From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #152 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, May 26 1999 Volume 02 : Number 152 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: onanism and Elizabeth [Dennis Junkoo Kim ] Liz' to-do list [Dennis Junkoo Kim ] Violent Femmes [jase@bconnex.net] the liz-in-movies subject string [Andy Peters ] more liz-in-film posting [Andy Peters ] Re: support-system-digest V2 #151 [Ruth Seabrook ] FREEDY!!!! ["Jaime" ] jewel = gruel = drivel [jan gyn ] alright! a debate! [raymond lew ] I can take this in doses large enuff 2 kill ["Nicole W." ] anti ["dana polachowski" ] Class of '99! [AngelLieb@aol.com] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 02:35:46 -0400 (EDT) From: Dennis Junkoo Kim Subject: Re: onanism and Elizabeth >From: "Caitlin Lane" >Subject: I'd like to hear Liz cover... >"I Touch Myself" by the Divinyls >"Caress Me Down" by Sublime >I would love to hear Liz sing about masturbation. It seems like that's >the one taboo she hasn't nailed yet (or has she?) Isn't "Turning Japanese" about masturbation? Maybe she could cover "Blister in the Sun." Has she done a song about incest? What about bestiality? Picking your nose in public? "I want the doctor to take your picture so i can look at you from inside as well" --the vapors - --- "A'nta baka?" -Asuka d. www4.ncsu.edu/~djkim2 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 02:41:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Dennis Junkoo Kim Subject: Liz' to-do list While we're talking about what we want Lisa to do for us: here's something we can do: (this would be a good contest!) Who can come up with the best "new" song using lyrics from existing Liz songs? or maybe not. i feel really weird. i usually feel weird when i write to the support-system. - --- "Your manuscript is both good and original, but the part that is good is not original and the part that is original is not good." -Samuel Johnson "A'nta baka?" -Asuka d. www4.ncsu.edu/~djkim2 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 03:16:17 -0400 From: jase@bconnex.net Subject: Violent Femmes d. wrote: >Maybe she could cover "Blister in the Sun." In the slightly surreal department, on Sunday I heard this song playing in the supermarket I had stopped at to pick up a few things I needed, followed by another song I wouldn't expect to hear while shopping, Aimee Mann's "Stupid Thing." It just seemed really odd to me, especially when any other time I've been in there, they've had some bland middle-of-the-road, inoffensive-to-the-masses stuff playing, or a shrieking diva like Mariah Carey. For the record, Liz does seem to be a fan of the Violent Femmes. During the fall WCSE tour, she used "Kiss Off" as part of the music for the opening slide show. Jase NP: X, _Los Angeles/Wild Gift_ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 05:28:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peters Subject: the liz-in-movies subject string in addition to p.j. harvey, sheryl crow and jewel, i remember that alanis morrisette is also going to be in a movie; she's going to play God in kevin smith's new film (don't remember the title.) now i realize that whether alanis is actually considered a contemporary of liz's is debatable, but since liz did open some shows for her, i figure that's close enough. so after lilith fair, will liz's touring end for a while? andy _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 05:33:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Andy Peters Subject: more liz-in-film posting The name of the movie in which alanis will portray God is Dogma. Sheryl Crow, in addition to being in the upcoming Minus Man, was also in 54 with Neve Campbell. _________________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 14:07:15 +0100 (GMT) From: Ruth Seabrook Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #151 hi from aix en provence. i like travelling by myself--i me this reqlly cool girl named jen you loves... LIZ PHAIR!! so we've been hanging out, and she wants to join the list when we get back to home-like places. travelling is good for recruiting! don't miss my posts too much; (:ruthie:) ps--this keyboard is SERIOUSLY fucked up!!!! spo please ignore any typoąs oh! oh! i have a sig again! *****Deceive*****Inveigle*****Obfuscate***** "Wild and unwise, I wanna be mesmerizing, too... to you..." "I guess our dreams sort of got in the way, and strung us along for another day" "I'm gonna steal my heart back, and find a love's that true. Hot Rock to you" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 11:39:20 -0400 From: "Jaime" Subject: FREEDY!!!! >In protest, I am going to spend the rest of this week listening >exclusively to non-beautiful performers (sorry Liz) > Ken > - queuing up his Lyle Lovett cd Yeah, I threw in Freedy... and old fave of mine... He isnt the prettiest but he sure is sweet. > I dare you to tell the Sex >Pistols to go put on clean tshirts. How about the Rolling Stones? Motley >Crue? AAARRGGHHH!!! That was the most petty and childish and rotten post I >have ever in my whole life seen on this list. It tops even the most hateful >things said about Alanis. I'm just stunned. Sorry, list, about the rant. >keely Good point. If Nirvana were a clean band, would anyone have liked them more/less? Do we really care what a band looks like? BareNakedLadies are an odd looking band... Perhaps this is why they are so huge now... Liz is pretty, but my boyfriend found her quite unattractive until he saw her live... I can understand why... Sometimes she just isnt photogenic. Dont be sorry about the rant, keely... be glad that you are a person who can look past ugly bands and see what matters-- the music. >For some reason, I had this feeling that it was one E >and not two! Grrrreat! Sorry Jaime! I feel so stupid now. No. Dont feel stupid... If I had a *proverbial* nickel for each time my name was spelt wrong... well... I'd be doing more interesting and rich things besides replying to a SS digest. >Flower... I'm not saying it's *about*... uh... self-stimulation, but I wonder >what Liz was thinking. It has that hypnotized simple back and forth rhythm >so if you'd ever want some kind of erotic something or other to chant... Yeah, I get it. I always noticed that... its a powerful song that seems to lead you along through a liz sex-capade... its as if she is fantasizing-- and the melody and the words... are all wrapping around her... slow- yet steady... You get it now... If you havent listened to it during your own sex-capade, then you must! Oh and a BTW... I will never take back the horrible things I said about Drewel. ~Jaime* NP: Freedy Johnston _Bad Reputation_ *inviting all flamers in for a drink* - -<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>- "I only get high about twice a day, It helps to keep my blues away..." --Bran Van 3000 -<<>>- "Downer Surrealism." - --Frank Zappa, on Steely Dan - -<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>-<<>>- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 08:14:47 -0700 From: jan gyn Subject: jewel = gruel = drivel (nlc) I can't stand Jewel, but the worst thing I've ever seen was a Sheryl Crow concert. I got dragged to one a couple years ago, and even though I got in free, I felt gypped out of two hours of my life by this Tom Petty wannabe. The most sickening spectacle to date, and I've seen GG Allin... - -jan >From: "Jaime" >Subject: jewel=vomit >No joke-- >Jewel makes me sick. If I met her in real life I would beat the shit out of >her. Swiss-miss-bitch! Her music is so inspiring-- I put a CD of hers in >last week, and I'm bulimic now. I use her CD to keep my girlish figure. I >wish she was homeless again. Her music is marketed towards 12 yr old (snip) >~Jaime* ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 10:17:08 -0700 (PDT) From: raymond lew Subject: alright! a debate! Hey everyone, I'd like to reply to everyone's comments about my comments on built to spill, so please excuse the length of this post. KEN (a different ken) stated that my biggest problem with bts was their lack of beauty; however, in my post I had stated that the music was ok (with "ok" being the relative equivalent of how people call things "nice"), and that their appearance left something to be desired. Note that my evaluation of the band was NOT, "Yeah, their music rocked hard, but I don't like the way they look so I don't like them." In all truthfulness, I believe that an artist's music and their appearance are intertwined--both of them contribute to an artist's performance, which is just as important, if not moreso, than the recording. Many artists such as Pearl Jam and Dave Mathews Band have built their core fan base as a result of their live performances. Thus, to make things clearer (in retrospect, the post was very muddled), I should have stated that my biggest problem was that their performance (music and appearance) left soemthing to be desired. They just didn't have enough energy for me; if bts gets you in a frenzy, then that's wonderful, but i felt that they lack emotion and activity on stage. KEN also states "I have begun to appreciate ugly-ass people..." which forces me to make two additional comments. "HAVE BEGUN" shows that you were at one point no better off than you _accuse_ me of being, so you should have at least taken the time to see things from my _assumed_ viewpoint before commenting. Also, with the exception of the balding comment (which was out of line. why did I do it? to emphasize age--i thought the band would be in their early twenties, the new rock cliche), the points that I made regarding appearance didn't have to do with beauty/ugliness inasmuch as the fact that bts didn't seem to have a coherent "look." I'm not saying that they had to wear coordinated suits, but beat-up sneakers, jeans, and t-shirts didn't do it for me. You may perceive Kid Rock and Lyle Lovett as being ugly, but when you think about it, they seem to "fit" the music that they play. I'm not saying that rock bands have to look like this and metal bands have to look like that...I'm just saying that I had a loose mental picture of bts based on what i had read and heard from others, and when that picture is completely distorted it comes as a shock. I had really wanted to start listening to bts (which is the main reason why i watched them on conan), but when I saw them play, my disappointment left me frustrated and angry. KEN'S protest to only listen to music by "ugly" people makes you no better of a person than you perceived me to be. Consider this hypothetical scenario: "My friend hates people of race A, and only talks to people of race B; in protest, I will only talk to people of race A, and hate everyone of race B." KEELY stated that I had blamed bts for the actions of greg (the one who signed my guestbook about bts). Quite the contrary. Here's what I said: "now i wouldn't be so pissed off about this had someone not used my guestbook as their personal advertising space. actually, i'd still be pretty po'd because i had heard alot about the band and they didn't nearly meet my expectations." Please try not to twist my words; take into account everything that I have posted. Your second comment regarding versace suits should also look back on this quote as a reference point. KEELY also remarks, " you are by no means saddened at the superficiality of the music industry" even though I had clearly posted "sad to say, but the music industry is very visually-oriented." I don't know how much clearer this can be. You also state that the lead singer can still write "increadible songs" even though he is balding; I never said he couldn't--I just wasn't awestruck by the song that I heard. As far as the drumming is concerned, unless you play the drums, or know alot about them and are not simply going off of what other people say, you do not know what is "difficult" or a "stock-drum beat." I do not know a thing about drums, but I know that all drumming isn't easy--and alot of it can be done with emotion. Dave Grohl, Tommy Lee, Mitch Mitchell (?), guys from Metallica, Def Leppard. Besides, I believe that perhaps THE most accomplished rock guitarist of all-time, Jimi Hendrix, managed to play with *some* emotion, regardless of the difficulty of the tune. Drums and guitars are different instruments, but I think you get the point. I never thought Greg had anything to do with the band, so I really can't comment on your remarks that blame Greg for the band. These two issues cover the same material, but are by no means related as much as you may think. You also mention the image of the Sex Pistols, Rolling Stones, and Motley Crue--that's wonderful, their image IS to be unkempt and thrown-together. The "look" bts has just didn't work for me. No one says that it has to. I see that I must respond to at least two more posts. This one's running a bit long anyways. I'll be back. Sorry again for the length! ...ray **************************************************************************** "I'm a wreck, I'm obsessed, I'm insane. Isn't that what you want me to say?" --Liz Phair the writings on the wall - http://www-scf.usc.edu/~rlew/ beginning to see the light - http://www-scf.usc.edu/~rlew/liz_phair/ **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:07:16 -0400 (EDT) From: "Nicole W." Subject: I can take this in doses large enuff 2 kill Spaceeggy Katie... feel free to send me a clip of film with Ewan Mac on it! ;) but what's this about wedding bells ringing? Umm... I know this is just a Liz Phair mailing list, but I think you should tell us about being engaged or whatever. I mean espeically if you're going to talk about hearing wedding bells ringing. I don't have much content, as usual. Well... pertinent content. I Today i was driving around listenin to my tape of 10/6/98 with the windows open and singing at the top of my lungs. it was very fun. Now I don't collect beanie babies, but I'm a sucker for kids' meal toys, and since everyone ELSe thinks beanie babies are cool, the doubly cool happy meal toy is the teenie beanie baby, which are appearing again in Happy Meals, for all interested parties. I think I'm going to eat at McD's just to get the toy. What I REALLY want, asl well, is that cool looking yoda 8 ball toy that they are having at pizza hut, but i don't really eat at pizza hut. and they're probalby sold out or something. Hmm. Anyone want to buy me one and i'll reimburse you? they're only 99 cents with some kind of pizza purchase. EWWW MAKE IT STOP! MTV sucked, so i tried vh1, and i just don't like natalie murchant. merchant. Uggh I think susan lucci should NOT have won the damned award she won. i think she should have just never won it. What's wrong with Oprah's hair? Okay I'm settling on Sesame Street. Oh here'ssomething... when i todl liz abou t "garden of Ewoks", she was saying how Nick loved to watch Star War4s and when the Ewoks came on he'd call them teddy bears. i wonder if she's taking him to this star wars. it's kind of ... rough for a 2.5 year old, though, but i guess maybe a 2 year old would appreciate jar jar binks, but i sure don't. well later, Nicole ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:56:40 -0500 From: palik@ix.netcom.com Subject: Exile release date ? What exact date was Exile in Guyville released to the public ? Thanks, Don ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 17:05:23 -0500 From: palik@ix.netcom.com Subject: Early Liz live concert tapes ? What's the earlest Liz concert performance that anyone out there has on tape ? I know 12/01/93 at the Great American Muxic Hall, San Francisco exists, but how about other tapes from 1993 or earlier? (I'd love to hear a tape of the first 01/??/93 Lounge Ax show. I'd read in an archived article on some nice person's site that Lounge Ax show was her 6th public performace ever.) Thanks, Don ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 15:39:13 -0700 (PDT) From: raymond lew Subject: alright! a debate! (part 2) ok i'm back now... JOHN said, "i heard that they sucked on conan too, but the song they played really isn't one you'd like to see on tv" which was very helpful because I had never heard bts or seen them perform before. Keep in mind that I'm basing my judgment of bts on that one performance (I know it's wrong, but what should I do?). If that was their worst performance ever, wonderful--then my opinion of them is grossly distorted. If they didn't play one of their better songs, that's fine too--i'm sure I'll get the opportunity to hear others (by the way, KEN, KEELY, KELLY, did any of you see them on Conan? Maybe you could give more feedback on their performance). Maybe bts just doesn't perform well on national television. Maybe they had a case of the jitters. Maybe they were just having a bad day. Whatever it was, I didn't think it was that great. If I'm shown otherwise, then I'd glady change my opinion. KELLY said, "You even said yourself that the music was "okay," although you certainly shouldn't place any real judgement on their so-called lethargic single-song performance on Conan." The "ok" part I have already addressed. Point well taken on the rest of the quote. KELLY also said, "I think it's silly and unfair to insist that everyone in the music biz should be beautiful and young (with a full head of hair)." I wholeheartedly agree. I clearly stated that they didn't have to look like rock stars, but the least they could have done was put on some clean t-shirts--i.e., they could have looked a little more descent for the performance. Did you see them on Conan? It's quite unfair to critique my judgment unless you know what I am basing my opinion on. Imagine this: you have never heard Liz Phair's music before, or seen her perform. All you have to work off of is praise from other fans and magazines. You see her for the first time on Conan, and she is wearing gym shoes, sweatpants, and some sweater that she just threw on. During the song, Liz and the ENTIRE band remain fixed in their one spot on the floor. What would your opinion be? I wouldn't be so enthused. I would feel letdown. "There are plenty of people out there (myself included) who judge a band on their sound, NOT the way they look." I'm sure there are, although I would place them amongst the minority. To be able to judge a band based solely on their sound is something I envy; if you can do that, then I applaud you. I feel that the feat is comparable to judging an actor solely on his/her acting ability, or an authoritative figure (the president, for example) based solely on his ability to run the country (i'll still support clinton). All I wanted from bts was at least average as far as appearance is concerned, and in my opinion, I didn't get it. If Liz Phair looked "average" (as many of my friends say she looks), would I still put her at the top of my list? Of course. Looks are important, but they are just one small facet of the performer. bts failed in several facets, from what I saw. But, if you are truly able to appreciate a performer based solely on the music, then let me ask you this: say Liz Phair is a horrible person, morally speaking. She hates her family, has ties with the KKK, abuses her child, has affairs...would you still like her as a performer? Keep in mind, the music would remain exactly the same. ...Then again, many people still respect the likes of magic johnson and bill cosby, so I suppose it is indeed possible. Just not probable. KELLY also also said, "Speaking of which, would you dismiss Liz Phair so vehemently were she not slim, petite & gorgeous? Would you like her music if she was pudgy, greying and not-so-stylish in her manner of dress?" I guess both questions are restatements of each other so I'll try to address them in one answer. If Liz Phair was pudgy, greying, and not-so-stylish, AND I saw her perform on Conan with no energy, AND I had already placed huge expectations on her coming into the show, I would most definitely dismiss her just as easily. I would have felt grossly misled; cheated would perhaps more accurately describe it--as if someone took the real Liz Phair and replaced her with some stranger. KELLY's last comment: "your superficial snobbery makes you look like a buffoon." I don't mind when people have differing opinions or other arguments--that's fine. But when you begin to attack the person and not the opinion, then you have crossed the line. okay, that was a really long post(s?). actually, this was all just a plan to make up for the lurkers. don't worry, i'll make it up. =] ...ray **************************************************************************** "I'm a wreck, I'm obsessed, I'm insane. Isn't that what you want me to say?" --Liz Phair the writings on the wall - http://www-scf.usc.edu/~rlew/ beginning to see the light - http://www-scf.usc.edu/~rlew/liz_phair/ **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 16:30:01 -0700 From: "dana polachowski" Subject: anti there've been some really good responses to that earlier "anti-built-to-spill" post. i couldn't have vented/ranted better myself. who the fuck cares if doug martsch is balding and if the band looked "sloppy"? christ! that bullshit is the exact reason why the music "industry" sucks--and they've obviously gotten to you, to the point where you actually think people have to be pretty and slick to make "good music." what is up with that?!! as far as i can tell, built to spill is everything i want to see in music. god bless 'em. plus, are you gonna go on one stupid performance on some stupid late-night show? lots of really good bands just don't come across in that format--probably because they're standing on a big mega-lit stage all by themselves and are extremely uncomfortable. come on--you buy their CD or listen to a friend's copy or *something*. see them live. i mean, i've said that i'm not too enamored thus far of sleater-kinney, but at least i've listened to an album of theirs and i haven't written them off completely 'cause i still plan on seeing them live and i'll probably even pick up "the hot rock." so go and get a built to spill CD. live a little. and jaime: really, what is it you're trying to say?? HAAA!!! yikes!! i laughed really hard.... dana ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 May 1999 19:52:22 EDT From: AngelLieb@aol.com Subject: Class of '99! Yah! My graduation is tomorrow! Woo hoo! Even better, I got a new stereo system as a present from my parents! The damn thing totally blew me away! Anyhoo..I'm in the mood to make people tapes! Hardly got any hours next week, so if you want to me to make tapes, email me! ---------> AngelLieb@aol.com <----------- Ohki...more to add to the cover songs list, really interesting with everyone else's. "Alabama Song (Whiskey Bar)" - The Doors "Revolution" - The Beatles And there are more Beatle songs in mind, can't think of them at this very moment. I think any Beatle song would make a great cover for any artist. Oh yeah! How about: "What is Life" - George Harrison Schoooooool's out forever! KL ();) NP: The Faculty soundtrack ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #152 ************************************