From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #127 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Friday, May 12 2000 Volume 03 : Number 127 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Please Do Not Breed ["Michael Honaker" ] Re: The Long Goodbye [Kenneth Lee ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] yet more Juliana (nl) [Melissa Leigh ] fwd: wow, meredith!! ["Roper, Catherine E" ] Goodbye #2 [JLD4125269@aol.com] Why does the majority of (people posting on) the list dislike WCSE? [jgay] Muses [jgay@nhpri.org] WCSE [Craig King ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Re: support-system-digest V3 #126 ["over pavema" ] hello [Gerardo ] Re: The Battle of Vercua Salt [HOLEPARTS@aol.com] Nina [Gerardo ] OT re: the battle of veruca salt ["Steven Adams" Subject: Re: Please Do Not Breed Jesus Christ... bitch much? Why shouldn't they *have* to take it? Are we all supposed to live in a perfect world where nothing bad every happens and people are taught to love instead of hate? Wrong. That perfect world does not exist, and probably never will be. Maybe people really shouldn't have to listen to it... but what about the people that might take offense to the word "fuck"? You seem to use it an awful lot... you might be offending me... or a million other people. One word is just as bad as the next, and they're only bad if you take them that way. You seem to have a lot of hate for people you don't even know. > You know what. It's not that people CAN'T take the offensive language. > It's that people shouldn't have to. You think it's a stupid rule you're > more than welcome to leave. Maybe you don't understand why some people are > upset about this, but what i don't understand is why you're so pissed off > cause you can't use this word?! Do you think it's cute and funny to use > this word or what? You know maybe since i'm not homosexual myself i don't > have a fucking right to go off on you right about now, but i'm going to do >..........blah blah blah blah blah blah blah fucking blah.................................. - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- mhonaker@eurekanet.com http://www.eurekanet.com/~mhonaker/supernova.html "I'm just a FAGET! I'm just a FAGET!" - J. Davis - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- - -- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 01:01:07 From: Kenneth Lee Subject: Re: The Long Goodbye It's late, and I'm tired... But after reading Meredith's post, I decided I had to respond. The state of this mailing list has been in decline for quite awhile, but being optimistic, I told myself it was just the typical downtime for the list: no Liz activity (album or concertwise) and the listmembers had little Liz-related things to talk about. But with each passing digest, my concerns about this list are growing. Last night, I decided to check out the USENET newsgroup alt.fan.liz-phair, which I haven't been regularly checking (although I should). Startlingly, the posts there were actually on-topic aka Liz-related. It was surprisingly refreshing. Questions about certain songs and where they can be found were in the posts. Responses to the posts were, for the most part, accurate and friendly, to boot. And after reading the two-part digest from Tuesday/Wednesday, I couldn't believe the turnaround -- the mailing list was annoying and the newsgroup was interesting! What has the world come to? And the saddest part of this whole thing is that those long-time members, such as Meredith, are dropping off the list because of the current state of affairs. I'm actually tempted to unsubscribe as well, but I won't, as I have an obligation to stick around in case a news item or something of that nature turns up. I miss the days when our list owner Jason Long would write a reply to the day's posts at the end of each digest. It's part of that "community" aspect that Meredith brought up -- for the most part, everyone respected each other. After I replied to some of the posts in the newsgroup, I made mention of my disenchantment with this mailing list. Soon after, I received an email from an alt.fan.liz-phair lurker who asked me about this list. What are the problems with the list? Are the problems/shorcomings of the troll/ flame kind? He was concernted that the newsgroup was not active enough: 8 posts in 8 days. My reply was that I didn't mind the little amount of activity (explaining that it is a slow period in terms of Liz news), so long as the posts are Liz-related. And they have been in that newsgroup. I hope that this mailing list will follow in the footsteps of the newsgroup. I don't expect every post to be Liz- related, I just don't want mean-spirited flame wars that go on and on and on. Ok, I've got that off my chest. Maybe I should just repost old 6'1" digests so I can remember the good old days (even during that long wait between Whip-Smart and whitechocolatespaceegg). Our desperation for a new album in those posts were fun, and maybe after reading a few of these, people will start having fun posting again. That probably won't happen, but I can always hope... - -Ken kenmlee@ix.netcom.com MeSmErIzInG - AnOtHeR LiZ PhAiR WeBsItE http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2471/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 04:10:32 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: Spaceeggy@aol.com Subject: Thanks Hello list members, Since this list has become so unpleasant lately, I have decided to unsubscribe. I remember this list being cool at one point, but now it's just a pissing contest and I can't stand having my mailbox cluttered with such immaturity. Thanks to all those (especially Ken Lee) that made this list a great way to interact with other Liz phans. You rock. - --Alexandra "If I abstain from fun and such I'll probably amount to much; but I shall stay the way I am because I do not give a damn." --Dorothy Parker ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 04:11:46 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "Wendy Alkins" Subject: Juliana Hatfield Fans For any Juliana Hatfield fans in the New England area, she is doing acoustic sets at all Newbury comics locations. For more info go to eclub@newbury.com.n I for one am looking forward to her new release. I also wish Liz would come out with something soon so we would have some worthwhile content on this list. I enjoy when people share about new bands or performances, but I think the rest of the stuff is bull. Sorry if I offend, but I have been scrolling through most stuff lately. To the person who posted about the Throwing Muses show in boston, was it advertised? Just curious....I live in RI now so it's hard to find out about the good shows in Boston. That was one I would've loved to have seen. I've been a Muse/Kristin Hersh fan for years! Our alternative or new music station, WBRU, which has been voted #1 in the country I think by Rolling Stone Mag, is now playing gross rap stuff like this "Slim Shady" song and lots of other stuff including Korn & LB, which I personally don't consider to be alternative. It may be what's hip now but what I know as alternative is closer to the Seattle scene of early 90's, which I really miss. So it is interesting that anything that record companies want to push now, they categorize as alternative or new music. Now I know I am making generalizations here & it may not be true in every case...I'm just commenting in a general way since I don't post very often. Keep the peace & Let Liz release something soon! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 04:52:26 -0400 From: Melissa Leigh Subject: yet more Juliana (nl) Yes, I have to post every few hours. It helps me to avoid studying. I wanted to know if anyone else was going to Juliana Hatfield's Toronto show on the 27th. Anyone? Also, does anyone have info on the venue (Lee's palace) beyond what's on the website? I'm interested in what kind of parking is about because I have to take my car up and if anyone knows how safe that neighborhood is. I've only been to Toronto a couple of times before and by Greyhound >:#, but I'd imagine it's like NYC parking which is scary for me. State of list - Sometimes I think it would be nice to have a list that was kinda less public. It's rude to say to someone "no, you can't join my club" but if some people just don't know how to act in polite company, maybe it would be better to ask him/her to leave in a private email. This is still not a solution though considering its obnoxious and snobby if done improperly. I wonder if in another 5 years we'll be able to track Liz lists and see where the herds migrated along the ages. cranky, cranky me... back to studying. - ---melissa ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:06:04 -0400 (Eastern Daylight Time) From: "Roper, Catherine E" Subject: fwd: wow, meredith!! this is a letter that i wrote to meredith immediately after reading her post this morning. ~~~~~ gosh i couldn't agree with you more. you know i got that "double-digest" the other day and didn't read a single post. i just looked to see if i recognized anyone who had written and if the topic was intersting. and this morning i read your name and thought, "it's been so long since i've heard from her!" so i went straight to your post and read it. as i read through your post i continually thought, "that's exactly how i feel" and "couldn't have said it better myself." i, too, used to look forward to reading the digest every morning. but today i literally opened up my mail server and saw three unread messages: one from FreeLotto.com trying to get me to register my information at their website, so they could sell my name to yet another junk email comany. the second was also some kind of junk email or another, i can't even remember where it was from.....i just deleted it right away. and the third--support system digest. my immediate thoughts--man, just a bunch of crap. now i know that a lot of people would say that our disinterest may be due to liz's "lack of activity" in the music community right now.....but you know what?? even way after her tour ended last spring, i still found myself reading and reading and posting and posting throughout the summer and into the fall....... and nothing "new" was going on with her career then either. my point --> i'm with you meredith!! i'm jumping ship, too. this list has for too long been a burden more than anything else...... if only i could "unsubscribe" myself to Spam.....now then i'd be happy. love, b-day katie ~~~~~~ (anyone remember that name?? last year at this time i had spent hours and hours compiling all our emails to make a b-day card for liz from the support-system list..... and with my attitude about the list year this year, the thought didn't even cross my mind.) - -- Roper, Catherine E roperce@jmu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 08:57:29 EDT From: JLD4125269@aol.com Subject: Goodbye #2 I have to say that I agree with everything Meredith said, 100%. I have been formulating what to say in my head, but I haven't had time, and Meredith hit it dead on. I have to also agree with her that I too am very disappointed about this, as I think that this used to feel like a "connected" community as well. I am hoping to discover a new Liz list soon, maybe even one that only allows on-topic postings. I won't get much mail, but at least my mailbox won't be filled with nonsense each day, which just wastes valuable moments of my life. Sorry Jase - I still think you are a great guy, I just don't care to deal with what this list has become. Good luck to you all and happy Liz listening! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:34:19 -0400 From: jgay@nhpri.org Subject: Why does the majority of (people posting on) the list dislike WCSE? I wont say I dislike it, I just like it less. Maybe we all want Liz to still be that 25 year old foul mouth, somewhat-loose-moraled sex goddess rather than a 30-something MIF. Truth is, the stuff on WCSE just isnt as edgy, and it is a reflection of her growth as a person even more than an artist. I also love Juliana Hatfield. and where I liked Bed (her last), her 2 earlier solo albums seemed much more personal and touched me more. I like many of the WCSE songs, and I am sure I will love much of what she does next. But EIG is a classic, a snapshot in time of her life, and probably many of ours as well. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 09:36:37 -0400 From: jgay@nhpri.org Subject: Muses I was at the "reunion" show last week. Seems like a one-off deal, or more likely, an occasional reason for them all to get together. I know of no other shows planned at this time, but they teased another get together in CA in the late summer. Check their website: Throwingmusic.com Jeff :-) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 07:19:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: WCSE >>Why does the majority of (people posting on) the list dislike WCSE?<< I've often wondered this myself. About 6 months ago I went back and I rediscovered WCSE and I have come to the conclusion that it is in fact a brilliant album much in the tradition of Sgt. Pepper and Revolver. Sonically, much it is so different from most of the music out there, then and now. Some people say it was overproduced, but I really don't think that is the case. Listening to it with headphones opens up alot of doors. There's so much going on in the album that it reminds me of some of the classic rock albums of the 60's and 70's, when artists like The Beatles and Queen used a ton of overdubs. It's not necessarily my favorite Liz album, but to me it's a great album nonetheless. Then again, maybe it's just me. ;) Craig NP: Stone Temple Pilots - Interstate Love Songs __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:28:49 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: ramonasbigbrother@alloymail.com Subject: WCSE vs. EIG My GW account is down, so I had to post from another account today. Bear with me, guys:) Hi Chris, I think the reason people don't like WCSE as much as they do EIG is because with EIG Liz certified her status as an "indie" rocker--she was very edgy and raw, and her sound and image verified that. Then she became a poster girl for women rockers and was on the cover of Rolling Stone, breaking through to the mainstream. If I remember correctly, she was even one of People Magazine's 25 Most Intriguing People in 1994. With WCSE, she moved even further away from her indie roots and crafted a more polished, instrumentally-complex album. As much as I enjoy and resepct her evolution, EIG is my favorite of her albums because of Liz's defiance of conventions. She refused to conform to the mold of a polished rock and roll singer, and risked her guitar playing out of tune, and her voice cracking, if it meant she was saying something real. It is a landmark album, and it turned the expectations of female musicians upside down. Now, I must admit that it took me a couple of months of solid listening to get into WCSE--it just was not the kind of album I was expecting from Liz. "You mean she's writing and singing about the complexities of a COMMITTED relationship instead of a one-night stand? And about her son instead of 'fuck and run'"? I asked when I first listened to the album. Liz just seemed to have lost her edge to me, having stopped rebelling to embrace domesticity. What I soon realized, however, was that Liz had HARDLY stopped rebelling. And marriage and motherhood have only added more depth and dimension to her songs. She still has her insecurities, and her shameless desires, but she is also an adult. It was foolish of me to think that she must remain a 26 year-old angry Gen X-er for the rest of her life. I have been listening to WCSE a lot recently, and I love it more on every listen. The breadth of what she writes about only increases with every album. Songs like "Polyester Bride", "Go On Ahead", and "Uncle Alvarez" explore complex psychological themes, and do so in a way that is easy to equate with Liz's life but is still open-ended enough to relate to yourself. I have an "Uncle Alvarez", you know? And like Liz, I am afraid of losing my identity in a committed relationship, of becoming a "Polyester Bride". And while I still am, at 21, an idealist when it comes to love, I am slowly becoming aware that long-term relationships are much more difficult than the movie moonlight and roses scenario (my "Go On Ahead" reference, in case you didn't catch it). Seven years ago, whether she wanted to admit it or not, Liz had a gimmick--she came from the burgeoning indie rock world, sang frankly and graphically about sex, and used the f-word. Furthermore, as one of the few higher-profile female singers (I mean critically speaking, not commercially) at the time, she was truly a novelty act in the music world, a woman with attitude and wit, defying conventions. I dare say, however, that those of us on this listserv saw through that gimmick. Liz's songs were not truly about fucking. They were about frustration, identity, and guilt. They were about the bittersweet coming-of-age of a woman acknowledging her past but trying desperately and bravely to move beyond it. And that's what Liz has done in her subsequent albums. The level of maturity and craftsmanship she shows on WCSE is astounding, especially considering that five short years before her tag line was "I want to fuck you like a dog". Complexity, maturity, and evolution are all necessary processes of a true artist, and Liz is that. I don't know what I would do without all 3 of Liz's full-length albums, so perhaps we should be looking at Liz's entire body of work rather than compare one album to another. Her music and her life, like everyone else's, is a work in progress, so it's kind of not fair to say that one album is "better" than another, because each album reflects a different point in her life. My two cents for the week:) - -Emma NP: "New Amsterdam", Elvis Costello ******************************************************** "New Amsterdam, it's become much too much/Til I have the possession of everything she touches/Til I step on the brink to get out of her clutches/Til I speak double-dutch to a real double-dutchess." -Elvis Costello Emma Demastrie edemast@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:30:05 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Mea Culpa I just want to say sorry for driving these off topic posts to the point where it's poisened the atmosphere of the list. I usually hate these flame wars, I expressed views here, and I knew they were going to provoke people, but couldn't we discuss this with out the flame throwing. I admit, I probably did some of this myself, so I hope I did make anyone leave. I feel so guilty now that a few people have unsubscribed because of what's been said on here the last few days. Andrea aweiss4338@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:31:18 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: Gerardo Subject: RE: stop the insanity <> Like Jason says: Start a damn discussion yourself, if you don't have any ideas, don't send these emails. <> I have absolutely nothing to say, i usually write long emails when i find discussion interesting, or when i try to start one. And you know, sometimes a simple word means a lot of what i'm thinking about, and i think that's all i have to say for the moment. Sorry if these 'one-liners' are annoying to you, i don't know what to do about it. And for all the list: You can say whatever you please, (i'm not talking about the innapropiate word thing) but, you start to make such a big deal of small comments or opinions about an artist. When i got here i thought 'what a great list, interesting issues about MUSIC, discussions about MUSIC, etc.' I just don't think that now. Just an opinion, simple. A big wave for you all and a hug for the nice girl Molly Good night all, enjoy life and music. Gerardo * ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:34:10 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "sam" Subject: two, no three, things Two things: First, Jeff from Boston, please email me privately and tell me about the Bob Mould show, if you don't mind. I'd love to hear about it! Second: I'm unsubscribing. I guess I gotta do it officially, but this is my last post anyway. I guess I don't need to announce this ... who the hell am I? After all: > anyway i don't hate Sandra in fact i never even knew who she was > before that email that would be because i rarely post anymore. So i think I'll take this advice: > I have a better idea, how about you not read it. If you feel like it's such > a waste of you fucking time just don't read it. YOU are the one that is all > put out about the whole issue. She's not writing to me, but I'm taking her seriously. I think this list has run its course for me. With no fault to Jase ... I know he tries. So thanks, jase, valerie, jake, steve kisko, jorge, dsotm, hurricane cindy, dp, katiebrown, chipko, jason tedford, craig, even MrE who i had issues with, even nicole and jaime who fell off the face of the earth ... thanks for making this list a good one. but i'm done for now. great meeting all of you. if i need liz news, i'll check ken's site. and finally: those of you who I have been emailing about phairplay, thanks to JAKE I'll be mailing you all soon. Yes, I'm lame and behind, but I do still have all of your messages, and my word is good. Notice I've changed my email address. Later, all. sandra "But I can grow Despite all you know You might not recognize me Tomorrow Yes I can change Despite all they say Become something strange And beautiful Like joy." - - elizabeth clark phair, 'firewalker' ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 16:03:29 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "Katie Derdoski" Subject: Go Emma! Emma, I just wanted to say that your "two cents for the week" has to be one of the best posts in a long time. That's the spirit of the list right there. And can I say that it's really sad that people who are deeply affiliated with the list are giving up so soon? I see their frustration, and I understand their reasons why, but I think that by abandoning the list, it will only get worse. Their contributions were very integral to the spirit as well. I hope the members will stop unsubscribing at the rate that they are at the moment. And that's my two cents. - --KD ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 20:29:04 GMT From: "over pavema" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #126 meredith wrote: >Anyways, you can respond to this if you want, but please be aware >that I >probably won't be around to read it. I'm staying subscribed >long enough >to make sure this post makes it to the list OK (hey, >would you spend this >long pouring out your heart only to have it >vanish into the ether?), and >then I'm out of here. um, ditto. this list has always had more than its share of people who seem to enjoy being miserable and treating others without respect (remember the dumbass who coined the hi-larious nickname "alan-ass"? boy, THAT's a real knee-slapper!), but it's gotten insanely ridiculous over time. and as much as i respect the effort jason's put into the list (and he deserves a big ol' gold star every day for providing the list in the first place), i have to say it's annoying that the only time there's any attempt to enforce any rules is when HE is offended. the sudden emergence of new rules, like which words can and can't be used, is unsettling. with all the stupid, lame crap that goes on here, all the things that make this list a downer when it *should* be a community that embraces or at least encourages different opinions without some dipshit piling on with both feet to prove a) how unhappy she is or b) how clever he thinks he is, it's amazing that there is virtually no consideration for the general audience, unless and until it personally affects one person. THEN we all get to read about what constitutes proper behavior and list etiquette. the recent remark "If there's even a chance that a word might offend, then it shouldn't be used. Period." is probably the most ignorant, intolerant, and chilling comment any of us will ever read. someone wrote (in a cogent note, attempting to help), 'imagine swapping the word 'xxx' with 'yyyyyyy' or 'zzzz', and you'll get a sense for why it's so wrong to use it.' well, imagine swapping our current linguistic arbiter with jerry falwell, and HE's the guy who tells us what words are offensive, and what the penalty is for using them. or imagine swapping jason for jesse helms or the head of matador records, and imagine the words that 'offend' them are words on EIG or WS or WCSE, and imagine if those records hadn't been released because they offended the wrong person (or because there was a 'chance' that they 'may' offend someone). ever heard the lyric, 'meet the new boss / same as the old boss'? well, it's generally and dangerously true. i have a thick skin. i can put up with a lot of crap, and i can give as good as i get. what i don't have time for is a bunch of unhappy people who live to tell other people what's wrong with their opinions, or ANYone who'd deign to tell me what words i can and can't use. if there's a list of words (or maybe there are offensive letters that we should rip off of our keyboards) that subscribers may not use, please list them in the 'welcome' note. that way we'll all know the GOOD words from the BAD words (like some people believe there are GOOD animals and BAD animals). it's silly, it's insane, and it's not worth reading through anymore. speaking of words, i'm using an awful lot of 'em here, and i apologize for wasting space (do i seriously think this is having even the slightest impact? n-o.). i've rarely posted in the past, but i've tried to be generous with the group, sharing whatever unique liz information or recordings i've had, in payback for the information i used to get here. i have a list of criticisms for various regular posters here, but a) no one should care whom i wish would drop dead, b) it would just add to the negative aura hanging over the group now anyway, and c) it really plays into their hands ultimately. be unhappy. be a dipshit. be an atrocious speller or an inarticulate boob, and wonder why people don't respect you. go on ahead. i don't give a load anymore. meredith is more right than i am, actually. her note was better, sadder, and more constructive than mine. it's just a drag to see people like her, people who've contributed here and on their websites, spreading the news about liz, now bummed and bailing. a suggestion: disband this list and invite back people who've shown themselves to be contributors rather than pains in the ass. (after this note i know I wouldn't be asked back, but i'd still like to think people like meredith and ken and jason and katie (none of whom i know but all of whom have made things better in lizland) would have a forum for trading thoughts, news, observation, reviews, etc.) with that, i unsubscribe. let me say that i'll miss hearing from some of you. the rest of you can flail on in oblivion. your whacky brand of nihilism mixed with a borderline version of nazism will not affect me anymore. there are too many other pleasures in life. visit san francisco. hike the grand canyon. watch the movie 'rushmore' or 'babe: pig in the city'. do something. grow up (a little). visit monument valley or seattle or utah or vermont or new york city. go to a baseball game or learn to rollerblade. but don't spend your time being sour with other people, or getting caught up in the negativity that infects this list. your pal, o p ps: hey, whaddaya mean you won't miss me either!? that's not nice! oh, i guess i'll live. (leaping so as not to be hit by the door on the way out...) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 15:48:19 CDT From: "Molly Magdalene" Subject: An Open Apology Of Sorts >i really dont understand why you are THIS mad at me. if this is still > >about the Hole thing than im sorry, but i really dont know what else >to >say. You know i'm not THAT angry at you. I'm not really angry. I just think some things you say can completely childish. Now i know that many would probably be inclined to tell me that i don't have a lot of room to talk but..what-ever. It has nothing to do with the Hole thing...we've already established that neither one of us will change the others mind about the whole situation. >i also really cant comprehend how you could have so much hate for me >over >an e-mail. I don't have any hate for you. Just because i'm bitchy and mouthy doesn't mean i hate you. >all i know is that i could never hate anyone, or yell at them in that >tone >of voice over the internet. How is it that you know what tone of voice i'm using? >i dont feel sorry for what ive said As well as for the most part you probably shouldn't. You're entitled to your opinion..but i'm entitled to disagree with it. Maybe i'm not entitled to tear it down in such a manor..but it's a character trait i suppose..a bad habit..if you will..i'm a bitch. >a straight white male (i personally think its sad that people judge >other >people by their sex, but if that is the way it is, there ya go.) You know when i made a comment about you being a guy and how they explained so much but very little or what-ever, i didn't mean it to be offensive(actually). I was just rather surprised. There were things you said along the way that i thought(not to sound sexist or anything)sounded like "typical guy things" but for the most part..well actually..i have no friggin idea why i thought you were a chick. Maybe it was your passion for Courtney. I know that's sexist but you must admit that most that have such for a "Chick Rocker" are usually chicks themselves. Like i've stated before i've grown up in a fairly close-minded enviroment were the boys maybe listen to Tori, PJ, Hole, and Liz but don't have much of a passion for them. I apologize for being so hateful that it has seethed across a wire... M "If you want to challenge the system, don't go to bed with it" ~Ani DiFranco'~ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:01:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Gerardo Subject: hello I would love to see liz playing VU's 'Who loves the sun' and, won't it be cool? Lou Reed playing 'Shane'! I recomend you all to hear Simon and Garfunkel's 'Bridge over troubled water' right now. Gerardo * ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 22:24:36 EDT From: HOLEPARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: The Battle of Vercua Salt << Gossip time, suppoetly Nina left because both her and Louise had a crush on the same guy, rumored to be Dave Grohl. I'd heard something even wilder, the Nina had a fling with VS's drummer, Louise cheated with Nina's boyfriend and Nina caught them in bed. Make of all this what you will. >> well, im on a VS list, and the reason that has been pretty solidified over there is the second one. there as no feud over dave grohl- i beleive Nina slept with Louise's boyfriend, and Louise went and slept with Nina's boyfriend for retaliation. That is why there are so many harsh feelings i guess (even tho nina totally and completely lies whenever she is asked about the break up. ive never heard lousise's reason.....) ~Mike a straight white male ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 23:07:34 -0400 (EDT) From: Gerardo Subject: Nina I got the demo of nina's song 'Got me down' a long time a go in some website i can't even remember of. There are so many VS fans in this list, and some of them are wondering about nina's new album, and judging from this song, i can say it is going to be the best work by miss nina gordon since 'American tights'. I have that song in my i-drive, go to: https://www.idrive.com/gerardo_c/files/Shared/ Consider that it is a demo, don't expect the best quality. Thank you. Gerardo * ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 13:49:06 +1000 From: "Steven Adams" Subject: OT re: the battle of veruca salt > Date: Thu, 11 May 2000 00:03:04 EDT > From: AWeiss4338@aol.com > Subject: The Battle of Vercua Salt > Gossip time, suppoetly Nina left because both her and Louise had a crush on > the same guy, rumored to be Dave Grohl. If memory serves me right, Weezie (Louise) had a relationship with Dave Grohl, this was around the time that they released Eight Arms to Hold You, apparently Dave broke it off with her/cheated on her just before VS left for New Zealand (she told the crowd at the concert something about wanting to beat the shit out of him, or having his head delivered to her on a plate). I'd heard something even wilder, the > Nina had a fling with VS's drummer, Louise cheated with Nina's boyfriend and > Nina caught them in bed. Make of all this what you will. thats roughly the gist of it all, as far as I can remember, Nina had a fling with Stacey Jones (previously drummer in Letters To Cleo), Nina's fiance (can't remember his name - I think it started with a T, bleh, its been a long time since the VS mailing list went belly up) found out, then he and Louise go together while she was 'comforting him', Nina found out and announced she was leaving the band. Thats what happened as far as I remember, and how the rumours go, I don't think any of the band members have made any actual statements as to what actually happened. c ya, Steven NP: Breeders:: Last Splash ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 May 2000 00:23:45 EDT From: HOLEPARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: Nina In a message dated 5/11/00 10:10:54 PM Central Daylight Time, moulinex.deux@mail.com writes: << There are so many VS fans in this list, and some of them are wondering about nina's new album, and judging from this song, i can say it is going to be the best work by miss nina gordon since 'American tights'. >> i think her new album is great! and by the way, its American Thighs i believe. Number One Camera, Tonight and the Rest of My Life, 2003, Fade To Black, Now I can Die, and Horses in The City are awesome songs too on her new album. I thought that VS's 8 arms to hold you was better than american thighs tho ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #127 ************************************