From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #113 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Saturday, April 29 2000 Volume 03 : Number 113 Today's Subjects: ----------------- [none] ["Molly Magdalene" ] Courtney/ Liz looks/ PJ [Greg Bishop ] whining [Craig King ] Re: Hole, Looks of Liz, PJ Harvey/Anorexia ["Jaimee Kudrle" ] Liz Phair on a compilation [Steve Quang ] Re: Courtney [Jason Long ] A capella Liz Phair ["Andrea Steiner" ] Re: Courtney Love Rears Her Ugly Head [Jason Long ] "Carnivore" mp3 [Jason Long ] "love sucks." [Meow Grrl ] Off Topic: Dar Williams [Liz Gould ] RE: Liz Phair on a compilation ["andy" ] Re: Off Topic: Dar Williams [AWeiss4338@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V3 #112 ["christine malnarick" Subject: [none] >i dont understand why you are so mad at me. we are just having a > >discussion about courtney, no need to get so angry, really. I'm not really angry. Just opinionated. I can however see where the two get confusing. >i just happen to like her a lot and i think/know that what you are >saying >about her is wrong (in my opinion i guess). Yes, exactly IN YOUR OPINION. I'm not anymore wrong than you are. >ther is no need for courtney to ever do any photo shoots with frances >bean >frances' life is already screwed up enough as it is. You know there's no need for a lot of things, but i somehow doubt you know this all personally. I mean, how can you say in one breath that Courtney is a great mother but frances' life is all screwed up? Pictures aren't going to change anything i know. Frances Bean with always be the daughter of Kurt and Courtney. >and how could you doubt that i would rank courtney up higher than tori >or >pj? I don't doubt that you would rank her higher i just doubt that MOST people would. >u have no right to say that, Well fortunately i have the right to say anything i please. >i can think og is jealousy Oh yes, you are so smart! When's it gonna be my turn to be a junkie whore?! >Subject: courtney discussion >Big deal. You need to shut up. M "You've never been so nuts about a guy You wanna laugh you wanna cry You cross your heart and hope to die 'Til it's over and then..." ((Bjork)) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 01:42:35 -0700 From: Greg Bishop Subject: Courtney/ Liz looks/ PJ Back from lurking.... >From: "Emma L. Demastrie" >Subject: Courtney Love > I'm so torn about what to think of Courtney, I'm not. I think she's an opportunistic golddigger. Cobain wrote the first Hole album, and her next big "love," the guy from Smashing Pumpkins, (can't recall the name) wrote the second one. He has admitted this. She punched a fan at a concert for holding up "Why Did You Kill Kurt" signs, and her acting is mediocre to passable. She's a great rock performer, to her credit. >Read >"Courtney Love: The Hole Story" if you get a chance. Is it possible that she approved or assigned the writer on this biography? >would have made a GREAT Nancy Spungen in "Sid and Nancy". She was in that film! She was "Gretchen," one of Nancy's junkie friends in New York. I thought that Chloe Webb was EXCELLENT in the Nancy role. Can't think of anyone else who fit the role so well--like a glove. Liz looks: Liz is hot. She is hotter because of her work. Either one or the other would put her on my list, but the two together just clicks with me. And I was just about ready to kill a major head of state to prove my love for her when she got married, but I'm all better now. For you NSA types, that last line was a JOKE! If she was "ugly" or "fat," she probably wouldn't sing about sex, because she might not have had as much experience with it, and the little she would, would not reflect the sort of feelings that most people would want to explore. Notice that I put the two words in quotes. When you look like Ms Liz, opportunites for sex are not a problem. Horny men who constantly sniff around for it are. PJ Harvey is thin, but I don't consider her "ugly." I saw her in a concert a few years ago and all I could think was "Nouveau Female David Bowie." Maybe it was the staging or something. Her work also puts her up many rungs in the looks dept. I like thin women. I like heavier ones too. It depends. Kind of interesting how people are much more attractive when they're interesting and have something fresh and intimate to say. Liz is this x2. Greg B. NP: Jimi Hendrix - South Saturn Delta PS. Gerardo, fix your keyboard. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 07:06:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: whining >>She talked about how she doesn't have that much respect for female singers cuz she views them as "whiners" (in her own words, she listens to Korn and NIN). Then it got me to thinking, what is it about female singers' voices that attracts me to their music?<< Well, I'm not a female, so this is just my point of view. Like a lot of things in life, the whole whining female artists label is a popular misconception and a double standard. There are plenty of male artists who could be considered "whiney", but are not seen as so because it is somewhat common in the industry or they may not be quite as explicit as some women. For example, Tom Petty has written about breakups and failed relationships since he started making music. Is he considered a whiner? Absolutely not. He writes about a lot of the same general subjects that Liz does, it's just that he doesn't convey them in such an explicit manner. It's more vague, while an artist like Liz is more direct, which makes her come across to some people as being whiney. To me it seemed to become taboo to view a female artist as being whiney once certain females (Liz, Juliana Hatfield, PJ Harvey, ect...) broke through that "guyville" barrier in the early 90's. They were probably labeled as so because certain males felt threatened or couldn't take what female artists wanted to say. I never felt threatened or viewed female artists as being whiney. In fact it was a welcomed change to a lot of the stuff I was listening to in the early-mid 90's. Why is it that people can never just recognize great music as being great music, no matter who the person is that makes it? Ok, I've rambled long enough. :) Craig NP: Black Label Society - Stronger Than Death __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 09:46:30 -0500 From: "Jaimee Kudrle" Subject: Re: Hole, Looks of Liz, PJ Harvey/Anorexia as unenlightened as I am on the whole Courtney Love issue, I'd like to throw out a question. In my bleeding heart liberal mind, someone who deserves (my respect) fame and opportunity to have an impact on a society should be someone who has strong, distinct values and opinions. So, when I first heard Hole in high school, I was like yeah, that's pretty cool, although her voice kinda bothered me I liked the message that "Live Through This" brought. So my question, why did she turn around, have plastic surgery, dress like a prom queen, etc...maybe I am missing something, but this seems completely ironic & laughable. I apologize for my ignorance on the subject, if there is something I really should know, well, that's my question! Ok, Liz wouldn't ever look like Rosanne Barr, and if she did, she wouldn't be who she is, so, stupid question/point. Liz writes and sings as part of who she is, and what she looks like, whether we like it or not our appearance affects our personality and our decisions. She wouldn't be Liz Phair, obviously, if she didn't look like herself. PJ Harvey is definitely a sexy bitch. People tell me all the time how homely they think she is, but well, they are dumb. I went to my first PJ concert a couple years ago, and it was like the most amazing concert I have ever been to. She completely mesmerized me, and I walked out in a sort of mind-numbed, sexually charged euphoria. (no drugs involved) I couldn't stop staring at her, she is incredibly powerful. So anyway, i know that it sucks when people imply anorexia, and I would admit to being a silent accuser before. I think part of the reason for this is the lack of knowledge people have on the subject, which needs to be brought to light more than it is, and not just made fun of. - -Jaimee ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 12:43:44 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "Brian P. Falk" Subject: RE: support-system-digest V3 #112 PJ HARVEY: SI! COURTNEY LOVE: SI! HEATHERS: SI! AIMEE MANN: SHE SAID SHUT UP! SHE SAID SHUT UP! WHY DON'T YOU PLEEEEEAASE...?!? ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 10:01:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Steve Quang Subject: Liz Phair on a compilation Okay, haven't really been keeping up with the digest but when you've got finals and you're trying to graduate, what can you do. Well, anyway, just listened to a new compilation and Liz Phair was on it. Well, not LIZ PHAIR but a song by Weston called "Liz Phair". It wasn't half bad actually. The compilation is called "The Solution to Benefit Heal the Bay". Other songs on the disc include: "Dammit (live)" Blink 182, "Kiss Me Deadly" Reel Big Fish (a personal fav), "Speechless" Fenix TX, "Cadillac" Lit, "Indra" Theivery Corporation, "Super Bowl Sundae" Ozomatli, "The End of the Day" Goldfinger and lot's of others. It's not a bad compilation actually. And I don't even like punk/ska that much. Quang Song of the week: Bowling for Soup "The Bitch Song" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:24:21 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: Courtney Greg B. wrote: >I'm not. I think she's an opportunistic golddigger. Cobain wrote the first >Hole album, and her next big "love," the guy from Smashing Pumpkins, (can't >recall the name) wrote the second one. He has admitted this. She punched a >fan at a concert for holding up "Why Did You Kill Kurt" signs, and her >acting is mediocre to passable. Cobain wrote the first Hole album? I assume that you mean _Live Through This_, which kind of pokes a hole in your theory -- I mean, it's hard to take someone seriously who doesn't even know that Hole's first record was really _Pretty on the Inside_, released in 1991, which was recorded at a time when Kurt and Courtney barely knew each other. While _Pretty on the Inside_ was only moderately successful in the US (it still managed to outsell Nirvana's first album, _Bleach_, 2 to 1), it still received enthusiastic reviews (the New York Times named it Album of the Year) and created a stir in the UK. This was an album that the band wrote on their own, with no assistance from anyone. As for _Live Through This_, will people shut up about Kurt writing it already? One thing I love to do when people level this accusation is say, "Yeah, so he wrote all of it, huh? Every single song?" This is almost always followed by an affirmative response. Then I'll say, "Even 'Credit in the Straight World?'" This will be greeted by an "Uh huh." Then I usually say something like, "Okay, you're a fucking moron. That's a Young Marble Giants cover. Come back when you actually know what the hell you're talking about." People love to talk shit about Courtney without actually knowing what they're going on about. Learn some facts already. Another case in point: Listen to some Hole live bootlegs from 1991, before Courtney and Kurt were married. On several of them you'll hear "Violet," "Doll Parts" and a very early version of "Softer, Softest." These would be three of the _Live Through This_ songs that Kurt supposedly wrote. Uh huh. Also, check out Hole's _The First Session_. Included in the CD booklet are reproductions of several posters advertising their early shows from 1989 and 1990. Scrawled across some of them are various phrases that would later end up in songs from _Live Through This_, either as is or slightly modified; lines like "One above and one below," "I am the girl with no soul." Another thing to consider: Do you really think that anyone other than Courtney Love wrote the lyrics she sings? Holy fuck, listen to both _Pretty on the Inside_ and _Live Through This_ back-to-back; a lot of similar imagery and lyrical style dominate both. Besides, I personally have a hard time believing that it wasn't a woman who wrote those lyrics; I honestly don't think a guy could have. I know that you might argue that Kurt wrote the music just to discredit Courtney further, but that would be calling into question the ability of Courtney's extremely talented bandmates. After all, they're credited as writers of the material as well, not just Courtney. And that brings up another point. As much as I like Nirvana's albums, I don't find them as compulsively listenable as _Live Through This_. With Nirvana's albums, I'll put them on, listen all the way through once, then put them back on the shelf. _Live Through This_, I could listen to for hours on end (and have). The songs are much shorter, more concise, and quite frankly, catchier. As for the follow-up, _Celebrity Skin_, Corgan only co-wrote five of the songs that made the album, and only a couple of them are among the album's better tracks. One of the albums best songs, "Boys on the Radio," dates back a few years and well before Corgan's involvement; it was performed a lot during the touring the band did for _Live Through This_ and they performed it when they appeared on MTV Unplugged under a different title, "Sugar Coma." As for Courtney's behavior, what the hell does that have to do with her music? Keep your judgements of the artist and their art separate; they're completely different things. And you know, if someone accused me of murdering someone, especially someone I loved and was married to, I'd punch them too. I think most people would do the same. So, can you really blame her? Sorry that my first post in a while has to be so argumentive, Jase NP: Jen Trynin, _Gun Shy Trigger Happy_ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:50:43 EDT From: "Andrea Steiner" Subject: A capella Liz Phair I happen to know a few things about a capella singing because I sing with an a capella group (and our first CD is out now--yay!). If I were to sing a Liz Phair song a capella, it would definitely be "Polyester Bride". I actually sang that song being accompanied with a guitar in a local talent show. What I love about Liz Phair songs is that they are all in my voice range (alto). I could also sing "What Makes You Happy" a capella. Andrea <>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<> "I've got to tear my life apart and go west, young man." --Liz Phair <>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<>*<> ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:21:09 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: Courtney Love Rears Her Ugly Head M wrote: >You know, when you give birth to Kurt Cobains child you should expect for >people to wonder. I mean the last time i can recall seeing Frances is like >2 days after Kurt died. I don't expect her to parade the child around, even >though i'm surprised she doesn't since she is, after all, such an attention >hungry BITCH, but can't she do a quaint little fucking photo shoot for >Better Homes And Heroin Junkies who recover and think thier better than >everyone, and let us see the fucking kid? I know it's not my kid, but it's >not your fucking kid either so quit acting like Courtney is fucking mother >of the year cause she keeps her child "out of the public eye", with her in >it so much it kind of makes you wonder how often she sees that fucking kid. I guess you haven't been paying close enough attention then. Frances Bean has made several appearances since 1994; the most prominent ones were a Lollapalooza show where Courtney brought her on-stage and had the audience sing "Happy Birthday" to her and during Courtney's segment on one of those Barbara Walters specials. Ultimately, though, I'm glad that Courtney doesn't put her child on display like so many other celebrities do. She mentions her quite a bit in interviews (where it sounds like she does spend a lot of time with her), but that's about it. Much better than the many celebrities who use their children as yet another marketing tool and a way to attract even more media attention. And hell, if Courtney were the media whore everyone claims she is, she would be doing exactly that. Thank God she would rather allow Frances to have a normal childhood -- well, as normal as it can be for someone who lost one of their parents to suicide. >>id put her way above and beyond tori and pj anyday, as would most. > >I somehow doubt that. In terms of "rockers," I'd put Courtney far above both Tori and PJ Harvey. Tori, to me, isn't much of a rocker, but more of a traditional singer/songwriter type, and PJ, as much as I love her work, is too much of a cult artist -- not that many people know who she is, let alone have heard her music. Anyway, geez, all these confrontational posts -- you'd think we were talking about Aimee Mann again.... ;) Cheers, Jase ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ CNN: Given your own battles with record labels, what advice would you give to fledgling performers? Michael Penn: Learn HTML. ~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-~ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 14:51:21 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: "Carnivore" mp3 Just in case anyone's interested, I have posted an mp3 of Liz's "Carnivore" to the mailing list site. You can find it . Just follow the "Audio" link. The site is horribly out-of-date right now and a lot of broken links need to be fixed; I'm going to start working on updating it this weekend and may post another mp3 or two as well. Cheers, Jase ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 13:06:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Meow Grrl Subject: "love sucks." although i too have had enough of the courtney discussion (although by all means, keep posting ... i'll just scroll), we are all aware that courtney dear did in fact play a bit part in "sid and nancy," yes? if this has been mentioned please forgive. it's the scrolling thing. sandra __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 17:04:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Liz Gould Subject: Off Topic: Dar Williams Hey this is an off topic post I know, but sorry... I saw Dar in concert last night, and she's recording an album due out in August... the guy introducing her said she was in the studio Wed... I know some of you like Dar and thought you'd appreciate the update... she played one new song.. it was really good.. she's a really cute performer with all her stories, etc... Later! Liz NP: Christians and Pagans __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online and get email alerts with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:21:52 -0400 From: "andy" Subject: RE: Liz Phair on a compilation I don't know if anyone has heard of Wesley Willis, but he's also got a song titled "Liz Phair." For those of you not familiar with WW, he's a retarded homeless black man from Chicago (I think that's where he's from). He writes songs using his keyboard with generic drum machine beats, and about 80% of his songs have the same music and beat, just in different keys. ANYWAYS, I think I have the mp3 somewhere, I could probably dig it up if anyone is interested. andy np: built to spill - when not being stupid is not enough (live) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 21:18:17 EDT From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: Off Topic: Dar Williams Thanks for the Dar update. Augest-cool! it's high time for more Dar. Liz should cover Dar's song The Blessings. Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000 20:44:46 CDT From: "christine malnarick" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #112 >people are always saying to me, "you're so thin." but not in a >nice->complimentary sort of way, but in an accusing way with the subtle > >question "are you anorexic?" underneath it. and it really bothers me > >because, hell, i eat ALL the time (and i don't puke it up either). in > >fact 2 of my favorite things to do are eat and sleep!!!!!!!!! call me a > >slob. i call mySELF a slob. :) I totally know how you feel. in fact i work at subway, so i am really always eating. it just really bothers me that the average person would not walk up to an overweight person and say "my god! you're fat!" but for some reason it's ok to do it to skinny people? I had to have surgery a couple of years back and could not eat for a week..i ended up @ 88 lbs.(for being 16 and 5'5" i did look anorexic) but i got comments every day. next: i bought a CD at the radio station sale for $1, its built to spill "live" is it any good? I can't wait for Chicago Liz-Phest! is ours the only one going on this year? later, christine ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #113 ************************************