From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #178 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Friday, June 18 1999 Volume 02 : Number 178 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Lilith Fair article [Suzanne Walsh ] james and the giant c word...peachy ["MrE" ] why is rhode island so small? ["dana polachowski" ] and its one two three whata we fightin four...don' axe me i don' giva damn...next stop is in... ["Mr] Re: support-system-digest V2 #177 [Dennis Junkoo Kim ] origins of shane ["Morrise, Jason" ] Uncle Alvarez on the Radio ["Michael Carapella" ] I'm sooo lucky! [AngelLieb@aol.com] The big LK's ["keelyfish" ] Obsession, 60s, Milli Vanilli !!!!!!!!! [Paul Erickson ] Dance of the 7 Veils [Meredith Robbins ] just a few things ["john c" ] "i didnt think would happen again... with or without my best intentions..." ["Jaime" ] RE: Liz's Exposure ["Mike Boucher" ] All I Really Want is Girls....... ["M.L.Magdalene" ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Bounced message [Jason Long ] Re: Liz's exposure [Jason Long ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 22:31:00 -0700 (PDT) From: Suzanne Walsh Subject: Lilith Fair article Here's a rather disturbing article that does relate to Liz somewhat... > > Thu, Jun 17, 1999 Edited by Michael Goldberg > > Jerry Falwell's Magazine Blames Lilith Fair For > Pushing Paganism, Lesbianism > > Moral Majority founder's journal, which earlier > attacked Teletubby Tinky Winky, finds new enemy in > Sarah McLachlan's summer festival. > > Contributing Editor Christopher O'Connor reports: > > The Rev. Jerry Falwell's National Liberty Journal, > which put itself on the > cultural map earlier this year by accusing popular > children's television > character Tinky Winky of promoting a gay lifestyle, > is now blaming the Lilith > Fair tour for that and more. > > Writing in the Christian magazine's June issue, > senior editor J. M. Smith > claims the popular tour -- which folk-pop > singer/songwriter Sarah McLachlan > launched in 1997 as a platform for female musicians > and which opens next > month in Canada -- celebrates a pagan figure and > promotes contraception and > abortion. > > "Lesbian imagery has become quite synonymous with > the [Lilith] legend." -- J. > M. Smith, senior editor, National Liberty Journal > > > Smith's essay also notes that "lesbian imagery has > become quite synonymous" > with the Biblical-era figure Lilith. > > "Many young people no doubt attend the Lilith Fair > concerts not knowing the > demonic legend of the mystical woman whose name the > series manifests," Smith > writes. "Christian parents are advised to consider > the Lilith legend, should > their children become interested in the concerts." > > Lilith was Biblical character Adam's first wife, > before Eve. She was banished > from Paradise after refusing to obey her husband and > later became a demonic > figure. > > While he acknowledges that is the Lilith for whom > the tour was named, Terry > McBride, McLachlan's manager and one of the fair's > four directors, said the > name was chosen to represent equality. > "All I can say is that 'Lilith' and 'Fair' are two > separate words," he said > Wednesday (June 16). "It's about equality. That's > it." > > McBride said the name is not meant to promote any > anti-Biblical philosophies > or force an evil figure on children. "You have to > look at [Lilith Fair] for > what it actually is," he said. "Lilith Fair gets > criticized every year. > [Falwell]'s going to criticize. So be it. All I can > do is point out the > truth." > "We tend to look on the good side of things," > McBride said. "We cannot dwell > on the negative." > > In his essay, Smith criticizes tour organizers for > supporting Planned > Parenthood and for promising to "to dole out more > condoms than ever." > > McBride said Lilith invites organizations, including > Planned Parenthood, to > set up informational tables at concerts. That, he > said, is the extent of > Lilith's relationship with the family-planning > organization, which assists > women and men with reproductive issues, including > pregnancy prevention, > prenatal care, parenting skills and abortion, and > also distributes condoms. > > In late May, the anti-abortion artists' organization > Rock for Life called for > a boycott of this summer's Lilith Fair because it > claimed the tour supported > Planned Parenthood. > > > > A Planned Parenthood representative declined to > comment. Smith could not be > reached. > > > > Falwell, the renowned Christian leader who founded > the Moral Majority, > opposes abortion, premarital sex, homosexuality and > pornography. In February, > the National Liberty Journal, published on the > campus of Falwell's Liberty > University in Lynchburg, Va., ran a "Parent Alert" > accusing Tinky Winky, the > purple Teletubby from a popular children's > television show on PBS, of > promoting homosexuality. That campaign attracted > widespread publicity and > ridicule from protestors who said that Falwell was > going too far in attacking > a lovable children's character. > > > > Much of Smith's essay is devoted to attacking what > he says are lesbian > overtones in the Lilith mythology. > > "One Lilith legend suggests that she took on the > personification of the > serpent and made her way back into the Garden of > Eden where she, not Satan, > offered the fruit from the tree of knowledge to > Eve," he writes. "Lilith > became a mirror that reflected Eve's own beauty in > addition to a forbidden > sexuality that drew Eve to the creature. Lilith then > seduced Eve and they > became one woman." > > > > Later, Smith writes, "Many paintings and depictions > of Lilith present her in > lewd poses, often times kissing a female demonic > figure. The lesbian imagery > has become quite synonymous with the legend." > > > > This year's Lilith Fair tour, which McLachlan has > said will be the last for a > while, is scheduled to feature McLachlan, rockers > Sheryl Crow and Hole, pop > band Sixpence None the Richer, country trio the > Dixie Chicks and dozens of > other acts over the course of 40 dates. It begins > July 8 in Vancouver, > British Columbia, and winds up Aug. 31 in Edmonton, > Alberta. > > McLachlan recently released a live album, > Mirrorball. She is known for such > folk-pop songs as "Building A Mystery" (RealAudio > excerpt). > > Last year, Lilith organizers donated $2 million to > 39 charities, according to > McBride. > === The one and only, Suzanne Explain It To Me http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Hall/9429 _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:03:24 -0700 From: "MrE" Subject: james and the giant c word...peachy >Good question! I'm still trying to get used >to a sweet-sounding girl >referring to herself as the C word! ...would that be contemporaneous or corporatist? >"Laid" James ...and what an awesome song this remains! what ever happened to james? seemed as though they possessed a great deal of talent and an exceptional vocalist and a short lived career... >"Little Trouble Girl" Sonic Youth ...anyone else going to the 'this ain't no picnic' gig with sonic and s-k this coming july 4th? should be a hot (literally) time in the wilds of orange county. >Albert Brooks of the list. not to be confused with brooks and dunn. i only mention this because my non-english speaking japanese neighbors (this is not to be misconstrued as a slam against any group or groups of persons possessing any ethnic of racial qualities in that we are of a truth, just people) were learning to line dance in their driveway they other day to the tune of 'boot skootin (?) boogie...almost as much fun as kareoke night some time ago when they got on down (get on up again) with 'house of the rising sun'...'der iz how in neworlee, day caw duh'...a rockin good time... >2-12-99 analog source have 2 extra >4-23-99 dat source, slight overload of preamps 2 extra >3-18-94 fuck and run source ??? >10-17-98 cdr source with dae >10-15-98 dat source through analog sound card >also if you are really into a hq trade i have the 10-15-98 >through a digital sound card on hd and ready to burn. ..uh, try penicillin and abstinence... regardless Momus ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A busted ship? A busted ship and I'm strapped in here? I had a great spot picked out out there!" Steve Bucsemi ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:18:16 -0700 From: "dana polachowski" Subject: why is rhode island so small? > i know this is really horrible, but wasn't there one or two pilgrims that > were exiled for beastiality? i think they went on to found rhode island > or something. oh my fucking god... after laughing my bony ass off i was wondering: what history book is THIS in?? this is a *gem*. thank you... > > Sometimes I wish I was born in the '60s....everyone seemed to be sooo > happy and have no worries:-) and of course the thought of being high and > /or drunk all day would be a bit of a bonus:-) as a person actually born in the 60s, the fact is that, really, you had to have been born in the 50s to get the full-on participation thing going. these were interesting people to watch, let me tell you. because they WERE stoned and drunk all day. every day. 24-7. i am not making this up. and they were funny, too, when they weren't killing each other. that part wasn't so funny.... actually, the 60s were some damn angry times--but that's a looonnng post that i am not going to make. >For me, if I did > this it would have to be totally ironic. I mean, I don't know what she was > thinking when she did it. Maybe she was really into it. Cause I know these > are sentiments that some women really feel. [Laughs] There's obviously > girls who related to it. And then there were, of course, all the writer > nerds, critic guys, that really got turned on by it. steve!! argghhh!!! she IS being totally deliciously slyly ironic.... ironic with a capital "o." that's the thing: she's being so up-front and "back-door" at the same time. (i still love the man, though. he can cut my hair anytime....but why do i feel that that statement would make him sick...?) aahhh, fu-GED-aboud-it!!! dp ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 02:35:06 +0000 From: "Tim Sanderlin" Subject: Major Labels... Mike wrote: " Not sure how it is on Capital, but over at Universal they have a handful of favorites, and everyone else has to scramble for promotional funding. Friends of mine, on their second album (first one sold roughly 500,000 copies, maybe more {SoundScan wasn't too accurate then}, so it's not like they're hopeless) the company paid for only three radio appearances, no tour support, and isn't pressuring radio stations at all to play their songs. Very disheartening. So I wouldn't expect any other big record company to be cooperative. But over at Sony/550, those guys are cool, and very supportive. Spend money like they've inherited it from Daddy." I find it very surprising that your friends received ANY money for radio appearances... We were told that if we wanted a radio tour to "get in your van and go. Oh, and make sure you take copies of your album along." (no promos, mind you... copies that came out of OUR pocket!) That's why you don't see artist like Liz or Beth Orten or other artists that this list seems to favor go out on long extensive tours. Most record companies demand that you pay back a portion of their promotional cost. This includes touring! When you figure in that most artists make only about $1.25 a record (if you're in a band, that's $1.25 split b/w all of you!) then it's no wonder most artists are leary of touring. If you want your label to press stations into playing you, it's gonna cost you, whether it improves album sales or not. No other business does this... It would be like going to work at a computer company and then being told the cost of your desk, office supplies, and your computer were all being taken out of your salary. The artists make money for the label, then have to pay them back for supplying them a product!!! Now there are some artists that foot the entire bill for a tour so they can get all the profits, but that is a rare beast indeed... Sorry for the long post, but I wanted people to understand that it's a tough world out there for working musicians and although it seems simple that radio=sales and exposure=more money, it isn't always the case... - Tim... ********************************* I'd love to stay here and be normal, but it's just so over-rated... -blur ********************************* NP: Be - Byramid ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 00:43:36 -0700 From: "MrE" Subject: and its one two three whata we fightin four...don' axe me i don' giva damn...next stop is in... >A while back I posted a message practically begging for a copy >of Girlysounds because evidently I'm the only person >alive who doesn't have it. ...but does any one else have only one of four possible sides, or digitally speaking, one quarter of the cd? don't ask... >Jackie (please pardon the long message, but I'm mildly retarded >and sometimes don't know when to stop) ...and i suppose that makes me, uh,.., >Sometimes I wish I was born in the '60s.... >everyone seemed to be sooo happy and have no worries:-) >and of course the thought of being high and >/or drunk all day would be a bit of a bonus:-) ...i think the operative word here is 'seemed'...and it seems to me that we were all high and or drunk and or both for reasons having more to do with ghosts in the attic than just being laid back...nothing quite as exhilarating as watching your world, real or hallucinated melt away, drifting slowly down the drain of that which could have been nirvana, but was merely another sewer...for your copy of today's lecture, send $19.95 in canadian dollars or south african mandelarands to: Momus Unknown c/o the address on your screen... *Jaime* -did you make all that relationshit stuff up or was it all just something you saw in a cloud of smoke...jus kiddin!! regardless Momus ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A busted ship? A busted ship and I'm strapped in here? I had a great spot picked out out there!" Steve Bucsemi ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 04:53:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Dennis Junkoo Kim Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #177 That reminds me a of a story. When i was a junior in high school, i sat next to a beautiful girl in ap us history, who apparently read a racier textbook than i did. The teacher asked "does anyone know why these pilgrims fled the original colony?" She blurts out (now "blurts" is a not cute word, but trust me, when she said it, it was cute) quite seriously: "Bestiality?" Everybody took it in stride, or didn't know what it meant. I on the other hand, had to feign choking to keep from laughing. Or maybe they were just ugly. I mean, bestiality may have been tough. My impression of the local fauna goes something like "oh, look. a wild turkey. a tree squirrel. By the buckles on my shoes, Goodman Smythe, there lacks of any attractive anymals in the whole of thys wood. I blame Goody Prynne, for she is the one responsible for leaving the sheeps at the docks. O, for to be in Aetoaria where the fleece is plentiful." Historical note: Aetoaria is now known as New Zealand. On Fri, 18 Jun 1999, support-system-digest wrote: > >From: raymond lew > Subject: dirty-minded pilgrims > > i know this is really horrible, but wasn't there one or two pilgrims that > were exiled for beastiality? i think they went on to found rhode island > or something. so i guess the ugly pilgrim thing could be this > guy...uhmm...and this sheep...and, uhhh... > > ugh. this is not something i should be writing about while i'm eating > breakfast > > ...ray > - --- "Your manuscript is both good and original, but the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good." -Samuel Johnson "A'nta baka?" -Asuka d. www4.ncsu.edu/~djkim2 ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 06:11:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Mike Connolly Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #177 > From: "chemhalo" > > "Shane" always seemed to me to be about a boy going > off to war...I actually did a class project where we > brought in songs either written during or about > Vietnam, and I brought "Shane" in for the class. Shortly after WS's release, there was an article in Rolling Stone by a guy named Shane who swore he was the guy in the song. Anybody else have more info on this? And Chemhalo, you should credit the quote on your e-mail signature. Unless, of course, you're the person who wrote that particular stanza... === Mikey C Va Beach "When money talks, I try not to listen But lately it's been screaming in my ear." - -Ben Folds Five, "Emaline" _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 08:12:45 -0500 From: "Morrise, Jason" Subject: origins of shane >"Shane" always seemed to me to be about a boy going off to >war...I actually did a class project where we brought in >songs either written during or about Vietnam, and I brought >"Shane" in for the class. I guess my interpretation of shane has always been influenced by an article I read in playboy a few years back that was written by a guy named shane claiming to be one of liz's ex-boyfriends. the title was 'if you like liz phair, you'll love shane...' whatever his last name is. he says in this article how liz owes her success to him, because she recorded her first album on his stereo or something, and something else about how 'shane' is about him and that everyone knows that it is the fifth song on the second album that makes or breaks a rock star's career. I never questioned whether or not it was true that he had dated her (maybe I should have), and the song does seem like it could be about the end of a relationship, or at least the night that it went sour. then again, I probably think that because of that damn article. non-liz content: >night.......i had front row center tix for ani!!!!!!! it was >amazing...SHE is amazing. for those of you who have never seen her live >and are unfamiliar with her songs, do not let this deter you from >attending a show... ani IS amazing, especially live, and anyone who wants to try her out for the first time should definitely start with 'living in clip,' her live double-disc album. I just watched a cnn newsstand last night that had a feature on ani and righteous babe records, it could have been longer, but at least she is getting some form of publicity. jake ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 17 Jun 1999 23:29:05 -0700 From: "Michael Carapella" Subject: Uncle Alvarez on the Radio >Someone said they knew someone who heard "Uncle Alvarez" on the radio, must've >been non- commercial , esp. since there was only one single. Yeh, it was my friend Betsy and she heard it on KCRW or NPR or something like that. And she went and bought the CD. What a concept! I have her to thank for introducing me to the music of Liz Phair. Otherwise, I'd still be listening to nothing other than Phil Hendrie on AM640... ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:00:57 EDT From: AngelLieb@aol.com Subject: I'm sooo lucky! JC wrote: "I like Jaime's theory on whip-smart..." Me too. ;) Sorry for being kinda short on Liz content here, I'm just soo happy cuz I feel like such a lucky girl! I found both of Aimee Mann's cds yesterday, couldn't be any happier! Even better is the film festival here in Orlando is gonna show Hard Day's Night downtown and I can't wait to see it this weekend! Yay! See the Beatles on the big screen! The only prob with me being so happy is when I head to work, happy at work = sing a lot of Liz songs. I'm surprised I haven't been fired yet cuz of the songs I do sing. =) Katie ();) NP: annoying washing machine, but me jumping up & down in my head ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 10:25:42 -0500 From: "keelyfish" Subject: The big LK's Hi! I'm sure somebody probably already said this, but I'm going to go under the impression that the big LK's are the Latin King's. Yes, a gang, and yes, a Chicago gang. I'm assuming that b/c she's also mentions the Gangster Disciples (G.D.'s) who are the rival gang. It's like west side story! Wow! k ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 09:15:42 PDT From: Paul Erickson Subject: Obsession, 60s, Milli Vanilli !!!!!!!!! <<>> You're probably obsessed, but at least you're obsessed with something cool that makes you happy. I've been there. First with Sting and The Police, the Depeche Mode and Pet Shop Boys, now Liz Phair. I just spent $60 to get a Liz poster framed so I can hang it in my bedroom so the first thing I see upon waking up is her. Hopefully her image will inspire me. Anyway I can definitely relate. Seeing Liz at Lounge Ax earlier this year was the closest I've come to a religious experience in a long time. <<>> The grass always looks greener but it rarely is. <<>> Well they did win a grammy, but you're right they eventually had to give it back. But shit, you think you're going to be making all that money and then easily give it by confessing. That would be a tough, albeit, gutsy move. I'm sure they were in a difficult situation and the reality of their situation had probably been distorted by all of the evil record execs convincing them that what they were doing was okay. I'm sure they weren't the ones that went to the record company and said, "Hey, we can kind of dance a little but we can't sing so how about you give us a record deal but like have other people sing for us in the studio and then we'll just lip sink on tour." It would have been hard for anyone in their situation to keep a straight head. Anyway, I wouldn't call myself a fan, but I guess I have a lot more sympathy and compassion for what happened to them compared to the average person. To me, it seems they were more likely pawns of some manipulative record company execs. Yeah, the OD death is sad. I guess he never recovered from the crushing downfall. _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:40:58 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nicole W." Subject: i hate this printer Okay sorry... I am just trying to print something out and it's NOT working. First it wouldn't print in color, and now it's just printin all over the fucking place. Ugh!!!!this is such a waste of paper and ink! I have to reprint it! More than that, I have to take a shower so I canbe at work soon... so I can work my ass off and then party . yeah. Anyway, to Mikey C-- What I meant when I said that that one thing wasn't the name of the Beatles album was that "It's Still the Beatles" wasn't the name of the album. The album IS called "The Beatles" but it's not "It's Still The Beatles", which is what I wrote in the NP line. I mean I wrote "NP: it's still the beatles". Man I have just successfully wasted s hitloads of paper. What's that song? "You have got to waste shitloads of p-a-p-e-r paper..." Anyway, I'm going to reply to an e-mail publicly cuz it saves me time cuz I won't have to write two e-mails, plus it's like... relative to SS... DaisyFoo... okay I'm not crazy... the two songs do sound alinke to someone else. alike. not alinke. i dont' know whta alinke is . Yeah. Don't have any other content, i don't think. hmm. baaaah. Later, Nicole ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 19 Jun 99 03:41:25 -0400 From: Meredith Robbins Subject: Dance of the 7 Veils wrote: >Anyone know what "the ugly pilgrim thing" is in the >line "I know all about the ugly pilgrim thing" in >Dance of the Seven Veils? It's just very odd and I >didn't know if there was any significance to it. Oh, boy, song microanalysis! One of my favorite things in the whole wide world! They should make it an Olympic event. I bet the IOC would if we sent them some nice gifts, put their kids through college or something... Anyways, regarding the mysterious "pilgrim thing": I think it's a. a pun with the "entertainers bring may flowers" line, as someone else pointed out; and b. a religious reference (the crappy-ass American Heritage Dictionary on my computer defines a "pilgrim" as "a religious devotee who journeys to a shrine or sacred place"). I'm really sick right now, so I'm not equipped to explicate on this further, but there you go, make of that what you will. Meredith +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "On rocky islands, gulls woke." --Esther Forbes, "Johnny Tremain" New at Netville: ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:12:27 -0400 From: "john c" Subject: just a few things 1. so i cruise ebay once in a while to see what is available for liz stuff. i sometimes try to convince buyers not to buy live performance cds that they could otherwise trade for. was kinda shocked to see this one: "Liz Phair Secretly Timid The Girly Sound Rec. $71.01 10 06/20 18:56" seventy one dollars. huh? wish i had time to make these bidders copies. 2. so i have a couple extra cdrs from a trade that never happened. 10-15-98 sessions at west 54th (also inquire if you want to trade for full digital 2-12-99 portland maine unedited copy of this) 4-23-99 mt holyoke (just ok quality) so i want to give these away, no cost to you, to people who will make copies of them for friends and poor ebay bidders. only have 3 extra so if you don't hear back from me you can guess why. 3. as far as the ss thing goes, you should not be afraid of social security paul. we are a long way from needing this and we should be working towards a solution, not just whining about it. so IRAs are a good solution to the problem. OH NO not the irish replucan army, how can they help. i have been thinking about changing my name, the initials JC might offend some non-christians. i understand where PE is coming from though, but i have not been able to stop thinkin about it for a while now. so one of my favorite quotes as of late: "Trust the computer industry to shorten 'Year 2000'to 'Y2K.' It was this kind of thinking that caused theproblem in the first place." Anonymous 4. finally with the for the soundtrack thing, i was way too wasted in high school so i guess an old grateful dead tape would have to do, not a good one either. so some of above have been crackin me up for days now. send me your mailing address paul and you will get a cd. no offense intended. peace john ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:19:11 -0400 From: "Jaime" Subject: "i didnt think would happen again... with or without my best intentions..." >Sometimes I wish I was born in the '60s....everyone seemed to be so >happy and have no worries:-) and of course the thought of being high and >/or drunk all day would be a bit of a bonus:-) >Marlie Marlie... I have one question... what is stopping you? Be happy, have no worries and get high!!! Why not? I do! :) >I like Jaime's theory on whip-smart...the only problem is >that a couple of songs, notable "Shane" and "Dogs of LA" >interfere with it, because of the specific subject matter. >"Shane" always seemed to me to be about a boy going off to >war...I actually did a class project where we brought in >songs either written during or about Vietnam, and I brought >"Shane" in for the class. I think that "Dogs of LA" is >somewhat related to the film Reservoir Dogs. > JC I know that "shane" is about being drafted. I wasnt analyzing the song, I was analyzing the set up of Whip Smart as 'the typical relationship'... Being drafted isnt exactly a common occurrence in most relationships. So I was focusing on the line "you've gotta have fear in your heart"... because when it comes to a relationship-- you gotta. Right? yep. As for Dogs of LA... I never associated it with Reservoir Dogs... I dont see a connection there, I simply assumed it was just a quirky-pretty song thrown in for fun... I may post again, I may not... ~jaime* ~~~ "...poetry is not an expression of emotion, but an escape from emotion..." ~T.S. Eliot ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 14:17:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Miz Phair Subject: recent support-system returnee Hi all! I'm recent returnee Paige and just wanted to say hi to everyone. I still haven't seen Liz in concert, so if anyone wants to regale me and make me insanely jealous by hellaciously cool stories about doing just that, please email me privately! How's everyone been? Any new Liz news? Think she'll EVER come to Florida? p= ps from ps. i'm listening to supernova right now and i think, yes, I CAN conquer the universe!!! love to all!!! _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 18:11:42 -0400 From: "Mike Boucher" Subject: RE: Liz's Exposure Jason Tedford - I forwarded your note on Liz's exposure to my friend Scott (who is not on the distribution list... YET) because I thought it was such a well written and thought provoking editorial on the Liz's exposure topic. He agreed that your response was "very intelligently written" and made a comment of his own, which I will quote: "This guy's response is very intelligently written. He's completely correct about video's decline as a promotional tool. And think about this... Do you think Liz is bummed out with her current success level? I doubt it. Are her fans bummed out? I'm not. I like the fact I can see her at a benefit in NYC, be able to set my drink and ashtray on the stage within 3 feet of her, take some neat photos, and then actually TALK with this beautiful, unpretentious performer after the show. Sounds like a Perfect World to me." - Scott Drager I think Scott says it best. I'll admit that at times I have wished Liz would get the recognition and fame that she derserves (although one should wonder - is fame what she's really after??). But as a selfish fan who has always preferred to follow 'the perfomer less traveled', as opposed to the bandwagon of mainstream music mush that everyone else enjoys, I agree with Scott.... As a phan, am I 'unsatisfied' (to quote Paul Westerberg)??? Hell no!!! I too will take comfort in the rarities (or should I say Pharities) of fewer performances, tv spots, etc. if once and a while that means I can met her in person and have a photo taken with her. Hell ya! As for Liz... is she bummed? Does she want more fame, more money, more recognition? Or is she content with having 700 fans on a distribution list talk about her everyday? Would having 5000 phans on this list make her happier? It sure as hell wouldn't make me happier to have this intimate collection of notes and discussion cluttered by more and more and more phans. Just my two cents... Mike ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 16:39:05 PDT From: "M.L.Magdalene" Subject: All I Really Want is Girls....... Okay, so this has some actual real live Liz content. I just met another fellow Liz phan(it's always so much fun)and i was telling her about the list and we decided that in addition to us covering it we really thing Liz should cover that Beastie Boys song..and i'm not really sure what the name of it is but i do believe it's on "License to Ill" and it's like...GIRLS..all i really want is GIRLS...anyways..i think it would be totally bad ass of Liz to do that.... M _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 21:10:16 EDT From: Danaldj@aol.com Subject: WCSE tour, LK's,vaginas, whipsmart Jaime---- I heard the same thing about Whip Smart being about the stages of a relationship and it makes sense, I liked your interpretation, esp. the part about mayqueen- you hit the nail on the head. And it is an awesome album, in fact I am listening to it right now! << that mitsubishi comercial that uses the pixies song..grrrr. we're a market segment, dammit.>>> What pixies song is that? and what commercial is it? The vagina: would be awesome for the next album or if she was releasing Grilysounds it would be even more appropriate..oh, the ideas of sounds and liz's dirty mind and vaginas has my imagination going and not in a perverted way, but in a creative way. Anyway, the vagina idea would be fitting if it wasn;t tasteless but I am afraid to say that I don;t think it would happen w/ Capitol. <> Oh YEah!! Duh!!! I swear I knew that, but never would have thought that! <> That was very funny!! You go girl(um I mean, Guy!) Michael Carapella wrote: <> Are you kidding me? Not touring relentlessly for WCSE? She started w/Lilith in the summer , then went right into the WCSE tour in the fall, then continued by touring w/Alanis in January and Feb.,then started a college tour in MArch thru MAy and is doing Lilith again this summer- that's practically a year on the road!!!!!! One last thing, and then really I will go: THank you Valerie for that awesome Pavement on liz commentary(oh I mean Elizabeth Clark) I really enjoyed reading it! Um I don't think I can refer to liz as Elizabeth Clark cos it reminds me too much of Clark bars and Clark Kent. see ya dp in nj NP: Whip Smart ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 22:20:24 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "John" Subject: liz on mtv I think what we should do is get the whole list to go to mtv online and vote for liz's video polyester bride for the show total request live over and over. this way we can not only see her beautiful video, but we could open more people up to her music and her. What do you guys think? anna ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 22:20:39 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "MrE" Subject: contact lucas? where you are? and jorge? and mr old as me in long beach? e mail me-i lost all addresses when i joined that satanic bad boys club...my Portland OR friends, home of the k dunn and several of my children (without tails)...contact me Momus MrE@mr-e.net ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A busted ship? A busted ship and I'm strapped in here? I had a great spot picked out out there!" Steve Bucsemi ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 22:20:33 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Bounced message From: "MrE" Subject: auctions: bonus round.....plus other sparkling reviews! and in the bonus round, let it be known that i have purchased as many as one hundred items from ebay, amazon and yahoo in the six months and to date have neither been ripped off, mislead or denied a full refund including postage for one (1) item i felt to be REALLY inferior and two items lost in the mail. you may call them 'antichrist' and believe their sole thrust is to extort your monies, but i have through them collected a number of rare volumes at tremendous pricings for myself as well as a plethora of collectibles for my very dear and very ill beloved, which is my primary reason for being there at all. i suppose it depends upon your interests. my venture into liz land was brief and produced but one item of interest described as 'new in wraps, professionally done cd-ROM containing several extraordinarily clear videos and 600 hundred special photos of liz'. my thought was that the photos would be great for some of our now famous liz sites and i would very much have enjoyed the 'clear and great sounding videos- this supposedly due to some great technology'. all of this new and in wraps blahblahblah...and nothing even remotely close arrived in my mail box. now i suppose i could report him to ebay or amazon or wherever i crossed paths with him, but a new id etc, and what the phuch have i actually accomplished. and by the way, there are a number of us out there searching the sites for obvious fraud, so far i have turned up and in a number of bogus nirvana, barker & p j harvey items, bidders and sellers. so, put up or shut up. some of us have things to do either than sit and thumb-wave as the world plummets.. and anyone else wanting to help clean things up, help is always needed. which leads me to another even less popular point. without the names, i really believe that if some one inquires of you information that you have promised concerning items long since overdue, if you cannot respond with a half dozen words to said inquiry with some pertinent information taking at least 10 seconds of your time while you are most assumedly on line already, then just point that loser attitude back in your own reflection because the very best tag i can attach to such would be 'lazy and inconsiderate'. enuf full Momus Momus ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "A busted ship? A busted ship and I'm strapped in here? I had a great spot picked out out there!" Steve Bucsemi ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 18 Jun 1999 22:34:56 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: Re: Liz's exposure I've been meaning to jump into this discussion for the last day or two, as I find it completely baffling why _whitechocolatespaceegg_ hasn't been a bigger success than it has. Here's my take on things. THE ALBUM: WCSE is easily the most accessible of Liz's releases yet. One of Liz's liabilities in the past was that some people couldn't get past her voice, but here you can tell that she has been working on it a lot, and while many of us fans may miss the conversational quality of her vocals on past works, her voice sounds much stronger and confident on this record. Another difference can be found in the songwriting. While Liz has always been a bit of a "code-fucker" in the past, making use of unconventional song structures, here she opts more often than not for standard verse/chorus/verse. Perhaps her past work was challenging for some because it lacked certain anchors, such as repeated choruses or refrains, and followed its own path. Here she works around that, and thank God that in Liz's hands, leaning more to the conventional side of things doesn't mean being boring. Production-wise, Liz's music has never sounded so polished and crisp. I'm a sucker for the lo-fi charms of _Exile_ and the mid-fi _Whip-Smart_, but a lot of these songs sound like they should be blasting from every car radio at full volume. The songs themselves are much more accessible than those in the past, especially for those who may have been put off by some of the more in-your-face early material. While Liz is for the most part tackling new topics, when she returns to her old ground on songs such as "Johnny Feelgood", she still gets her point across, but with a little more subtlety than in the past. The only listeners who would feel they were missing out on anything are those who completely missed the point of the first two albums in the first place and got off on the cheap thrills offered by the more explicit material. Liz does retain some of her "quirks" on the more experimental material, such as "Headache," but even these songs would go down much easier for the average listener than a lot of earlier cuts like "Johnny Sunshine" and "Shatter." [Side note: I know that for us, "Johnny Sunshine" may not sound all that "weird", perhaps partly because we're so used to it that we don't notice how off-beat it is, but sit back sometime and listen to it, imagining the perspective of an average radio listener. It's quite a trip to do so, and after pondering it for a while, I can honestly say that I don't think I've ever heard another song that's anything like it before. No wonder some of Liz's music tends to throw non-fans for a loop!] The album has quite a few songs that, to me, sound like they have hit-potential. "What Makes You Happy" would have made an excellent single and probably would have picked up many new fans for Liz, and "Big Tall Man" sounds radio-ready as well. "Johnny Feelgood" and "Polyester Bride," both of which were released to radio as singles, should have been much bigger than they were. They were both solid, deserving cuts -- solid hooks, great lyrics, clever melodies.... What more could a person want? All in all, WCSE is a solid collection of songs. I do have a few minor quibbles with the album, though, such as the fact that by ending it with three slower numbers, the album goes out with a whimper, unlike _Exile_ and _Whip-Smart_. And while I unabashedly loved WCSE when it was first released, now that I've heard some of the material that didn't make the cut for the album, I feel that the album could have been even stronger had certain songs been cut in favor of others. In fact, of all the material recorded during the sessions for the album, "Blood Keeper" and "Freak of Nature" are the two that I enjoy most, and neither made the official release. THE PROMOTION: First off, considering how Liz is more of a critics' darling than a commercial force, she received a mind-boggling amount of press for the record, both in the form of interviews, articles and reviews. That said, while it was nice to see, it wasn't really all that surprising. Liz is credited as being one of the few, earlier in the decade, who set the stage for the whole 'women in rock' phenomenon to happen. Even while she was pretty much away from the business, it wasn't uncommon to see her name-dropped and quoted in articles on other emerging female artists, and even though she had no new album to sell or tour to promote herself, Spin, Rolling Stone and other well-known publications were still running pieces on her. It's not hard to see why either: Liz does have a loyal and interested fan base, she's incredibly photogenic, and given her life history, her wit and intelligence, she makes for good copy. If an article on Liz fails to capture a reader's attention, it's most likely because the writer found a way to fuck things up. Secondly, Liz undertook more touring this time around than at any time in the past. If you look at all the shows she played, she's given more live performances this past year than in all other years combined. Last summer, she performed something like 20 dates on the Lilith Fair tour, and as I remember, the only artists who played more were Natalie Merchant and Sarah McLachlan, the two headliners who played at all the shows. A month after that tour finished, Liz was on the road for a fall tour to promote the album, where she played over a month of dates. After taking some time off around the holidays (and canceling twice what would have been a second leg of the tour, one of the few mistakes she made promotion-wise), she did a string of dates opening for Alanis, which she then followed up with the one-off benefit show at the Lounge Ax in Chicago, then the dates on the college tour this spring. During all of this touring, Liz did go around to a few radio stations to give interviews, and she made the rounds of the talk shows (performances on Letterman and Leno, a performance and interview on Rosie O'Donnell). She also appeared on MTV's 120 Minutes and on MuchMusic, giving interviews to both, and taped a show for Sessions at West 54th. The thing is, if you look at all of this, you don't exactly see Capitol doing much. Most of the reviews that appeared in magazines would have happened with or without any promotional support from them; a lot of these music writers are people who have been writing about Liz for years now. As for the interviews and articles, Liz does make for a good read and a lot of people were genuinely interested in what was going on with her, since she had been away for so long after being one of the forerunners of both indie music and the 'women in rock' thing earlier in the decade. Liz has her own management and booking agents who set up her tours for her. From what I understand, Liz doesn't need to rely on a label for tour support since she commands such a high fee these days. Her shows routinely sell out, and in the case of the Alanis and Lilith dates, she would have been paid to perform on those tours by the organizers. These days, Liz is not an act that loses money on the road, so she doesn't need to rely on any assistance from Capitol. That said, I doubt she makes very much money herself while touring, given her tour expenses and how much she would have to pay the crew and band, all of whom are professionals. These are no longer the days of Liz, Brad, Casey and Leroy, where they would slug it out on the road for next-to-nothing just to support Liz's records. Matador and Capitol seemed to give "Polyester Bride" a decent push at radio, but for some reason, it just didn't take off and many station programmers failed to see its potential and didn't take to it. As for the video for the single, it only got a very moderate amount of play, and never during peak viewing hours. MTV had made an effort to support Liz in the past, making "Supernova" a buzz clip, but this time, that same support just wasn't there. Perhaps Capitol could have pushed the video a little harder, but the execs still may have resisted. A second single was released to radio in January, the cut being "Johnny Feelgood." The only thing is that quite a few months had elapsed since "Polyester Bride" had died out, and what little buzz there had been was gone. They simply seemed to wait too long to follow-up the first single, which had been one of the problems with the promotion _Whip-Smart_ had received. You would think that they would have tried not to repeat the same mistake twice, but sadly, they didn't. From what I understand, part of the thinking behind it was that Liz and/or her management wanted to wait to release the single to coincide with a new set of tour dates, which ended up being the ones with Alanis, but the label should have pushed to have it out sooner. Another decision that seems somewhat questionable was the one to not make any further videos for the album. I forget Gerard Cosloy's exact statement, but it was to the effect that the expense of another video just couldn't be justified, seeing as how most video outlets seemed to resist playing Liz no matter what they did. I can see the logic behind this in a way, but I think they should have given it one more shot, rather than just giving up after one video for the album. If they kept pushing, maybe they would have succeeded at breaking Liz at MTV; the way to go about that certainly isn't to just give up completely. Capitol did do one thing of note in its promotion of WCSE. They did a pretty good print campaign, placing ads for the album in Spin, Billboard, Rolling Stone, CMJ New Music Monthly, and probably a few others as well (these are just the ones I can recall). Also, they managed to get a lot of promotional materials to record stores, which was good to see. THE SALES: For all of the touring, the heightened exposure on the Lilith Fair and Alanis Morissette tours, all the glowing reviews and articles, _whitechocolatespaceegg_ still hasn't gone gold ten months after its release. Yes, it did take both _Exile_ and _Whip-Smart_ years to reach that status, but given Liz's established fan base and all of her appearances, live and otherwise, in support of this album, it seems that WCSE should be selling at a much greater pace. As of early April, the SoundScan numbers for the album showed that it had sold 207,000 copies. One thing to consider, though, is that not all albums sold are reflected in this count, as not all outlets are participants in the SoundScan system. While almost all of the major chains report to SoundScan, relatively few indie stores do. These indie stores are the ones where Liz originally built her following from, as in 1993, before it really caught on, these were the places stocking _Exile_, not the chain stores. I would imagine that Liz still sells quite a few records through these outlets even now, when her albums aren't hard to find anywhere. The album no doubt is still selling, two months after those figures. While we don't see WCSE experiencing any chart activity, it's important to consider that, in an average week, you have to sell about 6,000 copies just to make the bottom reaches of Billboard's Top 200 album chart. Liz is quite likely selling a few thousand copies each week, very quietly, but it goes completely unnoticed. This is the case with a lot of albums, and it's really interesting to consider the fact that _Exile_ did sell 200,000 copies in its first year of release, while never reaching any higher than #196 on the chart. It never made a huge splash, but consistently sold nearly 4,000 copies a week quietly. My guess is that all told, WCSE has likely now at least reached the 250,000 mark in sales, perhaps more. The fact is, that's still quite a ways from going gold, and the promotion for the album has pretty much died down. The only boost it may receive is if Liz's dates with this year's Lilith tour get a few more people into the record stores. Given that for all intents and purposes, this album should have made Liz a much bigger star, this showing is rather disappointing. SO, WHAT WENT WRONG?: It's really hard to say what could have been done to guarantee a greater level of success for the album, but I do have a few thoughts about it. First of all, many of you will remember that the album had been finished and set for a June release last year, only to be pushed back to August. The reasoning given for this was that Capitol had a lot of either high profile releases scheduled for around that time, such as the Beastie Boys, and they wouldn't have much in the way of promotional resources to give to WCSE at the time. What was really stupid, to me, is that Liz's release date had been set first, but when the Beasties album was finally ready, they decided to go ahead and release it first instead. It kind of shows you who is a priority for Capitol and who isn't, doesn't it? The fact is, they never gave much in the way of promotional resources to Liz anyway, so they could have really released her album at any time and it wouldn't have mattered. As for the Beastie Boys (and no, I'm not criticizing them, because I do like them as well), they could have released their album at absolutely any time and it would have been a hit, whether Capitol was busy promoting other artists or not. They have a huge established audience and do well on both MTV and radio. They really didn't need the huge push they received from the label. They would have done well, regardless. As for Liz, had WCSE been released in June, I do believe that it would have fared much better, especially initially. The release would have coincided with the first of Liz's Lilith Fair dates, at which she played a number of songs from the album. The thing was, if the audience had liked the songs they had heard at the shows, they couldn't go out and get them any time soon, since the album hadn't been released, and the time it was, they likely would have forgotten about it. Liz may have also scored a lot of impulse buys from concert-goers at the Tower Records booths that were at all of the Lilith shows. When WCSE was finally released on August 11, Liz only had a few shows left on the tour, and it didn't really allow her the same opportunity to capitalize on her appearances. The ball was also dropped when it came to the "Polyester Bride" video, but most of the blame goes to Liz for that. Most labels release the first single and video off of an artist's album well in advance of the record's release, to generate a buzz for it. For Liz, while the single was issued to radio a month in advance of the album, the video didn't appear until more than a month after WCSE's release. Apparently this was because Liz didn't like the original finished product (she dismissed it as being too glossy and didn't like the director's style), and she went back and re-edited it, adding all the stock footage that appears. However, since she was busy touring with Lilith and doing other promotion for the album, it took a while for her to finish the new edit, and by then, it was almost a case of too little, too late. Perhaps Liz would have been better off just releasing the video as it originally was, then taking more control the next time out (although there didn't turn out to be a next time out). Who knows, maybe that "glossy" version would have been something MTV would have embraced -- you have to admit, Liz's version is, while better than some of her past videos, still a little too quirky for some tastes. Although _Whip-Smart_ failed to live up to industry expectations placed on it at its time of release, the labels (Matador and Atlantic) did stick by it long enough to release a third single and video for it. Since Capitol went to the effort of acquiring Liz and all of her back catalog during their separation from Matador, you think they least they would do is put out a third radio single from WCSE. I mean, if they really wanted her on the label that bad (and I really do think she must have been one of the factors when it came to Capitol's interest in Matador in the first place, since she was the biggest-selling artist on the label), they must think she has the potential to be commercially successful. So, why not back that up with a little support? "What Makes You Happy" seems like Liz's greatest chance at a hit to me, so why isn't Capitol acting on it and doing something about it? They're letting a good opportunity pass them by, and if any song is going to push WCSE to gold status, I can't think of a better choice. Of course, I can see why Capitol may have already given up; if, after ten months, an album had sold only as much as WCSE has, that's usually as far as the promotion goes. It also seems to me that WCSE might have got caught in the crossfire of the dissolution of the Matador/Capitol alliance -- while the details of that were being worked out, and when no one knew where Liz might have ended up, it probably didn't make much sense to put any more work or money into promoting the album, and now it's simply too late to do much. It wouldn't kill Capitol to do something though, if only to establish a good working relationship with Liz, now that she's signed solely with them. I guess we'll see what happens, but I have my doubts that Liz is best off on Capitol. Maybe they will make her a priority artist for the next record, but having watched the poor treatment a lot of my other favorite artists and bands (XTC, Aimee Mann, Jen Trynin, etc.) have received by major labels, I'm not holding by breath. Only time will tell.... Jase ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #178 ************************************