From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #22 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Friday, January 28 2000 Volume 03 : Number 022 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: support-system-digest V3 #21 ["reesie" ] Questions, Liz touring Aus. cont. ["Sally Mae" ] Re: Liz in AUS? ["Dr Hugo Z Hackenbush" ] 10 favourite artists/albums etc. [Jason Pan ] Liz Phest? [Craig King ] Re: Favourites Of The Moment / Radiohead [AWeiss4338@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V3 #21 [Biggerd000@aol.com] ramblings by lynda [MangoHula@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V3 #21 [Headache79@aol.com] ugh ["Nicole W." ] tha pollz ["Nicole W." ] support system bonding moments [Phairer@aol.com] Polls.. [GeekUSAPixies@aol.com] Re: Polls..Oops! [Nelsewhere@aol.com] Re: Polls.. [Nelsewhere@aol.com] Sorry that this is about Aimee Mann... [Liz Gould ] POLLANDIRC! [JR? ] Re: ugh [Jason Long ] One thing I forgot... [Jason Long ] And, yay, everyone said unto everyone else... [DeadShark@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 00:54:06 -0600 From: "reesie" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #21 "if anyone knows where I can get more Aimee mp3's, contact me ASAP. " ok, here goes my first post *scary* i just got napster and it's a great resource for mp3s. i happened to bump into 13 girlysounds tracks and, let me tell you, downloading them at the low low price of 12 minutes per song is a lot better than shipping and handling and blank cassettes, not to mention burning them onto a cd from my computer is much happier than complaining that i can't listen in the car. so...if anyone doesn't have the girlysounds and doesn't have the kind of only-found-on-college-campuses free time that i do to go to www.napster.com and download them that way, email me and i'd be happy to pass them along. just doin my part =) and i won't give you any crap, either "whoever emails me at my office first after noon on january 17th will get a free copy" no no no. (feeling bad for ending my very first post in such a negative way), reesiep "i look around, and i think this, this is good enough" ~ani ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 23:03:43 -0800 From: "Sally Mae" Subject: Questions, Liz touring Aus. cont. Ok so it looks like Liz might not come to Australia anytime soon. If she was to come yeah I think she would only go to Sydney and Melbourne but I would hope she would come to Adelaide. I wouldn't mind going to Melbourne but still. No I didn't see Juliana when she came here did any aussies see Cat Power? I was disappointed she didn't get in the Hottest 100 but was pleased at Every you Every me coming in at #5! I've been wondering this for a while, how come lots of Japan- released cd's get a bonus song? The albums that I've seen that have a bonus song: WCSE, Celebrity Skin, Placebo's Without You I'm Nothing, Ben Folds Five self-titled and Jebediah's Slighty Odway. Also what is the proper definition of a "groupie"? I always thought it meant someone who sleeps with members of bands but then I hear people using it in the way that it means an obsessed fan so what do you fellow listers think is the definition? Other celebrites I really respect apart from Liz: Courtney Love, Shirley Manson, Melissa Auf Der Maur, Morgan J. Freeman (director of Hurricane Streets), all of Placebo(well mostly Brian and Stefan) for I think being good role-models for homosexuals as they are so open about their sexuality and probably some more! Tada Sally *********************************** chickclick.com http://www.chickclick.com girl sites that don't fake it. http://www.chickmail.com sign up for your free email. http://www.chickshops.com boutique shopping from chickclick.com *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 02:07:59 EST From: RocketBoyD@aol.com Subject: i recommend...... well.......here comes my list of my favorite top ten albums: 1) Like A Prayer - Madonna 2) Exile In Guyville - Liz Phair 3) Abbey Road - The Beatles 4) Katy Lied - Steely Dan 5) whitechocolatespacegg - Liz Phair 6) Live Through This - Hole 7) Revolver / White Album - The Beatles 8) The Ultimate Experience - Jimi Hendrix 9) Skylarking - XTC 10) Anthology - Sly and the Family Stone - --PHIL "some things you know and some things you just believe in and hope it comes out even" - "Ray" - Aimee Mann ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 01:50:59 PST From: "Chipko Arnold" Subject: latest poll As i'm a sucker for polls, here's my top 10 of the moment.. 1) Yo La Tengo - everything turned itself inside out 2) Lambchop - nixon 3) Counting Crows - This Desert Life 4) Patti Smith - Horses 5) Calexico - The Black Light 6) Uncle Tupelo - Anodyne 7) Ezio - Higher 8) R.E.M. - Out Of Time 9)Kelly Hogan - The Whistle Only Dogs Can Hear 10) Jame - millionaires and anything that's near the top of one of the piles that clutter the room Sorry, no Liz, but no Robyn Hitchcock either. Looking forward to getting the Laura Cantrell album, she sound like a cross between Lucinda Williams and Nanci Griffith. No snow in London, but it's cold (although above freezing). Back to the daily grind "and i wonder how i've come to know so much less than i knew before" ... Joseph Lee Henry. "i know the promise is so much better than the real thing" ... Grand Drive. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 20:58:20 +1100 From: "Dr Hugo Z Hackenbush" Subject: Re: Liz in AUS? "Steven Adams" wrote: > >And we won't even see Liz's new album until its about 2-3 months >old (ala WCSE). I wouldn't think it would be viable, it might have been when >whipsmart came out. > To get a tour ideally you would need a 2 or 3 singles to be playlisted on the "Government Youth Alternative" radio station. Its a real pity WCSE didn't have another single, since I believe polybride was playlisted for about 3 months on that station. Plus Liz did a small amount of local press and I know a local promotor was asking about the viability of a tour at the time, which would have slotted in nicely around the (cancelled) European tour. >Sally: hypothetically where would be the best place to play at? Melbourne? >or Sydney? anywhere else and I would have thought the prospect of a volume >of people knowing who she is would be way tooooo low. But then Juliana did >it, did any Aussies on the list go? > I saw her on her last two tours. The last one, with the full band, she played band rooms at pubs to about 300-400 people. This is what Liz would expect to get with her current profile, which I think is smaller than she usually plays. But then again a number of overseas artists tour here when they have zero profile, so maybe they are coming out for other aesthetic reasons. Rebecca Gates & Sam Prekop played to less than 100 people when I saw them, but they were excited about seeing the "Penguins on Parade"! Go figure. is ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 22:39:16 +1100 From: Jason Pan Subject: 10 favourite artists/albums etc. First thing first, my fav artists/albums at the moment (in any order): 1) Radiohead: OK Computer (I only got it for Christmas (Good timing, anyway), but I think Electioneering has to be one of the coolest songs ever) 2) Liz Phair: WCSE (the only one I've got) 3) Metallica: Master of Puppets (Can never hear enough of them, especially with S&M breathing new life into old songs) 4) The Living End: The Living End 5) Powderfinger: Internationalist 6) Blue Oyster Cult: Best of (mainly for Don't Fear The Reaper) 7) The Offspring: Ignition (The Early LPs are SOOOO much better than Americana) 8) Everclear: World of Noise 9) Tori Amos: To Venus and Back (whoever said 1000 Oceans is a brilliant song should be applauded for his/her good taste) 10) Jebediah: Of Someday Shambles On the Radiohead New Album front, you can read guitarist Ed O'Brien's diary, which has song titles, ideas etc, at www.radiohead.com/us.html Jason ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 06:38:27 -0800 (PST) From: Craig King Subject: Liz Phest? Jase wrote: >>I think the best example of this I could point to is that when TMK posted just after the New Year about making Liz Phest happen this summer, there was not one response to what he wrote.<< I was actually going to respond to this when TMK originally posted it. However, since I was one of the people who really pushed for it last year and it never happened, I thought I'd just keep my mouth shut to see if anyone else posted about it. I do think this would be a really cool thing to try and plan again this year, especially if Liz happens to be touring by that time. Although I'm not holding my breath. Either way I think it would be a good time. Anyone else interested? Or am I the only one? Craig NP: Juliana Hatfield - Become What You Are __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 11:43:19 EST From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: Favourites Of The Moment / Radiohead Albums listening to right now: Dar Willaims, End Of The Summer (seeing her live this weekend can't wait) The Nields, Play Liz WCSE Aimee The Mann Magnolia Magnetic Fields 69 Love Songs vol 2 (three voulmes, all love songs total 69) Save Ferris, Modified Current favorites all of them. Current favorite radio station WXPN I'll never forget why they made Headache my all time fave Liz song, they played it one night and the way it sounded, wow! Andrea ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:50:27 EST From: Biggerd000@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #21 just thought i should tell everyone that there is a channel for liz phair on mirc its called #liz_phair so its pretty sweet the guy just started it so its usually empty there arent many liz phair fans in this world but check it out to chat about her phairness so check out #liz_phair and if you wanna talk about aimee man go to a amy mailing list ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 12:58:05 EST From: MangoHula@aol.com Subject: ramblings by lynda okay, i want to get in on this fave albums thing........... i rarely listen to music at home, mostly at work and in my car...........right now my loves are: gbv-do the collapse gbv-mag earwhig red house painters-retrospective mercury rev-deserter's songs flaming lips-the soft bulletin christina aguliera-live at the mci center (the above is just a joke but i really did see her w/ tlc last week at the mci center, thank god for free tickets in our executive suite. . . . ) anyway, that's what i have here at work but now i cannot remember what's in the car..........must be all the snow messing with my mind. i'll have to fill y'all in later. hey brian--why don't you buy me a few of those stocks?? who cares what tommy says!!!!! okay, so who wants to send me a copy of this aimee mann album the whole world is speaking so highly of?? =) as for some liz content, well there you have it, i said 'liz'. back to work ~lynda np-- gbv (i'm addicted. . . . . . ) (oh, btw, does anyone know where i can get a recent gbv boot?? i want the one from the 9.30 club b/c my drunken self got to say happy birthday to me into bob's mic!!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:42:41 EST From: Headache79@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V3 #21 okay! i admit it! it was me! i bought the olivia newton-john cd! but... it was for my mom! yeah, that's it! it was for mom! paul NP: olivia... uh, i mean liz phair-wcse ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:46:34 -0500 (EST) From: "Nicole W." Subject: ugh I can't believe I have to do this, so I'll try to make it quick: >Yes, Nicole, I am the list administrator. And seeing as how I already >made a ruling on something, it should have already been dropped. When I >respond, I'm just holding my ground on something that shouldn't have been >challenged. Jase, I think you're forgetting the difference between list administrator and dictator. You mentioned people were accusing you of being a dictator, and that's VERY certainly how it seems. You own the list and you bounce the messages to it, etc, but you do n't RULE the list. The list is nothing without the subscribers, too. Somebody has to be the one to start the list and correct glitches or un$ub people if they don't know how to do it manually, but hello! We aren't your subjects. We have no obligation to follow your orders. >>And I'm sticking to my guns about what I've said: sticking to one "off" >>topic is OLD and tired. >Maybe for you that's the case when that "off" topic is Aimee Mann. >However, >during the Great Alanis Debate, you didn't seem to have any problems with >it; heck, you seemed to be having a good time adding fuel to the fire. >Why the change of heart now? Ahem: That was a FIGHT, not a thread. It had to be resolved before I would shut up. It wasn't a matter of talking about Alan-ass and her every shiny aspect for weeks on end, it was a matter of some dude getting his online friends to join the list and pretend they were knowledgeable and then proclaim they were members for ages and now they were going to quit the list, etc. >>And @ least griping about the shitty state of the list is content >>different from that of the past month. Sigh. And the reason people-- >>well, at least this goes for me-- are so adamant about posting their >>discontent with the list is so that maybe that will clue people in to >>start trying to talk about other things. >Griping about the content of the list doesn't change anything, though. If >anything, it only makes matters worse. It doesn't get people to talk >about other things; it just leads to debate like this and a lot more >discontent on both sides. I don't know what list you'r reading, Jase, but to me it seems like as soon as people complained about the tedium of the digest in the past few weeks, list members started trying to come up with some new content, and that's still going on. So apparetnly it DID work. >If people really want more Liz content or to discuss a different subject, >the key is to post something about that topic that will get the ball >rolling. It's not that difficult to get the pendulum to swing back the >other way. Hrmm.. but wait. Earlier in your post didn't you say that you tried to start new subjects and no one responded? Why? >>And if Aimee does become big and gets "shoved down [my] throat" as Jase >>wishes, it'll probably only serve to make me gag. >Nicole, if you might have looked closely enough, you would have seen a >certain emoticon at the end of that paragraph that might have indicated >that I wasn't being completely serious.... Oh details,d etails. I never notice those damn emoticons, but you know what? I don't doubt that you meant what you said anyway, in spite of the smily face, so there. And shit, everybody's half-jokes are misconstrued, cuz that's what my response was anyway. Bleh. The bottom line is, this isn't like... communism, mmm k? YOu own the list, but you don't own us or anything. As much as you say you're just trying to keep the list in check, you do tend to be condescending in your aproaches to it. That bugs me. It really sucks that I have to be making this post, tho, Jase. I don't have anything against you, at least in theory. I never did before, and it's only now that I'm feeling a bit of animosity. I'm just seeing a different side of ya. And of course, I'm quite outspoken, or at least outwritten. In real life I just let things simmer til I explode in a mountain of emotions, but on here, I just say ita s I feel it. Yeehaw. Anyway, well this could keep goign back and forth but I'm just going to stop it here so here's your chance to say alot of offensive stuff about me because I'm no going to reply to it. The truth is, probably either both of us are right or neither of us are, but nobody is singularly correct. Ahh well. It makes for soem good purging when I have to make grrr sort of posts. Later, Nicole-- List Bitch * * * * * * * * * * * * "Perfect is a fault, and fault lines change." -R.E.M. "Push me and I will resist/ This behavior's not unique" -Pearl Jam "Insanity is super sanity." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 14:57:17 -0500 (EST) From: "Nicole W." Subject: tha pollz If I had to listen to one Liz song and NO other ones for eternity, I'd probably pick Divorce Song. I mean I have many many songs that are my favorites, but I think this would be best to listen to by itself forever and ever. It's just super, lyrically, musically, imageryally, vocally, blah blah blah. It's very intense. Ten albums I listen to right now? There probably aren't ten, but if there is, the variety is only in the albums, not the artists: Lauryn Hill - The Miseducation of Lauryn Hill The Beatles - "The White Album" Pearl Jam - Steppin' Stones (a bootleg my friend borrowed from his friend so I could tape it- he rocks. but that's a long story.) The Beatles - Let It Be The Beatles - Magical Mystery Tour R.E.M. - Various albums... whatever I can find in my car at the time Liz - Girlysounds Jimi Hendrix - Experience Hendrix (a best of album) -- pause for a second -- I forgot exactly what the poll is. What we've listened to in the past month? Cuz there's stuff I listrened to three weeks ago but haven't since. Hrmm. I guess I don't listen to alot of variety from week to week. Or I'll go weeks listening to the same thing, and then switch. Hmm so I'll list... what I umm... listened to a few weeks ago for the last two albums-- Nirvana - In Utero (I suggest you all pull this album from the back of your CD collection and listen to it again. And blast "Pennyroyal Tea" cuz that's a fucking amazing song) Hole - Celebrity Skin Hmm. What other people do I hold in highest regard besides Liz? All members of Pearl Jam, but ESPECIALLY Eddie Vedder. And well, at least as of now they all rank above Liz cuz I'm just kind of burnt out on Liz in a way, but even if I wasn't most of Pearl Jam would rank above her except maybe Matt Cameron who rocks but he' snot really a permanent member of the band. John Lennon I too like Gillian Anderson alot, but just cuz she's hot. I don't necessarily follow her work or anything. Powerpuff Girls! (well not really. I mean I like 'em alot but they're just cartoons and I don't like them THAT much) Mmm k I think tha'ts all. Naptime. Later, Nicole * * * * * * * * * * * * "Perfect is a fault, and fault lines change." -R.E.M. "Push me and I will resist/ This behavior's not unique" -Pearl Jam "Insanity is super sanity." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:35:56 EST From: Phairer@aol.com Subject: support system bonding moments Hi there- Thought I'd start a nice, funny thread - something we may all have in common. What is your most embarrassing Liz moment? Did you sing/scream F&R to bank tellers in the drive-thru lane? Did you totally make a fool of yourself in front of the goddess Liz? Share and heal. I'm trying to narrow down which one of mine I will choose... paige- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 17:55:42 EST From: GeekUSAPixies@aol.com Subject: Polls.. Hey, it's my first time posting.. but i felt the need to share my current "Top 13" with everyone.. 1. ANY SMASHING PUMPKINS ALBUM ON THIS EARTH. 2. The Smiths- Meat Is Murder 3. Sleater-Kinney- Call The Doctor 4. Tori Amos- Boys For Pele 5. The Pixies- Surfer Rosa 6. The Breeders- Pod 7. Liz Phair- Exile In Guyville 8. Veruca Salt- American Thighs 9. Weezer- Pinkerton 10. Elastica- Elastica 11. Bikini Kill- Reject All American 12. That Dog- Totally Crushed Out 13. Portishead- Dummy ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:30:32 EST From: Nelsewhere@aol.com Subject: Re: Polls..Oops! Meant to sign that last one.... Nick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 18:30:09 EST From: Nelsewhere@aol.com Subject: Re: Polls.. My top ten would probably be as follows: 1-Sarah McLachlan, Fumbling Towards Ecstacy 2-Tori Amos-to venus and back 3-Fiona Apple-When the Pawn fucking hits(as great an album as it is-I HATE THE TITLE! 4-Beth Hart-Screamin' For My Supper 5-Duncan Sheik-Humming 6-Sheryl Crow-The Glode Sessions 7-Tie between Liz's Whitechocolatespaceegg and Exile in Guyville 8-Christina Aguilera(Everyone in intitled to a guilty pleasure-but I know its just wrong) 9-Garbage-both albums, Version 2.0 and Selftitled 10-and-if everyone promises not to hate me, britney spears......im sorry okay-please dont all hate me at once! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 15:55:55 -0800 (PST) From: Liz Gould Subject: Sorry that this is about Aimee Mann... I hope this off topic post doesn't upset too many of you... I was bored and looking through the CDNOW album listings for Aimee Man when I saw she was on the Jerry Maguire soundtrack... the track she has on there is "Wise Up"... Doesn't anyone think it's odd that the 2 Tom Cruise movies which she has tracks on both have the song Wise Up???? Liz __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2000 16:36:59 -0800 From: JR? Subject: POLLANDIRC! Biggerd000@aol.com wrote: #liz_phair what server? slanted and enchanted - pavement the stone roses - the stone roses mellon collie and the infinite sadness - the smashing pumpkins parklife - blur dig me out - sleater-kinney the boy with the arab strap - belle and sebastian weezer - weezer butch - the geraldine fibbers fin de siecle - the divine comedy the bends - radiohead sitting along, Daniel http://foolarchy.com/redelvis http://www.gurlpages.com/music/jnthn icq-1010543 aim-coxonryder i'm not going to take any risks this time... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:02:07 -0500 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: ugh Nicole wrote: >Jase, I think you're forgetting the difference between list administrator >and dictator. You mentioned people were accusing you of being a >dictator, and that's VERY certainly how it seems. You own the list and >you bounce the messages >to it, etc, but you do n't RULE the list. The list is nothing without the >subscribers, too. Somebody has to be the one to start the list and >correct glitches or un$ub people if they don't know how to do it manually, >but hello! We aren't your subjects. We have no obligation to follow your >orders. Nicole, as I pointed out yesterday, I own the list. This is not public demain, it *is* privately owned. As such, if I set rules for the list, they are to be followed. It's just like if you use an IRC server to chat, you agree to the rules set by whoever owns that server. On some lists, it is strictly forbidden to flame other subscribers, post binaries, use foul language, sell bootlegs or any number of other things, and if someone repeatedly breaks the rules, they get kicked off the list. Those rules are there to be followed, and when they are broken, there are consequences. And Nicole, although you don't seem to get it, this list isn't any different. People who can't follow the list's etiquette and cause trouble are not welcome. I'm not saying that anyone is my subject, just that if they join the list, they agree to follow a certain code of conduct. This is no different than any other mailing list out there. And if you or anyone can't handle the rules, well, there's the door. >Ahem: That was a FIGHT, not a thread. It had to be resolved before I >would shut up. It wasn't a matter of talking about Alan-ass and her >every shiny aspect for weeks on end, it was a >matter of some dude getting his online friends to join the list and >pretend they were knowledgeable and then proclaim they were members for >ages and now they were going to quit the list, etc. It didn't start out as a fight until you and a few others kept swiping at those who did like Alanis. And even then, all of the things you described didn't happen right away, but only after the Alanis fans kept being provoked and everyone kept baiting each other. >I don't know what list you'r reading, Jase, but to me it seems like as >soon as people complained about the tedium of the digest in the past few >weeks, list members started trying to come up with some new content, and >that's still going on. So apparetnly it DID work. Griping itself didn't work; people posting about other topics is what did it. And that was my point. None of the threads that did start were created by those who actually did the complaining, but by other list members after the complaining. Next time, skip the complaining and just try bringing up a new topic. >The bottom line is, this isn't like... communism, mmm k? YOu own the >list, but you don't own us or anything. As much as you say you're just >trying to keep the list in check, you do tend to be condescending in your >aproaches to it. That bugs me. No, I don't own you, but I do own the list. If you don't like what takes place here, then leave already. And Nicole, if you use an IRC server and break the rules and the administrator says something about it, is that communism? I hardly think so, and this isn't either. And if I seem condescending, maybe it's because when I read certain posts, such as yours, *I* feel like I'm being condescended to. You get what you give. Besides, half the time this feels like the only way for me to get through to anyone after being too laid-back of a list owner in the past. Jase ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:15:23 -0500 From: Jason Long Subject: One thing I forgot... In terms of moderated mailing lists, of which there are many, is that communism when a list owner has to approve your postings before they go to the list at large, and may even reject them? I personally don't think so; I think those are just the rules you agree to play by when you sign up. Also, in terms of, say, the Matador Bulletin Board, it's not uncommon for posts that have been made there to be removed if they are deemed inappropriate. Do you consider that communism as well, Nicole? Thinking he's already said quite enough, Jase NP: Aimee Mann, "Driving With One Hand On The Wheel" ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 Jan 2000 00:48:15 EST From: DeadShark@aol.com Subject: And, yay, everyone said unto everyone else... Hello friends and non-acquaintances, After a much needed(ha!) vacay, I've returned to a list that I hardly recognize. OK, it looks pretty much the same, but I am little confuddled about all of the bickering. I like a good flame every now and then just as much as anyone, but I think we've gone a bit overboard here. I just want to reiterate what Jase said before... this is a list that, when you and I joined it, told us off-topic posting was allowed. The old adage "Don't believe everything you read" does not apply here. Our trusted Support-System papa wasn't pulling our legs. He really meant the things he said in that "Welcome" e-mail. And as much as this list is fueled by us, Jase is the guy with the rule book. It's a pretty thin rule book, too. I've seen some artist's renderings! Anyways, if you like only on-topic lists, go join one or start one up yourself. I guarantee no one's feelings will be hurt. Especially not evil lurkers like me. Hey, it's all in fun right? Right. Love and Can't we all just barely notice each other?, Nora p.s. I'm reminded of Gene Wilder yelling in Young Frankenstein "What's the matter with you people?!? I was joking!! Can't anyone take a joke anymore?!?" NP: Bic Runga - "Drive" ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #22 ***********************************