From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #43 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Friday, February 12 1999 Volume 02 : Number 043 Today's Subjects: ----------------- The Monkees [Craig King ] concert etiquette? (was liz in ffx) [Patrick Chan ] Re: support-system-digest V2 #42 [Patrick Chan ] ahem... [MrE ] Sorry, no courtesy here tonight. [Michael Connolly ] woop woop, it's here! ["Chipko Arnold" ] Review of GMU/Liz & Alanis [Robert Cormack ] REM and Liz [Matt Schulz ] ATTN: Tai Palmgren [kenmlee@ix.netcom.com (Kenneth Lee)] some final thoughts.... [Asceding to the Starts ] easy on stevie ["Sarah =^..^=" ] Re: Feel my blood on the tracks -- today! [Peter Washington ] [none] [Jason Long ] boredom [Peter Washington ] yikes! ["Cynthia Nagle" ] Girls with guitars ["Chipko Arnold" ] Polyester Bride on Rage + Ben Lee [Stuart Jackson ] Lilith ["Jay Winston" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 22:37:43 -0800 (PST) From: Craig King Subject: The Monkees Peter wrote about liking songs from the Monkees. Hell, my sister and I practicly grew up on the Monkees. There was a time when we had every episode of the TV show on tape. We had every record too. (Yes, it was records back then) I remember when they had the Monkees marathon on MTV where they showed every episode of the TV show. That's how we got them all on tape. Man, that must have been about 1985 or 1986 or so. Ahhhh...the memories. I think it's really cool that Liz covered "I'm A Believer". I'm not ashamed to admit it, I listened to the Monkees. I still do too sometimes! Craig "The KingAdRock" Phair Territory http://phairterritory.freeservers.com _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:21:15 -0700 From: Patrick Chan Subject: concert etiquette? (was liz in ffx) Hey all, Lynda wrote... >wait about 15 mins then the beautiful liz walks onto the stage. we see empty >seats in the second row so we run up there (we were paranoid about that the >whole time hoping the real owners of those seats didn't show up until liz was >done. . . . . . luckily that was the case) so we are standing, mind you the >ONLY ones standing. the teeny boppers behind us along with the parental unit >ask us to please sit. whatever. . . . . i told them that i came to see liz >and i'm going to enjoy it standing. they tried telling us numerous times to >sit but of course we ignored them. what is the point of sitting down?? i had I'm sorry, I don't mean to be crtical.... but I don't think I really agree with your take on the situation. Most likely because I've been caught on the "back end" on more than a few occasions. I can understand on the more "rocking" songs, you would want to stand up and stomp the ol' feet... but for the entire set? While you may have paid good money to see Liz, so did the people behind you. While you can still see Liz if you sat down, the people behind you were subjected to watching your backside for 45 minutes (or however long). This very situation has happened to me before... and I didn't really have any alternative save standing on my seat (since they were standing on theirs)... except I was on a couch, and I was certain I'd be thrown out if I did. While I have nothing against watching a woman gyrate to music.... that wasn't what I was there for... ;-) This debate has been ongoing for centuries I'm sure - I can almost imagine 14th century audiences arguing about whether or not they should sit or stand at Shakespeare's plays... ;-) Bottom line I think is quite simple... majority rules. While this may seem to be contrary to the "counter-culture" that frequents many of these concerts, it's the most logical thing. 2 people standing can ruin a show for people up to... 6? rows back... , ie. a dozen people, potentially more depending on the angle and height of the stage. However, if almost everyone else is standing, it wouldn't make sense that every have to sit because 2 people decided they wanted to sit. I guess it also depends on the type of music... Some music is meant for standing, some is meant for sitting... I figure Liz is somewhere in between... :-/ Well, that's just my opinion... Patrick ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 00:48:01 -0700 From: Patrick Chan Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #42 Hey all, Steve wrote... >Ruthie mentioned "making gross generalizations..." and said "it is >nearly impossible to be completely PC..." It's a truism on Well, these days, PC pretty much means benign of individuality... And sense of it, and you're discriminating against somebody.... There are those who believe that a homogenous society is utopia... whereas I think a heterogeneous society where one's inviduality and uniqueness is celebrated rather than suppressed would be better... ;-) ok, that's enough of that babble... heheh >support-system (and in real life) that you can't say anything without >offending someone, somewhere. I think part of the problem lies with >people who are *looking to be offended* even when no one's saying >anything remotely offensive (although this is more a misunderstanding & >a case of confusing the quoter with the quote). I remember a certain >listmember being offended when I called Liz's songs 'ditties,' which is >a term that Liz herself had used to describe her songs. Well, aside from the nitpickers, I think the majority of arguments is in fact simple mis-communication. I've watched people argue... and I've noticed that they aren't really as far apart as each perceives. And that's just the problem. Perception. And clarity. A big part of the problem is when people do not state their argument in a clear, concise manner. So many times, I've watched people argue from the same side.... and not realize they're opinions aren't contrary at all. In email, it's even worse... People treat email as a conversational (casual) mode of communication... but often do not account for the lack of body language and intonation. So things said in jest, sarcastically, or whatever comes out entirely wrong. If you do find you tend to set people off, the solution is a bit of a pain... Write your email, proof read it carefully, leave out any sarcastic glibs, look for things that may offend... then leave it. Do not send it... yet. Go back to it a few hours later, and go through it again. Yes... this does take several hours to do... but you do wind up with a well written email (unlike this crappy one!) ;-) hehe And for the nitpicker... just let it go... Does it really matter if it's a ditty? ;-) hehe later folks Patrick (who plans to one day have actual Liz content!) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 03:48:23 -0800 From: MrE Subject: ahem... >>was about fans & critics' different expectations of Liz Phair. I didn't >>defend myself until after your post in yesterday's digest (which, >>incidentally, is what you do when someone lashes out at you on the >>list: you defend yourself ...on the list). 1. i don't ever remember denying anyone the right to defence and would go so far as to say that i have encouraged such. free speech kinda stuff. but how in the hell do you tie me into this anyway? maybe the wrong calender? 2. it IS a tab bit bogus and disrespectful to make demands of others that we cannot keep ourselves. when a very few of us are in occupation of significant space for a number of days with discussion only the very few are interested in, was it not suggested that it be taken off post? 3. and i doubt very much that liz would be very impressed with this post either, being the flippant, irreverent and witty person that we know and love... now casteing MrE - -- "That's where i take my vitamins" - -Al Pachino - Panic In Needle Park ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:20:15 -0800 (PST) From: Michael Connolly Subject: Sorry, no courtesy here tonight. > Date: Wed, 10 Feb 1999 08:32:47 EST > From: MangoHula@aol.com > we see empty seats in the second row so we run up >there [snip] > so we are standing, mind you the ONLY ones >standing. the teeny boppers behind us along with the >parental unit ask us to please sit. whatever. . . . >i told them that i came to see liz and i'm going to >enjoy it standing. they tried telling us numerous >times to sit but of course we ignored them. what is >the point of sitting down?? < When something like this happens to me I get really torqued. No big deal that you grabbed seats you didn't pay for, but to annoy the people behind you that were actually where they are supposed to be, then blow them off when you were nicely asked to get out of their line of sight, well, may kharma run over your dogma for that. You had no right whatsoever to subtract from the enjoyment of others. After all, it wasn't a private show arranged for you, it was a public performance, and now these people will forever remember that they didn't enjoy the Liz Phair portion of that concert, even after the reason is long forgotten. Grow up, or don't inflict your rude self on the public anymore. == Mikey C Va Beach An unfamous, but not that kind, of guy. "Sometimes at night. When I hear the wind. I wish I was crazy again." - - Johnny Cash (liner notes on _Unchained_) _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 05:32:39 PST From: "Chipko Arnold" Subject: woop woop, it's here! i have in my hands, well not quite or i wouldn't be able to type, the UK version of WCSE. It's out on March 1st and has all the same tracks as the US version. The only differences that i can see are that the colours are slightly different, mainly on the back cover. This is probably due to them havibg to reprint it with a UK catalogue number. If you're interested it's 853 5542. The inner plastic thingy that holds the whole shebang together is clear on this version, so when you remove the disc you get the eyeball picture in full, my US version had a white inner thing. According to the blurb on the back, the first single will be "polyester bride" or "johnny feelgood" (an edit i presume) and will be released in April to co-incide with her coming over. No mention of a March visit, but i guess it could be a flying visit to talk to the press, no news of radio yet! Oh yeah, and they've put the information sticker right across the pic of Liz on the back cover! Bastards. "and i wonder how i've come to know so much less than i knew before" ... Joseph Lee Henry. "i know the promise is so much better than the real thing" ... Grand Drive. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 09:42:42 -0400 From: Robert Cormack Subject: Review of GMU/Liz & Alanis Concert...George Mason Univeristy...February 9, 1999, Phairphax, VA I attended the LP/AM concert on Tuesday evening. I was in the bleachers with a pretty good view and I definetly seen Lynda & Co. up front. Over 95% of the audience was there to see Alanis. The few that bothered to watch Liz seemed perplexed. Liz was great! Much better than her solo tour a few months back. She started the set with "Chopsticks" and played her standard set of songs. She played for 40 minutes. The stage set was quite sparse and she wore a tight red outfit with trainers. She looked so tiny on that big stage! Liz knew she was opening for a superstar that could/should have been her since she did all the trailblazing (ironic, don't ya think?). So she played like she had to make a point, to show the Alanis fans the true spirit of post-feminist rock. She wasn't shy as before and was much more down-earthy. She played, to the consternation, I think, of the parents, all of her "dirty" songs. She was making the point that Alanis and her ilk could not write or sing a song like "Flower". Best moment: Liz introducing wcse: "This is our first song on our new album." I won't comment on Alanis's show -- she's many people's Anti-Phair on the List. ROB "You took a hard long look at my ass Then played golf for a while" >>> Alanis Morissette ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 08:48:16 -0800 (PST) From: Matt Schulz Subject: REM and Liz Suzanne: The complete REM may never have recorded with Liz -- at least as far as I know -- but Fantasize, off of whitechocolatespaceegg, features Mike Mills, Bill Berry and Peter Buck backing Liz up. That's what I was referring to. Anyway, I just think it would be a really cool idea to see them tour together. Matt Schulz The Glory of Liz Phair (updated FINALLY!) http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Frontrow/5064/ _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 12:06:59 -0600 (CST) From: kenmlee@ix.netcom.com (Kenneth Lee) Subject: ATTN: Tai Palmgren Sorry to post this to the digest, but I need to contact this person. If you are Tai Palmgren of Chicago, please email me at kenmlee@ix.netcom.com Thanks. - -Ken kenmlee@ix.netcom.com MeSmErIzInG - AnOtHeR LiZ PhAiR WeBsItE http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2471/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:07:30 +0000 From: Asceding to the Starts Subject: some final thoughts.... although there hasn't really been a response to my last post, since i am leaving for ireland tomorrow for a week, i thought i would make some final notes. 1) when i use the word "snob", i dont' actually mean it in that i look down on, or consider to be lessers, ideas/concepts etc that dont' fall into the category i am being "snobbish" about, or that i look down on people who hold those ideas/concepts etc. i say i am a snob about a lot of things-- for instance, i say i am a food snob-- i can honestly say that i have never eaten a frozen/microwave tv dinner, and i have no intentions of ever doing so, because i think they are gross, and i would rather cook some fresh vegetable stir fry with veggies that i bought at the fruit and vegetable market and tofu from chinatown. it doesn't mean that i turn my nose up at people who do eat tv dinners (okay, so this is a really random analogy, but it was the first thing that popped into my head) if you like it, that's great for you-- most of my friends here eat tv dinners, and i still hang out with them, and even eat with them! i dont' act condescneding towards them, and we all have fun. i just dont' ask to try what they are eating. have i gotten my point across this time? i hope so 2) when i talk about the "indie rock scene," i mean less all the people who know everything about music-- cause i certainly dont, and dont' pretend to-- and more the people who, when looking for something to do, open up the time out, look thru the club listings, and decide to check out a band, cause it looks interesting. obviously, we all learn about music from our friends, and that's good thing. but my point about how liz would be better off sticking to clubs (gross generalization to follow, WARNING!! WARNING!!) was that people who decided to go check out a club show of hers cause it looks interesting are more likely to remember her name than someone who talked thru her set opening for someone like alan-ass. and that i will stand behind. and if that's snobbery in a bad way, well fine then, i guess i'm a snob. i think my use of the term "get her music" was misinterpretted as an alusion to some deep philosophic meaning behind liz's lyrics, etc, that was COMPLETELY UNINTENTIONAL!!! i do not claim to understand what she is talking about all the time, or even some of the time (well, maybe some of the time) nor do i think that only those in the "indie rock scene" hold to key to opening some magical door to understanding. if that's what it sounded like, i'm sorry. its not what i meant. i guess i just wasnt' expecting people to take me so seriously. i certainly dont ;-) in any event, i hope right now everyone is listening to a cd/tape that they like cause they think it is good, whether you heard about the artist on the radio, on mtv, from your best friend, from CMJ, or whatever. its all about the music man if you dont' hear from me in a week, assume i decided that life would be better spent on the street in kilkenny, ireland, with 78 bars on it or maybe i got stuck in the loop of the literary pub crawl through dublin... tootles all! (:ruthie:) NP-- liz phair, live from the avalon, 10-6-98 (or 6-10-98, i suppose.. that's me and jason screaming for jealousy, and my friend tom screaming ::something:: to which liz replies "what's it to me? what's it to you!" and what the hell happened to my sig!? ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 11:55:05 PST From: "Sarah =^..^=" Subject: easy on stevie hello then . . . i'm wondering where all this animosity came from as of late. i assure everyone that the steve fellow, to me, seems very sensible and nice (this which i also know because he offered to send me brownies for making him a tape of one liz song i got off the radio long ago). so everyone retract your claws, turn on some liz, and as lenny is fond of saying, "let love rule". unless that lovin' feeling has anything to do w/ alanis. just kidding. i still think her music is awful, but she got points from me during her appearance on 120 min. when she gave liz props and gave us all the opportunity to see the "polyester bride" video again (even though i don't like that one that much). okay. kit ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 12:57:19 -0500 From: Peter Washington Subject: Re: Feel my blood on the tracks -- today! Steve wrote: > From: kiskos@webtv.net (Edward Kisko) > Subject: Feel my blood on the tracks -- today! > > Peter wrote: > "...at the risk of incurring the ridicule of some of the more musically > pretentious out there..." > > [snip] > > Peter, I love songs like "I'm a Believer." I like a lot that I never > mention -- not because I'm pretentious, but because there's no point in > mentioning it here. If you want to hear about the 1997 Fleetwood Mac > reunion concert I saw or how I know all the words to Britney Spears' hit > single, I can tell you all about it. (How self-depricating of me.) First of all, good subject. Secondly, I wasn't referencing you or anyone else specifically. I didn't even remember who the target of Cynthia's post was, or if there was a target, or anything. Actually, the point of the disclaimer was just a little self-deprecating humor as well. Nothing else meant by it. Which brings me to a little thought that has long occurred to me, since way back when I used to offend people on rec.arts.tv.mst3k, and that's the fact that it's seemingly way too easy to offend people in an electronic type forum. I guess the reason is that when you're a little snide, crass, or sarcastic in real life, you get to make various gestures and intonations which tell your listeners "I don't really mean this, I'm just poking fun at you, me, and the rest of the world." Somehow when it's just the words, people seem to assume the worst. Maybe subtlety is just impossible to get across over the internet, I don't know. Maybe I should start going really over-the-top so that people know I'm joking. But that's not my style. So when you read my posts in the future (climbing up on soap box), remember these three simple words: grain of salt. Thank you. That is all. Peter Today's Word of the Day, direct from Webster's Third New International Flagpole Support and Dictionary: mazard: (n) HEAD, FACE . NP: 10,000 Maniacs, Our Time in Eden ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 17:25:51 -0600 From: "David Kelley" Subject: Re: Lilith question > Date: Tue, 9 Feb 1999 23:47:06 -0800 > From: Anthony Friscia > Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #41 > > I'm new to this list, and have yet to post anything, but figured I'd start now. > Somebody recently asked what the definition of Lilith is. If I remember > correctly in Hebrew mythology Lilith was the original woman made for Adam, > but for some reason didn't work out and was sent to the land of Nod (where > Adam and Eve go after getting kicked out of the Garden). I may be totally > off on this, and I obviously don't have the entire story, but I seem to > recall hearing that somewhere. > > tony Newbie here too. Yes, Lilith is from Hebrew folklore. I've heard different versions of it but I think she left the Garden because she didn't want to be subserviant to Adam. I also heard that she had some curse put on to her and she became a monster that mothers would warn their children about if they were bad; sort of like an ancient boogie-man (I saw this on some documentary). A few of my friends play the Vampire role playing game from White Wolf and they name Lilith as being the first female vampire who taught Cain how to be evil (or something like that). That's about all I know on the subject David Kelley ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:45:21 -0500 From: Jason Long Subject: [none] Hey guys, I've just received word that "Baby Got Going" will be featured in next Wednesday's episode of "Charmed," which airs on the WB network. The WCSE album cover will be shown at the end of the show as well. Just thought you all might like to know. Cheers, Jase ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 16:53:47 -0500 From: Peter Washington Subject: boredom OK, I must be really bored or procrastinating like hell, because I just went through my tapes and CDs and actually made a list of every song I know of that Liz has recorded. Just as a matter of curiosity, the final count was 98 but that doesn't include any new stuff from Ken's tapes, so we will probably be right around 100 songs from Liz once those are disseminated. There are only a few "asterisks" on the list: one song is Ben Lee featuring Liz, two are Ashtray Boy featuring Liz, one ("Red Ruby Lips" from Girlysound) isn't Liz at all (in fact I have no idea why I put it on the list), one ("Combo Platter") is just a mix of a few other songs, not really a separate song from anything else on the list, and one ("Alison" from her concert on 11/30/98) has never actually been located on tape by anyone I know of. (If you have information about this show existing somewhere on some recording medium, even if it's frickin' wax cylinders, email me now!) You could also make a case for separating the WCSE and Girlysound versions of "Shitloads of Money" because the structure of the song and the lyrics are changed a great deal, but I didn't do that. So there you have it. Liz is right around the century mark. Peter What, you want another word? Get outta here, you already got your word for the day! NP: A throbbing vein in my left temple. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 11 Feb 1999 18:48:42 -0500 From: "Cynthia Nagle" Subject: yikes! Dear Lovely Digesters, and the Particularly Lovely Steve, Good God Almighty, I'M SORRY! I retract everything. The intended victim of my lashing out was "old-schoolism" and indie snobbery in general, not one person in particular. And I was speaking from the point of view of not just myself, but others like me that I think are out there. Emily Litella ...I mean, Hurricane Cindy "I won't decorate my rant..." NP: "Lay It Down," Magnapop, permanent rental courtesy of the DeLisle Library P.S. Steve, are you going to boycott Liz Phest now? Don't pass up the opportunity to get into fisticuffs with me... P.P.S. But I still think you meant me when you said "openly frowned upon." ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 10:25:44 PST From: "Chipko Arnold" Subject: Girls with guitars Evening. To all those who weren't at the Water Rats in London last night (that'll be all but two of you then), you missed a blinder of a show by Mary Lorson, the singer from Madder Rose. It was just her and a guitar, apart from a few songs where she played the keyboards, and it was amazing. totally mezmerising, sometimes you dared not breathe in case you upset the fragility of the songs. Incredible. Also, what a guitar player, those who rave about LP's skill with an axe check out Mary. Another highlight was the "surprise" support act. None other than the Webb Brothers. Just the two of 'em, playing a lo-fi version of their songs, including some newies. They finished the set with a cover of Wilco's "passenger side". regular readers will know i'm a tad partial to Jeff Tweedy's band, so i was dead chuffed. Tomorrow the full force of Madder Rose hits London and it should be good. Friday it's Heather Nova, so the babe fest continues!! Talking of babes (this is tongue in cheek by the way) and the x-files. Gillian Anderson in the flesh, STUNNING!!! Smaller than you'd think, but oodles better looking, another occasion where you have trouble breathing! Still only the second most beautiful woman from Grand Rapids though! I'm off to sleep tonight, some of us don't have the luxury of a lie in! (you know who i mean). Check out Madder Rose if you don't know them, if you're a Belly fan and you don't know them then you're in for a treat and you'll kick yourself. "and i wonder how i've come to know so much less than i knew before" ... Joseph Lee Henry. "i know the promise is so much better than the real thing" ... Grand Drive. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:04:49 +0800 From: Stuart Jackson Subject: Polyester Bride on Rage + Ben Lee In digest #39, Emma asked... >Brian and Stuart both mentioned the fact that the "Polyester Bride" clip >was finally shown on Australian Tv on friday night. Stupid me, I missed >it. I was wondering whether either a) somebody in NSW taped it or b) >anyone knows whether Rage shows new release videos two weeks in a row. Yes, new videos are usually shown the next week as well. ALSO, Ben Lee will be guest programming Rage on Saturday night. If we are lucky he *might* play a Liz video or two.... http://www.abc.net.au/triplej/rage.htm regards, Stuart. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 00:35:44 -0500 From: "Jay Winston" Subject: Lilith Regarding Anthony Friscia's comments on Lilith: yeah, that's the basics. Here are a few more juicy details: Adam and Lilith were created together, at the same time, and therefore, Lilith wasn't at all submissive, and took off when Adam insisted on always being on top during sex. She then became a witch and/or goddess in various folk traditions (either good or evil depending on the particular matriarchal or patriarchal bent of a given tradition). Adam then went to God to complain that he'd been left in the lurch, and God created a far more submissive wife for him, Eve, out of his rib and we all know what happened then. That's the trouble with the Bible - they left out too many of the juicy parts... ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #43 ***********************************