From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #239 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, August 18 1999 Volume 02 : Number 239 Today's Subjects: ----------------- soemone i dont like, but respect. [Nach1120@aol.com] Albini and more ["Chris Whitfield" ] It's all too much... [Michael Carapella ] Hole......... ["Sally Mae" ] Re: soemone i dont like, but respect. [tommyk7@excite.com] Re: soemone i dont like, but respect. ["tarleton walmsley" ] things to do in Chicago when you're.....alone ["Chipko Arnold" ] Promotion and Breasts [Mike Marlatt ] liz-phair.com email! ["Jennifer Sayler" ] LIZ IS BEING RAPED ["Jaime" ] insanely long post [farstrider@earthlink.net] That Just Wasn't Nice Now.... ["M.L. Magdalene" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:42:48 EDT From: Nach1120@aol.com Subject: soemone i dont like, but respect. Has anyone else noticed things like that? I really don't like Celion Dion, but she has a lot of hit records. Once. me and a girlfriend were shopping and we heard one of her songs, and we both commented on how we didn't like her. Then later on, I started singing another one of her songs, and we both realized how much we hear of her. Are there any other artists out there you can think of, you really don't like, but have to give credit to because they are really famous? And again, is it just me, but I can spell the word respect with out singing the song. It;s kind of like when i go to the store, i have to think the Oscar Mayer song before i can but bologna (which i would not be able to spell either without singing) Up late and thinking to hard, Christine ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 07:11:22 +1000 From: "Chris Whitfield" Subject: Albini and more ~~~ First off, the Steve Albini article is great, thanks for that one Jase. I read this yesterday in the Guitar World 1994 article on Ken's site. Its kinda topical to this list... >GW: Producer Steve Albini seems to be conducting an inquisition, dissing first Nirvana, and Courtney Love, >then your friends in Urge, and now he calls you a "slut". Any comments? >PHAIR: Oh, what does it matter? Supposedly he has some kind of metal plate in his shin, and one of these >days... > >GW: The electromagnetic principle? >PHAIR: Yeah, I keep waiting for him to attract lightning or something. oh I saw that new shortish Hal Hartley film "The Book of Life" featuring Polly Jean Harvey as Mary Magdalene. See it at your local film festival. more info at http://www.best.com/~drumz/Hartley/ hmm is it just me or does anyone miss the maracas? Exile had them in Mesmerizing, Whip-Smart had Jealousy but there's nothing on WCSE??? cheese, Chris http://www.netspace.net.au/~cerebus NP: Letters to Cleo 1st Dec 94 its nepal its nepal its nepal its nepal ~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:15:21 -0700 From: Michael Carapella Subject: It's all too much... It's all I can do to read the digest each nite, let alone actually post something! I want to say hey to the new listers and thank all the old listers for replying to my plea for high-quality positive songs. I learned two things: 1. I had forgotten a few. Getting Better is about as positive as it gets and, of course, Supernova! A few people pointed out What Makes You Happy, Big Tall Man and a few others which I had included in my original posts, but Supernova really does take strong good feelings about a new relationship and put a great new artistic twist on them. What a celebration! 2. There's a whole lot of songs I just don't know. I'll have to pick them up one by one. Thanks again for the ideas. Now on to our newly-revived and prolific Jase. First a couple of facts/beliefs of mine: 1. Having been a musician in a band selling CDs I definitely wanted everyone that wanted to hear us to buy one. 2. It sucks that supporting an artist takes the form of purchasing an extremely over-priced disc of which the artist often recieves such a pitifully small percentage. 3. I agree with your views on taping, but there are a few gray areas that have yet to be discussed on the list. Here's the biggest gray area for me. I believe that when people (kids) get into music, their resources are extremely limited--for some, non-existent. Following your suggestion, I would would never, repeat NEVER have heard 2/3 of the music I have in my lifetime if it weren't for taping. Your mix tape philosophy kind of addresses this, but if someone were to have picked the wrong two or three Liz songs to put on a tape for me (and I know you know how hard it is to cut down an artist's catalog to a couple of songs) I wouldn't be writing this today. This is the only list I regularly participate in, and it's because my buddy put most of WCSE on a tape for me which I listened to a bunch of times before I got hooked. Is it really wrong for three or four high schoolers to buy a couple of CDs each and make copies for their friends so they get to hear 8-10 CDs as opposed to just the couple they bought? Having said that, it really didn't feel right to me reading someone's offer to tape a whole CD. Just wanted to share some thoughts. Finally, a question. Where do you stand on purchasing second-hand CDs? The artist doesn't see any cash for that, right? Should people simple discard CDs they no longer listen to so that everyone has to purchase new to support the artist? - -Michael ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 03:48:07 -0700 From: "Sally Mae" Subject: Hole......... >But Hole are not very good,musically. They may sell lots of records and have a large fanbase, but it's just a damn shame they can't play(or sing, for that matter) their instruments.< Yeah right they can't! Okay, so Courtney's more of a screamer than a singer but have you ever listened closely to Melissa Auf Der Maur's voice? She has an extremely good voice, on this tape I have of Hole's set of the Melbourne Big Day Out, Melissa sings the start of Paradise City (Hole's "joke" cover for the BDO) and she sounds so nice! And also, don't tell me Courtney, Eric, Melissa and Sam can't play their instruments! Excuse me, but what the hell are you talking about? This reminds me of Spin's review of a Hole concert earlier this year in which Spin stated "Hole's traditionally crappy sound was crappier than ever", what "crappy sound"??????? Byebye peoples- the feather ruffler "You can try to suck me dry, but there's nothing left to suck, just you try to hold me down, come on try to shut me up!"- Gutless by you-know-who *********************************** chickclick.com http://www.chickclick.com girl sites that don't fake it. http://www.chickmail.com sign up for your free email. *********************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 08:42:15 PDT From: tommyk7@excite.com Subject: Re: soemone i dont like, but respect. On Tue, 17 Aug 1999 01:42:48 EDT, Nach1120@aol.com wrote: Are there any other artists out there you can think of, you really don't like, but have to give credit to because they are really famous? Nope. If I think a musician is weak, I'll usually know for myself pretty quickly. No credit, no props. It's just, "this sucks ass." I couldn't care less how many records the Backstreet Boys, N Sync, 98 Degrees, Britney Spears et.al. have sold because THEIR MUSIC IS FUCKING PATHETIC AND THEIR SUCESS FURTHER DEMONSTRATES THAT THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE SIMPLE, SHALLOW IDIOTS WITHOUT EVEN THE SLIGHTEST HINT OF MUSICAL REFINEMENT. Since this is only one of MY convictions about musical tastes, I DO respect others' opinions regarding music, religion or whatever. Sometimes though, I just don't like them. TMK NP: Jennifer Lopez, _On The 6_ Just kidding... NP: Pearl Jam, _Yield_ Peut-être à la fin du siècle vous m'aimerez ________________________________________________________________ Get FREE voicemail, fax and email at http://voicemail.excite.com Talk online at http://voicechat.excite.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:02:59 PDT From: "tarleton walmsley" Subject: Re: soemone i dont like, but respect. >Are there any other artists out there you can think of, you really don't >like, but have to give credit to because they are really famous? I have very high respect for N'sync. They are oh-so-famous. They are oh-so-cute. And what's more, they have grrreat voices. Ahem. I will never respect anything that turns people, and my friends for that matter, into screaming, drooling, idiotic barbarians. It shows bad form and taste. If only all 15-year-olds could be as kewl as me and listen to good music,eh. - -tarl _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 11 Aug 1999 09:10:31 -0500 From: Priciliano Luna Subject: Weston's Liz phair Can anybody tell me about the group Weston and their song "Liz Phair"? Juan ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:33:22 PDT From: "Chipko Arnold" Subject: things to do in Chicago when you're.....alone So, i'll be in the windy city from the 8th to the 13th. What sights should i see? Any Liz related places to go? Anything to lure me away from the coffee shops. Son Volt are playing at that time, so that's one night taken care of. All answers gratefully received. "and i wonder how i've come to know so much less than i knew before" ... Joseph Lee Henry. "i know the promise is so much better than the real thing" ... Grand Drive. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 10:37:51 -0700 From: "dana polachowski" Subject: tell it like it is > In my opinion, I don't think how famous a band is or how well they can > sell their music determines the quality of the music. You may all disagree > with me, and I don't really care. But Hole are not very good,musically. They > may sell lots of records and have a large fanbase, but it's just a damn > shame they can't play(or sing, for that matter) their instruments. THANK YOU!! that's pretty much it.... they can play though--the way *i* can play. and i've been playin' 7 months.... power chords all the way, baby. ho-hum. (i'm pretty much talkin' about the guitar stuff. i have no problem with what melissa's doing...) dp ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 13:44:44 -0400 From: Mike Marlatt Subject: Promotion and Breasts I'm a little late on the "Why WCSE didn't really get off the ground" debate but really wanted to add in a couple of things. I agree completely with Jase (since the single was released) that Polyester Bride was a poor choice for a first single. Mass music typically appeals to the lowest common denominator (ie. Titanic, Ricky Martin, Mariah Carey freaks). One does not have to stoop to their level in order to be successful however it really helps for an "alternative" artist to do something clever (or not so clever) to get the attention of larger crowds. I doubt most radio listeners took the time to interpret what the hell a Polyester Bride is (especially the guys = half the audience). It takes a cool, unique, video (a good example escapes me) or a catchy line or hook that the listener can grab on to. Polyester Bride didn't have that (Johnny Feelgood did; imagine a video with legs and arms flying around the back of a car and then Liz sticking her head out the window for some air, staring at the camera with a devilish grin saying "And I liked it!" People who didn't know who she was would have grabbed on to something as simple as that). And besides who wanted to see a video with her rolling around on a girney with a bunch of Eggs and stock footage anyway. It was like a twisted meeting of Thirtysomething and Metallica's One video. A great example of simple things catching on is Garbage. Although the first few releases off their first album were decent and got some radio play (and my attention), it wasn't until the 4th single "Stupid Girl" came out that they got huge. Why? Simple. People liked walking around mumbling "Stupid Girl....daaaa, da", then they get to see a video with a outwardly sexual pretty woman. BRILLIANT!!! They did all the touring and stuff and attracted a core audience (enough to pickup the 200K in sales or so like Liz did) but it took something simple and catchy to pick up that next million (that fleet of people who buy albums just for one song. Why didn't Capitol copy a successful formula like 95% of every other successful music act. How hard would it have been to catch the masses eyes with a face and body like Liz's combined with honest, blunt, sexual lyrics. Christ, if 2 Live Crew can sell 2 million albums yelling "Hey, we want some pussy", who was the flunky junior VP at Capitol who didn't have the guts to get peoples attention the easiest way; show them pretty faces and talk about sex? Alanis did it, Jewel did it (that slinky video), Liz should have done it and it wouldn't have meant selling out. It would have been interesting, rather than what we got (boring). On the topic of breasts......um....Jamie, I have a hunch that not many girls (or guys) would agree that most people consider a 34C chest "small". I know most guys would consider that very "gifted". Of course, Canada's a little different the good'ol silicon enhanced USA!!!!! As far as guys not being picky? Are you freaking kidding? Don't get me wrong, if the right girl appears to come along and has small breasts (a situation I've encountered at least a couple of times) it wouldn't detract me from her, but I'll personally admit that I've thought to myself, "I think I could marry this girl......of course that would mean going the rest of my life without any "34C" breasts." I guess that's why nudie bars and lap dances are so popular. about a nickels worth MIKE MARLATT Investment Advisor NESBITT BURNS INC. Work Tel: 604-443-1622 Fax: 604-443-1490 Toll Free: 1-888-346-3133 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 14:41:35 -0400 From: "Jennifer Sayler" Subject: liz-phair.com email! Go to www.liz-phair.com to get your free username@liz-phair.com email address. This is a FREE service! Jenny ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:09:57 EDT From: Pony374269@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #238 why do people STILL CARE about kurt cobain. he wasn't a very good musician...it's a well known fact, and he fooled with drugs too much. why is that so impressive. just because he made it into the mainstream doesn't mean he is a god. look at the backstreet boys-they sell lots of stuff to mindless teenage girls, but they sure as hell aren't doing anything cool for the music industry. he is sooooo dead and i think the point is that we need to MOVE on to the music that has been developing presently. as for courtney...go ahead, talk all you want because she is a progressive person since she is ALIVE-but everyone knows she doesn't like to dwell on her cobain years.....why do ALL OF YOU? think intelligentlly! -lindsay ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:58:57 -0400 (EDT) From: "father, I killed my monkey" Subject: liz at lilith Im at my cousin's so im not going to do a big review right now for the detroit show, but i just thought i'd respond to one thing really quick: >The only thing with her signing was that there were two lines, one for >people who bought CDs from Tower, and one for people who didn't. The >Tower CD line went first. I was really disappointed by this - that Liz >would do something like this. But when she got to the table, she wa that's not actually the way it was. *anyone* with a *CD* could stand in the first line. you didnt have to buy a cd from tower. I mean, lilith is really really capitalistic, but it isnt *that* bad!!! anyways, i know this because i was standing in the cd liine, and i had brought Exile and WCSE from home. ok,i'll post a review of theshow when i get home:) sorry for typos, slow connection... steve "i'm fighting to never know this sickness you know but i know it's my own i gave it a home" -sleater-kinney ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 19:02:24 -0400 From: "Jaime" Subject: LIZ IS BEING RAPED alright-- LIZ IS BEING RAPED BY THESE AUCTIONS! ANYONE FED UP BY THIS EBAY THING ?? Are you upset that girlysounds tapes, the shelved demos, and phairities are being sold on ebay for outrageous amounts of money ? So am I. I have recently emailed every bidder on the following items, and told them to join this list and get copies for free. I also emailed the sellers and told them I was reporting them and that I had emailed their bidders. WANT TO HELP ?? Here are the item numbers and such... item #: title: current price: sellers email address: #147823914 Phairities $ 6.50 ken@whatnow.ca url: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=147823914 #147825031 Shelved demos $10.50 ken@whatnow.ca url: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=147825031 #147825734 Girlysound demos $10.01 ken@whatnow.ca url: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=147825734 #146544626 demos, outtakes $31.00 yrindiegod@aol.com and rarities url: http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=146529811 I urge everyone to email the bidders and offer to send them tapes for postage/blanks, also email the sellers and tell them just how vile it is to profit from someone elses hard work. I also suggest emailing E-Bay and letting them know how terrible this is--- and isnt it illegal??? I emailed them all! Let's stick up for Liz and not let these bastards get away with it. This Ken guy didnt bother to change the names of the tapes... bastard. Thanks everyone, ~jaime* - - --- "You can buy it on ebay.com" -- Rosie O'Donnell ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 18:14:06 -0500 From: farstrider@earthlink.net Subject: insanely long post ok, this is really really long. there was an article on liz this sunday in our local paper so i thought maybe everyone would be interested, so i typed it up. please forgive any typos and the such. the paper also had a phone thing set up to hear some of her music, they played clips from divorce song, jelousy and love is nothing. also there was a slightly fuzzy picture of liz in a shinny blue dress. thats about all, my wisdom teeth holes hurt. btw,if anyone is at lilith tomorrow look for the happiest guy there when liz comes out, that'll be me. waiting with little patience steven in indy. heres the article: Rocking attitudes Singer Liz Phair will bring her honest and influential intensity to Lilith Fair at Deer Creek By David Lindquist Indianapolis Star Sunday Edition 8/15/99 Three Lilith Fair artists visiting Deer Creek Wednesday are included on VH1's recent list of the "100 Greatest Women of Rock 'n' Roll": Sheryl Crow (No. 44), Sarah McLachlan (No. 69) and Liz Phair (No. 94). Phair doesn't have the record sales of Crow or McLachlan. Or the Grammys of fellow Lilith act the Dixie Chicks. Or even the chart hits of main-stage opening act Deborah Cox. Phair has, however, recorded one raw, shattering, funny, insightful and accessible album that by itself warrants her inclusion in VH1's top 100. Exile in Guyville, released in 1993 by independent Matador Records, made listeners understand Phair's frustrations as an American woman in male-dominated situations. Her statements were stark in instrumentation and frank in language on songs such as Never Said, F--- and Run, Divorce Song, and Stratford-on-guy. During a telephone conversation from her Chicago-area home, Phair said it was painful for her to listen to Exile in Guyville after its completion. "Now I feel this kind of maternal love for it:'Aww, listen to that sad girl,'" Phair said with a laugh. "It's so far away from me now. I can really see what was special about it." Clearly, mush of the album's brilliance comes from Phair's do or die effort that was captured for eternity. "I can her in my voice how much there was that I was trying to prove. Little toughie," Phair said. "I'm so happy that piece of work embodied that and was energized by that attitude. But I'm really relieved that my real life has so much more power. I have so much more control over my life now." Since Exile in Guyville, Phair has recorded the albums Whipsmart (1994) and Whitechocolatespaceegg (1998). At age 32, she's also married and mother of 2-year old Nicholas. Unsure if she'll ever repeat the honest intensity of Guyville, Phair said she was prepared for "maybe 1,000" copies of the album to be sold in Chicago's Wicker Park neighborhood. (The album has sold 331,000 copies, according to SoundScan). "I thought I was only talking to the hipsters and I could say anything I wanted about anyone else," Phair said. " Now I've got my parents listening to my work, their friends and the mommy circle. What will they think of me?" "You have to really try to struggle and find that voice that's really more honest than maybe you'd feel comfortable sharing with the world. And have the guts to put it on record-which sometimes I do and sometimes I don't." The last Lilith Phair is performing at seven Lilith Fair dates this summer. "It's such a beautiful picture of women in music today," Phair said. "Can you think of anything that so aptly pulled together what happened with women than this?" Without question, McLachlan's Lilith Fair has made its cultural mark during the 1990's. Along with box-office success and extensive media coverage, the festival ahs weathered and overcome criticisms of being too female, too folk or too white. This summer's tour-Lilith's third- consists of 40 dates and a diverse, rotating cast of 43 artists. When the tour ends Aug. 31 in Edmonton, Canada, McLachlan plans to suspend-if not retire-the franchise. " I think, in a way, Sarah really wants to put this to bed for a while," said Phair, who played most Lilith dates in 1998. "This year is more of a media circus. With all these different performers coming in, it has a life beyond her. She's not even necessarily on top of it anymore. She's sort of like, 'OK whatever.' It's run a nice course." Working on it In addition to her handful of Lilith dates, Phair said, she has spent her summer recording demo tracks for an album to be released next year. Over the phone, Phair sang a snippet from Love-Hate Transmission, a tune she said she'll probably preview during Wednesday's performance. The song has a strong mid-60's British rock influence, something Phair said she tapped into after watching the 1998 film Rushmore. "I loved toe attitude of that film," Phair said of the coming-of-age comedy centered on an ambitious and eccentric teen-ager. "That's like an attitude that hasn't been around for a long time and I adore it. That kink of smart, obnoxious…everything that my ego wants to be." Onstage, Phair wants to be a better singer. "My aim is to learn how to communicate," said Phair, who credits vice lessons with helping her to conquer an early-career case of stage fright. "I write these lyrics, which are so important to me. But the way I deliver them is almost antithetical to communication, in a way. I have a very naïve way of delivering." Phair doesn't plan, however, to abandon her syncopated vocal cadence. "It's really just about learning to have a sentence come across the way you mean it," she said, "rather than it being words strung together so it almost seems like cryptic poetry." ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 17:56:58 PDT From: "M.L. Magdalene" Subject: That Just Wasn't Nice Now.... >I'm a 34C and some might call that small, Umm..jamie..the last thing i would consider that is small...but i not be the right person to take any opinion from on that subject...i'm just sitting here debating if i want them bigger or to not exsist at all with my 36 A self... >I'm guessing Liz to be a 34B... I'm guessing your probably right. >Subject: i hate kurt So now you are just looking for a reason for me to bitch at you cause you feel left out huh Nate? Never...ever..ever..say you hate Kurt...it's just not nice...okay..i know that wasn't very good bitching..but you're just to much fun to REALLY bitch at...and besides...then you would know that we were all plotting your demise*s* And you must admit that Live Through This did hella out-sell Pretty On The Inside. I personally like Pretty On The Inside better though. But i will agree with you in the aspect that Courtney didn't ride Kurts coat-tails to the stardom that she deserves. I mean..i love Kurt and i didn't start listening to Hole because of him--and i also dont' think that he wrote Live Through This--as it's not his style. M _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 20:35:08 -0500 From: palik@ix.netcom.com Subject: Re: Studying for a breast exam... > "Lizbian" HA HA! I love it! If I were female, I'd probably be one too. Don ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 17 Aug 1999 23:25:08 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Nirvana Lindsay wrote: >why do people STILL CARE about kurt cobain. he wasn't a very good >musician...it's a well known fact And it's also a well-known fact that he wrote a lot of great songs, and was responsible for at least one album (_Nevermind_) that's already considered a classic. >and he fooled with drugs too much. So did Janis Joplin, Jimi Hendrix, and a lot of other notable musicians. Should that really take away from the legacy of their work? Hell, even the Beatles and Stones were experimenting very heavily with various substances while at their creative peaks. I've never seen anyone use that as an argument against their importance. >just because he made it into the mainstream doesn't mean >he is a god. look at the backstreet boys-they sell lots of stuff to mindless >teenage girls, but they sure as hell aren't doing anything cool for the music >industry. Yes, but if one considers the musical climate back in 1991, then you'll realize how important his contributions were. People take it for granted now that "alternative" music is everywhere (MTV, the radio, etc.), when it never used to be less than ten short years ago. If an alternative album back then sold 250,000, that was considered an excellent showing. The boundaries were much different then, and Nirvana, for better or for worse, are greatly responsible for how things are now. They were the ones who really brought alt-rock into the mainstream. >he is sooooo dead and i think the point is that we need to MOVE on >to the music that has been developing presently. Much of the music that is being developed presently, Kurt has been an influence on or is responsible for in some way. Hell, the fact that certain bands can get airplay now or even signed to major labels has a lot to do with his influence, which has extended far beyond his death. Anyway, Lindsay, no offense, and I really don't mean to pull rank by using the age factor, but I'm guessing that you were too young when Nirvana broke to really grasp the importance of what it meant. If you don't really understand it, you probably weren't there. Oh well, whatever, nevermind, Jase NP: Jen Trynin, _Cockamamie_ ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #239 ************************************