From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #124 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, May 9 2000 Volume 03 : Number 124 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Words (no liz content) [Melissa Leigh ] Re: Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! ["Jas] What?! ["Molly Magdalene" ] Re: Words (no liz content) [AWeiss4338@aol.com] Re: Words (no liz content) ["Jason Long" ] offending language / album titles ["Michael Honaker" ] Re: random stuff (why I joined this list) [Easter ] Words ("fag"/ etc.)/ boxed set [Greg Bishop ] more than 2 cents.. [mikey c at yehaw ] Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! ["Al" ] rap/metal confusion [Craig King ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] touch my ass if you're qualified... ["Dana Polachowski" ] THIS POST MAKES OR BREAKS THE DAMN BOXSET IDEA! THAT IS IT! I CREATED THE IDEA [Nelsewhere@] off topic stuff [Riot Poof ] Re: Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! [Ger] Re: Bounced message [AWeiss4338@aol.com] Re: Bounced message [AWeiss4338@aol.com] Re: off topic stuff [AWeiss4338@aol.com] stop the insanity ["sam" ] blame society, not art... ["Jake" ] Re: THIS POST MAKES OR BREAKS THE DAMN BOXSET IDEA! THAT IS IT! I CREATED THE IDEA ["Jason Long" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 01:15:12 -0400 From: Melissa Leigh Subject: Words (no liz content) I feel that it is in the best interest for everyone on the list to refrain from using offensive language and to abide by the wishes of the maintainer of the list. This is not to say that we're not allowed to have conversations about controversial topics or to avoid conflict or offense to anyone, but language is a different situation. Using "fag" as an insult is not appropriate because it implies that gay=bad, which just is not okay to say any more (and should have never been). If you would like to debate the morality, etc. of homosexuality this is not the place to do it. For some of us it may be time to give up an old habit of speech ;), but it's really for the better. Even if you are not particularly offended by this term please be considerate of the other people on the list who are. HOLEPARTS@aol.com sais - "all i can say is that this is ridiculous. anyone can say the word fag. this chair im sitting on- its REALLY faggoty, just so u know" Imagine replacing all the "fags" with nigger, kike, spic, guinea, etc, and see how that sounds. Maybe then you will understand why this is not appropriate. - ---melissa ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 01:29:00 EDT From: "Jason Long" Subject: Re: Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! HOLEPARTS@aol.com ><< Still, that doesn't make the use of such terminology "right," no matter >what > context you were using it in. There are certain words that are >inappropriate > enough that they should just not be used, especially in forums like this. > >> > >all i can say is that this is ridiculous. anyone can say the word fag. > >thischair im sitting on- its REALLY faggoty, just so u know Sure, anyone can say it -- but not on this list. When I say something is not going to be tolerated, I'm not saying it just for the sake of saying it -- I mean it. And you know what? If you don't like this or any of the other list rules or policies, feel free to leave. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.... Sorry to be so pissy, but it seems like you're just posting this for the sake of trying to cause trouble. Part of why I took offense to Michael's usage of the word is because it didn't seem humorous or tongue-in-cheek (as he seemed to later imply that it was intended to be) but rather hateful (of course, at that time, I didn't know that he was gay himself either). I take offense to your post, however, because it seems like you are just trying to be contrary. If you think you're it, you better check with me, Jase ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 00:31:32 CDT From: "Molly Magdalene" Subject: What?! >all i can say is that this is ridiculous. anyone can say the word fag. > >this chair im sitting on- its REALLY faggoty, just so u know What are you talking about? M "If you want to challenge the system, don't go to bed with it" ~Ani DiFranco'~ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 01:35:44 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: Words (no liz content) I agree, if you're gay, there is a time and place for those words, and not in sexually mixed company. When straight people use them, I get real mad because it's always a slur. So let's stop all the 'fag' stuff, you're just getting people mad, especially if your gay or lesbian, like I am. And it makes you look bad as well because people will think you're a bigot. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 01:40:41 EDT From: "Jason Long" Subject: Re: Words (no liz content) Melissa Leigh wrote: >I feel that it is in the best interest for everyone on the list to >refrain from using offensive language and to abide by the wishes of the >maintainer of the list. This is not to say that we're not allowed to >have conversations about controversial topics or to avoid conflict or >offense to anyone, but language is a different situation. Using "fag" >as >an insult is not appropriate because it implies that gay=bad, which >justis >not okay to say any more (and should have never been). If you >would like >to debate the morality, etc. of homosexuality this is not >the place to do >it. For some of us it may be time to give up an old >habit of speech ;), >but it's really for the better. Even if you are not >particularly offended by this term please be considerate of the other >people on the list who are. I don't have any problems with controversial topics on this list, as long as everyone involved remains respectful of the other subscribers to the list. Melissa totally hit on what I was unable to say myself -- we should all try to be considerate of the feelings of everyone else on the list, even if something doesn't bother you in particular. >Imagine replacing all the "fags" with nigger, kike, spic, guinea, etc, >and see how that sounds. Maybe then you will understand why this is not >appropriate. You know, I had actually wanted to say something along the same lines myself, using the "n" word as an example, but it's one of those words that I don't even feel comfortable using in the context of proving my point. That's probably the one word that I cringe whenever I read or hear it, more than any other... Jase ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 02:03:39 -0700 From: "Michael Honaker" Subject: offending language / album titles hahahaha! that was exactly my whole point! My computer is acting pretty faggoty at the moment, so I am assuming its a racist pentium. and Jase... I opologize for offending you, I had no idea that you happen to be gay. I could have assumed, but wouldn't that be just as bad as using a derogatory word? I think so. So lets just drop it and move on. It's stupid to even talk about it. I made my point and you made yours. Theres no reason for either of us to dwell. Its over. Craig responded about the significance of a good album title... Actually, you have got a good point. "my new album" would probably sell just as many copies as a record by any other name by Liz. I was half asleep and wanted to ramble about it I guess. Its hard to beleive that I bitched about an album title when I usually make tapes for my neice and label them "Generic Cassette Tape 1" and things like that. On the other hand, the only significant title I've ever given a tape was a tape of the Cure for my neice and I entitled it "Ode To The Howling Woman", strictly because she liked the song "The Walk" the most and used to walk around singing the song a lot... Oh well. Off to watch Jawbreaker. > > ------------------------------ > > Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 00:12:24 EDT > From: HOLEPARTS@aol.com > Subject: Re: Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! > > In a message dated 5/8/00 1:43:07 AM Central Daylight Time, jase@iaw.on.ca > writes: > > << Still, that doesn't make the use of such terminology "right," no matter > what > context you were using it in. There are certain words that are inappropriate > enough that they should just not be used, especially in forums like this. >> > > all i can say is that this is ridiculous. anyone can say the word fag. this > chair im sitting on- its REALLY faggoty, just so u know > > ------------------------------ > > End of support-system-digest V3 #123 > ************************************ > > ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 03:55:15 EDT From: Juvenilia@aol.com Subject: Calgon, Take Me Away People.... Since everyone seems to have a problem with how everyone else contributes to the list, how about we just not contribute? Sure, the digests would be miniscule, but I wouldn't have to waste my time reading about what word was used in what context and who was offended and who wasn't. The drama on this list seems to perpetually drip. And I don't know about everyone else, but I'd rather watch "Melrose Place" reruns. Sometimes, Robbie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 04:49:51 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: Craig wrote: >With the whole Fred Durst thing. I can't believe >people actually blame the Woodstock rapes and riots on >him, and bands like Korn, Rage and Kid Rock. Don't >blame the bands, blame the people. The bands are just >used as a scapegoat for the fucked up minds of some >people. Those bands do not promote rape. Maybe if >some people actually listened to the music they would >realize that. It's unbelievable how people can't take >responsibility for their own actions. Although I did think about this at the time it happened, I've never really analyzed it until the recent posts on this subject. I'm not sure if I blame the bands themselves, but I do have to wonder if the aggressiveness of their style of music was not somewhat at fault. I'm not saying that I believe that any of these bands actively promoted or encouraged anything that happened, but I'm not sure I can completely rule this out as a factor. Maybe it's easy for me to be critical because I'm not really a fan of that style of music to begin with, but I'd really have a hard time imagining any rapes or riots occuring at, say, a Liz Phair show, or an Aimee Mann and Michael Penn show. I know that those may not be the best examples because they play smaller, more intimate venues and to much smaller crowds. But how about, say, Lilith Fair? That was a pretty grand-scale tour and nothing of that nature happened at any of those shows. You know, even though I wasn't a fan of all of the artists on the bill at the show I went to, I do have to give a lot of credit to the crowd -- they were easily one of the most respectful (both to the performers and fellow audience members) that I've seen at a large, outdoor venue and made the experience a lot more enjoyable. I also don't mean to generalize here, but maybe part of it has to do with some (but I'm certainly not saying all) of the fans bands like Korn, Limp Bizkit and Rage Against the Machine attract. I mean, it can't totally be chalked up to the aggressiveness of their music either -- you never heard of things like this happening at Nirvana or Pearl Jam shows, or any other similar band I can think of. I went to two Lollapaloozas ('94 and '95), where bands like Hole and Smashing Pumpkins played, and never witnessed any problems at those shows either. Sure, there was some moshing and crowd surfing, but no real intentional violence. Sleater-Kinney's music could be considered somewhat aggressive and even if they were to make it really big suddenly and start playing huge shows (and holy shit, that would be the *perfect* antidote to a lot of the crap out there right now), I'd have a hard time imagining anything like that happening at one of their concerts. Of course, they're a band that does take on responsibility for the safety of audience members -- they don't even allow moshing at their shows, and they would certainly put an end to any abuse that were to happen rather quickly. It'd be rather easy to also use alcohol and other substances as a scapegoat for what happened at Woodstock as well, but I can't completely buy into that either. I mean, have you been to a Guided By Voices show? Many (again, but not all) of the audience members like to drink as much as the band does, but everyone has a good time and you never encounter any bullshit. Their shows are proof that an audience can drink and still be responsible and respectful. Everyone just goes to enjoy the music and has no trouble in mind. Anyway, definitely feel free to disagree -- these are just some thoughts that have crossed my mind, but that I can't help but wonder about. Ultimately, you're right -- those people should be held accountable for their own actions, but I'm just pondering what factors may have influenced those actions. Cheers, Jase NP: Amy Rigby, _Diary of a Mod Housewife_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 06:42:37 -0700 (PDT) From: Easter Subject: Re: random stuff (why I joined this list) Jacqueline asked: > why did everyone here join this list? specifically, > it seems like it really is more of a conversation > between like-minded people, musically and > otherwise, than just liz-only. Good question. In the beginning, I joined the list cuz I felt so alone in my "little" town, thinking I'm the only Liz fan around. *sob* That's usually the case for some people I think, you join these mailing lists to discuss about the particular artist and then the best thing will happen, you meet other people. After meeting these people, you start discussing about other things like movies, other music, etc. I'll have to admit that some of the music I've gotten into where influenced by fellow members on the list. The thing about mailing lists, is it's your own little group of friends, people you can count on, even though you've never met them in person. Yikes...I'm hearing that "We are Family" song in my head at the moment. Anyhoo...the Smashing Pumpkins concert was a blast last nite. He performed Raindrops & Sunshowers solo! My fave! Of course, and then there's the bashing he did about the state of music these days. I couldn't help but think about the discussions we've had lately. Oh well...I've often wondered as the audience and the band came to during the concert..."What the fuck is going on?" Katie ();) ===== ~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ "Twenty thousand faceless names, this is your show." - Chantal Kreviazuk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 06:07:02 -0700 From: Greg Bishop Subject: Words ("fag"/ etc.)/ boxed set Jase wrote: << Still, that doesn't make the use of such terminology "right," no matter what context you were using it in. There are certain words that are inappropriate enough that they should just not be used, especially in forums like this. >> Wait a second here. This has been examined by far better minds than mine (Lenny Bruce and George Carlin come to mind) but words are just WORDS, and banning the use of any of them is not only unamerican, it's just plain paranoid. We give the words their power. We can also take the air out of them. Don't be afraid of words. We're all adults here. For myself, I rarely use the word "fag," but if I do, I qualify it. I use it to refer to objects and situations, not people. And it's used as humor, not in a hate-filled way. (See HOLEPARTS comment below.) This is as opposed to the word "homosexual" or "gay" which I DO use to refer to persons. If gay men want to refer to themselves as "fags" I believe it is a hip term for them (like blacks using "nigger") and the use of it by the "out" group to refer to themselves deprives it of it's power when used on them by the larger part of society and bigots. If other people call them "faggots," maybe no reaction or (god forbid) a short lesson in semantics would be appropriate. Or maybe a simple "fuck you" would do. I have problems with people, not words. Jase also pointed out that words should not be used loosely. This is entirely appropriate and I agree. Bravo to HOLEPARTS for her great comment. Worthy of Lenny or Carlin! We've had some disagreements, but she's OK in my book. - --->all i can say is that this is ridiculous. anyone can say the word fag. this chair im sitting on- its REALLY faggoty, just so u know<--- PS: I really LIKE the boxed set idea, whatever form it takes. I'll help if I can. Greg B. NP: Trinkets: "Happy Right This Second" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 07:42:57 -0700 (PDT) From: mikey c at yehaw Subject: more than 2 cents.. > From: Jason Long > and I'd rather than such terms were not used loosely on the list. I'm > sure > you could say whatever you wanted to and make the same point using > language > that does not bring with it the same risk of offense -- words that > aren't > generally considered slurs. Well, Jase, we could, but it seems there are contributers here that just don't have a large enough vocabulary to do this. Can't do the job if you don't have the right tools. Gez said: > You can't make chicken soup out of chicken shit. You should taste some of the 'soup' in my part of the world. Pretty sure you'd change your opinion after that. > From: brian d irby > Subject: My unenlightened thoughts on the demise of alternative music, Alternative, like punk, is a label that is living on lfar longer than the genre that inspired it. Alternative was created around the time of Camper Van Beethoven's first (vinyl) LP, to describe music that didn't fit on any current radio format. When it went mainstream, the label no longer meant anything. Except to coporate weasels in the music industry. As Andrea implies later on, 'indie' is a more accurate term to cover the ground that once was alternative. Now go about your business. I have spoken. (Hey, someone's gotta take over the egothrone for MrE.) Mikey C Va Beach __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 00 08:55:41 -0700 From: "Al" Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! >The way it is around the town that I live in, and among my friends, calling >someone >a "fag" isn't particuarly saying they're gay. It's just an insult, like the >word "asshole", >which I see you have no problem using that term. To me, this word is exactly the same as that other word that starts with an "N". I too am gay and I must admit I've used this term amongst my friends (straight or gay) loosely at times, but it's never in the context of putting someone else down. I usually use it to describe 'myself' not others. You know, kinda making light of the issue of me being gay or whatever. In a lot of straight circles, it's still uncool to be gay and it's in those same circles taht when I hear fag or faggot I feel really uncomfortable. Oh well, anyone see the movie Sugarland? It was funny. John Doe, of one of my all-time favorite bands "X" is in it as well as John Taylor from Duran, Duran fame who was surprisingly pretty good. He is married to Rosanna Arquette (isn't she a good friend of Liz?) and Ally Sheedy was also real funny in it. At first it looked like a cast of 80s wash-ups, but it was surprisingly good. Check it out. It's out on video. Very funny movie. Al :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 00 09:00:15 -0700 From: "Al" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #123 >I know it matters to some people, but it doesn't >matter to me. What counts in the long run is the >music, like it or not. Look at Led Zeppelin. The >first four albums are titled Led Zeppelin I, II, III, >IV respectively. How creative huh? Yet, those four >albums are four of the greatest albums ever made. >Why? Because of the music. Liz could call the new >album "My New Album" and it wouldn't matter. What >counts is the music. I agree. Zeppelin rules! Al :) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 09:22:09 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: rap/metal confusion >>I remember hearing one of the guys from Limp Biskit pat himself on the back recently in an interview that they had made the rap alternative metalthing. My first thought was, hey, what about Faith No More, Red Hot Chili Peppers, Anthrax, Suicidal Tendencies, etc.? That aside, I wonder how much real lyrical value is in these songs. << I was wondering when someone would bring something like this up. Fact is, it was Anthrax who made one of the first, if not THE first, true METAL/rap song way back in 1986/1987 when they did "I Am The Man". You see, Anthrax actually is a METAL band. Metal through and through. Limp Bizkit, Korn, Rage, Kid Rock, Chili Peppers, Beastie Boys and all these other bands are not metal. They are hard rock, but they are definitely not metal in the truest sense of the word. That's why I just don't get it when people say these bands are part of the rap/metal genre. They are not. They are rap/rock, not rap/metal. Now if Pantera, Metallica (when they were still metal), Slayer, Megadeth or Iced Earth went out and did a metal song with rapping over it, that would be rap/metal. There is a difference. As far as lyrical content, I think most rap/rock bands don't have alot of good lyrics. Then again it depends of your definition of good lyrics. There are some exceptions though. If you like great politically inspired lyrics, Rage Against The Machine is notorious for that. The Chili Peppers have so many great lyrics as well, expecially on Californication. Although I've always considered the Chili Peppers funk rock instead of rap/rock. There are a few bands of that genre that write respectable lyrics. Craig __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 14:03:34 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: Valerie Barry Subject: stop the madness, laugh a little gez proclaimed: >You can't make chicken soup out of chicken shit. ...which for some reason made me laugh out loud. maybe it's because i have chicken broth simmering as we speak (shitless, of course). or maybe it's because it was a bit of *gasp!* lighthearted humor in the midst of total seriousness/self-righteousness/etc. and craig, i think it would be absolutely fabulous if liz (or any artist, for that matter), called their new album, "my new album". gets the point across, anyway. and my two cents on the language/insult thing...i, too, was taken aback by the use of "fag" on this list. i also think that reprimanding such usage should be reserved for private e-mail - it's a sensitive issue, and people are bound to get defensive, it's only natural. just use some common sense, people. if a word is an epithet that is commonly directed at a certain population, then have the decency not to use it here. we all have the advantage (or disadvantage) of anonymity here, there's no reason to say things that may make people uncomfortable in this environment. we may have mental pictures of people, but we just don't know. anyway, i don't think liz would approve (still feeling a little silly and picturing a "WWLD" bracelet, like the "what would jesus do" bracelets...help me, mary). >don't let the bastards >>grind you down! ...i'm in the middle of "the handmaid's tale" right now, and that quote (in latin and in english) is used significantly throughout the book. speaking of books, jake, i am also a huge fan of "the sun also rises" and often use "isn't it pretty to think so." and andrea, congratulations on the progression of your book...keep us posted, and good luck! i'm out... valerie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 11:05:56 -0700 From: "Dana Polachowski" Subject: touch my ass if you're qualified... > > all i can say is that this is ridiculous. anyone can say the word fag. this > chair im sitting on- its REALLY faggoty, just so u know > yeah.... like, what if someone's talking about cigarettes?? hahahahaaa...... that's what they say in england: "we were sitting around smoking fags...." (ouch!!!...) christ, whatever.... usually i take my cues from the person who's using the language and--i'm not even kidding--i just *knew* that michael was gay himself. i mean, ha ha, it would just totally figure, wouldn't it....? so, whatever. all the gay guys i know refer to themselves as "big fags" (example: "you know, dana, i'd fuck you if i wasn't such a big fag..." and then of course we all laugh ourthelves *thilly*). but then again, maybe we just all *suck* as human beings.... and then there's the lady at the bank who always calls me a "stupid cunt." or the guy at the grocery store who calls me a "fuckin' bitch." do i get mad? hell no! slingin' vernacular requires style and, you know, being really really mean and hateful and yadda yadda yadda. right? six degrees of separation, dp PS: i can definitely discuss this topic in a more serious manner, and i'm happy to do that; see me off-list.... PPS: craig: i totally *love* that title "my new album" as well!! keep up the good work, bro'! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 14:27:04 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: I agree about the aggressiveness of LB, Korn ect. being a factor, that crowd at Woodstock 99 was primed and ready for action and when you have that kind of music happening, well, that's what you get. On the other hand there were a couple of concerts where there was action, and with unlikely music. Many years ago I saw the Eurryhtmics and people started rushing to the front to the stage to see them up close. I was one fo those people. Anne Lenox encouraged this by saying "let's get closer" a lot. The securty people were getting tense and she finally stopped saying she was forced too. A few years later I saw 10K Maniacs. The band had done two enores and people still wanted more. So about a quater of the audence starts walking down the isles to the front of the stage. I really thought people were going to start tangling with securty, and so did securty. Natile finally came out alone, did two songs at the piano, asked us to yell out the names of the band and her boyfriend the sound guy, to give everyone proper credit, and then everyone left peacefully. BTW I'm hearing the latest single from Vercua Salt on the radio. Not Born Enterainer but the newist one. I'm blanking on the title but Louise, oh boy. She rocks! Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 13:50:07 CDT From: "christine malnarick" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #123 Craig, I totally agree with you. I absolutely hate people who blame their parents, marlyn manson, society, TV, Video games, and everything else under the sun. You did it, and it's your fault. I just dont understand people. Christine It's unbelievable how people can't take responsibility for their own actions. Craig ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 16:05:27 -0400 From: Dan Subject: the F word. I don't wanna make light of this..but all this talk about the word "FAG" and stuff mad me think of a funny, kinda liz related story. when I saw liz in grand rapids, I went with my 2 friends, and my friend's cousin who i sorta know...but not really.. anyway, David Mead and his band opened for liz...and they were...well..okay, but nothing to write home about.. at any rate - the cousin of my friend was like, getting all buddy-buddy with me...pointing out "hot chicks" etc...and I was just rolling my eyes thinking "doesn't he get it that I am GAY??" at any rate - he is a really funny guy, but at one point during the show he said "Hey Dan...I think this band should change their name to "THE HOMOSEXUALS"." Now, alone - this is a funny statement - and I am not so uptight that I can't laugh at funny shit - so I burst out laughing..as did he, and then, mid laugh - i was like "Jay...I'm GAY!" and laughed HARDER!! He froze and was like "oh shit..oh man...i didn't know..dude..sorry man..." and he had this guilty look on his face for the rest of the night... he is a really nice guy...we still hang out now and then..but - i just thought it was kind of a funny story about how I came out to someone at a liz phair show!~! Hahahah I do wish i had a pic of his face though...it was hilarious! Like, he didn't know if i was joking or not...but i knew deep down (and by how red he was) that he knew damn well I wasn't!! But it was funny as hell - and you know - I second the motion: I think it would be perfect if Dave Mead changed the band's name. How great would that be?? "DAVID MEAD AND THE HOMOSEXUALS." I would absolutely LOVE it!! passing through, Dan. %&%&%&%&%%%%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&% "I don't have a case, that's why I have a hammer." -Farrah Fawcett, "Extremities." *******************************^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:23:03 EDT From: Nelsewhere@aol.com Subject: THIS POST MAKES OR BREAKS THE DAMN BOXSET IDEA! THAT IS IT! I CREATED THE IDEA OKAY PEOPLE! You who care email me and ill take the poll that way and from there we'll deal, if the majority says yes, then we'll try for permission, it happened for the jewel list and it can happen for us-and please do not email me comments on why it is immoral any more-i dont need to be parented okay??? Okay-anyone who wants their vote to count email me a simple yes or no, good enough? Anything else put in the email and i disregard it. I didnt mean for people to start talking about how i should be put in jail, okay?? It was just an idea blown out of proportion. Email me your responses, and privately please. Voting closes on tonight-may 9-at 10 o clock Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 16:34:02 -0400 (EDT) From: Riot Poof Subject: off topic stuff I would just like to give props to Jase. i really appreciate that you read all the posts and take the time out to so eloquently point out to people when they are being inappropriate and offensive to others. thats really cool, and i know a lot of list-owners who would just let that stuff go. so, thanks:) re: limp bizkit/icp/korn/etc......... does anyone else ever wonder why suddenly all these rich hetero white boy bands feel the need to scream?? it's like HI, you have money. and you are the most privileged person in this society. shut up. we dont care that your girlfriend hurt your feelings when she dumped you. stick cookies up your own ass. i wish "rap/rock" bands would just realize how good they really do have it instead of violently bitching out everyone else. and i do think they are just inherently mysoginistic (ahhhh cant spell) and even racist...like...they're trying to reclaim the music industry or something because they feel threatened that the 90s boom of music by women (including both the riot grrrl days as well as the Alanis days and the years after that where there were suddenly more women on the charts) and racial minorities (esp rap) was an "invasion of their territory" or something. i do not think it's a coincidence that it's "RAP/rock". it's like...they feel like the industry they dominate was getting way too equal...so they have to take back what they thought was their's, and take everyone else's too (even though they never really fucking lost it.) i dont know. everyone tells me i go too far with these things. but i dont think so. sigh. sorry i'm so annoying lately, steve "And will there always be concerts where women are raped Watch me make up my mind instead of my face The Number One Must-Have is that we are safe" - sleater-kinney "#1 Must-Have" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 17:05:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Gerardo Subject: Re: Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! <> awww... Gerardo * ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:29:55 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: Bounced message Thanks Valerie, printing out chapters as I speak, should go out on Thursday. More later. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:30:46 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: Bounced message Oh yeah The Sun Also Rises is one of my fave books, I love the phrase 'isn't it pretty to think so.' Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:42:33 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: off topic stuff Steve I totally agree with you about those bands, this is a reaction to how women in music when they finally got some respect in the industry had that stolen away from them by rap/metal. And about them being racist, that's an old story in pop music, white bands making 'black' music palatable to white fans. Think of all the stuff that happened in the 50's with that, like Pat Boone. My book takes this topic head on, part of the reason the bands in the book rebel against alternative is that their tired of women being treated like shit by them. And as for Liz content, I have an interivew with her where she talks about this, and thinks what was happening in that time was great. I miss this, Lilith fair was a lot of fun to go to, and it was just nice to see women getting their due. And Alanis selling millions of album being angry about this. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 20:12:12 -0400 From: "sam" Subject: stop the insanity First of all ... BOB MOULD PLAYED IN CAMBRIDGE!!!!!! I CANNOT BELIEVE THIS. THAT IS, LIKE, FOUR MILES FROM MY HOUSE!! Second of all ... (and apologies to Jase and the other regulars for this unprecedented -- from me, anyway -- burst of agression) I admit it's been worse, but I've been quiet till now. Will all you my-music's-better-than-your-music people just SHUT THE FUCK UP? It's so goddamned old, and by now b-o-r-i-n-g and not worth the space in my email box. Take it OFF LIST. And Gerardo, your little one-liners are annoying. Subscribe to the digest and say it all at once. I used to like this list. Now I delete it the second I scroll. And I do mean scroll. Grrr. y'all hate me now? ah, so what. sandra ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 19:16:09 -0500 From: "Jake" Subject: blame society, not art... >With the whole Fred Durst thing. I can't believe >people actually blame the Woodstock rapes and riots on >him, and bands like Korn, Rage and Kid Rock. Don't >blame the bands, blame the people. be forewarned, I'm getting on a soapbox here... you know, I have seen this discussion here before, and I totally agree with craig. this is exactly the same debate that goes on with television and movies. is oliver stone responsible for the two people who went on a killing spree reminiscent of "natural born killers" after watching it several times? what about the other millions of people who have watched nbk more than once and didn't kill anyone? is it not more feasible to think that these people were already screwed up and they were simply inspired by a movie, song, etc.? and people can find inspiration in the strangest places, so taking away what is possibly offensive will not solve the problem. it makes more sense to me to look at the kids we are raising and how we are raising them rather than blaming an outside source. yes, movies and music have an influence, but what kind of role you play in your child's life has a much bigger influence. besides, if you want to see what real media influence is, check out the propaganda used by hitler during his rise to power. he had a remarkable grasp of the purpose and technique of propaganda. in fact, it is downright scary. things like the woodstock event pale in comparison to holocaust. what happened at woodstock says more about the attitude of today's generation than it does about whatever music was playing in the background. we should concentrate on changing the attitude, because the music comes and goes. and on a totally different note, some people find fag offensive, some people find queer offensive, some people find political correctness offensive (like me). can I bum one of those queer looking fags off you? I'm feeling rather gay. a homosexual using the word fag and getting bashed for it is like a black man using the word nigger and getting bashed for it. I think some people are offended too easily. jake ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 22:03:51 EDT From: "Jason Long" Subject: Re: THIS POST MAKES OR BREAKS THE DAMN BOXSET IDEA! THAT IS IT! I CREATED THE IDEA Nick wrote: >OKAY PEOPLE! You who care email me and ill take the poll that way and >from >there we'll deal, if the majority says yes, then we'll try for >permission, >it happened for the jewel list and it can happen for us->and please do not >email me comments on why it is immoral any more-i >dont need to be parented >okay??? Okay-anyone who wants their vote to >count email me a simple yes or >no, good enough? Anything else put in >the email and i disregard it. I >didnt mean for people to start talking >about how i should be put in jail, >okay?? It was just an idea blown >out of proportion. Email me your >responses, and privately >please. Voting closes on tonight-may 9-at 10 o clock Which hardly seems fair, since about 90% of the list's subscribers are on the digest version and will not see this until well after 10:00.... Jase ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 22:24:26 EDT From: Nelsewhere@aol.com Subject: Polls are closed-I run on EST-I have the decision Despite the over whelming numbers of returns yes, frankly, all you no-ers, you dont have to get a copy, but if we do get permission, all yours to get-no problem. Anyone who wants to help me with this, and that is yeses only-email me at NikkiHassmanLVR@aol.com Thanks-Nick ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 May 2000 22:34:37 EDT From: "Morgan Hartsell" Subject: When Last We Left Our Hero... Hey ya'll-- Last time I posted, I bitched aboot my inability to get my mitts on Aimee Mann's new one.......yeah, well, I Found It!!!! Kick-ass!!! It is pretty damn good so far, and yeah, mebbe the best album of 2000 so far (although I think Tracy Bonham's "Down Here" is awful swell). PSst.....is there a single/video/anything from Bachelor No. 2??? Just curious. Liz Content: I listened to her yesterday!!!! Talk to ya's later. Morgan ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #124 ************************************