From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V3 #20 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, January 26 2000 Volume 03 : Number 020 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Another major label merger... [TaliaK@aol.com] Where's The Love? [Juvenilia@aol.com] Re: It's not about Aimee, or Liz [AWeiss4338@aol.com] RE: Liz in Aus? ["Steven Adams" ] Re: Aimee in "Big Lebowski?" [BobDsn@aol.com] Re: Another major label merger... [Gabriel Peterson ] thread-o-rama [Craig King ] bathroom tango/luna ["Dana Polachowski" ] Exile re-issue [Andy Peters ] David Bowie / Ford F-150 ["John Boyd" ] other good singers ["Brian P. Falk" ] now I'm confused [Ken_Davis@putnaminv.com] nada................surf! [Mark McKee ] Re: now I'm confused [tommyk7@excite.com] Re: lifting me into prop position ["pat flynn" ] aimee joke ["pat flynn" ] the first rule of support-system is... [jake ] my first poll of 2000! [Miz Phair ] heads a'spinning... [Shelly ] Goddamn, there's a lot of snow. ["Dennis J. Kim" ] no liz content, just snow [Melissa Leigh ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:26:00 EST From: TaliaK@aol.com Subject: Re: Another major label merger... If something horrible like this were to happen, I would think that it would be cheaper for Liz to just re-record the album with a different label. I don't think Liz would have any trouble getting picked up by someone else (smaller of course). Re-recording (while, yes, causing another delay) with someone else would probably give her more artistic freedom and she could re-record the exact same way as it was first recorded without really having to worry about experimenting with it too much, saving money and time (since she'd most likely be working with a much smaller budget) Whoo... look what a couple of quarters in audio production can do to a girl, a couple of months ago I would have most likely read your part and gone "Damn that would suck" and left it at that =) I know I'm definitely going to be hearing a lot more comments on this subject come class tomorrow, and I know the overwhelming sentiment is going to be that of worry and disgust. My only hope is that the more consolidation that happens (and it's inevitable) the more people involved with the music scenes will begin DIY labels and not get caught up with the Big 6, er, 5, damn, 4. And with the internet it's becoming easier and easier... maybe someday people won't rely on the majors to make it big. Maybe they'll do it themselves. Robin "You look like shit, and the smell is even better. And I feel like shit, and I want to go back to bed." ~Liz Phair ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:42:36 EST From: Juvenilia@aol.com Subject: Where's The Love? Peoples... I just wanted everyone to take note at the fingerpointing and hostility this list has exhibited all of a sudden. Lately, everytime I open a digest, I'm overwhelmed at how everyone is becoming so defensive to the topics on hand (Liz related or otherwise). Granted, I don't post much so many of you are probably wondering who the hell I am or even why you should listen to me. I just thought I'd make everyone aware of what I'm seeing. On a different note... to those of you who have been wondering what the hell I've been doing in terms of my website... I haven't abandoned it (completely, anyhow). I promise an update soon. Sometimes, Robbie ________________________________ THE SLICK DIVIDE http://valmccown.com/lizphair.html ________________________________ NP: DOT ALLISON - Afterglow ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 01:55:35 EST From: AWeiss4338@aol.com Subject: Re: It's not about Aimee, or Liz I agree about Derric and the Domino's. Wonderful album, true story behind it. Claptin gave it his all, yeah he actually was great at one time, and so was Duane Allman. Ironically enough he and Patti Boyd, the woman he desprately wanted on Layla, divorced some years later. Andrea, who still likes some classic rock (Janis Joplin Rules!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:34:42 +1100 From: "Steven Adams" Subject: RE: Liz in Aus? > If you are ever able to get a fair statistical sample TMK, I tried out that experiment, and I think the results would DEFINITELY be statistically insignificant, though I do remember Juliana Hatfield doing the rounds in Sydney at least a few years ago, and she is even less known here IMHO. And we won't even see Liz's new album until its about 2-3 months old (ala WCSE). I wouldn't think it would be viable, it might have been when whipsmart came out. Sally: hypothetically where would be the best place to play at? Melbourne? or Sydney? anywhere else and I would have thought the prospect of a volume of people knowing who she is would be way tooooo low. But then Juliana did it, did any Aussies on the list go? >also, I really hope Liz tours Australia sometime in her career! Is there any way us Aussies on >this list (how many of us are there- anyone else in Adelaide?) can at all help the process of >getting her to come ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:00:43 EST From: BobDsn@aol.com Subject: Re: Aimee in "Big Lebowski?" >i was looking at the info on the movie "the big lebowski," and one aimee >mann was credited as playing the "nihilist." same person?? > >vasant The one and only. She only has a few minutes of screen time though. - -Bob ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:05:23 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Peterson Subject: Re: Another major label merger... I'm very afraid that this will occur. If EMI and TimeWarner merge it will mean that they will have control of 1/3 of all copywrited music (figure that I heard on NPR yesterday). The one thing that makes me less worried about this as about some of the other megamergers recently is that technology is changing in a way that will allow artists to sidestep the major labels even easier. This is in contrast to making movies which cost a ton of money and you need a lot of backing just to pull off Blair Witch stuff much less what most movies are made for. (Kurt Vonnegut has some wonderful things to say about how movies blow since they are just nonsense released by the fat cats so they can get fatter as opposed to artistic expression) The biggest advantage that major labels have now is distribution and advertising. With the internet, distribution won't be as much of a problem so hopefully there will still be music available in twenty years that isn't purely the money-making, choreographed-dancing, label-made bands to suck up all the money that year and be made fun of for years to come. With that big of a hold on copyrights, look for EMI/TimeWarner to play a huge role with what's going to happen with MP3's and all that jazz. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:13:37 -0800 (PST) From: Gabriel Peterson Subject: She's a man Two songs which come to mind where Liz is singing as someone else are Big Tall Man and Baby Got Going although I am only assuming about BGG but it really sounds like it's coming from a guy. Gabe __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:29:09 -0800 (PST) From: Craig King Subject: thread-o-rama Well, here's my responses to all those threads that were posted yesterday. I'll try to keep it as short as possible. >>I was wondering if all of ya could post like your 2 favorite cds (excluding Ms. Phair) and the reasons why they are so good, so I (and the rest of the list) could check them out.<< Only 2? Man, that's tough, but here goes: 1. The Doors - Strange Days: A haunting, riveting journey through the mind of Jim Morrison. This album still gives me the chills today, and is one of the best albums ever made, IMO. 2. Stone Temple Pilots - Purple: My favorite band and their best album. A wild journey through the history of rock from blues to folk to metal to pure in-your-face rock. >>To start a thread, which celebrities do you hold in high regard, like you hold Liz?<< I don't really hold too many celebs in high regard, but there are a few. For me it's Harrison Ford, Val Kilmer and Meg Ryan. >>Q. If you could only listen to one Liz song for the rest of your life, what would it be?<< Well, it would have to be Blood Keeper, because I'd be a wreck, obsessed and insane having to only listen to one song for the rest of my life no matter who it was! Seriously, if I had to choose it would be Stratford-On-Guy, my favorite Liz song. >>a new thread? What about the songs Liz sings in irst person, but from the voice of another? Here’s my thread… including South Dakota and Conversation Overheard Between Two Bouncers, what do you think Liz is trying to say through the voice of these other characters? Do you think it relates to her?<< I think these "first person songs" are Liz's chance to be someone else. She's always said that when she writes songs in her bedroom she can be anyone she wants to be. I think these songs are her chance to do just that, along with some real life experiences being thrown in there. Craig NP: Led Zeppelin - Coda __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 07:57:15 -0800 From: "Dana Polachowski" Subject: bathroom tango/luna > BTW: when anyone uses a public bathroom do they not touch anything like me? > i flush with my foot. use a paper towel to activate the faucets, roll out > more paper towels, and press the hand dryer. then i use the paper towel to > push the soap dispenser. and i use it to open the door and then have to hold > the door with my foot why i try to throw the towel away. GOD! i'm as > compulsive as Rosanne. > this is my procedure exactly. once in awhile i might throw in an elbow to get paper towels.... and it's usually sort of a choreographed sequence; i hear that one very famous strauss waltz in my head the whole time.... just like in "clockwork orange." KB: right on!! OK, i'm gonna throw some astro-know at y'all: our lovely liz has the moon in cancer. this means that she is ultraconcerned with all types of emotionality, usually in a really personal and subjective way. it also indicates a really strong need for roots (marriage, family) and closeness. and this is interesting; here are some other musicians with moon in cancer: kate bush, ani difranco, jewel, courtney love, and joni mitchell. this is the short list, but can you see some similarities in terms of presenting deep and quirky emotional "truths" that are very personal? YEAH!! dp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 10:12:32 -0800 (PST) From: Andy Peters Subject: Exile re-issue Capitol Records' re-issue of "Exile in Guyville" doesn't appear to have any unreleased tracks on it. Andy Peters __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 13:58:02 EST From: "John Boyd" Subject: David Bowie / Ford F-150 If you like Aimee Mann so much please join the Aimee Mann mailing list. I have. Guess what they talk about there - Aimee Mann, her new ST, links to her new song Susan, her former band, Bachelor No. 2, etc. Sorry no Liz Phair there. I'm on a Glock mailing list and guess what gets posted there ? Certainly not Liz Phair. Nor Aimee Mann. What about the Ford F-150 digest ? The David Bowie mailing list ? Don't get me wrong - its perfectly fine to introduce music you think other people might like. Like NIN or OK Computer or anything else. But 50 people writing 50 sentences each, every day about Aimee Mann; its abit much. Thats what the NP (Now Playing) is for. If I get any flack about this email I'II start posting about Fatboy Slim. Every day. JFB ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:57:44 -0500 From: "Brian P. Falk" Subject: other good singers i know it's not liz phair, but you know who has a really pretty voice? kate smith. i still remember listening to her sing "god bless america" before the flyers games back in the 70's. yep she really could sing. brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:28:19 -0500 From: Ken_Davis@putnaminv.com Subject: now I'm confused I'm curious...Whenever other artists are compared/contrasted or whatever with Liz...at least 95% are white women -> the Stones represent the other 5%? In fact the comparisons are usually made between Liz and other attractive, white, female artists. Even when expressing disdain with other artists, it is usually reserved for Jennifer Lopez, Christina Aguilera and their ilk. According to CDNow, people who bought albums by LIZ PHAIR have also bought these albums: Amps - Pacer Olivia Newton-John: Vol. 2-Greatest Hits Frank Zappa: Strictly Genteel Sarah Mclachlan: Surfacing Barenaked Ladies: Stunt etc... prompting the question: Which list member will cop to buying that Olivia Newton John CD? or Where the hell is Aimee Mann on that list? or even Did CDNow order too many Frank Zappa CDs and they are trying to unload them on everybody???!! Usually when artists who are not attractive, white and female are brought up, it is limited to a general expression of pleasure or disdain...no great effort is made to compare/contrast their musical stylings with those of Liz. Perhaps it's because this is what the music press do: lump performers together into easy-to-digest categories. It's much easier to try to describe an artists music in relationship with another artist: "she's like PJ Harvey but more sexy than menacing" than starting from scratch. Who has way too much time on their hand and wants an upload of every list members CD collection to see which other artists most frequently occur. I would bet big money (like 5 bucks) that it would not be by Aimee Mann, Alannis Morissette, Garbage, Tori Amos, PJ Harvey or Juliana Hatfield. It would probably be the White Album...my guess. Ken D - - who is going to see Kids in the Hall instead of Aimee Mann in Boston in the next month ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 14:23:49 -0800 (PST) From: Mark McKee Subject: nada................surf! Great band. I'd like to talk about that book the "Cat in the Hat" by DR. SEUSS. I'm thinking of doing a book report on it in my college literature class but I was wondering if there were any bizarre drug references in it? I'd like to base my entire thesis on it. I'm thinking the green eggs MUST mean something. By the way, just in case no one told you....... DON'T EAT THE YELLOW SNOW! Mark __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:01:51 -0800 (PST) From: tommyk7@excite.com Subject: Re: now I'm confused Ken Davis has the beginnings of what seems to be a good argument, but I don't really see where he's going with it - i.e. What was his point? First, Liz cannot be accurately compared with other artists because she's so unique. There really isn't anyone I could honestly say that sounds even remotely like her, musically or lyric-wise. BUT, if you had to compare, of course you would use a white female. Black women do not sound like Liz (Lauryn Hill, Tracy Chapman) and male singers really don't either (Twisted Sister, Quiet Riot). The CDNow albums Ken referenced are only based on sales. I noticed that EIG is currently being offered for only $8.38 - maybe recent buyers were loading up on discount CDs - hence those obscure titles. Here are the artists that CDNow lists as bands that influenced Liz: Jesus and Mary Chain Rolling Stones Joni Mitchell Patti Smith ...and here are the ones listed as "similar" to Liz: PJ Harvey S.F. Seals Veruca Salt Kristin Hersh Throwing Muses Alan-ass Silver Jews Lisa Germano Breeders Mary Lou Lord Pavement Beck Guided By Voices So, obviously, this is a flawed list. I sense that some of your frustration comes directly from the members of this mailing list. But again - it comes down to demographics. I would bet that most of the members on this list are white (95%). Also, I believe that the majority are female (55-60%) - I'm guessing the lurkers are up around 70%. If you throw in an average age (25) and socio-economic background (middle - upper middle class), you will find that a whole lot of financially secure white women in their twenties listen to decent number of white, female (and yes, attractive), artists. This is a trend that has been going on for a number of years now and will certainly continue. There are a host of reasons for this, but we all know that female musicians are getting recognized much more today and that they are making some great music. Since knowledgeable music jounalists see Liz as a trend-setter for women's music, it is not uncommon to relate new solo, white female acts to her because it is a form of tribute. The majority of MY music might be male-oriented, but that is not because I eschew female artists - it is a largely a result of the "classic rock" era and the "grunge era" (and some late-80s rap) existing in correlation to the time I was born (1971). I got into Liz via an aberration called "college." I have been exposed to some new music by female artists by direct exposure to this list, and I'm quite sure a lot of that had to do with the listening habits of the members (not counting Lords of Acid). I have brought up several "other" types of bands in posts that I enjoy in the hopes of others concurring with me (Hendrix, P.E., Morrissey) but I realize that I am in the minority. That is fine, because you can't please everyone, and everyone sure as fuck can't please me. TMK NP: Sleater-Kinney, _The Hot Rock_ Look around Do you see anyone for themselves Like you see yourself? So why do you still feel so all alone? - -ECP On Tue, 25 Jan 2000 15:28:19 -0500, Ken_Davis@putnaminv.com wrote: I'm curious...Whenever other artists are compared/contrasted or whatever with Liz...at least 95% are white women -> the Stones represent the other 5%? In fact the comparisons are usually made between Liz and other attractive, white, female artists. Even when expressing disdain with other artists, it is usually reserved for Jennifer Lopez, Christina Aguilera and their ilk. According to CDNow, people who bought albums by LIZ PHAIR have also bought these albums: Amps - Pacer Olivia Newton-John: Vol. 2-Greatest Hits Frank Zappa: Strictly Genteel Sarah Mclachlan: Surfacing Barenaked Ladies: Stunt etc... prompting the question: Which list member will cop to buying that Olivia Newton John CD? or Where the hell is Aimee Mann on that list? or even Did CDNow order too many Frank Zappa CDs and they are trying to unload them on everybody???!! Usually when artists who are not attractive, white and female are brought up, it is limited to a general expression of pleasure or disdain...no great effort is made to compare/contrast their musical stylings with those of Liz. Perhaps it's because this is what the music press do: lump performers together into easy-to-digest categories. It's much easier to try to describe an artists music in relationship with another artist: "she's like PJ Harvey but more sexy than menacing" than starting from scratch. Who has way too much time on their hand and wants an upload of every list members CD collection to see which other artists most frequently occur. I would bet big money (like 5 bucks) that it would not be by Aimee Mann, Alannis Morissette, Garbage, Tori Amos, PJ Harvey or Juliana Hatfield. It would probably be the White Album...my guess. Ken D - who is going to see Kids in the Hall instead of Aimee Mann in Boston in the next month Look around Do you see anyone for themselves Like you see yourself? So why do you still feel so all alone? - -ECP _______________________________________________________ Get 100% FREE Internet Access powered by Excite Visit http://freeworld.excite.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:12:51 GMT From: "pat flynn" Subject: Re: lifting me into prop position >Listen, Pat Flynn, we have all had dreams about sex with Liz, ok??? We… >just … don’t … post… about… it… is it me or do pat flynn and biggerd seem >like the same person? Perhaps, a bored lister doing a little posing? Or >is that so one year ago… > ok yeah well it wasnt sex, cause thats not my style and i thought that maybe it was better than all the other boring crap that is currently in my mailbox, i thought it was romantic and fun and sorry for disturbing the debate about whether or not this crap should be talked about also i am not anyone but who i am even tho people keep telling me that i am cool enough to be two people i just wanna say that i love liz and i want a new cd from her ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:29:31 GMT From: "pat flynn" Subject: aimee joke Why is "one" the loneliest number? I've found that you can clear out a room even faster with a well-placed "number two." ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 16:14:14 -0800 (PST) From: jake Subject: the first rule of support-system is... nathan wrote: >aimee made the tv of millions though. she's a sell-out i >guess. that's what they say about anyone who has more than >8 songs for the soundtrack of a paul thomas anderson film. >how can people endorse a singer who does this? then jase wrote: >How the heck is Aimee a sell-out for being on TV because >she was nominated for an award? She had no control over the >nomination process; she just happened to be looked upon >favorably by the nomination board. >Also, how is she a sell-out for having so many songs on a >soundtrack? She was collaborating with Paul Thomas Anderson >on a project at his request, and he ultimately decided what >would and wouldn't make the cut, how many songs would be >used. It's not like the music itself was compromised in any >way; Aimee in no way compromised her integrity. damn, tell me I'm not the only one who caught the sarcasm in nathan's post. I think someone is getting just a little bit defensive with all these combative posts going around. craig wrote: >To me, it's not really whole songs that are personal by >Liz. Since Liz has said that she tends to mix fantasy >with reality during the writing process, the most personal >lyrics seem to be more certain lines from different songs. this reminded me of something I have been meaning to post about for a while. does anyone else ever find themselves really liking a song (not only liz) just for one lyric? a good example for me is "only son." I really have never gotten into that song very much, but I recently came into possession of wcse sessions (thanks again, seano) and when she sings "daddy, oh, daddy" in place of "goodbye, so long, I'm gone" it grabs me by the heart. that version, with that one little change, ranks much higher on my liz favorites list now. and my advice to anyone who tires of the insane amount of posts that you don't give a shit about and who long for the days when this list was different, better...maybe you could get back to that in some way by getting to know some of the people who's posts you do like. and really, for every weeks worth of digest that has nothing of interest to me, I can usually find one post that makes the week worth it. and wouldn't it be embarrassing if liz was lurking these last few days? "I drive better drunk" jake __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:14:24 -0800 (PST) From: Miz Phair Subject: my first poll of 2000! Hi there- Pollster Paige here. Wondering who everyone's fave artists are right now! As in, who do you listen to the most. Please include your favorite album with the artist, and maybe we can all pick up some new faves! Here's me: 1. Aimee Mann (I'm With Stupid) 2. Liz Phair (EIG)- so close, it should be a tie! but because i just got the M*&^%+0 soundtrack - didn't want to say the word, I gotta give Aims the nod. 3. Holly McNarland (Live Stuff) 4. Jeff Buckley (Grace) 5. Suzanne Vega (Solitude Standing) 6. Ben Folds Five (Whatever and Ever, Amen) 7. Eric Clapton (Layla and Other Assorted Love Songs) 8. PJ Harvey (Four-Track Demos) 9. Beck (Midnight Vultures) 10. Tori Amos (Boys for Pele) Anxious to hear everyone's! p- ===== "And so, for the sake of momentum I'm condemning the future to death so it can match the past." - --Aimee Mann, "Momentum" __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 19:30:42 -0800 From: Shelly Subject: heads a'spinning... Wow...two SSD's in one night... And only one bit of it I feel compelled to reply to. Well, feel comfortable enough with to reply to, how's that for agita? From: Melissa Leigh wrote: Other nonsense: Repeated lines - the only one that bothers me is at the end of Shane when she sings "you've gotta have fear in your heart." i tend to tune out and listen to whatever spanish tv show is going in the background." You know what? I've always liked that repeated verse...especially while driving. It puts me into a weird trance of sorts...*shrug* Like she's trying to get the point across via hypnotism. To me it's groovy. One Liz song only, til death do us part? "The Divorce Song" I never tire of it. And to the guy looking for two favorite albums & why? Melissa Etheridge's debut (1988 ish)~It's got it all. Bitchen guitar riffs, passionate choruses & alot of really great, soulful, insightful lyrics. Talking Heads~"Sand in the Vaseline". This two-disc set features, from my opinion, the Talking Heads at their very best. Okay, enough of that...I'm off to watch The Sopranos. Can't seem to get enough, yet am a bit pissed at the popularity it's quickly gained. God, I'm a selfish one...I hate it when the things I enjoy become media favorites. Makes me just want to scream, "I've been watching it forever!!" *deep breath* Okay, I'm alright now. ~gunshy~ Shelly NP: Joni Mitchell's Blue ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2000 23:21:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Dennis J. Kim" Subject: Goddamn, there's a lot of snow. It took me half an hour to walk a few blocks. Up to my freaking knees. np slanted and enchanted, pavement - --- dennis ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Jan 2000 01:04:25 -0500 From: Melissa Leigh Subject: no liz content, just snow If I hear one more person complain about the snow, he has to buy 2 plane tickets to switch places with me. - ---melissa (the buffalo snow angel) ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V3 #20 ***********************************