From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #312 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Friday, October 22 1999 Volume 02 : Number 312 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Before I forget... [Jason Long ] blah blah blah ["Nicole W." ] Christina Rees' Pieces [Dan ] Re: blah blah blah [Nelsewhere@aol.com] Chick Rock today [Mike Marlatt ] Re: Liz Change [Easter ] Re: blah blah blah [Jason Long ] Re: How to tell if your Liz Phair mailing list is in trouble ["Jennifer R] Tori and Liz ["Morgan Hartsell" ] 10 fav non-Liz artists [Craig King ] Re: chops [Jason Long ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 04:06:55 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Before I forget... One more thing about that Rees article.... Ms. Rees critcized those who can make things happen in the studio, but can't bring the same confidence to performing live, suggesting that such artists aren't worthy. Well, if her set of rules also applies to men, I wonder then what she must think of a band like XTC who no longer even tour due to Andy Partridge's stage fright. I'd really like to hear her try to suggest that they are unworthy somehow as a result. I'd be laughing in her face before she even finished her first sentence. Jase NP: XTC, _Homespun: The Apple Venus Volume One Home Demos_ (This is something Liz should consider doing for her next album: releasing a limited-edition CD several months after the album comes out, consisting of demo versions of each of the songs, along with an elaborate CD booklet containing comments about how each song came to be written and recorded, along with her original handwritten lyrics.) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 11:43:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nicole W." Subject: blah blah blah blah blah blah blah... That is what I see sometimes when I read my SS digest... just words with no meaning... too many words... too little content... blah blah blah... Not saying that it HAS to be Liz content. Just get tired of reading the same posts over and over... blah blah blah... Sometimes if there's an article on the web, I wish people would just put the link to it instead of transcribing it to the list... just personal preference. blah blah blah. That's all for now, i guess. Later, Nicole * * * * * * * * * * * * "Perfect is a fault, and fault lines change." -R.E.M. "Push me and I will resist/ This behavior's not unique" -Pearl Jam "Insanity is super sanity." ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 12:51:35 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Subject: Christina Rees' Pieces I cannot belive that Christina Rees article!! It's outright embarassing. Like - talk about taking two steps BACKWARDS!! You know, if she is soo damn adament about women "sucking" so much, why doesn't she just put down her type-writer, stop writing - quit her day job and find a man to support her, she can then spend the rest of her life breast feeding and cooking meatloafs. I mean, a woman shouldn't really try to fill a man's shoes, should she? God - she sounds like a member of the damn Promise Keepers religion or something... what a sexist bitch - sounds like someone fucked her over and she's venting. Go back to the 16th century hon. Breastfeeding, Dan. (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)*(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) "She's still alive, but I am sure, that all the stars belong to her." -HOLE. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 14:52:30 EDT From: Nelsewhere@aol.com Subject: Re: blah blah blah I dont post much, and when I do, it is Liz content, or something i recieved in a mail on Liz, I'd just like to say Nicole is right, let's try to a system or if we dont, lets use it, heres just a though: PoP-Pointless opinion post SLC- Some Liz Content OaC- Other Artists content WSC- Website Content Just a suggestion, because I've never noticed it, but then again, im not one for detail, so please people, just think about it ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 17:44:11 -0400 From: Mike Marlatt Subject: Chick Rock today Alright, although this Rees chick is a bit of your typical "take shock value over fact" slimeball journalist, I'm not jumping over the fence and yelling that she's completely wrong. In regards to Liz comments: Say what you will, although I wasn't graced with an in person live performance, I'm simply basing this on every TV performance she's ever made. She's better than she was, but she is still a below average live performer. Her voice shakes. You can see in her eyes that if she doesn't concentrate like crazy she's going to screw up. And she basically never improvises. I've seen Juliana Hatfield 5 times and Tanya Donnely twice (once with Belly). I've heard a couple of Liz boots. Ladies and Gentleman, there's no comparison. Liz is average live, at best. But what Rees missed was artists like Hatfield and Donnely and Hirsch (and the Deals) who met that image of looking natural with the guitar and going fucking nuts on stage. Christ, the Belly show at the Commodore up here in 1995 still goes down as the greatest show I ever saw (ahead of half a dozen DMBand shows). Tanya and Gail we're all over the place, sucking in the crowd, looking like ROCK STARS. Is S-K even on the same page as far as talent, lyrics, and stage presence? They're not even in the same book. PJ Harvey is. Courtney Love is (and Melissa too that little Canook babe). Right there with Chrissy Hynde and Susanna Hoffs (of Bangles fame). S-K is just a different type of music. Just like psychadelic rock turned into country rock after Woodstock. I love Jimi Hendrix but it's not like that leaves me wanting to piss all over the Eagles parade for not being as progressive or inspiring. There just different. I can't say I disagree that the S-K/riot grrl thing is a bit of a fad though (and I even have and old Excuse Seventeen CD). Flame-delete, Flame-delete. MIKE MARLATT Investment Advisor NESBITT BURNS INC. Work Tel: 604-443-1622 Fax: 604-443-1490 Toll Free: 1-888-346-3133 ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 15:45:10 -0700 (PDT) From: Easter Subject: Re: Liz Change Al wrote: >Whew!!! Finally had enough time to really think this >out, why I am uncomfortable truly embracing the new >Liz and now that I sorted it all out, just had to >vent a little. 'Cause we're too afraid to accept changes even if it's for the better? You can't always live in the past, but the past helps you in the future. Damn...something I picked up from my counselor earlier today. It's not easy of course, but it's a part of growing up and explore the new roads that are ahead of you. Ohki...time for poetry and head to bed. Katie ();) NP: Dixie Chicks_Fly __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:00:09 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: blah blah blah At 02:52 PM 10/21/1999 EDT, Nelsewhere@aol.com wrote: >I dont post much, and when I do, it is Liz content, or something i recieved >in a mail on Liz, I'd just like to say Nicole is right, let's try to a system >or if we dont, lets use it, heres just a though: >PoP-Pointless opinion post >SLC- Some Liz Content >OaC- Other Artists content >WSC- Website Content > >Just a suggestion, because I've never noticed it, but then again, im not one >for detail, so please people, just think about it As the owner of this list, allow me to point out that off-topic posting is permitted and that isn't going to change. In the introductory message everyone receives when signing up for the list, this is clearly stated. If one has a problem with this policy, perhaps it's best that they try to find a strictly on-topic list or other forum instead, rather than join an off-topic one and take it upon themselves to try to change the rules. This list has functioned very well under its current set of rules for the past three years. There have been occasional problems, but that has had more to do with the individuals themselves than any rules about list conduct. I really don't see what good bitching about a lack of Liz content does. If you don't like the threads being discussed, start one of your own that talks about something that interests you about Liz, her work, or any other subject. In my opinion, that's a lot more productive than grumbling about posts made by others that don't interest you, especially when they likely interest a great number of other subscribers. Face it, it's not like Liz is touring right now, and it's not like she's released anything new in a while. There simply isn't a lot to discuss right now, without rehashing things that have already been talked about in the past. When Liz is more active again, there will be more Liz-related content on the list. The two tend to go hand in hand. What are we going to do now, talk about the CK billboards ad nauseam for the next few months? I think not. Chances are that the threads that don't interest you do interest many other people. If you don't like certain topics, you can either use your scroll or delete keys; no one's forcing you to read them. Many people here *do* like the off-topic threads; I count myself among them. As others have said in the past, such postings allow us to read about and discover artists that we likely wouldn't have heard about otherwise. It serves a really good function in introducing us all to new music. Also, it allows to discuss other things that are important to us, and hopefully others as well. It allows for a more personal connection among the members of this community than a strictly on-topic forum would. Bottom line, I love this list and I really don't see much need for change. We're fine as we are right now. Cheers, Jase (who seems to always vent whenever he posts, which would likely make it hard for others to believe that he is in the midst of one of the happiest times of his life right now) NP: Sheryl Crow, _The Globe Sessions_ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 19:24:36 -0500 From: "Jennifer R Rupe" Subject: Re: How to tell if your Liz Phair mailing list is in trouble >Subject: How to tell if your Liz Phair mailing list is in trouble. > >The list consists mainly of everyone's favourite non-Liz songs. Hmmm, let's see - can you listen to Liz 24-7? I can't... It is always good to get the scoop on what other Liz phans listen to... Opens up your ears to new things! MY Favorite Top Ten Non-Liz Faves: (1) REM (2) Luna (3) Yo La Tengo (4) PJ Harvey (5) The Pixies (6) Jon Spencer Blues Explosion (7) Luscious Jackson (8) Stereolab (9) Grant Lee Buffalo (10) The B-52's Jenni ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 22:17:28 EDT From: "Morgan Hartsell" Subject: Tori and Liz I'm sorry, but I really like the idea of Tori and Liz together on an album!!! I got to thinking about the inevitable second album. I'm not sure what it would be called, (Exile Under The Pink???? Boys For Spaceegg???) but I know what songs would be featured. Pretty Good Fuck Cloud On My Dick The Wrong Queen Go West, Anastasia Putting The Headache On Explain Iieee To Me Cruel Son Precious Springs Proffessional Sailor Divorce For Her Mr. Zebra, Be True Tell Me You Like Me and a Gun Soap Star Josephine Dead Spark Can anyone else come up with anymore? Frankly I think it would be cool to combine Liz and Tori into one person!!! This Tori/Liz combination would be none other than...... Lori Phamos!!!!!!! I would buy all of Lori Phamos' albums. I bet she'd be controversial as all hell. Latuh, Morgan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1999 20:28:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: 10 fav non-Liz artists Hey, another good thread! >>MY Favorite Top Ten Non-Liz Faves<< Here are my top 10 favorite non-Liz artists: 1. The Doors 2. Stone Temple Pilots 3. Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers 4. Alice In Chains 5. Led Zeppelin 6. Beastie Boys 7. Rage Against The Machine 8. Megadeth 9. Metallica 10. Creedence Clearwater Revival Craig NP: Stone Temple Pilots - Core ===== __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Oct 1999 00:08:28 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: chops dp wrote: >WOW. whoa.... overall a fairly decent article, i think. biggest flaw is >that she overlooks quite a few female artists who DO indeed have chops just >to make her point that too many don't. oh well. After reading the article by Christina Rees and some of the subsequent postings here, one thing has occured to me: what is so important about having chops anyway? I mean, sure, there's nothing wrong at all with being able to play, but this is rock and roll we're talking about; it's hardly the same as if we were talking about folk, classical or jazz music (or even pop, for that matter). What I mean here is, like, some of the greatest rock songs of all time consist of a minimal number of chords and are sloppily played, such as "Wild Thing" or "Louie Louie." Yet the rush I get from listening to those songs is nothing short of incredible. I'm not moved nearly in the same way by something that is meticulously produced and arranged. I guess that's why I consider something like the Stones' earlier work more "rock" than the stuff they're releasing now; that rawness is part of my own definition of rock and roll (not that it's strictly limited to that, of course). Another thing, it's not like the Sex Pistols could really play, and they're undoubtedly one of the more historically-significant bands I can think of. What they and others were doing at that time changed a lot of the rules, and I consider their music to have far more immediacy than, say, the Eagles or Fleetwood Mac (who I do like), bands that were hugely popular at that time. It's not that I'm attracted to amateurishness or anything, but I do like music that feels fresh and immediate. What defines for me if something is good or not is whether it makes me feel something or gives me that certain blissful rush. I do get that from a variety of sources, and not only from "rock" music. Another thing, I usually get the rush from the music itself and it's the lyrics that make me think or feel, although sometimes, just the way words are strung together or a thought is phrased is enough to bring about the bliss. With Liz, a lot of the time I get it all at once, which is something that cannot be beat. >i like that she can see the >sleater-kinney phenom for what it is: a bunch of chicks making a bunch of >noise and "yay" for them. and that, come on, angst-and-ramble suck as an >artistic statement. Well, it seemed to work for Nirvana. ;) (Just kidding, everyone should know by now that I really do love them.) And honestly, there is a lot more to Sleater-Kinney than "angst." A lot of their songs are as much about joy as anything else, particularly the joy of playing music (as expressed in songs such as "Words and Guitar"). Sleater-Kinney are one of the few bands that really matter to me right now, which is why I can't help but want to passionately defend them. Really, I can't understand why people are so critical of their musicianship; they've improved immensely since the days of their previous bands (Excuse 17, Heavens to Betsy) and show an increasing skill in writing hooks while still maintaining the immediacy of their earlier music. Not an easy feat, in my opinion, and one they should be recognized for. It really bothers me to see people dismiss them as some sort of fad; after all, this was the same kind of thing people were saying about Liz circa _Whip-Smart_'s release. All I know is that I got hooked on Sleater-Kinney's music long before the media latched on following _Dig Me Out_'s release. It took just one listen of _Call the Doctor_ and I knew I had found something special. It floored me on first listen; few records have that kind of impact on me. Posting too much, Jase NP: Radiohead, _The Bends_ ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #312 ************************************