From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #310 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, October 20 1999 Volume 02 : Number 310 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: Women can't rock and other fallacies ["April Haitsuka" ] Fave Non --Liz tunes [Greg Bishop ] hey dude hes the stallion [Biggerd000@aol.com] ... The Un-Liz List [Juvenilia@aol.com] RE:rees article ["Brian P. Falk" ] top ten and more [odonnell ] fave songs [Kelly Warner ] chops ["Dana Polachowski" ] Lookin through a glass onion ["Nicole W." ] Boredom ["Morgan Hartsell" ] mas favorite songs ["Sarah =^..^=" ] (no subject) [TADude9999@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V2 #309 [Andy/Seth Subject: Re: Women can't rock and other fallacies Hello! We have a student of the Katie Roiphe school of antifeminist-feminism. And the other guitarist, Carrie >Brownstein, well, she was all right. But the only reason her coolness was >conceded was because she loped around stage and enjoyed the instrument in >her hands with the ease of a guy, unlike her bandmates I've never heard SK live, but I am still listening to _The Hot Rock_. If there's one way to make noise, attack a critically lauded act as a feminist token. Real rock heroes were >rangy, entitled, and male. Guitars seemed a natural extension of their >bodies; Oh the phallus rears its ugly head (no pun intended). That's the oldest guitar cliche... >For example, Liz Phair's 1993 debut, Exile in Guyville, was lyrically raw >and crammed with loose, warbling hooks -- the kind of record that proved >some women could do it as well as or better than men. But then she showed up >at David Letterman's studio and delivered the album's punchy opener "6'1" >with hollow, shaky uncertainty and painfully real stage fright -- That was five years ago. A great overgeneralization of Liz's performance abilities to date. I could go on... This is just a nasty article, typical reacationary commentary that sounds better coming from a woman than a man. (Gee, could you imagine a man getting away with writing some of these lines?) April ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 02:19:12 -0400 From: Mark Henninger Subject: unlistenable "Music writers across the country have trumpeted Sleater-Kinney's victorious leap over old pop constructs toward a new approach to rock and roll ever since 1997's Dig Me Out; they wax on about how this is one of the most important bands of the '90s. But Sleater-Kinney's ascendancy feels more like fad than fact. Months after the release of the group's third album, it's doubtful that anyone listens to the unlistenable The Hot Rock anymore. The fact is, Sleater-Kinney hasn't so much managed to rethink rock as to drag it to an amateur slumber party, leaving things like musicianship and hooks and cohesion behind." IMHO: This article in its entirety constitutes one of the most misguided and offensive pieces I've encountered on women in rock. I will comment merely on the excerpt above. How anyone could see S-K live and not be rocked by them simply isn't into good rock music. How anyone could deem _The Hot Rock_ "unlistenable" is unfathomable to me. Sleater-Kinney are (and I think that a few of you out there will agree with me) an amazing band on recorded disc who are even more amazing live. Those of you who have not heard them should not believe a word you read from that article. How about this for a list of five favorite non-Liz songs: One More Hour ~ Sleater-Kinney Little Babies ~ Sleater-Kinney Anonymous ~ Sleater-Kinney The End Of You ~ Sleater-Kinney God Is A Number ~ Sleater-Kinney Fuck you, Christina Rees... ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 01:04:07 -0700 (MST) From: Greg Bishop Subject: Fave Non --Liz tunes Ah, more great things to distract me from writing, like this new non-liz fav songs list thread: Not in order and subject to change daily: 1: Tomorrow Never Knows - Beatles 2: Red Eyed Troll - The Muffs 3: Camel Walk - Southern Culture On The Skids 4: Mood Indigo - Duke Ellington 5: She Watch Channel Zero - Public Enemy 6: Disguises - The Who 7: Second Coming - The Fibonaccis 8: Mission To Moscow - Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys 9: California Tuffy - Geraldine Fibbers 10: Once In A Lifetime - Talking Heads Also: Sun Ra, Junior Brown, Louvin Brothers, Shonen Knife, Tarnation, Slim Gaillard, Iggy, Trailer Bride, Sex Pistols, B-52s, Timbuk 3, Bowie, Oingo Boingo, Cab Calloway, 13th Floor Elevators, and early 1960s ska bands... Fave Liz: Go West Any like-minded people out there on these songs/ music? Greg B. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 04:55:15 EDT From: Biggerd000@aol.com Subject: hey dude hes the stallion college radio rules fuck top 40 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 04:55:59 EDT From: Juvenilia@aol.com Subject: ... The Un-Liz List Just adding to the thread.... My favorite NON-Liz songs: 0001. Aimee Mann - I've Had It 0002. Jen Trynin - Writing Notes 0003. Heather Nova - Ruby Red 0004. Dido - I'm No Angel 0005. Dave Matthews Band - Satellite 0006. Beth Hart - My Favorite Things 0007. Ani DiFranco - You Had Time 0008. Paula Cole - Tiger 0009. Dar Williams - The Pointless, Yet Poignant, Crisis Of A Co-Ed 0010. Eurythmics - The Last Time Still, Robbie "And when I talk about therapy, I know what people think; That it only makes you selfish and in love with your shrink. But oh, how I love everybody else When I finally got to talk so much about myself." -- D A R W I L L I A M S ................................................... THE SLICK DIVIDE http://valmccown.com/lizphair.html ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 08:12:27 -0400 From: "Brian P. Falk" Subject: RE:rees article in anticipation of the firestorm that the piece regarding female rock musicians will cause, i only wish to assert that music critics suck much, much, much worse than the worst male or female musicians on the planet. and they always will. brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 11:53:01 -0400 From: odonnell Subject: top ten and more this is a very cool liz-related story.....the other night i was eating dinner at my aunt's house and my uncle was teasing my cousin about liking brittany spears. and then he says "you know who i like? liz phair" well i was flipping out. and the album he has is exile not even the more toned down wcse. this is a very prosperous forty something man with a wife and kids. he likes her because he thinks she has something to say. i just couldn't believe it. that really made my evening. you find liz fans in the strangest places. my top ten non-liz songs 1. "Secure Yourself" Indigo Girls 2. "Alison" Elvis Costello 3. "Sweet Jane" Cowboy Junkies 4. "Letters to Elise" The Cure 5. "Lay Down Sally" Eric Clapton 6. "Lover Lay Down" The Dave Mathews Band 7. "The Low Spark of High Heeled Boys" Traffic 8. "Divine Hammer" The Breeders 9. "If I Fell" The Beatles 10. "Little Earthquakes" Tori Amos ~siobhan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:06:26 -0500 From: Kelly Warner Subject: fave songs Here's a current list of my 10 fave non-Liz songs: Moonage Daydream–David Bowie Kooks–David Bowie Alison–Elvis Costello Clear Spot–the Pernice Brothers Holiday Ride–Lydia's Trumpet Within Your Reach–the Replacements Imaginary Love–Rufus Wainwright Spoon–Cibo Matto Say Yes–Elliot Smith Sugarfree Jazz–Soul Coughing ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 12:00:54 -0700 From: "Dana Polachowski" Subject: chops > Found this thanks to the delightful Chickmail. Apparently women can't rock, > at least that's what this person has the nerve to suggest. LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > Girl trouble > Rock and roll is still a man's, man's, man's, man's world > By Christina Rees > WOW. whoa.... overall a fairly decent article, i think. biggest flaw is that she overlooks quite a few female artists who DO indeed have chops just to make her point that too many don't. oh well. i like that she's lookin' for "effortlessness and swagger," which is *exactly* what liz's got.... again, too bad this writer got stuck on sayin' how liz dropped the ball as a performer early on 'cause--guess what?--liz's got it all now.... i think if ms. rees had just taken it a bit further and said "hey, there actually ARE alot of fantastic female musicians out there--they just don't get any fucking CREDIT...." i'd wanna side with her more. still, she makes some really good points. i like that she can see the sleater-kinney phenom for what it is: a bunch of chicks making a bunch of noise and "yay" for them. and that, come on, angst-and-ramble suck as an artistic statement. the other one is that, yeah, no self-respecting male musician would be expected to--or would even *want* to--run around in his underwear to get people to listen. i think madonna's shtick was sorta misinterpreted that way.... she couldn't give a fuck what anyone else was/is doing--she wrote her own lyrics and some of 'em are actually pretty damn good, i.e., "live to tell." anyway, it was all the music biz people who latched onto "ok, corsets and lycra--that's whatcha gotta do..." while flicking cigar ashes and signing-off on their expense accounts.... [the point that that guy from The Church said was *so* great--biz people don't really like music *or* musicians.... christ, i just saw a lita ford video the other day; laughed myself silly...."kiss me deadly," indeed. ] anyway, thanks to whomever posted that article; best thing on here in a long time.... dp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 15:30:22 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nicole W." Subject: Lookin through a glass onion I just remembered I had some kind of dream last night during which I was trying to post to SS but I couldn't manage to type correctly. I don't remember what I was posting. So I'm in this guy's room in my house using his computer cuz he has a dial-up conxn and our ethernet is never going to get fixed. This guy is really funny. He's like so ... straight ... not in the sexuality sense, although he claims to be that, but in the personality sense. I dont' think he smokes or drinks or swears or fights or anything bad. Anyway, like next to his computer he has... a bag of figs. That's funny to me. Anyway, though... to the meat of the post. I'm going to try to do this top songs thing, but what I have to do is just list five songs for each of my fave artists. Here it is: PEARL JAM: WEll I used to say it was every song, but now I realize there ARE a few that just hit me a little harder-- Black, Daughter, Dissident, Corduroy, Last Exit, In My Tree, In Hiding, Faithfull, more... but that's more than five already. REM: Green Grow the Rushes, Maps and Legends, Let Me In, Orange Crush, "Wolves, Lower" BEATLES: Because, Golden Slumbers, Mother Nature's Son, A Day In The Life, Yesterday Okay understand I have way more than five for all these artists, but I'm writing the first five that come to mind... LIZ: May Queen, Mesmerizing, Divorce Song, Strange Loop?, What Makes You Happy, etc etc there are many more... god who started this thread? Its' making me crazy! THERE ARE WAY MORE SONGS THAN THESE FIVE BUT FOR THE SAKE OF MAKING THIS A SHORT-ISH POST, I'll stop writing in caps... uhhh can't form complete sentence... MISCELLANEOUS: Time After Time (C. Lauper), Band On THe Run (Wings), Refugee (T. Petty), Fast Car (T. Chapman), Pretty Noose (Soundgarden... okay this one was so random... it goes to show yout aht I'm writing the first thing that comes to mind, maybe not my fave song) Blah. I have this class I hate, and I never go to lecture, and I have a test on THurs. I can't bring myself to study. This is bad. This post is way fragmenty and I'm going to stop now. Bye, Nicole * * * * * * * * * * * * "Perfect is a fault, and fault lines change." -R.E.M. "Push me and I will resist/ This behavior's not unique" -Pearl Jam "Insanity is super sanity." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 16:02:40 EDT From: "Morgan Hartsell" Subject: Boredom I'm bored as hell, and all I've had to do are think of crazy things. I started thinking about how funny it would be if Liz and Tori Amos were to collaborate on an album!!! I know there are some Tori-fans on this list!!!! What are some songs those two would come up with? Here's what I came up with: Uncle Juarez Strange Poof Girl!Girl!Girl! The Happy Flower Me and a Gun-shy Cornflake Girls'Room Alice Spring Haze Johnny's Strength Polyester Mommy Glory of The Seven Veils Bliss is Nothing Baby Got Your Cocaine Waiting For The Black-Dove of January Dance of the 1,000 Oceans Space Dogs of L.A. Big Tall Waitress Shitloads of Honey That would be a hell of an album, huh??? It would be called "To Guyville and Back". Or Too much time on my hands, Morgan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 14:27:51 PDT From: "Sarah =^..^=" Subject: mas favorite songs other favorites (outside of liz songs): 1) the trashcan sinatras--"hayfever" 2) the minders--"yeah yeah yeah" 3) the the--"this is the day" 4) the cure--"high" 5) the magnetic fields--"strange powers" 6) the magnetic fields--"born on a train" 7) morrissey--"tomorrow" 8) belle & sebastian--"the state i am in" 9) joy division--"these days" 10) velocity girl--"a chang" sarah d. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:05:50 EDT From: TADude9999@aol.com Subject: (no subject) <> This statement is so wrong, of course it could end up being true but I'm sure it depends on how insecure someone might be with growing older(which we all do every day) themselves. I sure as hell hope LP is doing what she does best at age 40 and beyond. That would be so cool. From my point of view age is irrelevant in everything we do. Age is a state of mind, no more no less. If you don't believe this you will become like the people you surround yourself with through the course of your life, which usually means old for most of us. I don't mean to generalize here but I've seen it happen all to often. <> Although this can be true. I think if the music is good,it's good regardless if it's the same as the last 10 CD's or not. This , again can be very true but is too much of a generalization for me. <> This to me is asinine, if anyone followed or read about the career of the Stones it would be hard not to see that they are exactly the same as they were in the sixties with shitloads of money. My opinions anyway. FADE TO BLACK TAD ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 19:51:27 -0400 From: Andy/Seth Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #309 My top ten (in no order) favourite non-LIZ songs: 1) 1,000 Oceans by Tori 2) Raspberry Swirl by Tori Amos 3) Dear God by Sarah McLachlan 4) Possession by Sarah 5) Hold On by Sarah 6) Life is Sweet by Natalie Merchant 7) Smoke by Natalie Imgruglia 8) Sullen Girl by Fiona Apple 9) We DO What We Can by Sheryl Crow 10) Uninvited (demo version) by Alanis Morissette and sorry, one more 11) Ana's SOng (Open Fire) (the unreleased acoustic version ) By Silverchair. And my favourite Liz song: Whipsmart. Andy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1999 21:52:15 -0500 From: Vasant Ramamurthy Subject: Re: Article in Dallas Observer - bit about Liz, Lilith Fair >Found this thanks to the delightful Chickmail. Apparently women can't rock, >at least that's what this person has the nerve to suggest. LIES!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > >Girl trouble >Rock and roll is still a man's, man's, man's, man's world >By Christina Rees Ok, this article was a bit...stupid. It seems like the writer is a bit jaded with the females that consistently get praise (but deserve it, like Patti Smith, Kim Gordon, and Sleater-Kinney). She basically used the article as a forum to bash the female artists that she's getting sick of. Lame... Vasant - ----- The Wave of Mutilation: the very best in indie rock/pop & other classics Sundays, 2-4 pm. (central) Live in RealAudio at http://kwur.wustl.edu Playlists at http://artsci.wustl.edu/~vramamur/playlists.html ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #310 ************************************