From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V5 #93 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, May 22 2003 Volume 05 : Number 093 Today's Subjects: ----------------- Re: b/chosen ["jzitt@metatronpress.com" ] Re: b/chosen [Hilary Hertzoff ] Re: b/chosen [Joseph Zitt ] Re: b/chosen [Robert Stacy ] Re: b/chosen [meredith ] Re: b/chosen [Hilary Hertzoff ] b/Chosen ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/chosen [Robert Stacy ] Re: b/chosen ["marty" ] Re: b/chosen ["marty" ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 05:48:06 -0400 From: "jzitt@metatronpress.com" Subject: Re: b/chosen > Hi, > > Spoiler space ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Well, it's done, at least in its present form. A pretty good closing episode, all told. It did feel to me, though, like a much longer episode squished into a single hour. Things shot by so fast that they didn't have the impact that I had wished -- I found myself thinking that I'd have to download the script to figure out what happened and what some of the lines were. Most of the deaths seemed kinda perfunctory. I didn't see Anya really having been protecting Andrew when she died -- though, come to think of it, that does seem like the kind of grand romantic story that Andrew tends to construct around real events. It was a surprise to see the geeky girl get killed. At least I think she got killed. The faces seem to get harder sort out when people are lying on the ground splattered with blood. And Buffy's wounding and recovery didn't make sense from what I could tell - -- first she's lying on the ground apparently greviously wounded, then she gets pissed off enough at the First that she hops to her feet apparently healed? And what exactly did the spell do? Were just the potentials activated, or were all girls? I had a feeling that I missed a detail. And what happened to the First? Was it destroyed in some way, or did it just wander off when the army was destroyed? I liked the moment with the original four together, then them peeling off one by one. The biggest problem for me was what didn't happen with Dawn. It seemed pretty obvious that the amulet was meant for her to use, seein' as she has a soul but wasn't exactly human. Spike getting it didn't quite click. And, like the scythe, it had a bit of a Deus Ex Machina feel to it, just happening to fall into their hands when needed. So Dawn never got to use the her keyeyness. *grumble* But I thought the interaction with Angel was a hoot. The last thing I would have expected would have been for her to just send him away. And I can see some goofy storylines possible for Angel, when there are now a raft of girls with sudden superpowers running around the world. I picture high school behavior issues sprouting like crazy. - -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ . ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 08:13:08 -0400 From: Hilary Hertzoff Subject: Re: b/chosen On Wednesday 21 May 2003 05:48, jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote: > > Hi, > > > > Spoiler space ... > > > > > > Well, it's done, at least in its present form. A pretty good closing > episode, all told. > > It did feel to me, though, like a much longer episode squished into a > single hour. Things shot by so fast that they didn't have the impact that I > had wished -- I found myself thinking that I'd have to download the script > to figure out what happened and what some of the lines were. It should have been a two-part episode or a two hour episode or something. They wasted too much time this year having Buffy give bad speeches. > And Buffy's wounding and recovery didn't make sense from what I could tell > -- first she's lying on the ground apparently greviously wounded, then she > gets pissed off enough at the First that she hops to her feet apparently > healed? I don't think she was healed; I think she was running on adrenalin...we've seen her get up before during a fight when she was badly wounded and keep fighting > > And what exactly did the spell do? Were just the potentials activated, or > were all girls? I had a feeling that I missed a detail. All potentials. > > And what happened to the First? Was it destroyed in some way, or did it > just wander off when the army was destroyed? > I thought Buffy got it with the scythe, but I could be mistaken. > The biggest problem for me was what didn't happen with Dawn. It seemed > pretty obvious that the amulet was meant for her to use, seein' as she has > a soul but wasn't exactly human. Spike getting it didn't quite click. And, > like the scythe, it had a bit of a Deus Ex Machina feel to it, just > happening to fall into their hands when needed. So Dawn never got to use > the her keyeyness. *grumble* > That never even occured to me. (Dawn getting the amulet; Dawn being keyey did, but then they haven't done anything Dawn-keyey since the 5th season...) > But I thought the interaction with Angel was a hoot. The last thing I would > have expected would have been for her to just send him away. > I will never look at cookies the same way again. > And I can see some goofy storylines possible for Angel, when there are now > a raft of girls with sudden superpowers running around the world. I picture > high school behavior issues sprouting like crazy. Did anybody else feel like the ending was a premise for a new series or something? A group of intrepid heroes drive cross country in a school bus, looking for potentials and fighting demons. Each week they stop in a new town and wackyness ensues.... (The worst part is that I'd be happy to watch it.) I imagine we'll have at least some of these stories in the comic books and novels, though. >--- allenw wrote: >> On Tue, 20 May 2003, meredith wrote: >> >> > Hi, >> > >> > Spoiler space ... >> > >> > (spoiler space snipped) >> > >> > Well. >> > >> > Damn. >> > >> > Joss did it. >> > >> > And I guess we now have our answer about whether >> > Spike will be on _Angel_ >> > next season. >> > >> I wouldn't count him out yet. The WB's still >> advertising him as an >> Angel cast member, and it's not like Wolfram and >> Hart haven't brought >> vampires back from the dead before... >What exactly was the Shanshu Prophecy? That a vampire >with a soul would die to prevent an apocalypse and >would be reborn human? >Heh heh heh I knew there was a reason I should have watched the Angel 1st season DVDs (not my favorite season, so I'd been putting it off). HIlary - -- Hilary L. Hertzoff hhertzof@panix.com Young Adult Librarian Mamaroneck Public Library Mamaroneck, NY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 12:13:48 -0700 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/chosen Hilary Hertzoff wrote: >On Wednesday 21 May 2003 05:48, jzitt@metatronpress.com wrote: > > >>>Hi, >>> >>>Spoiler space ... >>> >>> >>> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >>And what happened to the First? Was it destroyed in some way, or did it >>just wander off when the army was destroyed? >> >>I thought Buffy got it with the scythe, but I could be mistaken. >> As I understood it, the scythe shouldn't affect it, since it was noncorporeal, but it may have been another bit of nifty magic that got past me. (Ever notice that all the evil thingies have achilles' heels, such as Gnarl's eyes? Ya gotta wonder why this is so -- is there a meta-rule that all evil things have to have one method of defeat? How is that enforced, and how is it decided?) >>And I can see some goofy storylines possible for Angel, when there are now >>a raft of girls with sudden superpowers running around the world. I picture >>high school behavior issues sprouting like crazy. >> >> > >Did anybody else feel like the ending was a premise for a new series or >something? A group of intrepid heroes drive cross country in a school bus, >looking for potentials and fighting demons. Each week they stop in a new >town and wackyness ensues.... (The worst part is that I'd be happy to watch >it.) I imagine we'll have at least some of these stories in the comic books >and novels, though. > Just think: they could have Joyce Summers' spirit speak through the radio, and do crossovers with "My Mother the Car"! (Oy, am I dating myself...) Or they could encounter the bus from "Priscilla: Queen of the Desert".... BTW, what did Giles says just after he said "There's another one in Cleveland"? ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:22:04 -0400 From: Robert Stacy Subject: Re: b/chosen Joseph Zitt wrote: > > BTW, what did Giles says just after he said "There's another one in > Cleveland"? GILES: (off Buffy's look) Not to spoil the moment. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 18:38:43 -0400 From: meredith Subject: Re: b/chosen Hi, (do I still need spoiler space?) Todd responded: >What exactly was the Shanshu Prophecy? That a vampire >with a soul would die to prevent an apocalypse and >would be reborn human? > >Heh heh heh. Oh, that is BEAUTIFUL. Obviously, that hadn't even occurred to me. Sue added: >I found the ending satisfying though--and just the right balance of comedy >and tragedy that Joss seems to get perfectly and other writers don't always >quite get. Indeed. One can spot a Joss-penned episode a mile away -- his writing is always at a whole other level from everyone else's. The dialogue is sharper, and the characters more true to themselves ... but I suppose that makes sense, since they are all his characters, after all. >It did feel to me, though, like a much longer episode squished into a >single hour. Things shot by so fast that they didn't have the impact that I >had wished -- I found myself thinking that I'd have to download the script >to figure out what happened and what some of the lines were. I do wish they had ended it as a two-parter. We had to rewind TiVo a few times to catch lines as they flew by, ourselves. >Most of the deaths seemed kinda perfunctory. I didn't see Anya really >having been protecting Andrew when she died -- though, come to think of it, >that does seem like the kind of grand romantic story that Andrew tends to >construct around real events. That's how I saw it when he said it. >It was a surprise to see the geeky girl get >killed. At least I think she got killed. The faces seem to get harder sort >out when people are lying on the ground splattered with blood. It was indeed Amanda. Sad, that. :( >And Buffy's wounding and recovery didn't make sense from what I could tell >-- first she's lying on the ground apparently greviously wounded, then she >gets pissed off enough at the First that she hops to her feet apparently >healed? As Hilary pointed out, it was probably adrenaline. Heck, if Jack Bauer could survive until the end of the day after going through what he went through on this season of _24_ (up to and including cardiac arrest), Buffy the Slayer could get past a pesky stab wound to get her job done. >And what happened to the First? Was it destroyed in some way, or did it >just wander off when the army was destroyed? My impression was that Spike destroyed the First with his amulet power. Originally I'd thought that Buffy destroyed it with her axe, but that wasn't shown, and moreover I can't see how she could have destroyed it with the axe. >The biggest problem for me was what didn't happen with Dawn. It seemed >pretty obvious that the amulet was meant for her to use, seein' as she has >a soul but wasn't exactly human. Spike getting it didn't quite click. And, >like the scythe, it had a bit of a Deus Ex Machina feel to it, just >happening to fall into their hands when needed. So Dawn never got to use >the her keyeyness. *grumble* Yes. Though there were multiple endings filmed -- perhaps in one of them, Dawn was the one with the amulet? We won't know until the DVD, I suppose... >But I thought the interaction with Angel was a hoot. The last thing I would >have expected would have been for her to just send him away. I was *so* happy when that happened. Having Angel be there throughout the entire episode would have just been a needless distraction. (Incidentally, I will never look at cookie dough the same way again either. :) And as for there being another Hellmouth in Cleveland: didn't we know that, from "The Wish"? (Also incidentally, I am convinced that there really is a Hellmouth located in West Haven, Connecticut. That place has something seriously wrong with it. :P) >And I can see some goofy storylines possible for Angel, when there are now >a raft of girls with sudden superpowers running around the world. I picture >high school behavior issues sprouting like crazy. Oh yes!! I hope that pops up on _Angel_ at some point. Hilary wondered: >Did anybody else feel like the ending was a premise for a new series or >something? A group of intrepid heroes drive cross country in a school bus, >looking for potentials and fighting demons. Each week they stop in a new >town and wackyness ensues.... (The worst part is that I'd be happy to watch >it.) I imagine we'll have at least some of these stories in the comic books >and novels, though. I'd tune in!! Leave it to Joss to end the series with a new beginning. Argh... =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org =============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 19:29:02 -0400 From: Hilary Hertzoff Subject: Re: b/chosen On Wednesday 21 May 2003 18:38, meredith wrote: > Hi, > > (do I still need spoiler space?) > (much snipped) > >And what happened to the First? Was it destroyed in some way, or did it > >just wander off when the army was destroyed? > > My impression was that Spike destroyed the First with his amulet > power. Originally I'd thought that Buffy destroyed it with her axe, but > that wasn't shown, and moreover I can't see how she could have destroyed it > with the axe Upon consideration, I don't think Buffy did get it with the axe/scythe (I need to watch this episode again!). Didn't the First say something about having to overwhelm them with numbers before being made flesh (or did I just dream that?...I don't normally dream Buffy, but I had a really weird one last night that I don't quite remember.). It may be that the First's power is derived from worship or fear, and so it may have been defeated either when its army started losing or when Buffy and co. realized that they could win this. (Was that even coherent???) > > >The biggest problem for me was what didn't happen with Dawn. It seemed > >pretty obvious that the amulet was meant for her to use, seein' as she has > >a soul but wasn't exactly human. Spike getting it didn't quite click. And, > >like the scythe, it had a bit of a Deus Ex Machina feel to it, just > >happening to fall into their hands when needed. So Dawn never got to use > >the her keyeyness. *grumble* > > Yes. Though there were multiple endings filmed -- perhaps in one of them, > Dawn was the one with the amulet? We won't know until the DVD, I > suppose... Ooh, I hadn't even thought that they might release the alternate endings. I hope they do. > And as for there being another Hellmouth in Cleveland: didn't we know that, > from "The Wish"? > We knew that Buffy had been sent there - did they actually mention a Hellmouth? And it had never been mentioned in the "real" world. I thought it was a nice bit of continuity. > (Also incidentally, I am convinced that there really is a Hellmouth located > in West Haven, Connecticut. That place has something seriously wrong with > it. :P) Wouldn't surprise me. Hilary - -- Hilary L. Hertzoff hhertzof@panix.com Young Adult Librarian Mamaroneck Public Library Mamaroneck, NY ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 17:28:16 -0700 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: b/Chosen Howdy. Spoiler space I'm very pleased at how the series ended. When Buffy took that "death stroke," I thought, "Oh, no! Joss lied again! He did kill her another time!" I didn't realize Amanda had died. Too bad. She was my favorite Potential. I knew Anya was going to buy it when she was paired with Andrew -- all that foreshadowing last week. I loved the ridiculous childishness of the scene with Angel. I loved the principal's little speech as they entered the school ("Welcome to Sunnydale High. There will be no running in the halls, no gum chewing, etc.") I really loved the scene with Robin and Faith. It's about time someone clued that girl into the fact that not all men are scum and she's not the hottie she thinks she is. Willow's spell: I think her hair turning white symbolized two things. First, I think it was to show that she was doing an enormous good thing, contrasting with the black hair she got last season when she did evil. Second, I think it was a nod to last week's crone ex machina and signified that Willow is her logical successor. I liked the solution being to bring out the potential in the Potentials to make them all full-fledged Slayers. Joss has always said that the motivation for the series was empowering women, and that was a wonderful way to do it. I was surprised not only that the spell was a possibility, but also that it would not only empower the Potentials in Sunnydale, but all the others all over the world. (And I'm assuming that as new ones are born, they will get power.) I liked how they showed all the unknown ones. Hey, they even had a fat one! She looked like she was in an abusive situation, and was just then prepared to defend herself. It also was a terrific solution to the "more power" problem. In the episode where the shamans offered Buffy more power from the demon, she turned it down because she values her humanity so and feared losing it. This was a solution that enabled them all to be human yet more so. Thinking of the paper I'm writing (on Buffy and Christian symbolism), it makes me think of Jesus and the Last Supper. It's a sharing of the power and "I call you friends" and has all kinds of resonances. I think Buffy got the idea for the spell/solution when the First was taunting her with "alone." Now there's a world full of girls who suddenly have unexpected powers. I think there's work for the Scoobies, finding and training these girls. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 23:02:28 -0400 From: Robert Stacy Subject: Re: b/chosen Hilary Hertzoff wrote: > > On Wednesday 21 May 2003 18:38, meredith wrote: >> Hi, >> >> (do I still need spoiler space?) >> > (much snipped) > >>> And what happened to the First? Was it destroyed in some way, >>> or did it just wander off when the army was destroyed? >> >> My impression was that Spike destroyed the First with his amulet >> power. Originally I'd thought that Buffy destroyed it with >> her axe, but that wasn't shown, and moreover I can't see how >> she could have destroyed it with the axe > > Upon consideration, I don't think Buffy did get it with the > axe/scythe (I need to watch this episode again!). Didn't the > First say something about having to overwhelm them with numbers > before being made flesh (or did I just dream that?...I don't > normally dream Buffy, but I had a really weird one last night > that I don't quite remember.). It may be that the First's power > is derived from worship or fear, and so it may have been defeated > either when its army started losing or when Buffy and co. > realized that they could win this. (Was that even coherent???) Buffy's confrontation with the First seemed to be one of those moments that suffered from the breakneck editing required to cram this last episode into 43 minutes. It was not as clear as it might have been. One salient aspect is that it was the _First_ that referred to Buffy's wound as fatal ("Mommy, this mortal wound is all . . . itchy")--certainly a remark gauged to demoralize her at a crucial moment. Buffy's anger and defiance--and complete rejection of the notion--is what got her back up on her feet. To mere mortals like me, though, it certainly looked like her stabbing would have killed her, if only from eventual blood loss. >>> The biggest problem for me was what didn't happen with Dawn. >>> It seemed pretty obvious that the amulet was meant for her to >>> use, seein' as she has a soul but wasn't exactly human. Spike >>> getting it didn't quite click. And, like the scythe, it had a >>> bit of a Deus Ex Machina feel to it, just happening to fall >>> into their hands when needed. So Dawn never got to use the >>> her keyeyness. *grumble* >> >> Yes. Though there were multiple endings filmed -- perhaps in >> one of them, Dawn was the one with the amulet? We won't know >> until the DVD, I suppose... > > Ooh, I hadn't even thought that they might release the alternate > endings. I hope they do. Who says Dawn has a soul? Does the Key have a soul? _Is_ the Key a soul? Who knows? And, if so, were the writers going to nail all that down in a one-hour series-ending episode, in a way that would be satisfying to the average, casual viewer? I never expected that Dawn--whether via Key-itude, or simple sisterly feistiness--would be pivotal in defeating the First. There was no "viewer refresh" this season to set up anything to do with Dawn's fifth-season significance as the Key. Dawn is now Dawn, Buffy's sister. She's got moxie, but "Potential"-- if only metaphorically--pretty much established her role for the remainder of the season. >> And as for there being another Hellmouth in Cleveland: didn't >> we know that, from "The Wish"? > > We knew that Buffy had been sent there - did they actually mention > a Hellmouth? And it had never been mentioned in the "real" world. ? I thought it was a nice bit of continuity. Me too. It was stated, during Giles' phone call to Buffy's alternate-reality Watcher in "The Wish," that there was a lot of demonic activity in Cleveland--though a Hellmouth was not specifically mentioned. I took it at the time as a tongue-in-cheek bash of Cleveland. The element of continuity in the "Chosen" reference was clever. >> (Also incidentally, I am convinced that there really is a >> Hellmouth located in West Haven, Connecticut. That place has >> something seriously wrong with it. :P) > > Wouldn't surprise me. Thanks for the warning, meredith. I'll steer wide of it. > Hilary > -- I think the scene with Anya and Andrew battling the harbingers was another that suffered from time limitations. When Andrew is about to be knifed, the next shot is of Anya stabbing someone (his attacker?) out of frame, whereupon she is cleaved nearly in two from behind. But the jump in camera angles, and the absence of a shot that included both of them together in frame at the time, makes it all inferential at best. I also caught the whiff of possibility that storyteller Andrew might be spinning a tale--just because of his history--and thought it unfortunate that the earlier cutting (sorry) introduced that element of doubt. Anya deserved better. Other random observations: The LAST OF THE MOHICANS-inspired music during the climactic battle beneath the Seal got a grin out of me, what with all the axe-wielding going on. I've been waiting for it, ever since Cassie's precognitive assurance to Spike in "Help": "She'll tell you. Someday she'll tell you." And so she did. Buffy's "Make your choice . . . are you ready to be strong?" speech, with the attendant situational shots, was terrific-- the high point of the episode, and a great, closing resonance for the series. I got a laugh out of the final "grr-ARGH" guy. Finally had the guts to look us all in the eye! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:34:49 -0700 From: "marty" Subject: Re: b/chosen > >>> And what happened to the First? Was it destroyed in some way, > >>> or did it just wander off when the army was destroyed? I think the First's strength was other's fear and indecision. The fear of falilure. Everything the First did was to instill a sense of failure in people. When Angel was suicidal, Dawn's being told by her mother that Buffy wouldn't choose her, etc. The turning point was when Buffy said she just realized she could win. Then when the First taunted her, Buffy knew she was going to be fine and her certainty killed the First. Buffy has always had super healing powers. Also, I think Joss will find a way to continue the story. Comic book, tv series, whatever. There is just too much story there. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 21 May 2003 21:55:02 -0700 From: "marty" Subject: Re: b/chosen Posted elsewhere A man carrying a backpack stands at the lip of the Sunnydale Crater. He has obviously walked a long way to get here and now facing the desolation he is practically dumbfounded. His face shows a little confusion and possibly regret. His eyebrow raises - OZ - "Oh." ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V5 #93 ****************************