From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #145 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, May 30 2000 Volume 03 : Number 145 Today's Subjects: ----------------- history will have to find a different face [Riot Poof ] Goddamnit people. ["Dennis J. Kim" ] Re: Who Are Those Thieves? [Steve Rhodes ] response to jase / liz content... ["Michael Honaker" ] this discussion scares me [jimmy ] Re: support-system-digest V3 #144 [tim bean ] Not Even In The Ballpark of On-Topic ["Molly Magdalene" Subject: history will have to find a different face michael said: >That was pretty sad that you posted what that guy wrote to you... and >even his name as well. If he had the courtesy to email you off list >instead of harassing you on the list, then he deserves the same courtesy. >You probably didn't mean it to seem like you were trying to get the last >word in by naming him publicly, but thats the way I took it, and probably >others as well. Well, the part i posted was probably the nicest part of the email :( i wasnt trying to point him out to everyone, i was simply telling him NOT to send me any more email. i didnt WANT to email him privately, i dont want anything to do with him. i just wanted to get it out there that i do NOT want him sending me any more hate mail, and to do that effectively, i had to use his name. it's as simple as that. jase said: >If you want to listen to a thought-provoking record that doesn't resort >to cheap tactics and actually has something to say, pick up the new >Sleater-Kinney disc, _All Hands on the Bad One_. It's an album that seems >like a reaction, in part, to "artists" like this. amen!!!!!! steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:49:47 -0600 From: "Craig McIlhargey" Subject: Re: Jeff Buckley couldn't agree more with the lou reed recommendation. can't go wrong with the velvet underground who lou was in prior to going solo. np: ween: "the mollusk" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:12:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Dennis J. Kim" Subject: Goddamnit people. This list seems to have distilled over time to consist of a viscous (read: slow moving) residue of the most vicious, opinionated, vocal, angry, defensive, knee-jerk reactionaries on top of a layer of most opinionated, vocal, defensive, reactionary and sheep-like moderates. The only thing we have in common is that we like the music of Liz Phair. We are not cool, tasteful, intelligent consumers of music like some of us seem to think. We are as pedestrian as everyone else. I just wanted the subscribers of the list to hear this. Undoubtedly, some of you will be offended, some will be vindicated, some won't care. Some of each those categories will write verbose opinions to the list dismissing me, bashing me, telling me off, supporting me, patting my back, or threatening me. Others will email me privately. Each one will amuse/disgust me, as have all of the digests since months ago. thanks for reading. dennis ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 23:29:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Rhodes Subject: Re: Who Are Those Thieves? If I remember correctly, that line was about Liz's roommates who left dirty dishes in the sink. I think it was when she was living above the Saw Mill store (which has since closed) in San Francisco though it may be more general. - -------------------------------------------------------------- Steve Rhodes http://www.well.com/~srhodes Tiger Beat weblog on media, culture & politics (updated daily) http://www.well.com/~srhodes/blogger.html ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 02:55:26 -0700 From: "Michael Honaker" Subject: response to jase / liz content... Well, Jase, yes, those people do have too much time on their hands. What I meant by posting it to the list was, why can't someone try and be the better person and forget about it? Let them email if they want to, thats why theres a feature in E-mail systems to block addresses. Honestly, if they are getting hate mail, so to speak, and threats from someone on the list, it should be reported to you... but shouldn't it be done privately? I don't know, maybe I'm just rambling here, but where I come from, everyone deserves the same amount of respect... even if the real truth is that they're assholes with too much time on their hands (which is the case most of the time). My Liz content: Did anyone ever see the video that was sold on Ebay called "Livechocolatespaceegg"? I'm just wondering about others' takes on the camera work and if they were somewhat dissapointed at certain points in the video, like I. It seemed like the guy's description was depicting it as the best footage of Liz ever filmed. In response to the "Help Me Mary" question, I've always taken the whole song as people who only are there when they want something from you...Kind of like when you go buy the new (example) Liz Phair album during your lunch break, and then all the people that don't really speak to you and that you dislike try to latch on because they want a copy... the kind of people you'd like to see end up dead in a John Waters film. -thats my take on it. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 21:56:21 +1000 From: "C D W" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #144 >Date: Sun, 28 May 2000 13:04:08 -0400 >From: "Michael Worrell" >Subject: Who Are Those Thieves? > > >Who _are_ these thieves that leave suspicious things in the sink, etc., >etc., etc.? >Once upon a time, someone broke down the meaning of the song, and if that's >still out there, floating around in someone's saved mail, I'd appreciate it >if they'd toss that out to the list as well. > I think its supposed to be about being a 'band wife'... but it always made me think of some wonderful shared housing experiences... we had a whole bunch of suspicious stains there... chris NP - Sarge 'Distant' <--- very highly recommended! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 10:30:44 -0400 (EDT) From: jimmy Subject: this discussion scares me when someone writes hateful lyrics -- EVEN if they are a joke -- it just so happens that: a. many people don't know it's a joke and take it as face value (i.e. look what happened with nirvana's "Polly"); b. the author perpetuates desensitization (see: L.Bruce); c. and yet, somehow, tons of "open-minded, free-thinking liberals" think it's "cool" and "makes a point." count me out. there are BETTER, SAFER, LESS HORRIFYING ways to make a point (if, in fact, the author intends to make a "social commentary"). maybe i'm not "hip" because i don't see the "postmodern irony" in such lyrical tactics, but i'd rather be unhip than help perpetuate violence and hate. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 15:44:26 -0400 From: tim bean Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #144 Hi. I want to apologize for two things. I didn't mean to turn this into an eminem discussion group, and second I want to apologize for e-mailing steve like that. It was sort of taken out of context, but there's not much excusing it... I agree that it was stupid and I acted pretty dumb myself. I guess I knew at the time I was overreacting, it just scared me to hear that about any artist. To me, it was like somebody posting something about biking kill saying listen to these lyrics: "Oh baby! Yr sooo good Yr so fucking big & hard" and saying that it promotes teenaged sex. Basically, it might... out of context. I am only going to write this post and then I hope we can all respond then forget it. I will explain eminem's lyrics from the song that steve posted. Here are some other lyrics from the same song: "Shit, half the shit I say, I just make it up To make you mad so kiss my white naked ass" "A lot of people ask me.. stupid fuckin questions A lot of people think that.. what I say on records or what I talk about on a record, that I actually do in real life or that I believe in it Or if I say that, I wanna kill somebody, that.. I'm actually gonna do it or that I believe in it Well, shit.. if you believe that then I'll kill you" "Cuz every time I write a rhyme, these people think it's a crime to tell em what's on my mind - I guess I'm a CRIMINAL" In other words, the song is about having the right to free speech. That's what made me so angry... tho anger is not the emotion that should have been conjured up, and again, I'm sorry. But the fact is, the song is basically saying "look, I'm saying a bad word.. but does that make me a bad person? Even if I don't mean it?" and then it's saying "Well, if you think I can't say everything then call me a criminal and boycott my music." And that's exactly what Steve and his compadre over at glaad did. "I don't think what Steve did was the equivalent of standing in front of an abortion clinic and yelling at the people in it -- he was expressing what was, to him, a quite legitimate concern and he's completely entitled to feel the way he does." As far as the abortion clinic thing goes... these are the same thing. People in front of an abortion clinic have what seem, to them, very legitimate concerns. However, there's no reason they should threaten the people going in,and there's no reason people should threaten them. So, therefore, once more, I'm sorry. "What pisses me off is that if Eminem's lyrics contained racial slurs, surely no one would be defending him the way they are now. For some reason, when gays are put down, it's somehow permissible." Sorry for picking your post, Jason, but it pretty much covers what I want to respond to. Eminem's lyrics insult both gays and contain racial slurs; however, my point is that it would NOT be permissible if he WERE putting gays down. He's not. That's my point. Further, I think the same can be said for Steve, namely that if Eminem's lyrics only contained racial slurs, nobody would've heard anything about him, but because he supposedly picked on gays, it gets brought to the attention of this fine mailing list. I would defend him either way. I just really want people to consider what eminem is saying because he has important points, it's just that presented out of context they sound really fucked up. The reason I responded so quickly was that it made me upset that this post would make people on the list and elsewhere hate eminem, when in actuality he's one of the few talented artists in the mainstream culture today, and we need to support those. I just want to draw an analogy. To me, Steve's posting was as if 10 years ago he had come on and said "this guy Kurt Cobain is a TOTAL loser! Look at the lyrics from this song "polly"! They talk about liking to tie up a girl and RAPE her!!!" And then everyone on the list was like "oh,okay, I sure as hell won't listen to Nirvana!!!!!" That's what scares me. Anyhow, whether or not you like eminem or not, that's fine. I think it's different to say "don't buy this album" It's the same thing when somebody like Wal-Mart won't sell an album because it has explicit lyrics or what not. (Such as In Utero). I'm sure many Christian Right Groups ban Liz Phair albums, and that's not cool. The same is it not cool to boycott Eminem. If you don't like him, fine, but don't encourage a mass boycott. I feel really bad for reacting so harshly to Steve. I actually did say more in my e-mail than that, mostly arguing more about why Eminem did not mean it (tho all in a negative manner, I admit). Sorry for taking up y'alls time. Later. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 29 May 2000 23:48:50 CDT From: "Molly Magdalene" Subject: Not Even In The Ballpark of On-Topic Okay so i'm sitting there staring blankly at the telivision unsure of what is on it at all and then there's Miss Britney Spears, teen "diva"...live concert..."the voice of a generation"...what generation..and further more..if she's speaking for a generation..i mean..what is she saying? Hit me baby one more time? Oh that's intelligent....i just..ANI has the capacity to be the voice of a generation...Ms. Spears has the capacity to get more plastic surgery. M "I wanna smash the faces of those beautiful boys Those christian boys, so you can make me cum that doesn't make you Jesus" ~Tori Amos~ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #145 ************************************