From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #123 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, May 9 2000 Volume 03 : Number 123 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [none] ["Molly Magdalene" ] [none] ["Molly Magdalene" ] Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! ["Michae] Re: Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! [Jas] Cat Power live at Alligator Cafe, Seattle, 5/7 - simply wonderful ["Rober] Videos ["Shelly" ] NO LIZ CONTENT (but a great story) [jgay@nhpri.org] [none] [Craig King ] random stuff ["jacqueline vreatt" ] re: Break Stuff [dream ] The state of pop music ["G.Hartland" ] RE: [No Subject] [Gerardo ] My unenlightened thoughts on the demise of alternative music, etc... [bri] Re: My unenlightened thoughts on the demise of alternative music, etc... [AWeiss4338@aol.co] RE: My unenlightened thoughts on the demise of alternative music, etc... [Gerardo Subject: [none] >you dont see her writing songs about him Or maybe she does and just doesn't talk about it? >or making nasty videos about him. What video did he do that was about her? >the only thing that she has said that would offend him is that he had >a small dick, and after all he has done to her, he deserved that. And don't we all say that about ex-boyfriends?*s* >if you're curious and want to find out what he did to her, just pick >up "Courtney Love- The Real Story". Not that curious. >in my opinion Trent doesnt deserve the light of day, He'd actually probably agree with you on that one. >i havent heard one thing from chris cornell that has sounded the same. Another place where our opinions differ greatly i suppose. >his last album was brilliant- something i cant say for trent reznor. I dunno, i think Trent deserves credit for some of his earlier shit. I'm a really firm believer in "The Downward Spiral" that was a true expression of hate...or maybe misery..i guess it was sort of a mixing of emotions... >and like ive said before, Chris Cornell doesnt sell records by writing >songs about people he hates, Everybody writes songs about people they hate or atleast dislike. The songs about people you like are called "love songs" and generally fucking suck. >he writes about real things- real experiences that have shaped his >life. >deaths, depression, relationships. You know i would have to say that Trent Reznor writes about much of the same thing. Of course i think all artists do. I mean he obviously hits the depression(repeatedly)because i belive that they may(have been)be his drive, which would explain why "Fragile" sucks for the most part(fucking Prozac). And even if he's writing about hating them, he's still writing about relationships. I don't think it's remotely tangible to shun a musician because they write about hate. It is after all, and unfortunately a huge part of this life. >same with courtney- no matter how much she dislikes trent, she writes >REAL music. Right, she's not a bad person because she lacks artistic ability in that department and instead of writing songs about it she just runs around and slaps people and talks hella shit. But that's okay right? >i've just become really sick of all this complaining going on. You know..i wouldn't say Trent complains much more than your average musician really. I mean even fucking Ani DiFranco' complains. Granted she's complaining about something more constructive like the NRA but complaining all the same. >and sure he suffered, but why make his fans suffer too? I don't think him writing hateful, unhappy music is making his fans suffer. If that were the fact only masochists would buy his albums..of course..there are a lot of them out there. M "I've been like one of those zombies/in vegas/pouring quarters into a slot/and now i'm tired/and i am broke/and i feel stupid and i feel used/and i'm at the end of my little rope/and i am swinging back and forth/about you" ~Ani DiFranco'~ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 00:41:40 CDT From: "Molly Magdalene" Subject: [none] >There was a single that Limp Buzkut did with some rappers that was >really >homophobic. You know, i'll admit that i did't hear this song a lot, but as i recall it wasn't homophobic..and if so not REALLY cause i didn't notice it..i usually notice shit like that, because it's not like i fucking aprove you know? >And Nookie is one of those songs where "if you don't put out for me > >voluntarily I'll get it by force." Okay i've definately heard this song enough if for no other reason than it's main stream pop voodoo and that's not what it's about at all. The entire album "Significant Other"(for the most part)is about this girl that he dated. "Nookie" is about her cheating on him with his friends and everyone knowing about it except him and him feeling pretty fucking stupid about the whole ordeal. After listening to the whole album several times i kind of think that him stating "I did it all for the nookie" is a facade so people won't really know that he really cared about this girl(whoever she may be)and she totally fucked him over. This may be wrong and possibly even to deep for Limp Bizkit but either way it has nothing to do about "if you don't put out for me voluntarily i'll get it by force." >I suspect things would have turned out the way they did even without >LB >egging them on. And it wasn't just them, other bands had a part in >this >too. So what you're trying to tell me is that several bands actually stood up on stage and publicly encouraged people to rape and beat and loot? >And then in an NY Times interview Rage Against The Machine defended >the >crowd, said they were rioting agianst capitism which was good. >And since >no rapes didn't happen during their set, maybe they didn't >happen period. That's sort of fucked up. I expect more from them than bullshit like that. I mean for the most part i thought they knew what they were talking about and were actually fighting for a cause. M "I've been like one of those zombies/in vegas/pouring quarters into a slot/and now i'm tired/and i am broke/and i feel stupid and i feel used/and i'm at the end of my little rope/and i am swinging back and forth/about you" ~Ani DiFranco'~ ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 02:18:48 -0700 From: "Michael Honaker" Subject: Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! I've seen much worse in the digest, and you bring *this* up? Well, I'm sure that they're ALL heterosexual, and turned on by women everywhere. But, sadly... I'm not. I was going to say that I wasn't even implying that they were gay. But, whats the use? Text on a computer screen is cold and unfeeling and no matter what you say, you come across the wrong way. I guess that no one ever heard of someone using the term "fag" loosely, eh? Guess not. Maybe even the homosexuals are as closed minded as the heterosexuals and religious. oh my, did I hit a nerve yet? Better call out Jerry Fallwell. The way it is around the town that I live in, and among my friends, calling someone a "fag" isn't particuarly saying they're gay. It's just an insult, like the word "asshole", which I see you have no problem using that term. So, you think I'm verbally assaulting the homosexuals, and I KNOW I'm a homosexual making a comment about a really bad trend from the 80's, and then here we are. It's a retarded subject and I don't even know why I'm trying to justify the way I am or the way I live. Yeah, I'm gay... and I use the term "Fag" loosely. So fucking what? I'm not sorry that I said it because I did not try to imply that they were 'gay and i think thats gross and they're going to hell' as most people would in this world. The only thing I'm sorry for is that the girl, Andrea was her name I think... I'm sorry that she was offended. I didn't intend to affect anyone personally. And as for others that may be or get offended, I'm apologizing before hand. > >fucking anyone from the New Fags On The Block era that attempted to have a > > Just for future reference: the use of derogatory references to homosexuality > will not be tolerated on this list. > > Why the hell do people even use gay terminology to insult others anyway? > 'Cause you know, being gay is not the same thing as being an asshole.... > > And you know, it'd be much easier to take you seriously and consider your > opinions if you didn't resort to using such references -- as it stands, it > just makes me think you need to grow up. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 02:39:00 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! Michael Honaker wrote: >I've seen much worse in the digest, and you bring *this* up? Just because you've seen worse doesn't make what you said any more right, so why are you using other people's worse behavior as an excuse for your own? >I was going to say that I wasn't even implying that they were gay. Still, that doesn't make the use of such terminology "right," no matter what context you were using it in. There are certain words that are inappropriate enough that they should just not be used, especially in forums like this. >The way it is around the town that I live in, and among my friends, calling >someone a "fag" isn't particuarly saying they're gay. It's just an insult, >like the word "asshole", which I see you have no problem using that term. "Asshole" was never intended to be derogatory in quite the same manner "fag" is. There's a difference. >So, you think I'm verbally assaulting the homosexuals, and I KNOW I'm a >homosexual making a comment about a really bad trend from the 80's, and then >here we are. It's a retarded subject and I don't even know why I'm trying >to justify the way I am or the way I live. Yeah, I'm gay... and I use the >term "Fag" loosely. Yeah, well, I'm gay too, and I happen to have a problem with such words, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm sorry, but I happen to find it offensive and I'd rather than such terms were not used loosely on the list. I'm sure you could say whatever you wanted to and make the same point using language that does not bring with it the same risk of offense -- words that aren't generally considered slurs. Jase ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 02:19:58 PDT From: "Robert Hart" Subject: Cat Power live at Alligator Cafe, Seattle, 5/7 - simply wonderful Well, Cat Power was amazing live. Whil Chan's bangs did cover her eyes, and she spent time tweaking her strings and her mike stand incessantly, she played a dreamy set. Each song flowed into the next and complemented the prior. She was on fire; she would end with a great soft chord and hit right into the next song, while the audience squeezed in a quick applause. It was as if she didn't want the applause, she wanted to play her music. The set was amazing, material from Covers, she opened with the Stones cover; she touched Moon Pix and Community, ended with a rousing (compared to the tenor of her earlier stuff) piano ballad (no one recongized it, very uptempo), all in all she played one hell of a show. Some asshole brought a cellphone, it rang during the second song, I thought Chan might break down but she was great. Can't say enough..... Rob ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 05:38:33 -0700 From: "Shelly" Subject: Videos I just wanted to say that last night, I accidently switched the channel from VH-1 (I was watching "Behind the Music--1984") and went to turn down the volume, and ended up on MTV2 just in time to catch the 2nd half of Liz's video for "Whip-Smart". It was odd & I was just stunned, since I've never seen any of her videos on MTV before, only online. Anyway, that's my cool coincidence! ~gunshy~ Shelly NP: "American Beauty"--Greatful Dead ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 10:40:53 -0400 From: jgay@nhpri.org Subject: NO LIZ CONTENT (but a great story) Ok, so I went to the Throwing Muses reunion show this past sat at the Middle East in Cambridge, and it was the 2nd best show I have ever been to (save the first time I saw Liz). Bob Mould was the surprise opening act. I was never a huge fan of his, but after seeing him play live, I can see why he has such a large following on this list. TM were fab (I had never seen them live b4) Tonya Donnelly even got up on stage and played 4 songs with the band. It was one of those "awakening" concerts, where I now realize how much I love the band, even more than before seeing them had to share Jeff :-) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 09:25:27 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: [none] "Michael Honaker" wrote: >Can anyone back me up on the significance of a good album title?<< I know it matters to some people, but it doesn't matter to me. What counts in the long run is the music, like it or not. Look at Led Zeppelin. The first four albums are titled Led Zeppelin I, II, III, IV respectively. How creative huh? Yet, those four albums are four of the greatest albums ever made. Why? Because of the music. Liz could call the new album "My New Album" and it wouldn't matter. What counts is the music. Another thing....why is it that people refer to artists like the Backstreet Boys and N'Sync as "bands". They are not "bands". They are singers, or a group, but not a "band". A "band" plays their own instruments. These artist do not. That's one of my major pet peeves. With the whole Fred Durst thing. I can't believe people actually blame the Woodstock rapes and riots on him, and bands like Korn, Rage and Kid Rock. Don't blame the bands, blame the people. The bands are just used as a scapegoat for the fucked up minds of some people. Those bands do not promote rape. Maybe if some people actually listened to the music they would realize that. It's unbelievable how people can't take responsibility for their own actions. Craig NP: Iced Earth - Somethign Wicked This Way Comes __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 08 May 2000 11:17:31 PDT From: "jacqueline vreatt" Subject: random stuff hi everyone i'm writing a little research paper right now about mailing lists like this and their subcultural value and characteristics.... so i'm curious, for the group at large: why did everyone here join this list? specifically, it seems like it really is more of a conversation between like-minded people, musically and otherwise, than just liz-only. is there anyone else who feels the same? so, i'm really curious about all this stuff. you can email me privately, or post to the list as part of a possible new thread. now it's time for my two cents on all the other topics floating around-- i think if anyone's going to make a box set, don't put released stuff on it. that's easily accessible kind of stuff, and just seems like a way to avoid paying for really good songs. i think the box set (if it ever happens) should only be unreleased stuff. there's plenty out there. also, my best friend asked me recently to make her a tape of liz so she can see what i've been blabbering about, so that's very exciting! as far as the state of music today, i think that you definitely have to put the effort into finding good creative original music, and i think that hearing it on the radio is a pleasure only afforded by those in the reach of a good college station. i interned at a pretty big washington area station (WHFS 99.1) in the fall and was just disgusted by the commercialization of it all. but i do believe there is good music out there. i went to a flaming lips show recently, and just got looper's new album, and both were defiantly non-mainstream yet creatively solid and exciting works. so have courage! keep the faith! don't give up, and don't let the bastards grind you down! ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 12:04:59 -0700 (PDT) From: dream Subject: re: Break Stuff "Molly Magdalene" wrote <<< Yeah, he's so real that nearly every god damned thing i hear from him sounds the same. I mean i'm not saying i hate him by any means, i infact like some of it, but it does all sound the same. In my humble opinion... >>> maybe you listened to a different album, but there are stuff in chris' album that might not in your wildest dreams think he would come up with. it shows various influences and *genre*. there's a beatlesque approach on some, a touch of jeff buckley on others. then there are some that purely can be traced from his works in *temple of the dog*, and even from the commercially successful *superunknown* album..of course there are still touches of the latest soundgarden album *down on the upside*[blow up the outside world, in particular]. and yes, still there is his patented rock and roll growl and scream from the early days[screaming life, fopp, ultramega ok]. imho, chris was able to take all his influences and make a sound[an album] entirely his own. UNIQUE. as you can truly distinguish between this solo effort from his previous works with a band. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send instant messages & get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 21:36:06 +0100 From: "G.Hartland" Subject: The state of pop music As a music teacher it's something I care about...... Y'see the answer is business. Money has always been a factor in music but nowadays the "music" is almost an afterthought. Years ago (God, i'm old) bands served an apprenticeship, honing their skills, doing hundreds of gigs over years etc, gathering fans as they grew. and then finally after busting their ass, they get signed. This system isn't ideal as some genuine talent slips through the net, but broadly the public decide if they want the band. It seems now people are selected to "be famous" by corporations, before being given a chance to fail or succeed by their own merits. This means the hapless artist is playing at their absolute maximum level of effort with minmum level of creative input, and so after the requisite 2 albums they are lambasted for being "past it" and a new artist steps up to the plate. Now this concept isn't new, but it is more and more the norm. Thus genuine musicians are getting squeezed out of the equation even more. Could you imagine any label signing Dylan or The Doors or even the early Nirvana in this current climate. You can't make chicken soup out of chicken shit. Gez ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 17:11:28 -0400 (EDT) From: Gerardo Subject: RE: [No Subject] <> :), i just smiled at this, that title would rock! it sounds so humble, innocent, don't know... i just like that title for a new liz album. <> I like to call them 'ballets'. Have a nice day all you. Gerardo * ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 14:52:52 -0500 From: brian d irby Subject: My unenlightened thoughts on the demise of alternative music, etc... This is a subject that has been nagging me for a while. Recently, we got an alternative music station in my city of Little Rock and when I heard that we had one, I immediately ran to my radio to hear it. Oh, was I ever disappointed. The first thing I noticed was that just about every song on the radio featured heavily distorted guitars and scratching records. It appears that this is what passes for alternative music these days. Now, don't get me wrong, I think there is room for this to an extent. My problem with this, however, is that it is very generic. I remember hearing one of the guys from Limp Biskit pat himself on the back recently in an interview that they had made the rap alternative metal thing. My first thought was, hey, what about Faith No More, Red Hot Chilli Peppers, Anthrax, Suicidal Tendencies, etc.? That aside, I wonder how much real lyrical value is in these songs. Even for Nine inch Nails (whom I respect, but don't care for otherwise) I don't really hear anything in the lyrics that inspire or challenge me. In fact, I don't hear anything challenging at all in "alternative" music. Remember, what made Nirvana what they were was the fact that they were actually saying important things. Brian ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 8 May 2000 20:03:44 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: My unenlightened thoughts on the demise of alternative music, etc... I agree with all of the original post, and I have an 'alternative' rock station near me too. And this is what I was talking about with my last post. Rap/metal, and those pop bands like 3rd Eye Blind aren't alternative. Alternative rock is rock made on indy labels that tries to present itself as an alternative to the mainstream. But there is a problem with that, as the 90's have shown, if you hide yourself away in your 'alternative' world you create a vacuum that is filled by bands apeing what's going on with the indy scene looking to make a fast buck. Pearl Jam is one example, Wmp Bizkut is another, Matchbox 20 is a third. What these bands have in common is that they fall into thius catagory. It's time for something new. Something that really is an alternative. How about fanatical Liz and Aimee Mann fans starting bands, who are all gay and lesbian rock bands, make loads of money on the indy lables they start, they get sucessful because they don't hide away, they go out there and protest the fact that woman still don't have a lot of repect in rock, much less gay people, that and most of is around today isn't an alternative. And they get big, so big everyone get's scared, are these people going to take over. So the corperations try to buy their albums, the workers go on strike the deal is off, as it was a bunch of hostile takeover attempts. FDar fetched. No, that's part of the plot of my book, which si about to be edited professionally then sent to this publisher who has expressed interst in it for a second look. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 00:00:26 -0400 (EDT) From: Gerardo Subject: RE: My unenlightened thoughts on the demise of alternative music, etc... I recomend you to stop and listen to the music. Ever heard the cocteau twins? Gerardo * ______________________________________________ FREE Personalized Email at Mail.com Sign up at http://www.mail.com/?sr=signup ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 May 2000 00:12:24 EDT From: HOLEPARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: Subject: Re: The state of popular music......? REZNOR is RIGHT! In a message dated 5/8/00 1:43:07 AM Central Daylight Time, jase@iaw.on.ca writes: << Still, that doesn't make the use of such terminology "right," no matter what context you were using it in. There are certain words that are inappropriate enough that they should just not be used, especially in forums like this. >> all i can say is that this is ridiculous. anyone can say the word fag. this chair im sitting on- its REALLY faggoty, just so u know ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #123 ************************************