From: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org (support-system-digest) To: support-system-digest@smoe.org Subject: support-system-digest V2 #33 Reply-To: support-system@smoe.org Sender: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-support-system-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk support-system-digest Wednesday, February 3 1999 Volume 02 : Number 033 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Recording of Mayan show?? [Alice Springs ] the long-awaited WCSE tapes...? [kenmlee@ix.netcom.com (Kenneth Lee)] whatever [MrE ] Re: FemART17's comments on Alanis. [ShellBell ] Turning Japanese [ShiNyViXeN@aol.com] Re: support-system-digest V2 #32 [Peter Washington ] gee there is a lot to reply too.... [Ascending to the Stars ] tape tree [D4KELLEY@aol.com] Upcoming tape tree [Jason Long ] Re: support-system-digest V2 #26 [jganz@POMONA.EDU] Polyester Bride [Chris_D_Whitfield@nag.national.com.au] Atlanta review posted on my page [AngelLieb@aol.com] A Question for guitar players [AngelLieb@aol.com] my thoughts on feminism [Suzanne Walsh ] dan's Liz v. Alanis message [Oh4sythia@aol.com] wcse review in select [baggytrousers@mindspring.com] Well said, Dan ["Nicole W." ] Minty Fresh Singles ["Jacquicee@msn.com" ] For those who are interested... [Jason Long ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:28:48 -0800 From: Alice Springs Subject: Recording of Mayan show?? Hello... I was wondering if anyone has a copy of the Liz concert at the Mayan Theatre in Los Angeles back in September? I was at this show, and would *really* enjoy a recording of it. Please email me privately if you could send me a tape. Thanks so much! By the way, are there any Portishead fans here? I just received the motherload of rare tracks and video stuff. Ah... :-) Take care, M e l o d y "I wish you all the joy that you can wish." +++++William Shakespeare+++++ "Music is the perfect type of art. Music can never reveal its ultimate secret." +++++++Oscar Wilde+++++++ ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:42:56 -0600 (CST) From: kenmlee@ix.netcom.com (Kenneth Lee) Subject: the long-awaited WCSE tapes...? Okay, okay... People are getting a little restless I see... Here's the deal: I am currently burning CD copies for everyone who contributed to the tape fund. I will start distributing the CDs around February 16th (I hope). It's been hectic, but I'm getting there. If you still want to contribute to the tape fund, send $2 (or more if you can) to: Ken Lee P.O. Box 1972 Union City, CA 94587-6972 If you're wondering what these tapes are, it can be broken down into five different categories: 1) 1996 Studio Recordings - this is basically the studio recordings from the fabled "1996 Shelved Demos / Studio Recordings" tape that circulated via this mailing list. [15 tunes] 2) 1997 Studio Recordings - these are rough mixes, recordings in various stages, completely different versions of familiar recordings, or unreleased tunes. [8 tunes] 3) 1998 Rough Mixes - this is a tape of a rough mix of WCSE with Brad Wood's work with slight (and sometimes drastic) differences [2 tunes] 4) 1997 Original Running Order - this is the album that Liz presented to Matador as finished product, but was ultimately turned down by then Capitol Records president Gary Gersh; alternate mixes of familiar tunes plus some surprises [17 tunes] 5) Bonus Tracks - basically these are the hard to find b-sides from WCSE that are commercially available [3 tunes] I'll post a more descriptive song listing in the near future. I was hoping to distribute them AFTER Jase's Chicago tape tree thingie, but it looks like some folks can't wait that long... ;) And feel free to email me any questions or concerns you have regarding what I have mentioned above. It looks like the old guard of Liz Phair fans are coming out of the woodwork (me, Aaron Walker, Ross Jeffcoat). What timing... Just like old times? :) - -Ken kenmlee@ix.netcom.com MeSmErIzInG - AnOtHeR LiZ PhAiR WeBsItE http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Club/2471/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 01 Feb 1999 23:44:49 -0800 From: MrE Subject: whatever many thanks to jorge for the great great article-would have thanked you privately, but public accolades seemed much more appropriate. and besides, a recent windows revolt has left me sans addresses... leaving gattaca MrE - -- "Mulder - toads just fell from the sky!" ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 00:54:30 -0800 (PST) From: ShellBell Subject: Re: FemART17's comments on Alanis. OK, I need to come out of lurking for this one: > FemART17@aol.com wrote: (RE: ALanis and Liz Phair) > > >She is, in my humble opinion, a crusader in the feminist movement in > >music. In case any of you haven't noticed--LIZ PHAIR IS A PART OF THAT > >MOVEMENT TOO! I 100% agree with this!!! Liz, IMHO, is the greatest, strongest feminist out there. She might not classify herself as "feminist" but I think this is beside the point. She is making a living in a field that for years has been male dominated, she's giving a female voice where there hasn't always been one and to topics that haven't been, and I would almost argue still aren't, despite Liz's efforts, accessible to women. Have any of you ever listened to Flower? Heard of the whole virgin/whore dichotomy? She's rockin' the boat in a major way with this one but don't get me started on this because I have really strong feelings and I've written entire papers on this subject. On Mon, 1 Feb 1999, Dan wrote: > > Hmmm...i don't know if I lump them together..I mean, I can understand the > link, but I do not classify Liz as a "Feminist" female artist. She's a rock > and roller. She writes about EVERYTHING from Elvis to Sex to drugs to > breaking up to being in love. I have never really heard Liz say she is doing > this to change the state that women are in today. From what I gather, > especially in regards to her being in Lilith this summer, she wanted to hang > out with some girls and have a blast, for a change. See above for my response to this plus I'll add that I think our hesitation to classify her as a "feminist" is understandable when only when we take into consideration the class/race issues historically linked to the term feminism, but call her womanist at least! What is our fear of linking ourselves and our idols to pro-female movements? This is a patriarchal society! Women are still oppressed and still don't have the freedom of the male gender. It scares me the way we are so afraid of womanist movements these days. There is still a wage gap between the genders my friends! > > I don't think Liz has ever had a "HEY LOOK AT ME I'm a > ROCKER GRRRRRRRRRL" attitude. ...she doesn't have to use big words, she's > just being frank. > OK, so let me get this straight. By aligning oneself with the "'Rocker Grrrrrrrrl' attitude" one is saying "hey look at me?" Rocker Grrrrrls just want attention and to be looked at? Maybe so but only because they've been ignored for so long. > I think the biggest problem of today is people labelling people like Liz > and PJ and Sinead and Natalie Merchant ect.. ect.. as "WOMEN OF ROCK". > I have a question? WHy aren't there "MEN OF ROCK" CD compilations?? Because it would have to be complied onto only 5 billion CDs and we still wouldn't have enough room. Have you ever picked up a Guitar World magazine? Have you seen the bikini clad women propping themselves up with a guitar. Not playing it, using it as a tool in their sexual stance. Yeah, hole was one the cover a while ago but that's a rarity. Girls do not have the rock 'n' roll idol choices that men do. It's only recently that this has changed and yes, we need to fucking celebrate this like theres no tomorrow! I'm thrilled to death that my children are going to have the opportunity to see women in rock unlike my deprived childhood where there was only Vixen and Joan Jett in a sea of motley crues and skid rows and slaughters and AC/DCs and Metallicas, only one Go-Gos in a slew of male punk bands. And as far as labeling goes that's where the power is, in movements. Can you change anything without banding together and making yourself seen? I don't think so. I do agree that it shouldn't have to be "women in rock" but I just don't think we live in a society where there is really any other option. > ...I don't see Liz as a feminist, breaking > barriors for women. She's just speaking her mind. Every woman has a voice. > No one says they can't speak up. Liz is just picking up her guitar and > telling us all a really good story. ALL of us. NOt women. NOt lesbians, not > phags like me. Just everyone who can appreciate a good lyricist and some > nifty guitar work. Hey - if she helps things out along the way for ANYONE > mentioned above - more power to her. But i think for the most part, Liz is > just a lone rock star with a shitload of songs in her back pocket. > I agree, Liz is just telling stories, just playing her guitar, speaking frankly, and writing amazing songs, and yes, she's helping out along the way, but that can't be side note--"Oh by the way she breaking new ground in the female sector." This is important and should be brought to the forefront as one of Liz Phair's major accomplishments. And yes we can all appreciate it, male or female, but therein lies it's brilliance, as art and as womanist art. Sorry to rant, it's one of my issues. Shelley ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 07:17:45 EST From: ShiNyViXeN@aol.com Subject: Turning Japanese I heard 'Turning Japanese' the radio twice last week on the same station...but it wasn't Liz. Did she do a cover of this song? Does anyone know who wrote/sang it originally? - --A ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 04:27:46 -0500 From: Peter Washington Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #32 Mikey C. wrote: >[a bunch of argumentative stuff about feminism etc.] >And now I'll pass the soapbox to someone else... Thanks. I got two things to say: 1. We covered this Alanis thing a while ago. 2. Music ain't about sociopolitical movements, it's about music. I don't listen to Liz or 10,000 Maniacs or Joni Mitchell or Shawn Colvin or Dar Williams to support feminism; I don't listen to James Brown or John Lee Hooker or Public Enemy or Muddy Waters or Miles Davis or John Coltrane because I feel I need more "black" CDs in my collection. I listen to each of them because they make music I like, end of story. I'm not saying don't support movements, but if a feminist existed who actually didn't like the music of any female artists, would that make them a bad feminist? Jenny Sayler wrote: >[joke about making demands on Liz] >**note: no offense to jase, liz, or anyone, this is just a little >joke! These are sad, sad times we live in. The age of the gratuitous disclaimer. Peter Today's Word of the Day, direct from Webster's Third New International Land Mass and Dictionary: dzo: (n) a hybrid between the yak and the domestic cow. NP: A news report about current fashion in Japan on BBC radio heard via NPR (it's 4:26 am, for Christ's sake!) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:51:06 +0000 From: Ascending to the Stars Subject: gee there is a lot to reply too.... and of course i don't really remember what to say... but i will try anyways... firstly, i apologize for my joking comment about threatening katie if she posted any more spoilers for x-files episodes that i wont' get to see til i return to the states in june. i thought it was pretty obviously a joke, but apparantly it wasn't taken that way. on the other hand, it is common courtesy not to post specific details like that in any public forum such as this, but i digress. any one who wants to go talk about specific episodes of the x-files in detail go join katie's (or any of the other hundreds of) x-files mailing lists out there. next, i completely agree with those who have suggested we take liz's comments about alan-ass's [(c)--nicole, 1998] music with a grain of salt. as was mentioned, she can't exactly go out and trash the person who she is opening for.. or even criticize, really.. she has to appear "grateful for the opportunity", or whatever. that said, i will reiterate my opinion that i dont' think it is a really smart move on her part, and i dont' think the results will be as fruitful as either she or capital records think/hope/want them to be. third (gee, this feels like an essay outline ), i would be so excited about a new album/ep anything! as a type of consolation, i suppose, i get to relive the release of wcse here on march first :) only 26 more days... oh, HAPPY GROUNDHOG DAY!!! anyone know if the groundhog saw its shadow? this is really busy week for me.. i'm going to a concert every night dont' i have work, you ask? yeah, but who needs to do it? yesterday my friend robin came to cambridge with me, and we meandered around town all afternoon, litterally ran into a friend of mine (these random meeting only happen to me here in england, never at home...) and we went to this pub for dinner where (interesting historical fact!!) the US and british pilots from WWII used to hang out, and they all wrote their names on the ceiling in candle smoke. cool huh? oh, and we saw heather nova. first row, center stage, i was about 3 feet from her... it was absolutely amazing! lemme say that againP: the concert was absolutely amazing. concerts here a little different... they are much tighter sets-- less talking, more music, which is both good and bad, i guess. oh, and people dont' yell out requests (but that was okay cause she played everything i wanted her to, including closing the main set (ie before the encore) with an absolutely mind-shattering rendition of "sugar"). now, there is some tie-in to liz here. i think liz would be much more likely to garner new fans if she was to continue with her club tour. the general type of people that would be most attracted to liz's music (please dont' flame me for stereotyping, or whatever...i'm using generalizations as a tool to make my point) and would be most likely to appreciate all the uniqueness, for lack of a better term, and genius, of her music (al la the recent discussion of the guitar work) and lyrics (no qualifications needed) are those that more into the music club scene. face it.. your typical "indie rock boy/girl", who, at least in london, will read "time out", look thru the music listings for the week, read their normally very good recommendations, and decide to check out a show, are much more likly to "get" liz's music than your typical alan-ass (c) fan. (i hope that made some semblence of sense) this is where heather nova comes in-- she is constantly touring, playing nice-sized clubs, not trading that in for some opening spot on some "superstar's" tour, although i'm sure she could if she wanted to. granted heather i think has better publicity (especially in terms of commercial singles... i think capital made huge mistakes not putting out commercial singles for polyester bride, and especially for johnny feelgood), but i think its the same idea. ticket prices in clubs are lower, and people who have the potential to become serious fans are more likely to go check out someone they may have vaguely heard of, and who has gotten tremendous reviews, at a club where they are the main act, whereas people who have payed $30 or whatever to see alan-ass will be more likely to just politely clap without paying attention in anticipation of alan-ass coming on. pardon any obvious indie-snobberies that appear to have crept in to the above dissertation. i am a snob, and i admit it, and all in all, i dont' think its that bad a thing. that's my two pence (which, actually, is a single coin here) (:ruthie:) ps-- my other concerts this week: tonite, mary lawson (madder rose's singer) solo set, tomorrow-- sarah chang and the london symphony orchestra, thursday, madder rose (in its entirety), and friday, heather nova again at university of london union (ULU) NP--heather nova-- "blow" ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:14:24 EST From: FemART17@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #32 Movement? What movement? [Michael Connolly ] "I, and maybe others here, would like to know which female artists you've supported by buying one of they're CDs lately? Or seen locally at a club or other small venue as they perform live. That is how you support your "movement", by picking a few artists special to you and doing what you can to make their choice to perform the right one - even if it's just going to see them, and talking to them afterwards about how they've affected you. Try it sometime - it's much more rewarding (and productive) than being one in 3 million to buy something." The last comments I made were based on the notion that you can respect an artist without loving her music. True, it may seem there is no "movement" within the music industry, but that is not what matters. What matters is that young girls are out there listening to music that they can identify with and learn from. It sounds a bit corny, but I know this for a fact because in high school I was liberated by music. Yes, I do support a independent figure--Ani Difranco----she has nothing to conform to--she runs her own company for God's sake!!! She is my favorite artist-by buying her records I support her movement. She is a very politically active person. I participate in a movement of my own--through political activism. I think that the music I listen to reflects my ideals in a small way. I don't fell that I should have to defend Alanis because I don't listen to her music. I am just saying that I respect her because she doesn't care. I understand that men will find this subject a bit more confusing, but women actually do get something from the music they listen too, feminism wise (it actually depends on who you listen too)! I don't give a damn if the Spice Girls were made for the public--because If it makes some girl out there feel better about herself--THAT IS GREAT!!!!! I personally think that it is so easy for a man to say there is no movement--then they can sleep at night --well it is happening right under your noes. You just have to have the ovaries to see it!! :) It seems you would have noticed by now----it has been happening for years. NONE OF THIS WAS INTENDED TO BE MEAN_but if you wanna throw a little drama my way ==it could be swell----------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:18:16 EST From: FemART17@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #32 From: "keelyfish" "She goes on to say that she just thinks women should be treated as well or better than men cause they've been dicked around for so long. I honestly don't think she considers herself part of any movement, though." Feminism is a scary word when you are in the eye of the public. But she defined it in what she said. . . . UH OH LIZ!! The cats out of the bag!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 09:23:38 EST From: FemART17@aol.com Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #32 "link, but I do not classify Liz as a "Feminist" female artist. She's a rock and roller. She writes about EVERYTHING from Elvis to Sex to drugs to breaking up to being in love." What do you thinik feminists can only sing about being raped and armpit hair?? Most woman are feminists-- really!!! If a woman is willing to stand up for her sex----she is a feminist!! Maybe she is not a radical feminist but she is a feminist------and you can still be a "rock and roller"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 13:34:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Nicole W." Subject: Angry young woman UGH! I know this shouldn't be brought into the digest, after what I said about hostility being brought in here, but on account I have been wrongfully insulted in the digest, it is necessary to bring this up here so that I can defend my honor. "Who ever thought that nicole would be the one to lecture us on appropriate topics for this list? Is that what they mean by irony?" Okay Mr. Joyner... Taken out of context, yeah... it seems like I'm "lecturing" you on the appropriate topics for this list, but in context, I was just saying don't backhandedly put people down on the list. I'm not saying don't talk about the friggin rhesus monkeys! I happened to see a snippet of film in class today about rhesus monkeys, and they are quite cool. Taken out of context, me telling this whole list that you once sent me an e-mail that consisted of two words, "Fuck" and "off," makes you sound like a big jerk off loser. So watch where you put your content. Anyway, obviously now a whole chain of hostility has been started and I'm not about to sit back and someone condescend me. So there's my defense. UGH. Okay that's my spouting. If I write about anything else, it will have to be in a different post because this one exists solely for venting about people pissing me off. bye, Nicole "as they egg me on and keep me mad" W. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:40:16 EST From: D4KELLEY@aol.com Subject: tape tree how do i sign up for the liz tape tree -----any info would be greatly appreciated thanks dennis ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 17:12:30 -0500 From: Jason Long Subject: Upcoming tape tree Hey everyone, Since my post on Friday, I have had several people email me to either volunteer to be a branch on the tape tree or to ask how to go about signing up. Please do not email me about either of these matters just yet; as I said in my message, I will be posting the sign-up form for the tree soon. Please wait until that time to inquire about signing up for the tree -- I just don't have the time to sort through and reply to messages regarding the tree before the sign-ups are even officially announced. Don't worry, guys, this will be taking place really soon -- the wait will only be a matter of days. Thanks, Jase ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 14:59:32 -0800 (PST) From: jganz@POMONA.EDU Subject: Re: support-system-digest V2 #26 hello all. it has been a really long time since i have posted anything here. actually, it's kind of been a really long time since i've even read anything from the list, as i've had a bunch of crazy crazy shit going on in my life. i guess i just didn't have enough time to justify spending large portions of it on a computer and thusly..... but that's all in the past now. i must say that a lot has happened in the past couple of months... ken: i will try and send you some cash for the tapes soon (if you are still interested in donations); i can't wait to hear them. jase: the list still looks great. you are doing a wonderful job. (of course, i've only caught myself up through digest 26, and who knows what could happen over the course of the next few. just kidding) everyone: this lizphest sounds great. i don't think i will probably be able to make it to chicago, but i'll make sure to put all of my liz discs in heavy rotation for that weekend. to spaceegg katie and anyone else that might still care: i am the person who was so dubiously in charge of that card for liz. actually, i guess i still might be. i can send it off today or tomorrow to the people whose addresses i've got, and with any luck, we might be able to get it to her by the end of her next round of tour dates (wishful thinking there i realize, but hey, it's worth a shot). for those of you that don't know (or weren't around the eons ago when this project got started), a couple of us down here in southern california got a congratulatory/thank you (or maybe thank u would be more appropriate now) card for liz. the plan was to send it around the country and elsewhere...i think i have addresses for someone in australia and maybe germany too. then we would have someone that knows how to get in touch with her, either directly or indirectly, give it to her. just to kind of let her know that there are lots of actual people out there that really like her and are happy she continues to make music. if you want to get in on the next round of mailings, send your MAILING ADDRESS to me at jganz@pomona.edu i will let everyone know how this goes. hopefully i won't disappear from the face of the web again. jacob. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 3 Feb 1999 10:47:07 +1000 From: Chris_D_Whitfield@nag.national.com.au Subject: Polyester Bride Polyester Bride has been released as a single in Australia. I heard the radio edit version this morning. The radio single is the same as the cd single in the States - featuring only the radio edit and the album version of PB. Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 18:55:48 EST From: AngelLieb@aol.com Subject: Atlanta review posted on my page Valerie posted: "Q: OK, it's time for the silly questions. "Ally McBeal" or "Buffy the Vampire Slayer"? A: God, "Buffy the Vampire Slayer" in a second! Ally drives me so crazy I can't watch it. I really hate those really self-conscious characters and stars on TV. I can't stand them. I want them to die. It's not about a feminist statement. It's really about taste and entertainment. Buffy's way cooler...Are you going to ask me a silly question?" Whoa! Go Liz! *standing ovation* Ohki....I got a review of the Atlanta 2/01 concert from a non-Liz fan and would like for everyone to check it out. It's posted on my page. I thought it was a nice review from someone who's never heard of Liz. Please don't send any hate mails to this person cuz I also have his email address attached and I did tell him the names of the songs and which albums they came from. Sooooo...be nice to him! I can't believe she performed Chopsticks! OH you Atlanta people or anybody....*waves* Puh-leaze send me reviews! *gets on knees, begging* Pleeeeeeeeeeeease! Oh yeah....da link: www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Birdland/9820/lizreviews.html Please send me reviews!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Ohki....calm down Katie. I went to my fave cd store and found amazing discoveries. Ben Lee's Grandpaw Would and Liz's Juvenilia with Juvenalia on the side. Well, I picked up the Liz cd and sent it off for my friend since I knew it would be useful... Anyways.....my point: Any Ani DiFranco fans? I picked up a few (promo?) postcards cuz I remember seeing a few Ani fans on this list. There's also some Orlando magazine where I saw Courtney Love on the cover and the article is really good. I could go back and get more copies if anyone is interested. KaTiE ();) "Seek beauty in simple things. Soooooo... make everything beautiful!" me. NP: Ben Lee's Grandpaw Would (for the fourth time today) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:32:53 EST From: AngelLieb@aol.com Subject: A Question for guitar players Drats shoot. I always forget something. Well, this will be an interesting topic to talk about. For those who play guitars or whatever (I ain't fancy with the instruments, so please give me a break!)....... Just curious....which Liz song do you find to be the most difficult to play? Off wishing she'd learn to play something. KaTiE ();) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 16:59:51 -0800 (PST) From: Suzanne Walsh Subject: my thoughts on feminism Steve wrote: > As far as knocking women who are part of a 'movement,' I should say that > I'm all for women who rock, I just always thought that the idea of > celebrating a bunch of chicks in music _regardless_ of their actual > talent is wayyy (pardon the extra y's) lame. I can see your point of view on this completely. But then there's this part of me that thinks about how hard it is for these women to get noticed in the music business and I soften a little. I mean, they way I see it is that I really don't like Alanis but if some 8-yr-old girl sees her on TV or something(and you know there's a good chance of that) and sees that if she wanted to - she could be a musician. I can remember listening to Tiffany and Madonna when I was younger and liking their music more than say, New Kids on the Block cuz when you're younger you feel that you can do anything and if we don't have a lot of women singers, young girls will get discouraged and feel outnumbered in a world dominated by male music. I may be taking this to the extreme but if Alanis' music can reach one girl then I think it's worth it to have her around. EVen the Spice Girls have some value - little girls adore them! I think girls that listen to them and any other female artists are gonna grow up much stronger than girls gushing over the Backstreet Boys... Then Steve said: >I always worried that the > mainstream types of people, upon learning that Liz Phair was part of > Lilith last summer, would assume she's another Jewel or Paula or > whatever. Totally! I was playing this game once with a girl where you try to go back and forth with song lyrics by using one word from their lyric and vice versa and so this guy came over and read it and he's like"I never heard any of these, who sings this?" and I said Liz and he's like, "oh, is she a lilith chick?" and I was like, "well, yeah, but not the way you mean it" and despite the fact that he's a dumbass and wouldn't get it anyway I found it very frustrating to think that people who don't know her would group her like that... Dan wrote: >I don't see Liz as a feminist, breaking > barriors for women. She's just speaking her mind. Every woman has a voice. So true; the problem is - when they do speak their minds, the media is going to label them as angry women(ani difranco, sinead o'connor, etc) and anyone who listens to them must obviously by gay then and angry at the world, and man-hating and such and such. What a sad world we live in... wow...long post. Suzanne http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Hall/9429 "You gotta have fear in your heart" _________________________________________________________ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 19:59:40 EST From: Oh4sythia@aol.com Subject: dan's Liz v. Alanis message Dan said this when differentiating between Liz and Alanis: <> Dan, as long as your message was, I loved the whole thing. Your comments about the "Women in Rock" categorization were right on. I'm just taking issue with this little snippet. Even though you meant it as a *good* thing, I just don't think it's accurate. Liz IS straightforward, but her lyrics are not without art, and some of that art CAN be labeled with technical poetic terms. To address the ones you happened to mention... Liz uses a bunch of similes, like "you're like a vine that keeps climbing higher." Supernova is just one big simile/metaphor fest: "like gilded grass...like a cherub's bare wet ass.... like a volcano" She's comparing this guy to a supernova, a fiery angel, and a blast of friction. Symbols are all over the place too: Canary, the egg thing (wcse and the Poly. video). And okay, so she doesn't use iambic pentameter. Those poetic meters don't apply so much to music anyway - there are different rules for describing musical rhythm than for poetic rhythm. But actually, she does use iambic TETRAmeter a bit. that's u / u / u / u / (u is a short syllable, / is an accented syllable): [pause] every time I see your face I get all wet between my legs I want to fuck you like a dog <-- simile right there I'll take you home and make you like it Wow, look at me now, Mrs. May (my English teacher). Bet you didn't think I'd be using that literary analysis stuff on poetry quite like this.... Anyway, my point is that metaphors, metonymy, meter, and all those other good old workhorses of poets past can still be effective. In the hands of a good songwriter/poet, they make the message *more* clear. That's how you can identify the amateur writers: their techniques just muddy things up. Maybe this is the difference you've been sensing between Liz and Alanis. Maybe Liz leaves most of us with vivid images, like feeling trapped "like a pitbull in a basement," while Alanis leaves most of us scratching our heads. Leslie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 22:06:08 -0800 From: baggytrousers@mindspring.com Subject: wcse review in select thought some people might be interested in another review of wcse..this is from the british music mag, select...february issue Liz Phair Whitechocolatespaceegg Matador/Capitol import *The third album from the thinking person's Alanis and former Rolling Stone cover star. Currently available in Britain on import only. *Motherhood seems to have tempered Phair's former foul-mouthed repute: "After marriage and a baby you're not willing to shove your rage down people's throats. I don't want to barf out my badness." Melanie B, you will be a mother soon and must take that metal peg from your tongue and stop talking with the rude abandon of the junglist nuttah. Posh Victoria, heavy with child, desist from thrusting out the buttocks while teetering on statternly heels. Melanie of All Saints, already with daughter, you shall abandon the bump and grind forthwith. Are these really dictates that our nation's female pop stars will be heeding in months to come? Well, quite possibly, if they follow the same post-birthing trajectory as Liz Phair. "Whitechocolatespaceegg' is a long way from 1993's 'Exile in Guyville' album. Lo-fi in the extreme and equipped with titles like 'Fuck and Run', 'Guyville' was at once wounded, righteous and full of wry wit. Even on 1994's more subdued 'Whipsmart' she was still turning out songs like 'Chopsticks' with the frequently quoted lines, "He said he liked to do it backwards/I said that's just fine with me/That way we can fuck and watch TV". Now, this sexual grandstanding has been replaced by meditations on babies and the bittersweet ebb and flow of the long-established relationship. It may be grossly reductive to trace Phair's new voice solely to motherhood, but 'Whitechocolate...' does have echoes of Madonna's recent child-equipped history. But while Ms Ciccone has moved from photo sessions featuring carnal joy with Vanilla Ice to bindis and B-sides about Baby Lourdes, Liz Phair has fired herself into a world of Americana-stuffed adulthood. It comes to a head on 'Big Tall Man', which could almost be about the bleached-out family saga of John Updike's Rabbit novels set to music: "I'm a big, tall man/I cut the grass/My left eye hurts..." If 'Whitechocolate...' explores the muted, unspoken drama of adult family life, you could argue the album's often mundane music is fitting. It's also often less than riveting - 'Polyester Bride' is listless college rock, while 'Love is Nothing' has Phair sounding like Juliana Hatfield's blase elder sister. There are enough moments, though, when more cutting moods enter the frame. 'What Makes You Happy' is a mother-daughter conversation that comes alive with fretboard hammer-ons and understated lyrical wit: "He's got an ex-wife in Pasedena and sometimes she's a mess to deal with/But mostly we've been living here uninjured." 'Headache', too, removes Phair from the more insipid end of the Lilith Fair crew: "I can see the Russian Army rolling through my head...I've got seven other men in the ditches behind me, and I think I'm the last survivor..." "Whitechocolate...' is clearly a disappointment, but it's an intriguing disappointment. As for the motherhood/respectibility tandem, it still faces the ultimate test. Could a little babby(sic) impinge even on the firmly established behavioural patterns of the Cerys? (*of the band Catatonia*) 4/5 Roy Wilkinson hope someone enjoys reading it roberta ICQ # 27407066 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "Rock'n'roll is the most brutal, ugly, vicious form of expression - sly, lewd, in fact plain dirty..a rancid-smelling aphrodisiac..the martial music of every delinquent on the face of the earth..." - -Frank Sinatra 1957 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 02 Feb 1999 23:42:33 -0500 (EST) From: "Nicole W." Subject: Well said, Dan I agree with everything Dan (Danmac or something in his e-mail addy) said in the last digest. For example, "I do not classify Liz as a "Feminist" female artist. She's a rock and roller." Last year, when I wrote a paper about Liz for my History of Rock and Roll class, I was thinking about that the whole time. I mean, that's obviously why I chose her as a topic. The class is called "History of Rock and Roll," and Liz is rock and roll. Period. And my lame title to the paper was "Liz Phair: A Person Who Rocks," which, in its lamety (<-- made that word up), is supposed to convey the fact that with Liz, it's not about that she's a woman. I feel liek when people classify an artist by her gender, it is like saying "She's pretty good, for a girl" or something. Like that dude Corky from "Life Goes On." It was so great that he could break into acting because he has Down's Syndrome. You know? Like he overcame odds and stuff. I think that's how people look at most of the women in the music business, like they are overcoming odds so forgive them if they suck a little. Fine... apply that to Alan-ass, cuz she does suck, but not Liz. She just rocks, okay? And it has nothing to do with that she's a woman, except for that makes her say cool things in her lyrics that men don't say and it makes her more of a role model for me. This doesn't make the sense I want it to, nor does it say what I'm trying to say. I give up. I never make sense. I'm just going to go now. Bye. And where is everyone who is usually on #wcse? Or ANYone who is usually there? Hmmm. - -Nicole ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 23:53:03 -0500 From: "Jacquicee@msn.com" Subject: Minty Fresh Singles I hope this posts because I lost(my daughter deleted?!) the 1st message which says where to post to. Anyway I was wondering if anybody had any clues on where I could locate the Get Yer La-La's/Minty Fresh Singles Anthology CD. I didn't even know the song Carnivore existed until I joined the list about a year ago, and I'm dying to hear it. I've waited patiently for like 8 months and searched E-bay(I see vinyl listed all the time at about $40 but I don't want vinyl) othermusic.com, gemm.comm, japan.com well you get the message. Any suggestions about where I could look? I few quick comments before I go. Ruthie is your birthday January 16 if I read right. So is mine. Also as far as Sleater-Kinney I'm definitely going. I already got tickets to Philly, NYC and Boston/Cambridge. These are the 3 nights before you see them Jase. You are in for a treat. I've seen them 3 times already and they are Fantastic live. I think I'm in love with those doe eyes of Corin Tucker. One last thing. PLEASE STOP talking about Alanis, I can't stand it anymore. Later, Bill in CT P.S. Spaceegg Katie. Did you get my E-mail about the pen. And KB where did you get those Liz pics I talked about? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 00:13:42 -0500 From: Jason Long Subject: For those who are interested... The tickets to Sleater-Kinney's show at the Opera House in Toronto go on sale on Thursday. $14 plus service charges, through Ticketbastard of course. Dig me out, Jase NP: Pavement, _Brighten the Corners_ ------------------------------ End of support-system-digest V2 #33 ***********************************