From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #190 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Tuesday, June 29 1999 Volume 02 : Number 190 Today's Subjects: ----------------- what about those who swing both ways? AC/DCs? ["dana polachowski" ] London welcomes tourists [Chipko Arnold ] Respones to Liz: male/female, old/young ["John A. Johnson" ] Girls Just Wanna Have Fun [Katie Lynne ] video tapers. [Priciliano Luna ] YIKES! [sandra ] Re: support-system-digest V2 #188 [Pocee@aol.com] pain [DarkSide oftheMoon ] donnadonnadonnadonna ["MrE" ] 69 in the afternoon ~ with a woman??? ["Jaime" Subject: what about those who swing both ways? AC/DCs? > do you think Liz has ever had a lesbian experience? > I'd enjoy having the group kick that one around. Did she ever discuss > anything on that topic in any interview? If not, what do you think? Think > she ever fucked a girlfriend? yeah, she has. in fact, in one article i read (i think it was in "the advocate" ironically enough) she starts out by asking the interviewer "so are you gonna ask me about my bisexual past?" i guess it was just your typical college experimentation stuff amongst friends. she said they all called it "blurring the edges" [of their relationships, presumably]. she said it would piss her off that the *actual* lesbians in the whole thing would get mad at *her* (and her fellow dabblers) because "you know she's just gonna go back to men." i forgot what her response was to that; probably something having to do with the stupidity of labels, or whatever, i don't know... but, of course, those women have a point... so, that's all i know on that one... all the articles are on liz sites, that's where i read them. toodles, dp ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:46:23 EDT From: TADude9999@aol.com Subject: In regard to interpretation (DMW's 2 cents) I couldn't have said it any better than DMW did from the archives in January '97,courtesy of Jase. For most men on the list I thought this was well worth reading again. I too went out and bought EIG after hearing the college radio station(WXPN) that I used to listen to play 3 consecutive EIG songs the week it was released. It was the music,the message and the raw power with which they were delivered that first brought Liz into my life. What the person that was singing looked like never did and never does entire my mind. The fact that she turned out to be very pleasing to look at is nice,but not a requirement. TAD NP Bettie Servert "Lamprey" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 02:49:39 -0400 (EDT) From: clewis@rpm.com Subject: A convergence of themes Hi, folks- I'm a sporadic poster to support-system, but I'm a faithful reader. I'm pretty deeply into Liz's music - as those on the list who know me would probably readily attest. I've seen a few themes bouncing around for the past week, or so, that seem to actually be converging on one another. As seems to (frequently) be the case on this list, quite a bit of the conversation isn't, strictly speaking, Liz-related. On the one hand, we've got the unfortunate story of Nicole, who seems to be on the wrong side of a relationship. I feel for her - breaking up is no fun. On the other hand, I start to bridle more than a bit when I see men collectively tarred with a broad brush for the various and sundry perceived crimes of an individual. Were a man to level similar charges (...in a similar fashion), the label of misogynist would *surely* follow (as well it should). One of the things I really *like* about Liz's music is that it does *NOT* fall back on the same tired generalizations about gender politics. The music isn't about sensitive, wonderful women being trounced on by men who are out to use and abuse. The truth, in my experience, is that women tend to end up with crappy/abusive men *repeatedly*. A point was made by Sandra about "Johnny Feelgood" - the bad guy who makes you feel good, or something similar. If the reason you're attracted to someone is because they're "bad boys" (whatever the hell that means), it's just kind of pathetic when you complain that they aren't sensitive or caring. In my experience, relationships just aren't as simple as some kind of mawkish hour of quasi-spirituality on Oprah or an advice column in Cosmo. There are *two* rational actors involved in relationships, and they each bear their own particular onus of responsibility. Relationships succeed and fail based on the actions of *TWO* people. As far as I'm concerned, women who habitually pick out these sorts of men forfeit their right to bitch. If you're a woman, and you're convinced that all men are trolls in search of sex, then you should stop spending your time with those kinds of men. If I keep poking myself with a knitting needle, and it keeps hurting, I eventually stop. This just strikes me as a basic survival skill. Now - to speak to Sandra's other point. I'm male, I'm heterosexual and, as mentioned above, I really enjoy Liz's music. I'm frankly more than a bit offended at the suggestion that the origin of my interest *has* to be how physically attractive the artist is - I think this unfairly trivializes both Liz and *lots* of her fans (myself included). Has it ever occured to the women leveling these sorts of claims (..and there have been several in the last week, or so) that some men might actually be *curious* as to what's going on in the heads of intelligent women? Following the logic put forth, I ought to level the charge that the only possible reason that Liz liked _Exile_on_Mainstreet_ is because she wanted to screw Mick Jagger? Heck, maybe I'll suggest that women as a *whole* haven't any hope of _really_ understanding any music written and performed by men. Can you imagine how silly it would be if I challenged the next woman who posts about Ben Folds Five and claimed that she couldn't possibly understand where the music is coming from because she wasn't born with external gonads? Folks - these sorts of arguments (e.g. men are all bastards, men can't understand Liz, etc...) aren't bad so much because of the obvious double standards, they're bad because it represents really weak, sophomoric thinking. Liz's music remains interesting because it *doesn't* have to stoop to these same trite generalizations about men and women. It's about the issues that *smart* women have falling in love and having relationships, and about the bizarre sorts of politics that have sprung up around relationships in general. This makes it interesting - to women *AND* men. If you've listened to the Girlysounds version of _Fuck_and_Run_, you'll note that there's a whole extra verse ("You want a girlfriend..."). Similarly, if the best you can come up with out of _Divorce_Song_ is that the guy is a bastard, you haven't listened very carefully. Liz's songs seem to very rarely have honest-to-goodness heroes (heroines?) and villains. There's always something more going on. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that it would be great if we could all expend the additional effort necessary to deal with one another on a level somewhat deeper than hackneyed gender roles. Women who fall into the trap of generalizing men as a whole are succumbing to *EXACTLY* the same kind of narrow thinking that feminists of generations gone by had originally rallied against.. Women: don't sell yourselves so damned short. OK - sorry for the ramble/rant, I'm going to go back to lurking for a while... CHL ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 01:14:45 -0700 From: "MrE" Subject: ramblinramblinrablin >hey MrE: "....we got-ta get you a wo-maannnn.... >and when we're through with you.... we'll get m-........" ok, >that's enough....(i'm sorry--i couldn't resist) ...if it's all the same witchu, could we 'unget' me a woman...or two...and when we're through... lilith flair: chrissie hynde concerning sarah mclachlan~"I've never met her. It's just show business. The fact that it's all women is a gimmick...That 'angry young woman' thing is mind-achingly dull." quote of the decade: siouxie sioux dismissing michael stipe as a "whiny bitch"...stand in the place that you are... liz phair west coast news: odd but true: mr robinsons-may sales associate to MrE~ "You go Sir!"...i had no reply...still don't... ***not playing: celine dion live at the ozfest~liven it raw ... i'm not popular, i'm just a slut Momus ~~ "The sushi looks marvelous," I tell her soothingly. ... Timothy Price ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 05:33:26 PDT From: Chipko Arnold Subject: London welcomes tourists ....Better get the kettle on! >From: "Jorge (George) Cooper" >Subject: London calling and strippers like Liz to >1) Liz fans unite in Europe !!  My brother and I are going on a PAL >tour >(Prague, Amsterdam and London). I hate acronyms. I wanted to >go on a FUCK >OFF tour (France, Ukrane, etc.) but it would be too >many cities and too >expensive. I thought it would be funny to say >"FUCK OFF" to people >who asked where I was going in Europe. Anyway,  I'll be in London >from Aug >1 to 4. I know some listers are going. Let's get together if >we can. >Chipko, aka Mr. Concert UK, anybody playing that week? Why don't you try visiting Fulham, Uxbridge, Chelsea, Kensington, Old holborn, Fleet st and Feltham while you're in London. Don't worry about saying FO to people here, as a tourist you'll get it said to you, especially during the rush hour as you dither by the undergroung ticket barriers and stand on the left on escalators. Sure fire ways to be welcomed! As for gigs then, as yet zilch August tends to be quiet 'til the end when the Reading AND Terrastock festivals hit town. I tend to work about a week ahead except for big gigs, so it's early days yet >From: "Nicole W." >Subject: calling London >Any of you Londoners know about what the weather in Lodnon is >like from >July 4 thru august 13?  I kno it's erratic, but is there a general sort of >span of temperature that it stays in?  What kind of clothing should I >pack >for London? Bring everything!! I don't know what the F's going on. 2 days ago it was warm and dry, now it's cold and wet. Expect rain, sun, hail and wind. I remember last July 3rd was nice, but cold (well it was on Primrose Hill and i was FORCED to cuddle a Michigan native for warmth). T-shirts are a good idea for any event. Temps generally in the 70's sometimes 80's. I'm sorry if this is vague, but you'll understand when you get here. We haven't had Summer for a couple of years, so it might turn up now. Good luck all visitors. For the best news and music in this fair capitol listen to GLR 94.9fm as they have gig news and live bands playing, it's not much cop at night, but daytime and saturday afternoons are good. "and i wonder how i've come to know so much less than i knew before" ... Joseph Lee Henry. "i know the promise is so much better than the real thing" ... Grand Drive. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:21:09 -0400 From: "John A. Johnson" Subject: Respones to Liz: male/female, old/young On Sun, 27 Jun 1999 18:06:48 -0400 From: Jason Long wrote Sandra wrote: >On THAT note, I have trouble believing that guys can >get what Liz is saying as well as girls can. A guy >told me once that the Divorce Song is so sad it's >depressing, even though he likes the song. And it's >totally not sad in my view. I'll probably get flak >from the guys, but truly, she's a girl's girl all the >way through. On our side, speaking for us. What is it >that guys--hetero guys--get out of her songs? I mean >PERSONALLY? Musicianship and beauty aside ... I'm just >talking about the lyrics and the songs' messages. I'd >really like to hear what some guys have to say. I missed Sandra's original post because I was away from email for a week and then zoomed through the backlog of digests when I got back. I'm glad Jase reposted Sandra's query and the archived response, which does express, in part, how I feel. But I'd also like to take the opportunity to express my own thoughts on male/female responses to Liz, as well as my feelings about being an older fan. First of all, when Sandra says that "I have trouble believing that guys can get what Liz is saying as well as girls can," I heartily agree that Liz is speaking from her own experiences as a woman and that generally women will relate to that more easily than men. Fine. But don't forget that all women do not think exactly the same way, so women will get many different things out of Liz's lyrics. As will men. Also, even if Liz has one particular thing in mind that she's trying to express, do we have to say that her intended meaning is the one true, correct meaning that you either get or you don't? Sandra asks what guys get out of Liz's lyrics and messages, musicianship aside. For me, the main appeal of any song is its ability to send shivers down my spine. Only a few musicians can do that to me, and Liz is one of them. Mostly it is the music itself--melodies, chord progressions, and so forth. When I hear one of her songs in my head, the shivers start. But the lyrics do a lot for me, too, in many different ways. I relate strongly to her brutally honest expression of her dark side, in contrast to her seemingly wholesome, nice-girl exterior. How many of us have lived most of our lives acting good, unable to even talk about our dirty thoughts? Liz speaks them for us. "Canary" is great example. Even when we start expressing our true selves, how many times do things remain pure fantasy because, secretly, we are timid? And how about Jealousy? Who hasn't felt that? I could say specific things about how a lot of her song lyrics affect me personally. I'll add just three to this ramble. For me, Perfect World talks about not being able to be with someone I am dying to be because I am not good enough and/or it would involve cheating on someone I'm already with. Love Is Nothing says it all about how romance turns into damage control. Go On Ahead describes very well the ghost I became after our first son was born. My last thought-of-the-day is about being old. Being old is even worse than being a man. As Dr. Evil said in the original Austin Powers, "There's nothing more pathetic than an aging hipster." Here is how it happens. One day you are 20 years old and the next day you feel basically the same as you did the day before. The kind of music and poetry you liked yesterday you still like today. The next day is the same. This goes on for many years until you become embarrassed with yourself for having feelings that everyone says are inappropriate for your age. But what can you do? - --John http://cac.psu.edu/~j5j/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 06:34:26 -0700 (PDT) From: Katie Lynne Subject: Girls Just Wanna Have Fun Yee haw! Last night was a lot of fun, what can I say? Girls just wanna have fun and it was a Cyndi Lauper concert, a blast! Well, it was pouring rain and I was camping out at the Virgin Megastore and noticed a book by Timothy White that had Liz in it. Nothing exciting, I read the whole article and it basically talked about EIG. The book was about music in the '90s and how it changed the musical world. Go Liz. Another thing at the Virgin Mega-ass is they had a DJ playing music and I said to my mother I wondered if they took requests. I went up there, knocked on the door and requested him to play What Makes You Happy. "Liz Phair? Never heard of her. Is she on any soundtrack?" Well, yeah, the Lilith Fair cds, third volume. Turned out that he never played anything by Liz and it would have been a perfect opportunity I think, a lot of tourists in the store. My mother took the results quite well, I think I turned her into Liz's music, she said I should have requested Flower and described the song as skipping through a field of flowers, a really hippie song. Mother, mother, can't control her half the time. I think I could have gotten they guy to play something if Mom had her WCSE with her in the car. Oh well....as mother said, "Where has he been living in the past two years? With his head up his ass?" My mother, so young at heart. =)Another thing about this request thing with the DJ is he has a sheet where you could write down requests. On the list: Backstreet Boys, The Corrs, N'Sync, Ricky Martin, Britney Spears! Ugh! Katie ();) NP: Marie Wilson_Real Life _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 25 Jun 1999 16:42:35 -0500 From: Priciliano Luna Subject: video tapers. Dear: list Is there anyone who already taped the 1st airing of liz on sessionsat west54th or is going to. that would be willing to dub me a copy on to video in the not too distant future. I would mail you my balnk and its return postage paid and even pay you for your time/trouble and or inconvenience. email me to let me know. juan luna lovepeace and understanding to all:~) loslunas@stic.net ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 09:00:37 -0700 (PDT) From: sandra Subject: YIKES! Hey all you men out there! I am sorry! I have to send this to the list now just judging from the personal email I have already received ... Hey, I *want* to hear that men love Liz for the songs! I did not mean to start a war! Jeezum Crow! I just haven't seen that evidence in *my* life. Most of the male fans I know personally are gay, and those who aren't just don't seem to get it the way I do. I DO NOT MEAN TO BE STEREOTYPICAL BUT THAT IS ALL I HAVE SEEN. Hey, prove me wrong, open my eyes. I'm all over that. Damn, I can't even go on with this b/c I am afraid of the responses. I just wrote two more paragraphs but deleted them. Thanks, Jase, for that message you found in the archives. Just what I was asking about. Please ... I can't take flaming, I am a delicate soul ... But if you do feel an uncontrollable urge to be nasty, spare the list and email me privately. Sigh. sandra _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:12:37 EDT From: Pocee@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #188 In a message dated 6/26/99 10:18:41 PM Pacific Daylight Time, owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org writes: << I'm not sure how much I like "Help!" but I like most of "Let It Be", which leads me to conclude I like the later Beatles, not the earlier stuff. >> Nicole, You might enjoy the versions of the "Let It Be" songs that are on the Beatles Anthology Volume Three. The album release has overdubs of orchestra done by Phil Spector on Lohn Lennon's request. Some of the spirit of the project, originally called "Get Back" is lost imho due to Phil's tinkering. No put down of Phil (one of the greatest producer/songwriters ever) is intended. Patrick ( I usually sign posts as Pat but as gender issues abound in this digest I thought my full name was best.) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 12:08:39 PDT From: DarkSide oftheMoon Subject: pain So I head to the dentist last week knowing full well what lies ahead - the theatre o' pain. But I am set I think, cuz I brought along my walkman and copy of Whipsmart. So I'm in the chair numbed up and ready for midevael torture....alright I tell myself, I can get throught this as long as Liz is serenading me...so I press the play button....but alas, twas not to be.. Yep you guessed it, dead batteries.....ARRRGGGHhhhhh! So I'm forced to listen to NPR classical music whilst Dr. Evil prys 2 teeth outta my head...(any pain?...whatdyathinkdoc....geeez...) The only saving grace, after it was all over... Me: Well what are you gonna give me for pain?" Doc: "Anything you want...you name it." My wife winces and gives me that 'oh god doc you don't wanna do that' stare.. Now this is like giving a kid the candy store key... Me: "Hmmmmmm.....Vicodin sounds good..." Whooo-hoooo! And although I've swallowed more blood in the past 48 hours than Lestat on a tear, it should be a good weekend.... With all the talk of Liz doing beatles covers maybe she should do a whole album cover like she did with 'exile'. How about Rubber Soul? She could call it Rub Her Soul... DarkSide oftheMoon _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 13:03:29 -0700 From: "MrE" Subject: donnadonnadonnadonna ...remember the illustrious new york dolls? those smashing young men upon whom malcolm modeled his sex pistols? think young, female, um, and female and uh, young...and you have the donnas. run out right now (tower is still open on the left coast) and but it, or steal it, or however it is that you build your collection.. MrE ~~ "The sushi looks marvelous," I tell her soothingly. ...Timothy Price ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 16:39:40 -0400 From: "Jaime" Subject: 69 in the afternoon ~ with a woman??? list: I just read the digest... and saw this: >she sings, "I'll fuck you and your girlfriend too." >Which got me to thinking... Okay, it got me to fantasizing (or should I >say Phantasizing.... - you'll have to forgive me from being a male on this >one) - do you think Liz has ever had a lesbian experience? Hmmm... it seems that no subject goes un-touched here at "support-system"... I have wondered this myself. Although, I wouldn't have used the term "lesbian experience"... I'd call it "bisexual experience" -- because I never thought of Liz as a lesbian... Maybe, its the husband an kid. But either way, it does make you wonder if there's any truth behind "I'll fuck you and your girlfriend too"... Maybe she would fuck that girlfriend, maybe she wouldn't... Damn dont you just wish we could email her and ask? I'm sure she'd be more than flattered. She went to college. I suppose its a possibility. I do love her man-loathing and her ability to sing from the male-perspective (and not sound cheesy doing it). But you what is the absolute best??? When she refers to herself as a 'cunt'... I admire that. Not many women have 'balls enough' for that... Laughing to myself--- ~jaime* - -<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>- "I only get high about twice a day, It helps to keep my blues away..." --Bran Van 3000 -<<>>- "Downer Surrealism." - --Frank Zappa, on Steely Dan - -<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>- NP: Liz Phair _Exile In Guyville_ @ ~~~~~~NICOLE W------ cheer up, girl !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 20:31:19 EDT From: Danaldj@aol.com Subject: Mr.E's post In a message dated 6/28/99 Mr.E wrote: < What were you talking about , Mr.E, when you mentioned Evan Dando, some stupid pics?> >>> uh...huh? if you are trying to promote harmony and well-being, then perhaps you should put your ego-centrist self away... UMMMMM Whatever might YOU be talking about? Listen, Mr.E, You are being WAY Oversensitive! I was truly wondering WHAT you were talking about when you mentioned Evan Dando. No one was being rude until your response was posted today. >>or at least learn how >>to be disarming without losing my interest. even slightly entertaining in >> your slams would be a plus. other than that...go away bad dream... WHo 's slamming who here? Not I , for sure! >>Instead we should just try to respect everyone's opinions >>well put...hypocritical, but well put... >> How could that be hypocritical? My current observation is that YOU have been trying to START SHIT w/people for a while now. I am here to learn about my favorite artist and speak to and relate to people w/whom I thought I might have things in common. Thank you for being so rude! dp in nj ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 21:20:40 EDT From: Danaldj@aol.com Subject: Two things First I would like to publicly thank TADude9999 for all the help and cool links he has sent my way on Hawaii. I am psyched! I can't wait to go there!! I guess there aren't any liz phans from Hawaii? Secondly, I would like to express my frustration at a certain phenomenon on this list: Slamming! It seems that every few weeks someone gets antsy and starts shit w/someone about something stupid! I subscribe to and participate in this list because I love Liz Phair's music and enjoy speaking with others who appreciate her music. When opinions are expressed, it seems, that sometimes others make things personal. When Mr.E posted something in reference to Courtney Love and mentioned Evan Dando, he was soo vague that I didn't know what he was talking about. When I asked in a post what he was refering to, he responded, with insults. I am beginning to get frustrated w/all of the back and forth bashing on this list. This should not be a stressful endeavor. I was going to post about my first -ever Liz dream, but Mr.E has really left a sour and sad taste in my mouth, so i don't feel like opening up right now. It was such a real-feeling dream! Maybe later. dp in nj NP: Little Red Car Wreck- "Motor like a Mother" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 28 Jun 1999 22:23:34 -0400 From: Valerie Barry Subject: good things, bad things, pavement, covers good thing that happened over the weekend: after attending my 10 year high school reunion (which was actually fun and replete - is that the right word?- with enough drama to make me feel like i stepped into a john hughes flick) i gave up my seat on an overbooked northwest airlines flight and, in return for my kindness, the airline fairies granted me $800 in travel vouchers! so now perhaps i can travel to see liz, since i haven't yet been so blessed. bad thing that happened over the weekend: i was playing my liz phair live chicago show (the one with "alright now" that TAD so lovingly copied for me) in my stepmom's car (a major treat, since i currently do not own a working cassette player), and when i rewound it, it broke the tape instead of stopping. drat! and i still can't find EIG amongst my CDs >In the immortal words of that guy from westwood one: "This? (plays 'Cut >your hair') ...or this? (plays 'Mmmm mmm mmm mm' (crash test dummies)) >Yeah, I thought so. Here's Pavement." > that's really funny...the "mmm mmm" song is one of my least favorites EVER...it makes me cringe from head to toe, it would be on the soundtrack of my opwn personal hell. incidentally, i saw pavement last week (actually got tickets after it was sold out by calling the club - LOVE those clubs that don't use ticketbastard) and it was quite a good show...i'm actually a semi-new fan and don't have a lot of their older stuff, which is what the crowd really seemed to know and be into (lots of energy coming out of those boys at the 18-and-over show!). check it out. all this argument about covers...i'm from the school that doesn't like when artists record (and especially RELEASE) cover songs, but i love to see them done live, especially integrated with/segueing into one of the artist's own songs, and if the artist puts a new twist on it. it gives me insight into the performer's musical taste and makes me appreciate music i may have written off/forgotten about. classic example: the first time i saw tori amos, she did "i'm on fire" by bruce springsteen, thus renewing my appreciation for the boss and impressing the hell out of me. a good beatles song for liz to do would be "why don't we do it in the road"...i think. or "blackbird." *********************************************************** "...well look at me i'm frightening my friends..." - -Liz Phair ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #190 ************************************