From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #110 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, April 26 2000 Volume 03 : Number 110 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Figure 8 - Elliot Smith ["Robert Hart" ] photos in EIG [Sarah Scott ] Liz and Looks [jgay@nhpri.org] off topic but ... ["jeF kearns" ] Need to know a Liz Song! [Nelsewhere@aol.com] UGLY GIRLS and SHORT GUYS. [Dan ] smashing pumpkins ["Jake" ] Re: Need to know a Liz Song! [HOLEPARTS@aol.com] Re: UGLY GIRLS and SHORT GUYS. [HOLEPARTS@aol.com] Looks ["Emma L. Demastrie" ] Re: Looks ["Emma L. Demastrie" ] Re: Looks [HOLEPARTS@aol.com] new to list ["andy" ] Back to the Smashing Pumpkins Discussion.. [GeekUSAPixies@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 00:12:14 PDT From: "Robert Hart" Subject: Figure 8 - Elliot Smith Well, I eagerly placed my $12 on the counter in Portland to pick up this latest from Elliot Smith. Like his other works, it took me several play-throughs to enjoy some of the songs. He has always been a great pop writer, he knows how to throw in mean hooks and this album is no different. I've read several negative reviews of the album (B- in EW) and their main point I think was that his lyricism and subjects are trite and that he got lazy (or something like that). It has been almost non-stop in my car, save a little EIG for good measure. I wouldn't compare it to Either/Or - but still good music. rob ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 05:52:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Sarah Scott Subject: photos in EIG I know this has got to be an old question, but I lost my cover to EIG a long time ago, and happened to see one yesterday. What are the polaroid photos with naked girl all about? Who is she? sarah ===== check out my website!http://www.geocities.com/HotSprings/Chalet/3816/Sarah/homepage.html __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Send online invitations with Yahoo! Invites. http://invites.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:16:09 -0400 From: jgay@nhpri.org Subject: Liz and Looks I think her looks do play a part. Many of her songs are so sexual that if she looked like Mimi on Drew Carey, it would impact the "total vision" of the music. Speaking of Drew Carey, am I the only one who thinks that Crista Miller (Drew's GF) looks a lot like Liz? Jeff ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 09:04:41 PDT From: "jeF kearns" Subject: off topic but ... Can someone please tell me who sings this song. THe chorus goes "why does it always rain on me, is it because i lied when i was seventeen". Thank-you for your time. jeF. ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 12:33:31 EDT From: Nelsewhere@aol.com Subject: Need to know a Liz Song! Which song by Liz Phair involves the words "Do the Double Dutch"? Icant get those lines out of my head! I think it is on girly0but im not sure ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 17:42:02 -0400 From: Dan Subject: UGLY GIRLS and SHORT GUYS. >> So I ask this question: if Liz looked like >> Jabba the Hut, how different would her success (not just commercial) be >and >> how differently would she be viewed as a musician? > This has got to be one of the most grey areas for me. Essentially, i don't think looks matter. The perfect example, would be (for many other fans on the list) - PJ HARVEY. I mean, PJ has a certain sex appeal about her. But let's all face it - if she were just some chick at a bar, we would all be thinking "Yuck..anorexic, big head, big nose and homely as HELL!" She is not the prettiest thing in the world (see cover of _DRY_ and back cover of _4 Track Demos_ ) - but the fact that she makes such amazing, rockin, sexual, gorgeous, angry, 'nail on the head' kinda songs MAKES her sexy... However, I don't feel her looks take away from how she is viewed. From the sound of it, PJ is EXTREMELY respected by many people on this list, me being one of them. Her looks have nothing to do with her amazing music. Liz is hot as hell...but, being a gay male - that is by far - *not* what attracted me to her music. She is just talented, which is what the bottom line comes down to. Talent is what seperates the one hit wonders, from the ones who don't fade away. Talent seperates the hollow pretty faces from the real rockers. Okay, I'm getting too deep, but I know you all get the point. On the other hand...I wonder if artists like Jann Arden, Sara Craig, Matthew Sweet would benefit if they looked like Movie Stars!! PJ Harvey too... I mean, I wonder if they WOULD be bigger...so much depends on looks, but like someone said - looks are more important in the Pop music industry. When it comes down to alternative - hell - when it comes down to flat out longevity in the music business - talent is by far the bottom line. OTHER NOT SO ATTRACTIVE LOOKING SUCCESSES: PINK FLOYD (imagine if they looked like 98 Degrees - how grotesque that would be??) RADIOHEAD (I have never heard anyone say Thom York has sexy eyes..) BECK (he is EXTREMELY cute - but in an original "BECKISH" sorta way... I mean, throw Beck in a normal, public setting and take away his talent and celebrity - and he would just be...a short ugly guy.. but he is brilliant, and brilliance equals appeal.) BILLY CORGAN (Come on people...if he wasn't a Smashing Pumpkin - who in their right mind would say he is sexy? He kind of reminds me of a creepy, younger Uncle Fester. But he rocks, therefore, he is sex.) Mick Jagger - (Okay, even though I have never actually met a sane person who actually *WOULD* fuck him - legend has it he has a whole following of chicks DYING to shag him.) That's enough for now..but I think those are some cool examples. Not everyone may agree, as everyone has different tastes - but if we SOLELY based our favourite artists on sheer looks alone, we would all be fans of VITAMIN C, JENNY LOPEZ, JESSICA SIMPSON, and the legions of "BOY BANDS" out there who all have the "HOTNESS" down pat - but as for talent..I don't think so. Personally, PJ Harvey is sexier than ANY of the above mentioned "boy bands" - and I'm a phag, so that doesn't say much for 98 Degrees. at any rate, that's my 2 cents... love always, Dan. %&%&%&%&%%%%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&%&% "I don't have a case, that's why I have a hammer." -Farrah Fawcett, "Extremities." *******************************^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^*^* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 19:23:25 -0500 From: "Jake" Subject: smashing pumpkins thought I would throw my opinion in on the whole post-siamese dream thing. I personally agree with sandra that they should have stopped with siamese dream. why? not because the other albums suck, they don't, but siamese dream is, to me, one of the best rock albums of the 90s. billy corgan made a comment somewhere after siamese dream that he wanted to make the best rock album of all time with one of their later releases. I don't think they have topped siamese dream yet, though. it's the same way I feel about pearl jam and ten. why keep going? it has all been downhill from there. if I didn't love liz so much, I would say the same thing about her and eig, and actually, a lot of people I run into who like her only like that album. they could give two shits about the rest. I don't think there are many artists who hit their peak more than once, but that could make for an interesting thread. >>his face looks like he got beat with an ugly stick. >i heard he has to use one of them big ole poop bags too. um sorry, >freeway flaskbacks. two things: (1) freeway is one of the funniest black comedies I have ever seen, and (2) did you know they made a freeway 2? I'm gonna have to go with the whole "don't do sequels" rule here. but speaking of sequels that don't suck (entirely): godfather 2 (not better, but still quite good), empire strikes back (luke loses his hand!), terminator 2 (just a cool movie), scream 2 (still managed to keep its sharp wit), and yes, I know they mentioned all of these in scream 2. jake ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:39:13 EDT From: HOLEPARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: Need to know a Liz Song! that song is "whip-smart" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 21:47:07 EDT From: HOLEPARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: UGLY GIRLS and SHORT GUYS. i totally want to to say that PJ Harvey is not ugly. She has a perfect body, is sexy, and writes great music. she is not DROP DEAD GORGEOUS, but she definately is not ugly, and id place her way up there on my list of sexy/pretty/hot females in rock ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 22:53:42 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emma L. Demastrie" Subject: Looks I've been intrigued by the conversation of looks as an important factor in the success of musicians. Liz Phair, thanks to the media and their quest for the next big thing, became the poster girl for girl rock and indie rock in the mid-90s. She was the ultimate girl rocker--intelligent, clever, angry--but she also looked very feminine and vulnerable. She empowered women and seduced men at the same time. She was not intimidating to men like the riot grrls can often be, and she didn't preach to women like the riot grrls often do. Instead, she expressed herself naturally, free of manufactured "image". This allowed both men and women to take her MUSIC seriously. She definitely had and still has a "look" that people identify her with, but it was not a fabricated look. This is another reason why I think she is such an original artist. No one can EVER copy her look or her music. That being said, however, I do feel that, as in all of show business, good looks do help bring you acceptance and success. They don't guarantee it, however. And they don't give you staying power. Liz's strength comes from her music, though. She's in the canon because of it. On the topic of Courtney Love and Liz Phair, I think Courtney is jealous that Liz has such a command and control of her music and language. Courtney's not formally educated and Liz is, and while I hate to create a hierarchy here (I am an English major, though), I really do think Courtney IS a pseudo-intellectual, while Liz is the real deal. Now I adore Courtney and defend her whenever I can, but she's not an artist in the sense that Liz is. I'm not saying that you have to be formally educated to be an artist--hardly, in fact. Our best artists are self-taught. BUT, Courtney wants to be a musical authority figure, and she's really more of an icon, someone who lived and breathed the "grunge" and "indie" era. There are more significant artists who permeated the period than her,though. Of course, "Live Through This", whether Courtney can truthfully take full credit for all of it or not, remains a powerhouse of its own without a doubt. I do not think Liz hates Courtney Love. In fact, if I remember correctly, in an issue of Rolling Stone a few years ago, in the artists' "Raves" section, one of Liz's raves was Hole's "Asking for It". I don't remember exactly what she said about it, but it was high praise. I'm interested to hear that a "Heathers 2" is going to be made. One of the coolest things about the original "Heathers" was the references to The Replacements. Christian Slater used the phrase "Color Me Impressed" in the film, and the high school was "Westerberg High". I hope they put more Mats references in the sequel!! Lastly, for Robbie: I was so excited to see your Sam Phillips quote!! I love Sam Phillips!! Do you know if she's working on a new album? It's been four years!! I'm 21 today!!!! - -Emma ***************************************************************************** "It's all smiles and business these days and I'm indifferent to the loss." -Ben Folds Emma Demastrie edemast@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:20:09 -0400 (EDT) From: "Emma L. Demastrie" Subject: Re: Looks I see your point. Courtney has definitely made more of an impact than Liz on the industry, and she's been more commercially successful, and she does have critical respect,blah blah blah. Maybe it's just that I look for purity in an artist, purity in the sense of honing and focusing in on craft. Liz is a songwriter in the purest sense--in the Joni Mitchell, James Taylor sense--in the sense that her songs are crafted, molded, shaped. She relies not on raw emotion but insight. Again, this may be the English major with all the conservative professors speaking, but there's a difference between emotion and art. There is emotion in Courtney's music, enough to raise it to an artistic level. But Liz MAKES art. I do love Courtney and I love her music and I don't think less of her now that she's Hollywood glamour and all. I'm proud of her and I respect her and I definitely don't dispute that she's a very intelligent person. Maybe it's just that I WANT Courtney to be jealous of Liz. I'm not saying she should be, and I don't know why I want her to be jealous of her. I guess it's just that Liz is more grounded than Courtney, and Courtney's still searching and developing who she is. Courtney's still a mystery, and I want her to make a bold statement about herself like Liz does. I want Courtney to stand up and say that she's proud of who she is. I don't want Cosmospolitan and Mademoiselle magazines to tell her what kind of woman she's supposed to be. Maybe I'm just afraid of Courtney becoming bland. Am I making any sense? - -Emma ***************************************************************************** "It's all smiles and business these days and I'm indifferent to the loss." -Ben Folds Emma Demastrie edemast@gwu.edu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Apr 2000 23:51:36 EDT From: HOLEPARTS@aol.com Subject: Re: Looks In a message dated 4/25/00 10:11:08 PM Central Daylight Time, edemast@gwis2.circ.gwu.edu writes: << I do love Courtney and I love her music and I don't think less of her now that she's Hollywood glamour and all. I'm proud of her and I respect her and I definitely don't dispute that she's a very intelligent person. Maybe it's just that I WANT Courtney to be jealous of Liz. I'm not saying she should be, and I don't know why I want her to be jealous of her. I guess it's just that Liz is more grounded than Courtney, and Courtney's still searching and developing who she is. Courtney's still a mystery, and I want her to make a bold statement about herself like Liz does. I want Courtney to stand up and say that she's proud of who she is. I don't want Cosmospolitan and Mademoiselle magazines to tell her what kind of woman she's supposed to be. Maybe I'm just afraid of Courtney becoming bland. Am I making any sense? >> i totally agree with everything uve just stated except this last paragraph. i agree maybe liz is more grounded that courtney, and i agree she is still a mystery. but what i disagree with, is the whole notion that courtney hasn't made a bold statement. That is all courtney has ever done since the day she got into the music business. the whole female movement, and the entire concept that it is ok for a woman to be sexy and out there, instead of all conserative and shy. she did all that. not to mention the statements she made as brave widow, mother, and the victim of entire storms of media rape. and the thing about her not being proud of who she is- i get what you r trying to get across, but courtney is the wrong person. she is VERY proud of who she is. she is THE courtney love. THE legend. THE widow. THE acress. THE mother. THE rocker. THE musician. get it? she is TOO proud of herself, and i mean that in a good, awesome way, because there arent too many people out there that arent as proud of themselves as courteny is. i definately am not, lol! look at this whole new web venture- what person that has no confidence and no pride whatsoever would think they could totally create a web portal, outlet for selling records at VERY cheap prices if not free, and a base to communicate with her fans? so, i totally agree with you, i just dont think courtney is the right person to express your pont. suggestions- alanis morissette.... *cant think of any more* ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:11:28 -0400 From: "andy" Subject: new to list I just subscribed to the list today. I've been a fan of Liz for a couple years now...I picked up Exile in Guyville I guess a little while before spaceegg came out. (Exile is definately in my top ten favorite albums) Last April my band had the good fortune of opening for Liz Phair at a show in PA. It was a fun time. Unfortunately Liz was late to the show because her son wasn't feeling well. I got the chance to talk to her backup singer quite a bit (I feel bad because I forget her name now). Anyways, I really joined the list to find out some more news about when the new album is coming out and any tour info available. In the two seconds I had to talk to Liz after the show I asked her when the album was coming out (this was last April 22nd) and she said she was going to record over the summer and then it was up to the record company. I've heard more news since then that only the basic tracks are recorded or whatever. So if anyone has more news as to when the album is due out please let me know. Sorry for the ramble. Here's a list of some other bands I like, if anyone cares... wilco, r.e.m., built to spill, big star, pavement, uncle tupelo, son volt, replacements, jayhawks, velvet underground, yo la tengo, matthew sweet, neil young, solex, beach boys, golden smog and lots more andy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 00:40:57 EDT From: GeekUSAPixies@aol.com Subject: Back to the Smashing Pumpkins Discussion.. Where would most artists be without making more and more albums..... Yes, Siamese Dream is one of the best rock albums of the 90's.. i totally agree and what not.. i mean.. the majority thinks that The Smashing Pumpkins suck after that.. but do you not realize that they really like making music?(well billy does..) And personally i think the latest album is THE best they have ever done.. sorry there really isnt any ANGST and odd guitar sounds that everyone loved so much (ie the siamese dream era..) but give it up folks.. the majority i know thinks that Exile In Guyville is the best Liz Phair album.. and she hasn't topped it yet..! but why shouldnt she keep making records? Sure Billy wanted to top the album before that and before that and before that.. etc etc.. but they are wonderful! same w/ each liz CD... pixies CD... tori CD..... smiths CD..... etc.... Why stop after you have made "the best album of your career?"...... god.... if i were an artist.... id keep going and going and going Scott (my fav SP albums.. Gish and Machina.... perhaps im just the odd one out..) ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #110 ************************************