From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #240 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, August 18 1999 Volume 02 : Number 240 Today's Subjects: ----------------- A Festive Ammount of the Word Fuck ["M.L. Magdalene" ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Formula/Auctions [moe@lac2.gulliver.fr] rant or editorial? u decide ["DarkSide oftheMoon" ] re: second-hand CDs [Catherine Lewis ] Re: Bounced message [tommyk7@excite.com] Sleater Kinney Shows ["Kristin Arnold" ] Re: rant or editorial? u decide [MLevine171@aol.com] breasts, tapes, eBay, and one good idea! ["Persy Grrrl" ] Re: support-system-digest V2 #239 [Pony374269@aol.com] Kurt/Nirvana [Jason Long ] this post is good, but it's really long. ["Nicole W." ] ebay and jason's reply! ["Jaime" ] third time's a... ["Nicole W." ] Some replies [Jason Long ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:14:40 PDT From: "M.L. Magdalene" Subject: A Festive Ammount of the Word Fuck >From: Nach1120@aol.com >Are there any other artists out there you can think of, you really >don't >like, but have to give credit to because they are really >famous? I don't give anyone credit just cause they are famous...I mean..i don't give like HITLER credit..and he's pretty damn famous.... Okay this is where i start ranting and raving....i apologize in advance...fellow list members... >From: Pony374269@aol.com >why do people STILL CARE about kurt cobain. he wasn't a very good >musician...it's a well known fact, and he fooled with drugs too much. >why >is that so impressive. Fuck you and your twisted ways. Why do people still care about Jim Morrison? Or Janis Joplin? Or Jimi Hendrix?! Because they all contributed something to music. Who gives a fuck if he fucked around with drugs((and i won't even touch the "not a very good musician part"cause i don't have the time!)). Most musicians do! Fuck if it's a well known fact. I mean sure perhaps we can exclude Hanson from this but most muscians are getting COKE and SPEED and HEROIN and what-ever else put in front of them on a regular basis and you think they pass it up every fucking time?! Kurts addiction had nothing to do with his quality of music..and i don't think you have ANY fucking right what-so-ever to act like those of us who still care about Kurt are fucking brain dead! >just because he made it into the mainstream doesn't mean >he is a god. No..no..that's not what makes him a god at all..... >he is sooooo dead and i think the point is that we need to MOVE on >to the music that has been developing presently. Right..right..and go on now...Jamie...get rid of all that John Lennon you listen to((cause he's dead so he MUST suck!)) and the rest of you to! Burn your fucking Janis and Jimi and Morrison and GOD DAMMIT burn your fucking NIRVANA albums because if they are dead THEY ARE WORTHLESS....fuck that.... >but everyone knows she doesn't like to dwell on her cobain >years.....why >do ALL OF YOU? Did it ever fall into your feeble fucking self absorbed mind that Courtney simpley doesn't dwell on her the time she spent with Kurt publicly? I mean..if your fucking husband shot himself in the fucking head cause the life he was living was so fucking sad that doing something like that seemed so much better then LIVING that you would sit around and talk to it to a media-hungry nation?! >think intelligentlly! Why don't you? And then continue to live in your fucking box. If LIZ died tomorrow would that make her music any less worthy? I apologize once again to the fellow list members that may have been offended by the obscene ammount of swear words..so next time i'll try to refrain...but this time..i'm tired of the bullshit! M "I found it hard It's hard to find Oh well whatever nevermind" - -Kurt Cobain- _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:28:14 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: Valerie Barry Subject: giveaways, postcards and new internet service all you people with "giveaways"...when you give them to the first people who email you, then those of us who subscribe to the digest can't respond in time. there's also the time zone thing...how about trivia questions, or other more creative methods so those of us who read the digest while settling into work between 8:30-10:00 EST can have a fighting chance? still looking for free liz CK postcards... this may be inappropriate for the list, but if anyone needs to sign up for internet or web hosting service and signs up with mindspring, with me, valerieb@mindspring.com, as your referral, we both get a $60 credit. email me directly or go here http://www.mindspring.net/community/members/referral/ if you're interested! valerie *********************************************************** "...well look at me i'm frightening my friends..." - -Liz Phair ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:28:57 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "Mike Glenn" Subject: Re: Hole......... I just wanted to say 'hey' to everyone on the list. It feels good to be able to reach a group of people who don't have their heads in the wrong place about music (i.e., Korn...=]) Anyhoo, yeah, Melissa Auf Der Maur's voice is, in my opinion, LOADS better than Courtney Love's.....they can kinda play their instruments, but still I think it's fair to say that the reason Hole's so big is porely from Love's marriage to Kurt Cobain....otherwise, Sixteen Deluxe, Starfish, and half a million other underground bands would be gracing the screens of Mindless....er- Music Television as easily as Hole does. Peace, Mike ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 04:39:50 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "Ginz" Subject: Jane Magazine Nicole wrote: >Well I was reading my Jane magazine from August, and it mentioned a cd called, like, Jane Ultimate Summer CD, which contains, among other things, Liz Phair, >Luscious Jackson, Cibo Matto, uhh ouch my brain hurts from trying to remember the rest. Ah, yes. Those who were at Liz's NYC Benefit show got a bag full of favors. Included was a copy of Jane Magazine (Sizzling Double Summer Issue) and a copy of the 'Ultimate Summer CD' The first track is 'Perfect World', and includes Luscious Jackson, Cibo Matto...... a rare Liz item, for sure. Ken, want to add that to your discography? Ginz ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:37:59 +0200 From: moe@lac2.gulliver.fr Subject: Formula/Auctions Mike Marlatt: >Why didn't Capitol copy a >successful formula like 95% of every other successful music act. Probably because in music like in every other domain of show-business (movies, tv shows, etc...) there is *no* successful formula. Come on, if there was a formula, knowing the greed of the major labels, they would only sign bands that are guaranteed (according to *the* formula) to go platinum. Jaime: >LIZ IS BEING RAPED BY THESE AUCTIONS! I don't see how she is. Sure, she is making zero dollars on these auctions but when these tapes are freely distributed like on this list, how much money does she make? The same: zero dollars. So I don't see what the difference is for her. Now when you say it's an outrage to see fans getting ripped off, then I agree. Oh and btw if we are such caring fans, why don't we send her a little amount of money when we share tapes? You know, royalties. That would be nice. Just an idea. :) Can anyone send me the URL for that Steve Albini article? I never received the digest in which it was mentioned. Thanks. Moe ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 05:48:14 PDT From: "DarkSide oftheMoon" Subject: rant or editorial? u decide Michael Carapella asked: >Where do you stand on purchasing second-hand CDs? >The artist doesn't see any cash for that, right? I am completely for supporting your local-indie-record store. I must admit however, that my local-indie record store also sells more used copies of cds, tapes, and records than new. I never really thought of it as cheating an artist out of their due because 9 times out of 10, someone in fact had to buy the cd new for me to buy it used... right? So they at least got that much. Besides, I have spent a fair amount on artists that I have heard relatively little of just because I could buy it used and save a few bucks. That usually leads me to buying more of their stuff and so on, sometimes new, sometimes used. Most of the mainstream stores don't carry the wide range of music that I, and I believe, most of the list listens to. I hate when your local say, WalMart refuses to carry an artist because of their puritanical beliefs. When I bought my copy of WCSE, I did buy it new. But I also bought it at the aforementioned indie store. So I don't have a problem buying used. Pony374269@aol.com wrote: >why do people STILL CARE about kurt cobain. he wasn't a very good >musician...it's a well known fact, and he fooled with drugs too much. Well Jase pretty much summed up what I was going to say but I'm gonna say it anyway. (Sigh) Where the fuque do you come up with this? Are you a musician? Why do people care? Why do people care about Beethoven? Hendrix? Lennon? Lenin? (whoops), DaVinci? Christ? Because they had a major influence on people's lives both at the time that they lived and probably more so AFTER they died. Wasn't a good musician? (Sigh) Tell that to Rolling Stone or any of the dozens of bands he influenced or musician he played with. He set the collective music scene on its ear with his style and angst. I was watching a taped MTV concert last weekend of Nirvana with a friend & fellow guitarist. We both sat there mesmerized by Kurt & co. "Where does he come up with this shit?" we both said at almost the same time. He was not the best technically but he had IT. What's IT? Hard to define IT. Nirvana's music is hauntingly eerie due to the emotion/pain/agony that Kurt screamed through his song writing and the microphone. It's also rhythmically an assault due to Dave Grohl's maniacal, piledriver drumming (if Keith Moon had a son, it would have been Dave - very similar 'attacki-ness'.) And it is disturbing, not NIN disturbing, but watching him slowly dissolve/implode before our eyes was like watching a disaster...you don't want to look, but at the same time you can't turn away. Fooled with drugs too much....hmmmm do you mean he did too many or did the wrong kind or both? I am sure that quite a number of us fool or have fooled with drugs too much. Any time you start dealing with heroin, you're going to lose. Once again it was fuel to his fire that blossomed forth his genius and eventually killed him. But on the other hand, would Jimi have written "3rd Stone from the Sun", the Beatles "I am the Walrus", the Doors "The End" without the assistance of chemicals? Methinksnot...A good topic for debate.... Jaime (with eyes closed and fists clenched) screamed: LIZ IS BEING RAPED BY THESE AUCTIONS! ANYONE FED UP BY THIS EBAY THING ?? Speaking of drugs...JAIME.... SMOKE A JOINT AND MELLOW OUT! Yes I hate them too, but damn dude(ette), lets see you attack the problem of legalized marijuana (a topic close to your heart), starving children or defective condoms with such vigor and voracity! Sheesh! You go girl! farstrider@earthlink.net painstakenly typed: >***A big article... Thanks for that article. One of the best I've read in a while about Liz. New album next year...whooo-hooo! >The song has a strong mid-60's British rock influence, Hmmm....Could this mean a possible collaboration with.....gasp....Madonna? "If I'm smart then I'll run away, but I liked it, I really really really liked it. I looked into your eyes, your lips a perfect suck me size. You're the devil in disguise, I fell in love with Johnny Sunshine." setting your teeth on edge, DarkSide oftheMoon _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 09:51:05 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Lewis Subject: re: second-hand CDs Michael Carapella wrote: > Finally, a question. Where do you stand on purchasing second-hand CDs? > The artist doesn't see any cash for that, right? Should people simple > discard CDs they no longer listen to so that everyone has to purchase new > to support the artist? Here's my opinion: even though the _artist_ doesn't see any $$ for the sale of a used CD, the store where you buy it will. In the old days, it was the indie stores alone who would sell used CDs, and so buying a used CD from the store was a good thing (more $ for the store meant that the store could take more risks in terms of its new purchases and stock) -- and it would also attract more customers, because people who had a CD to get rid of would go to the indie store and shop there, instead of going to a big chain store. Unfortunately, however, the times they are a-changin', because now it's not just the "indie" stores that sell used CDs. Wherehouse Music and Sam Goody (among other big chains) are selling used CDs, often at prices lower than indie-stores can sell them (they make up for it, however, by raping the customer and charging $18 for a new CD, where an indie store would charge $12 or $13). So now, I don't really know what to think about the used CD market. I think it's a good thing for indie stores but that the big chains are using it to make even more money than they already do.... and therefore put the small indie stores out of business. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.... Catherine - -- "I could be condemned to hell for every sin but littering." - Soul Coughing, "The Idiot Kings" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 07:00:46 PDT From: tommyk7@excite.com Subject: Re: Bounced message Judging from your post, "Mickey," you do not seem like an elder reader of Support-System... From: "Mike Glenn" >I just wanted to say 'hey' to everyone on the list. It feels >good to be able to reach a group of people who don't have their >heads in the wrong place about music (i.e., Korn...=]) Sorry you don't like Korn, Mickey. I bought their first album way back in 1995 and was lucky enough to see them live at a small venue the next year. Unfortunately, Korn's commercial success has catapulted them into the realm of stadium sell-outs. I don't envision myself seeing them again, but I still like them and buy their albums. >Anyhoo, yeah, Melissa Auf Der Maur's voice is, in my opinion, >LOADS better than Courtney Love's.....they can kinda play their >instruments, but still I think it's fair to say that the reason >Hole's so big is porely from Love's marriage to Kurt >Cobain....otherwise, Sixteen Deluxe, Starfish, and half a > million other underground bands would be gracing the screens >of Mindless....er- Music Television as easily as Hole does. No, it's not fair to say that. If you had been lurking a few weeks ago, you would have read Jase ripping that theory to tiny shreds. Please think of something worthwile to say, Mickey - I hate to denigrate Support-System posts "porley" on the basis of utter ignorance. TMK NP: Robert Pollard, _Not In My Airforce_ Peut-être à la fin du siècle vous m'aimerez ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 10:25:34 -0500 From: "Kristin Arnold" Subject: Sleater Kinney Shows I have a friend with some SK CD-Rs that he is trying to get off his hands and I know there are some Sleater Kinney fans on this list so I wanted to pass the info along. Please do not email me about this, instead direct your emails to: darrowb@att.com Here is the info: Two Slater Kinney CD-R shows (no cover art or anything) they are both audience recordings but the sound quality is good for a SK show. Here are the specs. (1) Tramps, New York, NY - 5/17/97 - Sound quality 'A' on CD. 45 or so Minutes. Turn it On/Dig Me Out/I Wanna Be Your Joey Ramone/One More Hour/The Drama You've Been Craving/Call the Doctor/Jenny (AWESOME!!!)/Love Your Mama/New Song/Heart Factory/Little Babies/Good Things/Little Mouth/Words and Guitar (2) Capital Theatre, Olympia, WA - 12/31/97 - Sound quality 'A-' on CD. 60 or so Minutes. I Wanna Be Your Joey Ramone/Dig Me Out/One Song for You/One More Hour/By the Time You're 25/Turn it On/Tapping/Little Babies/Start Together/Heart Factory/It's Enough/The End of the World/Words and Guitar/Good Things/Rock Lobster with Calvin Johnson. Cost of one show: $8.50 (includes shipping) Cost of both shows: $15.00 (includes shipping) What a deal - hope someone out there is interested! PS - I live in Chicago and saw Liz's CK ad on the side of the bus - I was quite thrilled! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:00:49 EDT From: MLevine171@aol.com Subject: Re: rant or editorial? u decide In a message dated 08/18/1999 9:53:20 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hilofer@hotmail.com writes: > I hate > when your local say, WalMart refuses to carry an artist because of their > puritanical beliefs. me too..that pisses me off so much...it's like I know it's their store and they have the right to sell what they want..but come on..it's ridiculous..it's irrelevant..if they're going to do that i dont think they should sell ANY cds than..they should either carry all the cds they can, or NO cds, BUT not exclude cds because of their beliefs..they hAVE NO cds there anyway..they never carry a lot, because they dont believe in like most singer's lyrics..they're really disrespectful to artists.. steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 12:14:18 EDT From: "Persy Grrrl" Subject: breasts, tapes, eBay, and one good idea! Wow do we have a lot of things going on right now on the list, from breasts to tapes to eBay. Personally, I don't have anything against taping whole albums. A friend and I do tape trades like that all the time, but then again, he's in high school and I just graduated, so there's also a money factor. But if it's a rare, out-of-print, hard to find, or bootleg CD, it should be alright. Most people (myself excluded, since that's the media I have in my truck - my home away from home) don't like tapes as much as CD's anyway, so most likely if they like the tape, they'll but the CD. I've just noticed that over time. As for eBay, if someone's gonna pay that much for what are probably inferior copies of stuff, maybe they deserve it. And there goes my money making idea of hawking copies of GirlySounds to pay for my truck insuranse (hey, i work p/t for min wage, i thought it sounded like a good idea!). Maybe we could do it as a list - with profit sharing or something.(hope you detect sarcasm here, or I'm in big trouble!) Enough of that - PersyGrrrl http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/7234 Persygrrrl's Women in Musica! np: Braxton Hicks - Where The Sky Meets The Ground The second best album I heard all last-year. I'd make you a tape, but... _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:23:09 EDT From: MLevine171@aol.com Subject: tape trading right now I'm making a copy of an album for my friend..she's never heard the singer..and I bet she'd like her.. personally I think that for example, I dont think she'd ever get the album, cause of lack of money, and when she gets her paychecks, she usually doesn't have enough to think about buying cds..although she's a huge music fan..so I figure if I make a copy, and she likes her, at least in general the singer has a fan, and who knows? maybe my friend will become a huge fan, and when she gets paid more she'll buy tons of stuff. Most of these artists do it to express themselves..so I don't think they care if they sell 1 album or 28 million albums..true..they need the money to make the albums, but this one pretty much has her feet set on the ground right now..so I wouldn't worry..she has her own label.. NP: Emm gryner: Science Fair (this is the album I'm talking about-above) its great! she rox! Go get her album called "Public" or go to www.bigfoot.com/~deaddaisy and go listen to some sound clips! she's a great singer..she's on lilith..some of u might have heard her.. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 13:43:27 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nicole W." Subject: make it stop! / "Alison" I'm sorry, my brother, in the next room over, is listening to some crappy r&b music. Crimson and Clover (sorry... it rhymed). Basically I'm the on ly one in this house who listens to decent music, and that's not a biased opinion. If you want me to liste what my bro and sis listen to, as well as my parents, I will. (If you want me to, I will... I WIILLL!) Okay I have to go, so I don't have time to repply to this "Nirvana and Kurt Cobain mean nothing" post, but I do have a reaction, and if I can post later, I will be doing it, so look out. My big news is that I discovered an email (two actually) today from the long lost guy I stood next to at t the November 30th show Liz played in boston. You know, the one where she played "Alison"? Well he taped it, if I recall correctly, and I wrote him back enquireing about the tape, so I may have located a copy, albeit a crappy one, of this song. I'm awaiting his reply, however. Gotta go. Later, Nicole "Perfect is a fault, and fault lines change." -R.E.M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 16:47:25 EDT From: Pony374269@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #239 this is to JASE oh, i wasn't too young to see the impact of cobain. i had plenty of albums and posters and yadda yadda yadda. we all considered ourselves part of the grunge movement, but i mean, COME ON. it just HURTS ME to look at kids today wearing really beat up cords and long stringy green hair with a kurt cobain shirt while still trying to keep his music alive. i don't really live the band CIV too much, but they have this secret acoustic track where they sarcastically whine, "what happened to seattle? what happened to the grunge?" and moan and make fun of those dumb ass kids. there was a point back in '94 but that was 6 years ago. by the way, you're whole point about janis and jimi was somewhat pointless to me because i personally think they are sorry idiots. i party enough to make it count....but i don't dabble in hard drugs and i will NEVER EVER respect anyone who does. i wish everyone thought like that and maybe not so many 13 year olds with low self esteem wouldn't follow that path. it's time to grow OUT of this goddamn "KURT FOREVER" phase. by the way, where do you live? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:50:36 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Kurt/Nirvana Pony374269@aol.com wrote: >oh, i wasn't too young to see the impact of cobain. i had plenty of albums >and posters and yadda yadda yadda. we all considered ourselves part of the >grunge movement, but i mean, COME ON. I never really considered myself a part of the "grunge movement." Apart from Nirvana, Mudhoney, and maybe a couple of other bands, I wasn't into it nearly as much as everyone else I knew at the time. I was a fan of a lot of "alternative" music, but not a lot of it could really be called grunge. Nirvana just happened to be one of the few bands that really transcended that label for me, and had wider appeal. >it just HURTS ME to look at kids today >wearing really beat up cords and long stringy green hair with a kurt cobain >shirt while still trying to keep his music alive. Well, I haven't really come across any kids like that myself, but then again, I don't really know that many kids. My friends and I are all in our twenties now and we've moved on. If I talk about Kurt now, I'm not really doing it in some attempt to keep his music or his memory alive, but just because I still feel that he did something special and that his music has held up really well. Although most of the grunge bands' output may not stand the test of time, I think Nirvana's will. Good songs are timeless. >there was a point back in '94 but that was 6 years ago. Five years technically, and really, if people still like that music, I don't see anything wrong with it. Let them enjoy what they enjoy; being critical of another person's taste never really does any good. Besides, Nirvana opened the door for not just grunge bands to succeed, but a lot of other alternative acts as well. For all we know, people like Liz or Sleater-Kinney may not have had the same chance of success without him. At the very least, Kurt helped to provide more of a forum. Much of the mainstream media (print publications, radio and TV) started taking "alternative" more seriously because of him. I don't think helping to keep those doors open is pointless. >by the way, you're whole point about janis and jimi >was somewhat pointless to me because i personally think they are sorry >idiots. That's fine for you to feel that way, but there are a great deal of music listeners and historians who feel that their contributions to rock music were invaluable. Besides, it doesn't necessarily have to be about those two specific musicians; there are many others I could have named to prove the same point. Also, you'd do well to keep your judgments of an artist and their art separate. It really seems like one is clouding the other, which really isn't fair. Just because someone is a "bad person" doesn't mean they can't create good art. >i party enough to make it count....but i don't dabble in hard drugs >and i will NEVER EVER respect anyone who does. i wish everyone thought like >that and maybe not so many 13 year olds with low self esteem wouldn't follow >that path. It's unfortunate, but I've encountered or known quite a few people who do drugs or have done them in the past, and it's not always necessarily because they have self-esteem problems. For some people, it's a mean of escape because it hurts them too much to *feel* all the time. They need something to numb themselves, or else all they ever feel is pain. I'm not saying it's right, but for a lot of people suffering from serious forms of depression, sometimes they think it's the only answer. Sure, they may be slowly killing themselves, but I'd rather that than have someone put a gun to their head, like Kurt, ending it forever in an instant. That said, I do agree that hard drugs are incredibly stupid and I really wish that people wouldn't use them, but face it, this isn't a perfect world. >it's time to grow OUT of this goddamn "KURT FOREVER" phase. Well, I'm not going around shouting "Kurt Forever" by any means, but I do feel he deserves recognition for the music he made, and if someone tries to write off his work as meaningless or pointless, you can bet I'm going to speak up and say otherwise. >by the way, where do you live? Well, I don't really see how this is related, but right now I'm living northwest of Toronto, Ontario. Jase NP: Michael Penn, _Resigned_ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 19:35:02 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nicole W." Subject: this post is good, but it's really long. Read this, esp. Lindsay. I mean, I can't force you, but you should. Cuz it tooke me alot of brain cells and time to write. First of all, that guy didn't actually tape the show: I must have been thinking of someone else. So no "Alison." Sorry if I got anyone's hopes up. I got my own hopes up too, so we all lose. Okay, now it's time to give my shpiel about the Kurt Cobain thing. >why do people STILL CARE about kurt cobain. he wasn't a very good >musician...it's a well known fact, and he fooled with drugs too much I agree with Jase about this: many many MANY musicians fooled/fool with drugs, and it doesn't hinder their ability to write music or be a musician. It might fuck up a couple of performances, but usually if someone is dependent on drugs, they adapt to life on drugs, and can "function" while under the influence. If anything, drugs can bring a bit of creativity to an otherwise narrow mind. I'm not condoning drug use, but this is my opinion. Yes, drugs can be enlightening, but beware of the side effects they may have on your body and your mind later. >just because he made it into the mainstream doesn't mean >he is a god. No kidding. But a) he's not a god, and b) that's not the issue. I don't recall anyone calling him a god, just a talented musician. And it's true, you aren't necessarily a good musician if you make it into the mainstream, and likewise you're not always a bad musician if you don't (think Liz Phair for one). So this shouldnt' be used as evidence for anything. >he is sooooo dead and i think the point is that we need to MOVE on >to the music that has been developing presently. Okay first of all, I think you missed the discussion about dead musicians. Just because a person is dead doesnt' mean they should be forgotten. I am not going to list all the people who made great changes in music who died, but I'll mention one: John Lennon. He's been dead almost 20 years, but that doesnt' make the Beatles any less good or influential. Hell, the Beatles were bigger than Jesus (grain of salt...), and to say you're going to forget someone cuz they're dead, esp. if they're bigger than Jesus... well I'm not a fan of religion, but plenty of people are going to go after you for that one. Jesus has been dead for umm... alot longer than John Lennon or Kurt Cobain, but that doesnt' stop Bible beaters and even non-Bible beaters from going to church. And I think the end of religion is a hell of a long way away (excuse my usage of the word "hell"). Also, you mentioned the music that has been developing presently. Incidentally, this sentence follows right after one about the Backstreet Boys. So could you point me to the music that has been developing presently, because all I can seem to find is this bubblegum crap that's no more than pretty faces and fake boob jobs. I think that the music biz has been suffering since at least '94 (is that any surprise? That's the year of Cobain's death.) Which isn't to say the bands who formed before that havent' made good stuff after that, but I can't think of anyone who came out after '94 who has any staying power. I'd be delighted to hear of bands that I'm maybe overlooking. >but everyone knows [Courtney] doesn't like to dwell on her cobain >years.....why do ALL OF YOU? think intelligentlly! There's a difference between being married to someone and trying to escape from under their musical shadow to develop yourself as... *your own self* and realizing and honoring a great talent. If you asked Courtney, I'm sure she wouldn't deny the contribution Kurt and the rest of Nirvana made to the music industry and world. I think you should take your own advice and think intelligently. Otherwise, you'll get flamed by many angry and music-conscious posters. :) We can still be friends, though... don't take it personally. Just think through what you wrote and get back to me later. - -------- New subject: Liz's breasts. I dont' know why we're even thinking about it, but I decided her bra size MUST be 27-D. Why else would she be so obsessed with the number 27? And why else would she sing about 27-D, right? of course! but on stage and in photos, she wears this incredibly reducing bra, that makes her look like a 32 or 34 B. I'm not telling my bra size, but it's bigger yet than anyone's mentioned so far. :) They're my only asset. That and my recently discovered perfect ears. I think I'm the only one who notices those, but actually my mom commented on them, and then I knew I wasn't alone. :) Okay my dad really wants the computer. Later, Nicole "Perfect is a fault, and fault lines change." -R.E.M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 17:03:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Meow Grrl Subject: sandra's post of the week Sex is the most fun you can have without laughing. Just thought I'd say that. Wendy Alkins, if you still want to tape that Ben Lee CD for me, email me. I agree with Michael. Believe me, the way I am (the way we lizsters all are, I believe), if I get a tape of this CD and I like it, I am going to go out and buy the CD. As a poor hs student/college student/ 20something loan payer, I would never have gotten into half of the music I had if it wasn’t for the generosity of others and that extra exposure. I don’t know many people who live off tapes of copied CDs …perhaps they exist somewhere. (I do know people who won’t listen to it if they can’t hack it off the Internet for free, but that’s another story). Hurricane Cindy wrote: Sandra and dp, need I say it: we are TRIPLETS separated at birth. Goofy smart cool and hip, burned by Johnny Feelgoods and Johnny Sunshines,etc.who don't know what they're missing, and currently living the best partofour lives, with or without them! Here, here! I'll drink to that, inmyunderwear! Drinking to it, my dear, though I am fully clothed and the drink is water. Um, I’m at work. Wish I had an underwear story to tell. Wait! I do! Shit, I don’t have time to tell it now. You sing in your car too? Damn, I must get my radio fixed!!!! >>>PEOPLE!!! GO PICK UP A GUITAR!!! Hey, I’m thinking of doing that … anyone have any suggestions for what kind of guitar I should start out with? How much should I expect to pay? - -sandra, who would fit perfectly into Liz’s bra (if she wore one) _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 20:36:18 -0400 From: "Jaime" Subject: ebay and jason's reply! Ah! So I have emailed several people back. I got alot of responses from emailing bidders and sellers. Most friendly... but check this guy out. I know he bid on either girlysounds, the shelved demos or phairities-- All of which were advertised on e-bay as TAPES, not CD's... |>Yes, |>Very delighted! |>Um..........is it possible if you could record it on a CD? |>If not then I'm not interested. Liz doesn't deserve to be on a crapping |>recording. She deserves quality, GOOD SOUND. Not some crappy cassette |>tape. You make me sick!!! All of you supposed Liz Phair fans. Your all |>going to Limp Bizcut Hell. No your not going to Liz Phair heaven where her |>music plays on a CD and in really good sound. No your going to where only |>cassette tapes can be heard, and where crappy music is played on them!!! |>You'll never be good enough if you listen to a cassette tape of her. You |>should be ashamed of yourself. And you call yourself human. |>Sincerely not yours until you learn |>to record Mrs. Queen of indie Rock on a CD, or until you learn to appreciate |>her, |>Frank D. So this guy is an idiot. Bidding $10+ for tapes...when he clearly wants cds only. What a moron. His address is: gia_13@hotmail.com -- if you want to drop him a line, without mentioning my name, since I already sent him a nice reply. Ebay emailed me saying they will take care it all, but I guess a few of my item #'s were wrong...??? I dont know what happened there. |> oh well, whatever, nevermind |>Jase Well put reply, Jason. I completely agree, and I'm glad I didnt have to reply to that letter. Nirvana, (not just Kurt alone) was a phenomenal band that had a voice. That voice was heard and Nirvana took off, soaring to new heights -- especially for alt music. If it were not for Nirvana, countless bands today would certainly be lacking something. I'm glad Kurt touched my life and I thank him for his music and poetic lyrics. Truly a god. My computer is acting up and so I think I'll sign off now-- ~jaime* <<>><<>><<>><<>> 'Almost every character in each of these... songs is engaged in furtive behavior... by balancing verbal puzzles and moments of unequivocal clarity, Steely Dan has learned to keep the vampires from the door.' -- Wayne Robbins, 1980 <<>><<>><<>><<>> ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:48:01 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nicole W." Subject: third time's a... Okay I had to post one more time, because I have actual Liz content to post. I was looking through my (last-- I've finally outgrown it) Seventeen magazine, the september issue, and there is a page showing stuff to take to college (at least that's the theme of the page), and there is a little CD rack, and the only CD that you can see (and you can see the entire cover) is none other than Liz Phair's whitechocolatespaceegg. There is obviously a Liz fan lurking at Seventeen (remember the ticket that someone mentioned?) Allright, I know there are Smiths fans on this list. I haven't gotten into them. I konw they are now defunct, but are they selling out, posthumously? I mean, "How Soon Is Now?" being used as the theme song for "Charmed" and now some car commercial? This sucks cuz yeah, I said I haven't gotten into the Smiths, but I lovet hat song, cuz of the lyrics and stuff. I mean I just like the song, too, but I think it's alot cuz of htewords. "I am human and I need to be loved just like every body else does." Okay, I think I'm out now. Hopefully this is the last of me on this digest. Later, Nicole Shit, I had something funny to write, but I forget it. It had something to do with what's on tv... maybe a funny commercial? MAybe it was that adorable oreo commercial I just saw, where the little boy who drinks from a sipper spills his milk all over the table to get it on the oreo. I swear, just stick a litlte kid in a commerical, and I'll love it. :) okay bye. "Perfect is a fault, and fault lines change." -R.E.M. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 18 Aug 1999 22:52:53 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Some replies Mike Marlatt wrote: >It takes a cool, unique, video (a >good example escapes me) or a catchy line or hook that the listener can grab >on to. This is just off the top of my head, but the video for Weezer's "Buddy Holly" would be a good example. Weezer had already picked up a few listeners with their previous single, "Undone - The Sweater Song," but it was "Buddy Holly" that really broke the band. A lot of that had to do with the video; it was one of those times when there was more talk about the video than the song itself, but it helped the band to really stand out and their album started selling like hotcakes as a result. >(Johnny Feelgood did; imagine a >video with legs and arms flying around the back of a car and then Liz >sticking her head out the window for some air, staring at the camera with a >devilish grin saying "And I liked it!" People who didn't know who she was >would have grabbed on to something as simple as that). This is seriously the most brilliant thing I've read in ages! If only there was someone on the list who could get ideas like this to Liz.... I have no doubt that a video like this would give Liz the exposure she needs -- it's fun, it's provocative, and it's something that would really catch the public's interest. The Indianapolis Star article that was posted yesterday (a good one, by the way!): >Unsure if she'll ever repeat the honest intensity of Guyville, Phair said >she was prepared for "maybe 1,000" copies of the album to be sold in >Chicago's Wicker Park neighborhood. (The album has sold 331,000 copies, >according to SoundScan). This is more proof that SoundScan figures don't always tell the whole story. _Exile_ was certified gold, for sales of 500,000 copies, more than a year ago, yet this figure would have you believe that the album has sold nowhere near that much. Artists who have a strong following in indie stores aren't always well-represented by these sales figures, as relatively few of these outlets participate in the SoundScan system, whereas all of the bigger chains and retailers do. Michael Carapella wrote: >I want to say hey to the new listers and thank all the old >listers for replying to my plea for high-quality positive songs. I meant to get in on this at the time, but just never got around to it somehow. I think many of the songs mentioned by others (Hole's "Heaven Tonight," Sleater-Kinney's "Words and Guitar," Liz's own "Supernova") are great choices, and to those I'd like to add: XTC's "Burning With Optimism's Flames" Joni Mitchell's "Chelsea Morning" and "Night Ride Home" It doesn't surprise me that we've been able to come up with so few. I remember reading one interview with Aimee Mann where she said something to the effect that joy is one of the hardest things to write about and be able to express well. This doesn't surprise me; I think it'd be really hard to write about happiness and really capture it without a heavy reliance on cliches. >Here's the biggest gray area for me. I believe that when people (kids) get >into music, their resources are extremely limited--for some, non-existent. >Following your suggestion, I would would never, repeat NEVER have heard 2/3 >of the music I have in my lifetime if it weren't for taping. Your mix tape >philosophy kind of addresses this, but if someone were to have picked the >wrong two or three Liz songs to put on a tape for me (and I know you know >how hard it is to cut down an artist's catalog to a couple of songs) I >wouldn't be writing this today. >Is it really wrong for three or four high schoolers to buy a couple of CDs >each and make copies for their friends so they get to hear 8-10 CDs as >opposed to just the couple they bought? If it comes down to "hearing," perhaps it's not so bad as a way of previewing new music, but at the same time, there are a lot of other ways to do this as well. A lot of public libraries now have collections of CDs that patrons can sign out, which is a good way to check something out before shelling out the cash to actually purchase it. Also, a lot of online retailers, such as CDnow, offer up sound clips from the albums they sell, and while admittedly the sound quality isn't always that good, it still gives someone an idea of what the music is like. In terms of actually "owning" the music, I really would rather see the artist get compensated somehow. I'm just becoming less and less comfortable with the idea of making copies of an artist's music now, since a lot of people are moving away from audio cassettes and towards digital media. If someone makes a CD-R of an album they've borrowed from a friend, there's really no motivation for them to go out and purchase the actual CD, since they already have it in perfect quality. At least with cassettes, some people may eventually buy the CD to get that better sound quality. Also, I can see what you're saying about it being hard to narrow an artist's catalog down to a couple of songs. I've faced this problem many times in the past while trying to turn people on to Liz and other artists I like. I've reached a sort of compromise that I can live with: While I will not tape a full album for anyone, I feel comfortable enough with filling an entire tape with songs by one artist and providing an overview of all of their albums. It's still not really giving up too much for free, as it still only really acts as a sampler, and hopefully what's on there will have hooked the person enough to actually go out and purchase a CD or two. >Finally, a question. Where do you stand on purchasing second-hand CDs? >The artist doesn't see any cash for that, right? Should people simple >discard CDs they no longer listen to so that everyone has to purchase new >to support the artist? I have admittedly bought used CDs from time to time, but relatively few. For the dozens of new ones I purchase each year, I maybe pick up three or four used ones. For me, it's not really that I'm trying to save money -- I mean, look at all the new stuff I buy, I'm not exactly broke. Rather, it's usually just a way for me to get things that may have fallen out of print, or to buy albums that I wouldn't bother to otherwise (usually those where I really only like one song and hate the rest). The artists in these cases aren't really losing anything; if it weren't for these used copies, I wouldn't have bought the albums at all. I suppose that for some people, it's a way of purchasing music that they've been curious about hearing without taking the risk of buying it new at full price when they really don't know if they'll even like it. I can only hope that if they do like what they hear, they will go out and purchase some of the artist's other work -- and not from the used bins. MLevine171@aol.com wrote: >Most of these artists do it to express themselves..so I don't think >they care if they sell 1 album or 28 million albums.. Yes, most artists make music to express themselves, but don't forget that at the same time, it's also their livelihood, their career. If they don't make money at it, they'll have to get a "real job" in order to pay their bills. It's nice to romanticize the notion that sales don't really matter and artists aren't in it for the money, but the reality is that they do need a roof over their head and to be able to eat. There are plenty of musicians that have been forced to give up the industry because they couldn't make a go of it. And even if they were able to continue releasing music while working another job, I doubt they'd have much time to be creative when they're busy working nine-to-five. I know I've very adamant in my feelings on subjects like this, but I've already watched one of my favorite artists, Jen Trynin, decide to take a break from the industry so she could go back to school. She had released two of the best albums this decade (my opinion, of course), worked hard to tour and promote them, yet she never really got anywhere. It's depressing to watch, and who knows who the next talented artist will be to find themselves in the same predicament.... Moe asked: >Can anyone send me the URL for that Steve Albini article? I never >received the digest in which it was mentioned. Sure. You can find the article at . Also, and this is for everyone, if for some reason you don't receive the digest, you can always go to the archives to read it. The URL is . Jase NP: Cold Cold Hearts, _Cold Cold Hearts_ ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #240 ************************************