From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #250 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, August 25 1999 Volume 02 : Number 250 Today's Subjects: ----------------- firsts & stuff... [Shelly ] 2 things. . . [Exile217@aol.com] Maybe Jamie Likes Being a Bitch ["M.L. Magdalene" ] The Aimee Mann Syndrome [Juvenilia@aol.com] Peace.......... ["Sally Mae" ] Sophie B. Hawkins [Dan ] Sophie is...(among other things) [Shelly ] sophie b. hawkins & britney spears ["Morrise, Jason" ] Sophie B. Hawkins ["Kristin Arnold" ] Re: fuck alan-ass and her groupie-fuck heads [Meredith Robbins ] Sophie B. Hawkins ["Mark Schmidt" ] more Sophie B. Hawkins ["Mark Schmidt" ] RE: support-system-digest V2 #249 [Kelly Warner ] Re: support-system-digest V2 #249 [AMCFLND1@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V2 #248 [Dennis Junkoo Kim ] sophie b. ["dana polachowski" ] it's like this and like that and like this and uh... ["Nicole W." ] Re: it's like this and like that and like this and uh... [MLevine171@aol.] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 22:26:38 -0700 From: Shelly Subject: firsts & stuff... From: Nfa2ati0n@aol.com Subject: why liz? "...which sort of makes me wonder how all the people on here got into her... in other words, how is it that the people on the list were introduced to liz while the rest of the world remained semi-oblivious? what posessed you guys to buy your first liz phair cd? " Well...easy for me, it was a mistake! I was in looking for a particular song, not knowing the title or the musician and I bought "Exile In Guyville", thinking it was someone else (If you can even begin to believe it...Sophie B. Hawkins) I know, sort of weird, huh? ~gunshy~ Shelly ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 02:17:21 EDT From: Exile217@aol.com Subject: 2 things. . . (1) >Who the hell is Sophie B. Hawkins? >What's she done, and why should I care? didn't see sing "Damn, I Wish I Was Your Lover"? I think so, but that was so long ago. . . (2) I like to recieve and read the digest, but lately it's just a bunch of bitching. i'd skip it altogether, but I know there's probably something important I'd miss. It's kinda like the comparison someone made complaining about having to listen to certain artists while shopping (btw, i'm glad they play halfway decent music in my work. sarah mclachlan, rem, toad, madonna in a grocery store:) anyways, it's almost the same thing having to read thru the bashing to get the relevent stuff. i hate it. i hate people arguing. please stop. liz b. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 00:00:39 PDT From: "M.L. Magdalene" Subject: Maybe Jamie Likes Being a Bitch >but all I am saying is if u were a good person u'd respect other's > >thoughts, instead of bashing them. I guess ur just a bitch then Maybe Jamie likes being a bitch. I like being a bitch. I think i actually respect people who have the power to be a bitch more..then like the rest of them... >That's why so many people are killed, because of stupid little >things that people fight over, No man..i don't think that's it... >if you drop the 'alan-ass defense crusade' everyone else, including >me Um...Jamie seems pretty cool and everything..but she's not like...our leader... >I THINK BRITTANY HAS LOADS MORE TALENT THAN ALAN-ASS-- I don't think i would go so far as to say that.... >"shutup, you," and simply running away. Any other suggestions? I would just stick to that one if i were you. I don't suppose the world has stopped moving?-- M _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 2:43:44 -0400 From: "Jeffrey Kern" Subject: enough already DAD! (Jase) The kids are fighting again...make 'em stop..... Allright this is getting ridiculous. Everybody who has an opinion on Alannis has had more than enough digest space to air it out. If any of you want to continue this PLEASE take it to private e-mail. I feel like I'm reading a digest from a friggin high school debate class. No, make that junior high school. Jase, in no way do I want to see you 'censor' this list. I don't think that is called for and I know you don't want to do that. Usually the list is pretty self-police-ing and hopefully this thread will burn out now. So all y'all grow up and cut the crap. Really. And for all you new people, most of the list is pretty mellow and not really like this most of the time. Yeah we all go off sometimes (my last rant was last week on a Nirvana/Hendrix basher) so I know how strong feelings can run over music. But this back and forth thing with multiple quotes and I said/she said/he said crap is really juvenile. You know if Liz was to read this list at random ( I know that prob doesn't! happen) she would prob be thinking what assholes some of us are. And of course this post will probably elicit some sorta response but I had to get my disgust out, so there it is. jaime wrote: >ANY FURTHER MESSAGES SENT TO MY PERSONAL EMAIL ADDRESS DEFENDING >ALAN-ASS WILL BE USED IN A NOT-NICE WAY.... POST THIS SHIT TO THE LIST--- AND >ACTUALLY--- DONT POST IT TO THE LIST THEY ARE SICK OF THIS SHIT TOO. Jaime don't be mad at me for saying this but, I am usually in line with most of what you write/stand for and all that stuff. But since you are at the heart of this, suck it up and 'take it in the personal mailbox' ,cuz yes THE LIST IS SICK OF IT !!!! Is it 4:20 yet? DarkSide oftheMoon hilofer@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 04:55:48 EDT From: Juvenilia@aol.com Subject: The Aimee Mann Syndrome Hello people.... Again, I lurk from the shadows in order to hopefully enlighten those are...well, not enlightened. And while its not Liz related, it is music related. In the response to Michael's question... > Who the hell is Sophie B. Hawkins? > What's she done, and why should I care? > > Reason I ask is that I've seen her latest album in stores, and I can't > figure out how a cello player gets an explicit content sticker. > > Michael Sophie B. Hawkins has been in the music business for quite awhile and her debut album "Tongues & Tails" (1992) sparked the controversial and extremely popular "Damn, I Was Your Lover". Her 1994 album, "Whaler" also showcased another radio hit, "As I Lay Me Down" (which holds the record with Billboard as one of the longest running hit singles of all time). And while Sophie has received grand amounts of radio success, her latest effort has been hit with what I like to call the Aimee Mann Syndrome. Completed almost two years ago, but just released in July... "Timbre" is Sophie's third album. The reason it has an explicit content sticker is due to... well, explicit content, mainly due to the track "The Darkest Childe". It's a great song, but saturated with powerful statements (i.e. "You're the one who raped your superintendent..."). Apparently, there was an edited version released to stores like Wal-Mart, but I have to yet to find it. I can't really compare her music to anyone else, which is a good thing or else she would sound like anyone else. Oh, and another thing... Sophie isn't just a cello player. She also plays the piano, the drums, the orimba, the guitar and a slew of other intruments. Very talented lady who unfortunately gets very little credit as of late. I hope that fills you in a bit... however, I can't help you out with the "why should I care" part. Sometimes, Robbie THE SLICK DIVIDE http://valmccown.com/lizphair.html NP: DIDO - No Angel (to whom I saw perform last night at Bimbo's in San Francisco.... AWESOME concert. BUY THIS ALBUM.) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 03:41:13 -0700 From: "Sally Mae" Subject: Peace.......... Hi everyone, I'll just like to remind people that the western world actually has freedom of speech! We're not living in Oceania in 1984!! So, just because you disagree with someone, doesn't mean you should insult them *please don't crucify me for this post!*! I'm not a big fan of Alanis Morisette and frankly, am a bit annoyed at Garbage's decision to tour with her here in Australia as the tickets are bloody expensive (Aus$70- more than a Big Day Out ticker which lasts all day) but that doesn't give me the right to destroy her fans! But I do think she is definately more talented than Britney Spears, the soft porn star,! Also, those posts about Jennifer Lopez and Ricky Martin were spot on in my opinion! Peace people, Sally P.s. I'm seeing Ben Folds Five tonight (Thursday)!!!! "Power is in tearing human minds to pieces and putting them together in new shapes of your choosing." O'Brien-1984 *********************************** chickclick.com http://www.chickclick.com girl sites that don't fake it. http://www.chickmail.com sign up for your free email. *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:28:54 -0400 (EDT) From: Dan Subject: Sophie B. Hawkins Michael asked: >Who the hell is Sophie B. Hawkins? > I am pretty sure she is Canadian..okay..um..I don't know. But, she is most famous for her awesome tune "DAMN, I Wish I Was Your Lover." To refresh yer memory, this song was most likely given its prime exposure when it was appeared as the "Kelly and Dylan Love Theme" on that show um...what was it called - oh ya "Beverly Hills 90210." Everyone remembers the swimming pool scene.. It's a great tune though...that's about the only Sophie B. song I know though. I always get her confused with that Donna Lewis chick though. Don't know why. at any rate, Dan. (*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)*(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*)(*) " I want it NOW!" she said. -HOLE, "Burn Black". ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 05:41:26 -0700 From: Shelly Subject: Sophie is...(among other things) Subject: OT: WTH is Sophie B. Hawkins? "Who the hell is Sophie B. Hawkins? What's she done, and why should I care? Reason I ask is that I've seen her latest album in stores, and I can't figure out how a cello player gets an explicit content sticker." Good question...Sophie ("Damn, I wish I was You Lover" '92, "As I Lay Me Down" '94...fairly decent radio play) B. Hawkins...she's a fairly unusual character in music. In interviews she's often talked of herself as "pansexual", not prescribing to any particular sexual preference. And a few of her other songs may offend some, with sexual/sensual lyrics with homosexual overtones (See lyrics for tracks 5. Carry Me on Tongues & Tails or 9. Your Tongue Like The Sun In My Mouth on Timbre at http://www.sophiebhawkins.com ). I was unaware that she plays the cello, and more often plays piano on her other CD's..but she's really just plain interesting. And, I'm not sure about lately...but back in the early 90's her stage show was wild and very overtly sexual (back up dancers & such imitating sexual acts with *for lack of a more polite term* "pre-marital aids") The TV folks have deemed it okay to play her new single "Lose Your Way" on "Dawson's Creek". I find her a unique and sort of "feel-good" musician that can get that good-feeling across without being poppy or cheesy (enough food overtones...and enough from me today). Funny this question comes up...in looking for a single of Sophie's back in '94, I "accidentally" introduced myself to both Sarah McLachlan and Liz Phair. (I live in a musically inept town of 382 people)... ~gunshy~ Shelly... "I tried to change the nature, but now I like it 'cuz it's mine..." ~Sophie B. Hawkins ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 08:08:14 -0500 From: "Morrise, Jason" Subject: sophie b. hawkins & britney spears "Michael Worrell" wrote: >Who the hell is Sophie B. Hawkins? > >What's she done, and why should I care? if memory serves me correctly, she had a bit of a hit with 'damn, I wish I was your lover' several years back. maybe around 1992-93? so, did anyone catch the miss teen usa pageant last night? I couldn't bare to watch more than ten minutes of those poor 15-19-year-olds sucking in their guts, but britney spears kept popping up with promotional bits for louisiana. I thought she was from florida and what happened to her southern drawl? hmm, here's some liz content. michael, you have referred to ecp in previous posts, and I gather those are initials for elizabeth phair, but what does the 'c' stand for? jason ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 09:05:28 -0500 From: "Kristin Arnold" Subject: Sophie B. Hawkins I know a bit about Sophie B...her claim to fame (if you can call it that) are two songs, "Damn, I wish I was your lover & As I lay me down" (or something close to that title). She isn't known as a cello player to my knowledge or at least there is not a cello on the songs that made her "famous" so I am not sure about that. I apologize if I am totally wrong, but thought I'd put in my two cents just in case I am the only one that has ever heard of her! *************************************************************** "Everything I wish for I know I could only if everything I could I didn't wish for" ¯ Rusted Root "Magenta Radio" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 99 22:22:53 -0400 From: Meredith Robbins Subject: Re: fuck alan-ass and her groupie-fuck heads Jaime, Steve, I hate to be harsh, but: PUT A FUCKING SOCK IN IT. I don't know how long you've been here, but obviously you must have missed the Alanis Wars of '99 (or was it '98? I don't know, it's all a blur). Either that or you just don't care if you leave a trail of list destruction in your wake, as long as you get to spout your opinion to 900 people. Do you live in some alternate reality where you can't just e-mail each other PRIVATELY? For fuck's sake. And, hey, if you absolutely must post a list, how about heading on over to onelist.com and setting up Alanis-Related Dick-Measuring Contest Digest? Christ. Meredith and don't even *talk* to me about who's the biggest list bitch +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "I guess I'm not really involving my imagination to that of a circumstance or happening--I'm just kind of acknowledging it as an existence." --Keanu Reeves ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:28:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Dave Bodamer Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #249 >Date: Tue, 24 Aug 1999 23:39:02 -0400 >From: "Michael Worrell" >Subject: OT: WTH is Sophie B. Hawkins? > > Having a great deal of faith in the reviewing >capabilities of SSD, let me pose a question that would >be best answered by the august body of experience >represented here... > > Who the hell is Sophie B. Hawkins? She's been around for a while now. Her biggest hit (I think) was called "Damn I wish I was your lover." I don't know much else about her. >What's she done, and why should I care? Some albums. I don't know why you should care. Maybe you'd like them. Maybe you wouldn't. > Reason I ask is that I've seen her latest album in >stores, and I can't figure out how a cello player gets > an explicit content sticker. lyrics perhaps? > NP: Some track on "Josh's Blair Witch Mix" This was a stroke of shear marketing brilliance. Somehow they've managed to release a soundtrack to a movie that had no soundtrack. Is it good? What's on it? >Hey, my roomates and I have been trying to come up >with good ways to finish stories the other day. So far >we've come up with "the end," "ta-da," "stop looking >at me," "shutup, you," and simply running away. >Any other suggestions? You could pop a balloon (assuming you're willing to carry balloons around with you at all times). Or else curl up into a fetal position. >that may not be the case at all now. We'll see...so, >say that mp3s continue to gain popularity and more and >more artists start selling music that way. Would the >whole idea of an album even continue to exist? I believe it would because some artists don't think of music simply in terms of songs. The arrangement of songs on album itself is a statement in some cases. Sgt. Pepper's comes to mind as the prime example of this. I also think both Exile on Main Street and Exile in Guyville should be viewed as a whole as much as they should be viewed song by song. Plus, mp3s will never completely replace other formats. There will always be some sort of album-length format for artists to work with. >There would be no reason for an artist to release an >entire album of mp3s at a time, although TMBG did >just that not all that long ago. But what if listeners >only paid for the songs that they liked? (I was >thinking that I'm not all that interested in buying a >certain compilation CD, but that if I could pay a >proportional amount for just one song by a certain >artist on the CD, I would definitely do it.) So, I >guess another question that comes out of this is >whether or not artists put the same amount of effort >into every song on an album. Are some songs just >"fillers"? If fans only paid for the songs that they >liked, would artists write their music differently in >any way? Hmmm... I think it would differ depending on the artist. If it was a top-40 type, I think they'd spend more time crafting every song and wouldn't worry too much about "fillers" (although I have a hard time believing that any artist would intentionally write a filler. I would think that any song they spent time on would be seen as important to them.) But I think artists will continue to produce traditional albums. As for the consumer's side, it would make sense for a buyer to have the option of purchasing one song or a whole album at a time. It will be interesting to see how this all plays out and whether or not it will even make a difference in the long run. There will always be other formats. Mp3 will never be the only thing available. For one, true audiophiles probably can't bear to listen to Mp3s and there are still a lot of people who don't use the Internet at all. There will always be some sort of album-length format, whether it be vinyl, CDs, DVDs, or something else. NP: Yo La Tengo - I Can Hear The Heart Beating As One z. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:28:34 PDT From: "Mark Schmidt" Subject: Sophie B. Hawkins Sophie B. Hawkins is not a cello player. Well, she may be, but primarily she's a singer and songwriter. She's had a fair amount of commercial success with her two previous albums, "Tongues and Tails" and "Whaler." The first featured the song Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover, and the second produced the adult contemporary radio tracks Right Beside You and As I Lay Me Down. Sophie's style is much more lush and produced than most of the artists discussed on this list, and, in many cases, much more "pop." But lyrically and with respect to attitude, she's much more like Liz than you might think. Her songs are full of sex and sensuality, all mixed up with religion and philosophy too. My dad heard the songs from Whaler on the radio, knew I had the CDs, and asked me if I thought he'd like the albums. I had to tell him that they'd be too racy for him. "Whaler" is less so, but the first album is pretty up front about the sex--in the song I Want You, she moans "I'm about to take it all inside" and "I'm gonna turn you on; I'm gonna make you come." And she isn't shy. She's very open about the fact that she's bisexual, and uninhibited enough to turn her duet with Melissa Etheridge on VH1 into an outright lustfest. Photos of her in the liners of her CD's depict her in various states of undress, looking VERY hot. She's an exhibitionist when it comes to her personal life, too. She had a rather strange upbringing in Greenwich Village, including going off to live with a much older man at a very young age (15 I think?) with her parents' permission. Recently on tour she had along a documentary filmmaker, and discovered coincidentally at that time some repressed memories about sexual abuse in her past. She confronted her parents on camera, and the resulting film (The Cream Will Rise) played some small festivals, mainly within the gay community. You can learn more about her at her official site, www.sophiebhawkins.com (from Sony music), and at thecreamwillrise.com I do not have her new album yet. I was going to order it from CDNow, but they only have the "clean version." I'm not sure what the changes are, but apparently two songs were modifed. My guess is that they just deal with sexuality in a little-too-frank manner, probably using some of the forbidden words. Gee, who else do we know who makes songs like that? - ---Mark http://musicmark.webjump.com _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 07:52:07 PDT From: "Mark Schmidt" Subject: more Sophie B. Hawkins Okay, I found the lyrics on the official web site, and I'm pretty sure that explicit lyrics sticker is for these lines: You're the one who raped your superintendent On the rooftop tied his hands and feet to the fence You sucked his cock and fucked the man immobile You paid your daddy's rent - --- How long can this world keep fucking itself up the ass - --- She has given and forgiven for to give her Kunt forgave her To the longing for a loving hand Or fist or cock or spike - ---- The first two are from "Darkest Childe," and the third from "Help Me Breathe." - ---Mark _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:17:53 -0500 From: Kelly Warner Subject: RE: support-system-digest V2 #249 Hello list, and goodbye. I've haven't read so much inane drivel since junior high note-passing days. I'm sure most of the people on this list are relatively mature, intelligent people, but some people who continually post with hate-filled rancor really ruin things. The movie spoiler thing was ridiculous. I was just glad that I saw Blair Bitch on opening night so no one could give away the ending. And although I am not an Alanis fan, I do not enjoy nonstop Alanis-bashing, and I especially abhor Alanis-fan-bashing. Steve, hang in there. You have every right to like and defend Alanis. And Jaime, yes, do everyone a favor, carry out your 'threat' & just go away. I'm sure everyone will be horribly broken up about your absence. I won't continue with that thought, because I don't want to bash you publicly. And lastly, for the people who post every other word as 'fuck...' sure, fuck's a great word, but any word gets tiresome when you use it too much. There are thousands of ways to express yourself without necessarily using the word fuck. Try a little creativity & imagination. That's it. Any flames can be addressed to kwarner@trendmasters.com. Signing off, Kelly (Please take me off of the list. I don't know if I'm doing this the right way, but this is only way I know how...sorry). > > > ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:07:06 EDT From: MLevine171@aol.com Subject: Sophie B. Hawkins As I'm reading this Sophie thread, I dont know if anyone posted this, but Sophie tried to release the new album, and her record company wouldn't let her, because there was a mandolin in the hit single. Isn't that ridiculous? Anyway..fans had a whole petition and stuff set up, which got the album put out. Very nice when fans work together and aren't assholes.. :) Well.. so far I heard parts of the album. I never got into her, maybe I'll go give it a full listen. steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:10:53 EDT From: MLevine171@aol.com Subject: Re: Sophie B. Hawkins In a message dated 08/25/1999 8:30:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, danmac@MNSi.net writes: > It's a great tune though...that's about the only Sophie B. song I know > though. I always get her confused with that Donna Lewis chick though. Don't > know why. Me too! I think it's because they had 2 singles out at the same time, and sound similar. She had out "As I lay me down" and Donna Lewis had out something else. They also both have blond hair. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 11:21:28 -0500 From: "Allison" Subject: Request, how I first heard of Liz Someone asked recently how we all got interested in Liz in the first place. Perhaps we could all answer that question instead of ever mentioning again that other singer whose initials are A.M. Please please stop talking about her. I don't like her or dislike her, I just don't want to hear about her on this list anymore! Please. So, I first heard Liz as I was slumped down in the passenger seat going somewhere I did not want to go. Stratford On Guy came on the radio and my head literally snapped up. Her voice was so different, slightly out of tune, deep, and the whole song seemed to be sung in a minor key. (Forgive me if that is incorrect, I have never studied music, just musicians). I listened to the DJ on WXRT, who then told me that she was a home-town girl. I bought the album the next day and became immediately obsessed. Shortly after that I saw her at the Park West where she opened for a fashion show and had terrible stage fright, but I already told that story on this list. I know I will get slammed for this, but I have never felt the same way about any of Liz's later material. (Except possibly the song Nashville). I just did not care for WCSE. Yes, Johnny Feelgood kind of rocks, and Uncle Alvarez is a pretty song, but I miss the plaintiveness of her earlier work, the honesty and passion that she exhibited on EIG. The musical brilliance of a song like Shatter, or the yearning that is evident in Mesmerizing is just absent from WCSE. Yes, I know she has to sell records, and I know she is nowhere near as unhappy as she was when she recorded EIG, but I miss the raw quality that she had. Her newer work seems sanitized, despite the occasional swear word or lament on the state of her marriage. Her record company has alot to do with this, requesting that she write a hit song. It makes me cringe when I think of them tampering with her material, forcing her to conform to their standards. It all comes down to the money I guess. Do any of you feel this way too? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:27:10 EDT From: AMCFLND1@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #249 In a message dated 8/25/99 1:50:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org writes: << Who the hell is Sophie B. Hawkins? What's she done, and why should I care? Reason I ask is that I've seen her latest album in stores, and I can't figure out how a cello player gets an explicit content sticker. >> She had a hit in '92 called Damn I Wish I Was Your Lover and another in '95 with As I Lay Me Down. As for the explicit sticker, I have no idea. I have the cd and really can't figure out why it's there. Sara ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 12:46:07 -0400 (EDT) From: Dennis Junkoo Kim Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #248 > >From: "Jaime" > Subject: COPYRIGHT LAWS-- not as boring as youd think! > > Even though I'm not posting... this is actually relevant--- RELEVANT ??? > Yes, and very much so... > If you can easily follow along... > > READ ON: > - --- > Yes, absolutely it's illegal. It's a violation of the copyright law. But it > is just as illegal to be copying them even if you are not selling them. > That's a common misconception. So, technically what you guys are doing > violates the copyright law, but if Liz doesn't mind, then she won't sue > you. ;) (one hopes). > There are many common misconceptions. I think of copyright law this way: as long as you don't get caught, you won't be prosecuted, and even if you do get caught, you may not be prosecuted. I think this philosophy is quite evident on this list and on the Belly/Tanya Donelly list and probably many other music lists that trade music among its members. The copyright law is purposefully vague. This is its strongest and its weakest point. It allows for review and critique of copyrighted material relatively free of fear of prosecution, but it also allows for entities like the RIAA to pursue an agenda of greed at the expense of our media freedom. For those of you who never go to the library anymore (you should): http://lcweb.loc.gov/copyright/ > I represent a lot of musicians, so I'm very sensitive to these issues. But > if you think about it, even if you aren't selling tapes, you are > potentially depriving artists of revenue, because people might get a tape > for free instead of buying the music commercially. A lot of artists, > however, don't mind, and, in fact, even encourage trading of boots, etc. > because it fosters enthusiasm for the music, etc..... The sentiment that one is "potentially depriving artists of revenue" has been debated quite a bit on this list. That is a vague statement characteristic of copyright wording. In the same vein, one is potentially increasing the revenue of the artist by expanding his listener base. Why do you make tapes for others? To expose them to the artist. It's free advertising. The one who received the tape will either buy the artist's products or not buy them. If he doesn't buy them, he probably won't listen to the tape. If he does not listen to that tape, the copyright violation ceases to be relevant. When was the last time you saw a commercial for a band that didn't have clips of any of that band's music? What about singles and heavy rotation on MTV and your lowest common denominator corporate radio station? The demographic for these two institutions are the demographic that are highly likely to violate copyright law. They like the single. Instead of buying the album, they steal the single, off the airwaves or from a friend's album. Maybe they buy the album, soon lose interest, then sell it to a used record shop. All this deprives the artist of income. The argument that used record sales deprive an artist of income is preposterous. The record was once new, and the artist received royalties for that sale (regardless of whether it was stolen or not, but that's a different story). If the buyer decides that he doesn't like the record and sells it back to the store, the artist is not forced to return the royalty he received for that sale. One may even say that the artist is ahead by one, that he received royalties even though his album was crap. If someone buys that used album later on, the artist is back to being even. 1 fan = 1 royalty payment. These artists that don't mind that their listeners trade boots and tapes are the artists that are bright enough to realize that their music is capable of standing on its own and does not require a small army of greedy zealots to force consumers into buying. It all boils down to this: if it's good (everyone has their own personal definition of good) then you'll listen to it. if it sucks, why pay for it if you're not going to listen to it? > Okay--- the email thingie is over... Whatcha'll think of that??? > It's good to see that some people care about these things. > Thought maybe some SSD members might enjoy it, or maybe cringe at it... > > either way-- my work is done... > > ~jaime* d. www4.ncsu.edu/~djkim2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 13:10:00 -0400 (EDT) From: Dennis Junkoo Kim Subject: Oops. I just noticed that i mentioned copyright law being vague. I should be more specific. It's the fair use stuff in copyright law that is vague. The actual text of the law is really specific in that legalese way that includes just about everything possible. You know, like those indemnity clauses and disclaimers that basically say "we are not responsible for anything bad that could possibly happen to you so don't try to sue us even if it's our fault. we told you so." - --- "Your manuscript is both good and original, but the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good." -Samuel Johnson "A'nta baka?" -Asuka d. www4.ncsu.edu/~djkim2 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 10:17:12 -0700 From: "dana polachowski" Subject: sophie b. > > Who the hell is Sophie B. Hawkins? > she a real interesting musician.... she had a big (groovy) radio hit in, god, 1992ish, i think, called "damn, wish i was you lover" and it was sort of embedded in the song that she was talking to a woman . i say "embedded" because, since it *was* a genuine radio hit (and really made you wanna shake your arse), you could easily blow off listening to the verses and just content yourself with screaming the choruses... so, yeah, here's everyone singin' this song about lesbian love.... i thought that was great. oh, yeah, and then there was another song on the radio called "when i lay me down"; it was kind of lullabyish. anyway, i guess she played drums in brian ferry's band for awhile. she plays a lot of different instruments, cello and drums among them. so i wonder what she's moved on to lyrically to warrant a sticker... dp ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:23:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nicole W." Subject: it's like this and like that and like this and uh... I wish I had a pencil thin moustache... the boston blackie kind... (no, actually I don't.) ANYWAY... Yo... just cuz Liz likes somebody doesnt' mean they're good. I respect Liz Phair for her own music, not for who she listens to. I don't give a fuck what she listens to, as long as she continues to make her brilliant and wonderful music. And yes, I can respect Liz without respecting what she listens to. I think I just repeated myself. Anyway, this is just to disagree with what (ahem) someone said about like, "how can you respect Liz if she listens to Androgynous Naked Video chick?" It ain't hard. Hell, if people just wrote music that sounded like what they listened to, there wouldn't be a whole fucking lot of variety. It's about creativity... Liz is unique and creative, and she doesn't aspire to sound like anyone else. Hence I like her, and she's one of only two female artists I listen to. Everyone has some quirk in their musical tastes. If somebody has something else to offer (and many people, names excluded, don't) then I have no problem overlooking the... fault. Hell, while I do claim to be an expert on judging certain types of music as bad, I do know that there are some kinds I can't touch, like punk. I'm not a big punk fan, but I respect it. My favorite band of all time is Pearl Jam, and one of Ed Vedder's favorite bands is Fugazi. I went to a Fugazi show once, hoping to be blown away like Eddie, but I didn't like it at all. HOwever, I chalk that one up to my own tastes, and not general failure on the part of Fugazi to be talented. Again, I'm going to abstain from naming names, but there are certain people who are just BAD adn it's not a matter of taste that I don't like them. Fortunately, back on the subject of punk, Eddie doesn't try to be Ian from Fugazi. He's Eddie, as Liz is Liz. Of course, artists ARE influenced by some of what they listen to, but luckily I haven't heard any alan-ass influence in Liz's music. Maybe she'll spare me. Mmm k... and yo... umm... to a certain nameless alan-ass promoter: get the chip off your shoulder, cuz it's like.. all moldy and stuff. And to Meredith: don't patronize me! I know what I'm doing (and it has nothin to do with you) And to everyone: remember that chck with the long dread locks and spiky hair on top who had the chain from her ear to her nose? she sang that "don't wanna fall in love... nono... love cuts just like a knife...ooohooh..." song? What happend to her? What happens to one-hit wonders like that? Esp. ones that you can't see out in the "normal" world? What kind of place hires one-hit wonders with crazy hairdon'ts and funny facial jewelry? Hmm. Later, Nicole * * * * * * * * * * * * "Perfect is a fault, and fault lines change." -R.E.M. "Push me and I will resist/ This behavior's not unique" -Pearl Jam ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:28:00 EDT From: "Morgan Hartsell" Subject: Why Liz? Nfa2atiOn@aol.com wrote: >how is it >that the people on the list were introduced to liz while the rest of >the >world remained semi-oblivious? what posessed you guys to buy your >first >liz >phair cd? Yay!!!!!! Finally a non-alanis thread-ling!!! I often wonder myself how it is that a lot of us are exposed to Liz and her music, while the rest of the world doesn't seem to acknowledge her for whatever reason. Personally, my how-I-got-into-Liz's-music story is pretty short. Circa Fall '94, when I was 12, MTV actually PLAYED the video for Supernova (from what I hear), but I never actually saw the video,and I haven't to this day. But I DID see about 3 or 4 seconds of it on the MTV "Buzz Clip" commercial they were airing, and that was all I needed. S'funny. And that was my ONLY exposure to Liz until I finally bought Whip-Smart. Taa-Daa!!!! I think that Supernova was an excellent choice for a first single, because everyone I know who enjoys Liz first came to know her as a result of that song. In fact, I bet a large percentage of you guys on the list came to know her because of that single!!! And I know more than one person who LOVES Supernova, and bought Whip-Smart because of it, but thinks every other Liz song is crap. The first single is always important. I don't think Polyester Bride was a very good choice for the first single/only video off of WCSE. I know that Capitol most likely wanted someting VH1-friendly, but I think we're all pretty much in agreement that What Makes You Happy would've been a better choice for a single and still have been suitable for folks who prefer Vh1-type stuff. I also think Johnny Feelgood would've been a good choice, but I can't imagine her being asked to perform it on The Rosie O'Donell Show. And I doubt Liz-virgins would "get" Big Tall Man. Ya know what I mean? They'd just think she was crazy. Anywho. Now that Liz's Lilith Fair obligation is over, ya think we'll start hearing more about the new album? I hope so. I'm anxious to see what kind treatment she'll get from Capitol. And I vote this album be self-titled. Maybe as sort-of her introduction to the world at large, intentionally. With songs like Don't Apologize and Love/Hate Transmision, it could be her most mainstream-sounding work yet. I dunno. Good thing or bad thing? That be all for now. Morgan _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 25 Aug 1999 14:48:14 EDT From: MLevine171@aol.com Subject: Re: it's like this and like that and like this and uh... ok...even I ended this thing, and you said that the other one was your last post, BUT you post your whole life story once AGAIN. All I said is it's low to bash others for what they like, and to bash artists, because even if you don't like them, it doesn't mean they're bad. Who fucking died and made you "Queen of judging art" Oh well! You don't like her! I could care less, just don't push your hatred on me, just because you are depressed and wanna go poke people around! Shut up! You said your allowed to say what you want? Well now I'm going to say what I want. Shut the fuck up, because we could care less about your stupid little depressed bashing about what you hate. Well I know I hate it, I'm sick and tired of it, and I'm saying what's on my mind now, because you made me angry! Some other people don't wanna hear it either, I don't know how you have come to be so respected on this list..Maybe because you've been on awhile, but you definitely do not deserve respect..and as alanis would say "and I love you still.." and get a life instead of bashing other people's lives. THE END..all other mail from u will just be deleted steve ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #250 ************************************