From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #154 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Friday, May 28 1999 Volume 02 : Number 154 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Tori, Liz, and Alanis ["M.L. Magdalene" ] Re: support-system-digest V2 #153 ["keelyfish" ] Liz Phair : now read the novel ["Chris Whitfield" ] sheryl, tom, and wrigley ["Paul Erickson" ] calvin... [Tiffany M Wilson ] re:enough [Ken_Davis@putnaminv.com] response [Craig King ] long live exena crevenka and kim deal [Kaufmann@IPFW.EDU (Kaufmann,Mike)] Prettiness [Jeanne F Swadosh ] crowe's feat [jan gyn ] more replies, then i'll keep it like a secret [raymond lew ] More BTS discussion and random musings ["Dana Protano" ] ebay [Craig King ] Liz Tshirt ["keelyfish" ] rocket boy single available! [Oh4sythia@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 May 1999 22:34:15 PDT From: "M.L. Magdalene" Subject: Tori, Liz, and Alanis Okay, now, i have gotten over my problem with Alanis and have even trained myself to enjoy her music at times of compltete and total desolation, but today, and i was enjoying my new computer and just running aimlessly around the net i discover that Tori Amos and Alanis are touring together?!!?!?! Can this be right. I mean it was a horrible tragedy when Liz subjected herslef to OPENING for Alanis...and on top of this Tori is going to play WITH her?????? Tell me this is not really happening. I'm just sick and tired of truely talented artists like Liz and Tori(AND ANI DIFRANCO!!!!)not getting a small fraction of the credit they deserve!!!! Does anybody else see what i'm saying? M "Tears on the sleeve of a man don't wanna be a boy today heard the eternal footman bought himself a bike to race and Greg he writes letters and burns his CDs they say you were something in those formative years HOLD ONTO NOTHING AS FAST AS YOU CAN well still pretty good year" - -Tori Amos- _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 00:52:03 -0500 From: "keelyfish" Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #153 " have to disagree with keely though when he has Calvin is uglier than Doug. I actually think Calvin is pretty cute." Hee hee : ) I do, too. I was being sarcastic : ) Cheers! keely ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 21:04:05 +1000 From: "Chris Whitfield" Subject: Liz Phair : now read the novel There's a short review/interview about Liz in the latest issue of Juice magazine.. there was one interesting quote: "I want to write a novel. I've tried writing but it's not happening just yet. My mother says,'Just stick with music, you're much better at that,' but I want to explore everything." she explains. So maybe a collection of ghost stories called "Camden Joy, a rant" ????? no waitaminute.... female singer/songwriter turned author.... must be a book of bad teenage-angst poetry. full text of that article at www.micronica.com.au/~cerebus chris NP : The Breeders, Last Splash ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:34:11 -0400 (EDT) From: Catherine Lewis Subject: Re: Liz Cover Songs > 2) "White Rabbit" -Jefferson Airplane The Murmurs covered this song on their "White Rabbit" EP -- It's pretty good (and that and their first, self-titled album are QUITE different from their newer stuff. Better, in my opinion...) Catherine ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 06:21:57 PDT From: "Paul Erickson" Subject: sheryl, tom, and wrigley <> Yeah, I'm not a big Sheryl Crow fan but was particularly impressed with her when I saw her live one time. I thought she was a great live performer and musician - very strong. As far as her and Tom deserving as much respect as Liz, I assume I have much company on this list who would question this. Not that they aren't both top notch musicians, but compared to Liz they are just evolutionary as opposed to revolutionary in terms of where they took rock music. <> Big Cubs fan - yeah, me, too! My Mom has always been a huge fan and when I was growing up she had the game on WGN almost everyday while I was home for summer vacation. Some good memories of a simpler time of life. As far as Liz singing at Wrigley, that would be great but I haven't heard anything about it except on this list. I tried checking the Cubs official website but didn't see any info on the subject. By the way, the last time the Cubs played, Sosa hit a game winning homer in the bottom of the 9th. Fuck yeah! _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 09:49:08 -0400 (EDT) From: Tiffany M Wilson Subject: calvin... Non Liz content coming up. Whoever said that Doug Martsch is better looking than Calvin Johnson--You are so wrong. Every indie grrrl I know thinks Calvin is beyond sexy. My guy friends complain that it's just his voice, but I think that he's cute for several reasons. I love that he loves to dance even though he can't (as you would know if you've seen Dub Narcotic live). I adore his lyrics, too. ("To me, the best part of sex is walking home holding hands after swimming in the lake, to me, the best part of love is when you say you'll be my pal"-from the song "fourteen" by Beat Happening.) On the whole looks thing, the great thing about punk and indie is that you don't have to perfect and super thin and young. I recently saw the eyeliners play live, and they looked awesome, but they weren't anorexic looking or overly made up. They had style, but they weren't unattainable or too perfect. So, I'll shut up now. - -Tiffinatrix "And I may be young, but I still know the things you put down can rise from below. And I can hardly believe you would lay this at my door, 'cause I have heard that song before." -Liz Phair "All you ever wanted was someone to take care of you. All you're ever losing is a little mascara..." -Paul Westerberg (The Replacements) "This is why events unnerve me, they find it all a different story. Notice whom for wheels are turning, turn again and turn towards this time... Oh, I'll break them down, no mercy shown. Heaven knows, it's got to be this time..." -Ian Curtis (Joy Division) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:23:43 -0400 From: Ken_Davis@putnaminv.com Subject: re:enough I hereby apologize to the list at large for disparaging the music of Jennifer Love Hewitt. She is an immensely talented young lady and I regret causing any emotional duress to any listmembers, with my harsh criticism. Ken ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 08:59:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: response Jill wrote: >>Craig.... or anyone else that may know, have you heard any more on the rumor that Liz might sing at a Cubs game??? Being a big Cubs fan, and living 2 miles from Wrigley Field, I would gladly call in sick to work to catch this game!!<< Haven't heard anything new. I'll have to ask my friend who heard about it if he's heard anything new. I wonder if the Cubs web site has anything? Hmmm....... Well, I'll do my best to find out anything more about the rumor. I'll post it if I do. If Liz does sing I hope it's in September cuz I'll be traveling from Milwaukee to Wrigley to catch one of the Cubs-Brewers games. *crosses fingers* Craig "AdRock" NP: Liz Phair - "live at Lupo's Providence on 5/2/99" _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 11:28:28 -0500 From: Kaufmann@IPFW.EDU (Kaufmann,Mike) Subject: long live exena crevenka and kim deal I'm glad to hear vh1 are getting off the beaten path with this one. In addition to being interested where liz ends up, I'm glad they gave some notice to those who went before like Exene and Kim Deal. As long as we're on the subject, someone mentioned the Pixies "Here Comes Your Man" as a good choice for a Liz cover. I think that could be nifty but would also like something like Gigantic (which features Kim Deal) or Debaser. Mike Slicin up eyeballs I wanna know ...Don't know about you but I am un CHIEN Andalusia--Black Francis (nee Frank Black), Pixies (RIP) Katie Anjil wrote (well quoted) from the women in rock list-- Meanwhile, lesser-known artists like Kim Deal (the Pixies, the Breeders), Exene Cervenkova (X), and Kim Gordon (Sonic Youth) did. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 13:13:33 -0400 (EDT) From: Jeanne F Swadosh Subject: Prettiness I thought I would put in my two cents to the current beauty debate. Like a lot of other people I had no idea what Liz looked like until several years after I had been listening to her, partly because I was living in another country where I didn't have access to cheap American magazines and partly because I kind of didn't want to know. When my best friend gave me Exile in Guyville back in high school I listened to it religiously and created my own idea of what Liz looked like. She was a brunette (like me), kind of short (also like me), and not particularly knock-out attractive (hmmmm...also like me). I was horrified when I saw a picture of blonde, attractive Liz. I'd been cheated but, of course, it was by myself. It was comforting to think of her as an "average" looking woman because, since her songs spoke to me like no other artist's did, I felt the similarities couldn't have ended there. I just saw one of her shows here in New York last month and she seemed healthier than previous pictures I'd seen of her in which she looked painfully thin. She was showing off her biceps. Personally, I prefer my artists to not be attractive. Its all about empathy. Jeanne ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 10:09:06 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: crowe's feat Re: Sheryl Crow opinion. I don't think Sheryl Crowe, Jewel, Petty, or Mellencamp untalented, but I find the MOR genre they inhabit to be a pit of complacent blandness with enormous gravity. And I fear Liz Phair is being sucked in. - -jan ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 11:09:07 -0700 (PDT) From: raymond lew Subject: more replies, then i'll keep it like a secret LAST post on bts: KEN stated that he fell in love with several bands before he even knew what they look like, which is perfectly fine with me. If I had already been into bts before I first saw them on Conan, of course I would cut them some slack, since I would already know that their music rocked. But that's not the case; my first exposure to bts WAS on Conan, which left a very poor first impression. As an artist, I believe that you should always perform as if someone is seeing you for the first time (loosely quoted from someone...I forgot who, though). "Doug's music is WAY TOO FUCKING smart for someone like that"--more personal insinuations regarding myself, which I feel are unnecessary. As a side note, "smart" music isn't necessarily good music (this is not a critique on bts, so please don't take it as such). You can write the most complicated riff as the backbone of your song, but if you can't write a good melody for it, the riff isn't of much use (unless it's an instrumental piece, of course). Many artists, the Rolling Stones, for example, hinge their songwriting on simplicity and repetition...and still sound awesome. To the casual listener, Liz Phair's songwriting may seem simple in that she just streams together whatever words come to mind. However, her lyrics are in fact well crafted--the "simplicity" of the language is in fact a planned process. DANA wrote "you'll notice that throughout my post i've insisted on using the word "musician" rather than "performer." why? maybe because that's what's important. lassie was also a "performer." You are correct. The distinction between musician and performer is perhaps the crux of my argument. I believe that musicians are faceless, nameless people--as such, it can be said that the music truly is all that matters. I would classify members of an orchestra, philharmonic, even studio guitarists, drummers, etc. as "musicians". Someone could replace these individuals with different people and you wouldn't know the difference. Performers, on the other hand, incorporate many people, including (in my opinion), musicians who perform live (e.g., Liz Phair, bts). These "performers" have music videos, go on talk shows, do interviews, have their faces plastered on albums, posters, stickers, buttons, and perform live. Their presence and appearance are part of the artist. These ideas presented are simply two different ways of looking at music. It does not make you more of a fan/less of a fan, or more of a person/less of a person. It makes you different from some people. If I happen to be different from other people, then that is perfectly fine with me. Do you really feel that the majority of fans only listen for the music? If Liz Phair put on a private show for everyone on this list, how many of us would be at least a little disappointed when some Liz Phair cover band shows up instead. Keep in mind that the band would be able to replicate Liz' sound perfectly, so the music would remain the same. Why is it that cover bands aren't nearly as huge as the artists they cover? BILL said "And then to top it off you tie Magic Johnson and Bill Cosby to the KKK and child abuse." Far from it. I was tying Magic Johnson and Bill Cosby to having affairs. I thought I was quite clear in making the reference, but I guess not. From what I know, both of these men do not have any affiliations with the KKK or experiences with child abuse. Sleeping with women (besides their respective wives) is how Magic (it is speculated) contracted HIV. Bill Cosby got into a blackmail lawsuit because of his extramarital activities. If you honestly believe that I was trying to link these two with the KKK or child abuse, then you've been grossly misled, and I apologize. ROB wrote "No need posting it to the list and wasting the time of about 900 other people" so I will conduct all other debates off the list. ...ray **************************************************************************** "I'm a wreck, I'm obsessed, I'm insane. Isn't that what you want me to say?" --Liz Phair the writings on the wall - http://www-scf.usc.edu/~rlew/ beginning to see the light - http://www-scf.usc.edu/~rlew/liz_phair/ **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 99 03:05:03 -0400 From: Meredith Robbins Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #153 dbickin@ibm.net wrote: >Meredith or anyone who went to the DC PHFest: How long did you guys wait. >I got to the National Gallery steps at around 1:10, and you were nowhere >to be found. Oh well. No big thing, it was my first time in DC so there >was plenty to keep me occupied. Dude! We were so totally there at 1:10! Some of us were, at least. We ended up sitting there for maybe... 45 minutes? before deciding to get the hell out of the sun. How strange. I interviewed for a job at the Build-A-Bear Workshop yesterday afternoon. It's this incredibly cool where kids get to come in and make their own teddy bears with the help of the Master Bear Builders. I want to be a Master Bear Builder so damn bad. The bear lady is supposed to call me this afternoon (like, now) to tell me whether I got the job or not. Yikes. Meredith +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ "On rocky islands, gulls woke." --Esther Forbes, "Johnny Tremain" ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:56:30 -0400 From: u1030146 Subject: Unsend Sorry to send out that strange little one word message with the o at the end of Liz Phair. Spell check mistakenly came on and when I tried to stop it, I accidentally hit Send. I kept thinking of that IBM commercial where the guys say UNSEND, UNSEND. sorry. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 16:55:22 PDT From: "Dana Protano" Subject: More BTS discussion and random musings Alright i want to particiapte- I haven't written into the list in over a week because i spent MOST of last week following BUILT TO SPILL. AND I HAVE A FEW (who am I KIDDING) WORDS TO SAY: It seems like some fights are brewing amongst listers with differing opinions and i don't want to start a fight.. but whoever made those negative comments on BTS and Doug Martsch is an absoulte IDIOT AND A VERY IGNORANT AND SHALLOW PERSON, TO BOOT. I wanted to write in last week about the blast I HAD seeing and HANGING OUT WITH BTS in new york and hoboken, but now i feel i need to educate the misinformed: I saw BTS at Maxwell's in Hoboken last wed. maxwell's is a small intimate club, that lots of cool bands play at. Doug was really cool, hanging out in the middle of the audience watching the opening band, supporting them and then getting on stage to do a song with them. I love Liz and all, but I doubt her highness would stand in the middle of a packed crowd of her own fans nowadays to watch the opening band every night,which is what doug does. Also after the show, Doug drove their tour van home, i was next to him on the road. What the hell do his looks have to do with his music? Before Liz was on capital and started wearing make-up lots of people thought she was ugly, did you only like her once she bought pricey make-up? and like someone else on the list said, i started getting into liz before i saw what she looked like, if she was hideous and her music was good, it would make no difference. Do you listen to these people's pictures on your stereo? or is it the music that actually comes through the speakers that you hear? maybe your ears are clogged with stupidity. Doug happens to be as so many have already said one of the best and most amazing guitarists and musicians today in the indie rock world. because i work for a local radio station and don't judge people on their looks i hung out with BTS and the Delusions (one of their opening bands) and they were some of the most real, down to earth and cool people i have ever met. Who gives a FUCK if doug's shirt is clean or not ? is yours always clean? what kind of preppy freak are you anyway? "One of the guitarists looked like the guy from the Cure" someone said, who cares who he looked like and just in case you were wondering , the guy you were talking about was brett netson from Caustic Resin and he is an amazing musician as well, and a very nice guy. I can't believe how shallow some people are. How many successful musicians are out there that are butt ugly? Tons. mick jagger is more than butt ugly yet got a million women and he;s not even a "musician" he sings badly. Doug is not ugly, he's not beautiful, but i didn't realize that was important in being in a band. Doug and the rest of the band (along w/Brett "the cure guy")put on an amazing show - well they played TWO shows wed. at maxwell's both sold out and amazing shows at irving plaza and just so you know HBO TAPED THE IRVING PLAZA one for "Reverb" so make sure you get out your blindfold! for all you listers who like BTS, keep an eye out for the reverb show, i don't know when it's airing but when i find out i'll let you guys know. All this itching and defending has made me forgot all the coolthings i wanted to mention about the shows- oh yeah, doug kind of tripped on my shoe and apologized to me even though it was my fault, Doug is by far one of THEE COOLEST rockers! I have a question for you guys, i think i know the answer but when you end your post with NP: BUILT TO SPILL< KEEP It like a secret- what does that mean- now playing? I think that is what it means just checking. Jewel is lame, she's on the cover of 17 magazine like every month and her lyrics are cheesy, she writes for a 13 year old audience, ther's nothing deep about them, she's right up there with Natalie Imbruglia. LIZ news..... I don't know if anyone has mentioned this but you know what ? I'll write a separate post on this cos this one is getting too long. also i am dana P and i know there's another lister who's dana p- what's up? that's very funny, when she signed dp, i thought those are my intials, so i will sign differently- DLP _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 17:12:17 PDT From: "Dana Protano" Subject: Liz in PLAYBOY!!!!!!! and cosmo! Did you know that Liz phair was in a recent issue of Playboy? well, my boyfriend really tried to scare me by telling me this and trying to convince me she posed for Playboy...well it's funny cos i read an article (an old one) where she actually broached the topic. Well, calm down... she wasn't nude (some of you will be happy by that, others sad-peverts!) There was just a pic of her(clothed) with a little thing that said something to the effect of "rocker Liz phair describes herself as an upper middle class white girl from the suburbs with a dirty mouth. We'll buy that , you buy WCSE." I will get the exact words later, by the way it's an older pic, before she became "beautiful", so all you shallow fans out there, beware! Also someone mentioned Entertainment Weekly's top albums. Cosmopolitan magazine at the end of 1998 listed their Top 10 albums of 1998, WCSE was one of them (surprsingly 'cos it's cosmo and they also mentioned lauryn hill, the beastie boys and some other things which were pretty bad) but also included in the list were garbage and PJ harvey- both the garbage and pj harvey albums were kinda mediocre and i love both the bands/artists. So I think , maybe they didn't actually listen to the albums, but instead put in artists that they felt "the women of the '90's should listen to or was music pertaingin to these women, although the beastie boys don';t really.) well, that's my two cents . DLP _______________________________________________________________ Get Free Email and Do More On The Web. Visit http://www.msn.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:12:03 -0400 From: Jason Long Subject: A request Since things seem to be heating up on the list a bit, I just thought that I would ask that people refrain from personal attacks or name-calling while responding to each other's posts. I'm not singling anyone out here, but it is a good thing for everyone to keep in mind, as such behavior really isn't appropriate for this list. I don't mind if people want to share opinions and engage in friendly debate over them -- that's perfectly cool. Attacking each other is not. I know that we are a very diverse group, with many differing opinions, and not everyone is always going to see eye-to-eye. That doesn't mean that we can't at least try to be respectful of other people's views, while stating our own. I would greatly appreciate it if everyone could keep these things in mind. Thanks, Jase ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 19:26:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Craig King Subject: ebay This proves just how sick some of the people on ebay really are. This was an "item" under bidding on ebay: The breast implants of "WWF SUNNY DAYS" - Item #108269441 Starts at $2,000.00 (reserve not yet met) First bid $2,000.00 Description These are the actual saline breast implants surgically worn by the one and only "SUNNY" of WWF fame sold by her, herself!!! they were implanted when she signed her contract with the WWF, and removed when she signed with ECW!!! they are sealed, packaged, and autographed upon removal, and yes, she was awake--they were hers for approx. 3 1/2 years!! If you've ever wanted to be intimate w/her, here is youchance! this is the real thing--for her career in the World Wrestling Federation!! (first time released) WTF is this all about?! Bidding for breast implants? That's just going way to far. I just had to post about it cuz I thought it was too wierd when I saw it. Now I KNOW ebay is the antichrist! Sorry for the non-Liz content. Craig "AdRock" _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 May 1999 22:15:53 -0500 From: "keelyfish" Subject: Liz Tshirt Hi, guys. I have an offer to make. When my mom and I went to see liz in Dekalb, we bought one of each shirt. (tank top and the red one.) I kept the tank top and my mom kept the red one, but she never wore it, so she gave it to me when I went to see her today. We paid $20 for it. For $20 and a bubble envelope with postage to send it to you, I'll give it to the first person who emails and says they want it. I thought of doing the ebay thing, but I know there's a lot of people who didn't get to go to the college concerts and didn't have a chance to buy shirts. SO! For the same amount that I paid (i only ask that you pay for postage, cause i'm poor like nothing else) you can have my shirt that hasn't ever been worn. Just like if you went. So if anybody wants it, just email me. Thanks! Keely ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 28 May 1999 00:41:24 EDT From: Oh4sythia@aol.com Subject: rocket boy single available! My friend Jason "the other Jason" Burton just asked me to pass a message on to you. He's the guy who recently started a small online rare-singles store and hooked me up with Carnivore. Well, he hasn't found another copy of that for us yet, but he did send me this: >Hi Leslie - >Just wanted to let you know I got that Liz Phair single in >- it's the "Rocket Boy" promo single from the Stealing >Beauty soundtrack. Only 1 song, but has a cool shot >from the movie on the cover. If you know anyone who >wants it... He gave me the news just as he was adding it to his site; he wanted you guys to have rights of first refusal. Don't know what he's charging but he's usually very reasonable. Here's his url: http://www.singlecollector.com/, just look under Liz Phair on the sidebar. Take care, Leslie ********************************************* NP: [in my head] a defective version of Rocket Boy's intro, such that can be produced only by a bumbling beginner guitar player (me) any hints for me? ********************************************* ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #154 ************************************