ATN: A big part of the backlash against them seems to stem from the idea that they came out of nowhere, didn't pay their dues, didn't come up the way indie bands are supposed to... Wood: Didn't pay their dues, man, Jesus Christ, what a pile of shit. They say that about Liz too, she didn't pay her dues. Yeah, but she spent like seven or however many years it was in her bedroom getting really good at songwriting. So she didn't do the Chicago circuit over and over again and become a haggard old wench before she cut her first record. She kind of circumvented that and thank god, maybe she'll have some inspiration left over. I don't want to work with people like [Ministry's] Al Jourgensen, these haggard old crones that kick around for a decade or more before they finally make a good record. They're looking to go and make music that they think will sell because their management is telling them to, and work with the same sordid crew of old school Chicago producers and engineers and managers. It's just ridiculous. Yeah, she didn't pay her dues in that regard, but she had better things to do, she was going to college and doing stuff. ATN: You don't buy that argument at all? If a band can circumvent years of shitty $50 a night gigs and launch into a recording career, go for it, backlash be damned? Wood: I don't buy any of that shit. I worked with this guy Ben Lee. 16 years old and this guy is getting a review of his first record in Rolling Stone. Gee, who's pulling the strings? Maybe the little fucker just can write great songs. He shits songs that are better than most people dream of writing. Frankly, I don't buy the whole notion of paying dues in rock & roll. I don't know anybody who's got a brain in their head who would say play Lounge Ax and Phyliss', Czar Bar and Dreamerz and all these other bars for half a decade before your first record comes out, then have your first three records ignored, which is basically what Shrimp Boat did, and then break up, broke, disillusioned and bummed out. Either do that or put one record out and have everybody like it right away and buy tons of copies. Which one would you pick? Is someone like Veruca Salt supposed to go back to playing dingy stupid bars where there's a $50 guarantee and drink tickets and then you end up making nothing or you lose money on the gig? Sure, Veruca Salt have vaulted over a lot of legitimate things that they could have done, but really, hindsight is twenty-twenty and those people left behind are going to be grumbling about it. Frankly I like that record, I play it, I have no problem with it. I hear great potential in that band. I think their absolutely going to weather the storm, because mostly its other musicians who are doing the grumbling. ATN: How did the Ben Lee record come about? How did he end up in Chicago? Wood: Mike D. [Beastie Boys] called me up last spring, and said there's this kid from Australia and we're putting out a record by his band Noise Addict and we want to have him record, but we don't want it to sound too much like a studio recording and I like what you did on that Liz Phair record, I'm going to be on tour so I can't really do it myself, would you be interested? Ben came to town and we recorded a bunch of songs, but they weren't enough which was so crazy because Mike called me up from the road, he was on Lollapalooza, and he said it was a great record, but he flipped the tape over and said, "Where's the rest of it?" We did 12 songs, but it was only 29 minutes long. The fucker wrote so many songs, but they're all a minute long. I didn't even realize we did all the songs he said he had. I didn't even think about it, we were having so much fun. It just went right over my head. Usually when a band does 12 songs that's more than enough for a record. ATN: What first got you interested in producing? Wood: One day I was reading Matter magazine, a zine that was put out here in Chicago, and Steve Albini had a column titled "Tired of Ugly Fat" and he did a two or three part series on how to record, press, distribute and make money on your own recordings. It was unbelievably informative when it came out, back in 1983. And I bought Steve's first record, the first Big Black record, the week it came out because I was so intrigued by this guy's writing. I went out and bought Wipers' records because of his recommendation. I literally did what he said. By then Iain Burgess, who along with Steve is probably one of the most influential producers in Chicago, had moved to CRC and he had Steve put together an advertising form for one of his fanzines that said "Iain Burgess is now at CRC." I thought, well cool and I called him up and I said [nerd voice] "My name is Brad and I have a band out here in the suburbs and would you listen to a tape?" and he said, "sure, I'll listen to a tape, come on by." I came in and gave him a tape and he listened to it and we came in and did three songs for the overall end result was unsatisfying to us. ATN: What did you find unsatisfying about it? Did you think you could do a better job of recording the band on your own? Wood: We didn't feel ripped off, but we felt like country mouse, city mouse. The band was all very impressed working in a world class facility but the other guys, who were around Iain's age, thought, well, "I could do this shit." There was always an interest in recording and we had our own PA, our own truck, our own lighting rig and we started a lighting company at some point to rent out the stuff we didn't use to other bands. We were making a lot of money then doing proms and weddings, so we saved up our money and the oldest guy in the band had bought a house and we built a studio in his basement in 1983. I mostly did construction, because again, I wasn't really interested in recording. And then I didn't really get into it until the studio was up and running. We started pulling in all kinds of punk bands because in Rockford in 1983 punk was a really new thing. Those guys hated the punk bands and they didn't record them very well, so I ended up talking them into letting me mix the tapes. I would go back in and re-mix the records, not knowing at all what I was doing and it sounded good to me. I got bit with the bug through working with Iain and realizing, "I can do this and I can do it better, because I can write, I can arrange, I can do all these other things, this is cool, I still want to be a musician, but my day job can be in a studio." So when I gave up on college in 1987 I started calling Iain Burgess all the time and asking him if he could get me a job at CRC and of course he probably thought "oh, no not this bloke, fucking wanker." So he put the word in for me and after applying a million times I finally got a job at CRC fetching lunch and making coffee. ATN: So what happened from there? What kind of work did you do at CRC? Wood: I was just assisting on commercial sessions, that's all there was to do. I didn't record a fucking thing that ever came out on record. I didn't even do demos. I couldn't talk any bands into working with me, I hadn't been there very long, I didn't know anything. Within six months of me getting a job there I met a guy named Dan Sonis, who had inherited some money and had a dream of opening a recording studio. It was just a fluke that I met him and to make a long story short, that guy put up the money for this place. It was basically his idea. ATN: What instruments do you play? Wood: I play the saxophone, drums, bassoon, oboe and bass, but I won't play the flute or clarinet. I can play Balinese gamelan. I can play a really good tambourine and shaker. I don't play clarinet because it's my sister's, dad's, and grandfather's instrument. It's a tortuous devil of a painful fucking beast. There's really no reason for it to ever be performed. Bass clarinet on the other hand is a great instrument. ATN: What does the name of the studio, Idful, refer to? Wood: Idful music is not contrived, hopefully, or is less contrived than commercial music. It's a term that came up in college, in Psych 101. You're bored out of your gourd, so your cool professor is explaining the Id, the ego and he uses Jimi Hendrix as an example of the id and he plays a little of it, and he uses John Coltrane as the Id, and you think, "Whoa, Idful music, cool" and you show the horns [sign of the beast]. Then when you're working at CRC bored out of your mind with the shitty music you're recording for commercials you think, "Man, if we ever open up our own studio we're only going to record Idful music." So, unfortunately that's the name of the studio, the stupidest name ever invented. ATN: What was the first thing you recorded at Idful? Wood: The first thing we recorded here was a band called Becky's Birthday, from Rockford, led by a guy named Bill Bowen who is now the leader of Five Style which is a Sub Pop band. But that never came out. The first thing I recorded that actually came out was by Tar. It was on the "Dope, Guns and Fucking in the Streets II" on Amphetamine Reptile. It was a two-seven inch compilation package. Their song was called "Antlers". It has cello on it, the first and only time I know of a Tar song with a cello. ATN: What was the first thing you recorded here that you felt really cut it, that might possibly put you on the map? Wood: The first Shrimp Boat record. I wasn't in the band at the time. It was February 1989, a week after we first officially opened. It was called "Speckly" and when it came out it got the cover of CMJ, which was pretty awesome. And great reviews in Spin and Rolling Stone. ATN: Who are some of the musicians that you really admire, in rock or elsewhere? Wood: John Coltrane, Eric Dolphy, Charles Mingus, Joe Strummer, Joe Henderson, Joe Daly, Miles Davis, let's see...rock & roll guys...Neil Young, he's awful cool, he's weathered the storm well. Steve Albini, I have a lot of respect for him as a musician. ATN: It's rare to hear someone publicly praise Steve Albini. In the alternative press he is so often slammed as being holier-than-thou, cranky, hard to work with, with an indie chip on his shoulder, you name it. Wood: He gets a bad rap because he's opinionated and very argumentative, but he's always been extremely gracious, kind, and funny, and if people would just shut up for a second and listen to what he has to say, he's usually pretty much on the money. You can't, but if you could talk to people like Kurt Cobain or Dave Grohl or Polly Harvey, people who worked with him, if they don't adore him, then they certainly stay friends with him. There's no doubt that he's done some really stupid things. He printed some things that maybe he shouldn't have in a small fanzine called Forced Exposure. The piece was called "Eyewitness Record Reviews," and it was a humorous look at some sessions he's done and what he charged for them and how the sessions went. Some of it is really unflattering and maybe would have been better left unsaid, but that's with hindsight. At the time I was fucking laughing my ass off. I loved every second of it. But I also sort of felt bad for some of the bands he tore into. Because I don't know that under those same circumstances I wouldn't behave the same way. ATN: You mean in respect to some of the work he was taking, some of the bands and their attitudes in the studio? Wood: He didn't care for the band or the way they behaved or the way the band was letting themselves be treated by the label. Pretty much any band on a major label runs the risk of getting screwed over. I don't think people are inherently evil in the music business, it's just not stacked in the artists favor. I don't think many bands or many employees of major labels are willing to be the guinea pig, to try and make things better. ATN: Make things better in what way? Wood: I can say to a band, "Hey, listen, don't be on a major label, stay on this independent and try to get as big as Ian MacKaye and Fugazi with Dischord." A lot of bands will say, "I don't have the smarts, I don't have the resources, I don't have the burning desire that an Ian MacKaye might have." It's asking a lot of somebody to say, "Your lifelong dream must be deferred and potentially never happen because of a system that's corrupt and stacked against you." It's asking for people to be Joan of Arc and I know that a lot of people don't choose to do that. Steve's arguments against major labels are extremely valid. I think that artists should make more than a 13 percent royalty rate. Then you have people making rational arguments on the other side, saying, "We can't pay them more than that because we have huge overhead, blah, blah, blah." Somebody is making a whole lot of money in the music business. It would be nice if the haves and the have-nots weren't so disparate. ATN: Producers have traditionally been these mysterious persons behind the board who are either Svengalis that pump out hit records for faceless bands or vice versa, faceless knob-turners who quietly help shape the sound of a band. What exactly is your role when you go in the studio with a band? Wood: I set up the microphones in front of the drums, guitar amps, and bass amps. I try and make it sound cool. Most bands are lucky to scrape together 11 good songs, or 11 songs period. But let's say a band has 25 songs. I might say, "This one stinks." But usually that stuff is very apparent. Then once we record it and we start to do some overdubbing, that's where I have some more input. That usually has to do with the fact that I have a lot of toys, a lot of gizmos and boxes and stuff and that's when we start doing stuff like, "Wouldn't it be cool if we did this" and they say yes or no and then that's it. Really, the challenge is trying to get it to sound good. It's really hard to put microphones in front of drums to make them sound good. I wrestle with it all the time and there's moments when I really want to throw in the towel. That's my job. It gets more peripheral, too. I also have to keep overzealous record people, independent or major, at bay if their presence makes people uncomfortable. That includes keeping out hangers-on, girlfriends, boyfriends, wives, and husbands who might interfere. ATN: Who have you not worked with who you'd like to get in the studio? Wood: Curtis Mayfield. He still sings doesn't he? I'd love to have the benefit of his knowledge, the master. The Rev. Al Green would be cool. I'd like to record the Clash. I'd like to get Topper Headon in the band and re-form the Clash and record them correctly, a more London Calling-type sound. I'd like to work with Adrian Sherwood and Lee "Scratch" Perry. I'd love to work with Spiritualized. ATN: Who has been the artist that you learned the most from? Who taught you something new about how to listen or hear music? Wood: Well, the most changes happened working with Liz. That's been the most dramatic. Here's somebody who's never worked in a studio, and then she's on the cover of Rolling Stone. That's probably been the most dramatic by far, there's a lot of learning there, not all of it positive, but the vast majority of it really awesome. For instance, when we finished the record, Casey and I listened to it and thought, this is going to sell a lot of records. What, 5,000, 10,000, no probably like 30,000. 30,000 being a great ideal. And then it sold 300,000. ATN: Will people be able to say 10 years from now, "Oh, that's obviously a Brad Wood record?" Wood: That's not for me to say. How do you pronounce o-u-v-r-e? Oeuvre? I don't know what that will be. I've done a couple of hundred records and the only thing they have in common is that I recorded them. I don't think a lot of them sound the same. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 03 Jul 2000 04:25:45 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Brad Wood/Verbow Geez, I didn't realize that article about Brad was so long until after I sent it -- now I almost feel bad about doing so. Hope you guys enjoy it anyway. Speaking of Brad, I found the following on the Release Dates section on the Wall of Sound site : Verbow: White Out (Epic) With producer Brad Wood on board, one of the few cello-based rock bands in the world returns with its second full-length album, 12 tracks in all. The album is scheduled for release on July 18. Has anyone heard anything about this band before? Are they worth checking out? Jase NP: The Replacements, _Tim_ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 07:34:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Emil Breton Subject: Re: technical liz question Jase wrote: <> Yeah, I think he said "Fuck & Run" was like a test track that they'd done, like the first night they were in the studio, or something. The drums were recorded with just one microphone, so I assumed the panning effect came in the mixing process. This doesn't add much to Jase's response. Sorry. Speaking of ATN, isn't it sad what's become of it? First they shake hands with MTV, then founder/constant contributor/all-around good guy Michael Goldberg leaves, and now ATN as we know it will be phased out after July, becoming a "regular feature" of sonicnet.com. And today's top headline is "Christina Aguilera Gives Crowd What It Wants At Tour Opener." That's NOT something you would have seen on Music News of the World 3 or 4 years ago. Very sad. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Kick off your party with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon Jul 03 12:38:50 2000 From: Headache79@aol.com Subject: riding around with liz hey all, does anyone (other than mark--hi mark!) remember about a year or so ago when some guy posted to the list that he got to ride home from a show with liz, jim, and nick, and he fell asleep in the backseat of the limo? anyone? anyone? i'm just wondering, because i'm wanting more details, and it always bothered me that we never got any. so if the guy that posted that and got the limo ride is still out there, please re-post with details! thanks, paul ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 3 Jul 2000 23:31:55 EDT From: Emo5858@aol.com Subject: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=A1pop!?= Have a "bangin' " 4th of July everyone! :oP And since its technically still today, HAPPY CANADA DAY. Sorry for the offtopic to my lists, but oh well. I'm gonna go play with firecrackers in my bathtub now. <3 stacy - -------"Bedroom eyes lead to blurry vision"------- "earthcrosser" - Veruca Salt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 04 Jul 2000 00:10:37 EDT From: "Jason Long" Subject: Happy 4th! Hey everyone, Just wanted to wish all the Americans on the list a happy Fourth of July, and I hope that all of my fellow Canadians had a good Canada Day. Plus, hey, I'm kind of also looking for an excuse to post just so I can show off my date-relevant .sig file. ;) Bored at work, Jase ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ "Today's the fourth of July, another June has gone by. And when they light up our town, I just think, 'What a waste of gunpowder and sky...'" - Aimee Mann, "4th of July" ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #179 ************************************