From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V5 #46 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Monday, March 10 2003 Volume 05 : Number 046 Today's Subjects: ----------------- a/salvage ["Donald G. Keller" ] Re: a/salvage [allenw ] Re: a/salvage [Todd Huff ] Re: a/salvage [meredith ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 09:10:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Donald G. Keller" Subject: a/salvage One more thing I forgot to comment on (can you tell I've been re-watching the episode?): the little conversation between Conner and Faith about why Slayers are girls. Which is almost the exact same conversation that Andrew and Dawn had. DAWN: 'Cause girls are cooler? FAITH: I dunno. Maybe we're better at it. In any case, I think it's fair to say that Conner is in fact as close to a male Slayer as we've seen. Todd: Like you, I'm guessing that Cordelia is not in league with the First; there's always a first (haha) time, but so far the two shows have kept their apocalypses discrete. What we =don't= know is how far back Cordelia's double-dealing goes. Is this even Cordelia? (Is the real one still in "heaven"?) Is this a Cordelia whose stated part-demon nature has taken over? =Did= she really have amnesia? How long has this plan been going on? It's enough to send one back to rewatch the season (though whether I actually will is another question). Going back to an earlier post: I was interested to hear you say that that was the best =Angel= episode in some time. There seems to be a school of thought (Meredith among them, though I'll let her speak for herself) that feels that =Angel= has been better than =Buffy= this year. Speaking for myself, this has never been true and still isn't: =Buffy= remains the A show and =Angel= remains the B show (lettercoding notwithstanding). The best =Angel= episodes ever, in my mind, have featured Buffy or Faith or both (which makes them not quite "pure" =Angel= episodes). This =Angel= season has certainly been a good one, but I'm making a guess that it will be most memorable, for me, for this Faith trilogy that's just begun. I suspect you're right that the Bringer knives have some intrinsic importance, though your speculation (that they draw power from the Potentials) seems to me another for the "possible but farfetched" category. And I don't really understand your point: how is that speculation connected with the fact that Potentials are still trickling in? Just to be clear on the distinctions I'm making, it seems to me there are quite a few different "locator spells" in use. The Coven uses not so much a spell as a species of clairvoyance; Willow's spell in "Potential" was different from her usual locator spell (which seems to locate a known person); also different I think from the demon-locator spell she's used more than once; and most likely different again is whatever the Bringers are using (probably magical, I'm speculating). That's the end of my notes for this round. Can Wednesday get here any faster, please? ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 11:27:54 -0600 (CST) From: allenw Subject: Re: a/salvage On Sun, 9 Mar 2003, Donald G. Keller wrote: > Going back to an earlier post: I was interested to hear you say that that > was the best =Angel= episode in some time. There seems to be a school of > thought (Meredith among them, though I'll let her speak for herself) that > feels that =Angel= has been better than =Buffy= this year. Speaking for > myself, this has never been true and still isn't: =Buffy= remains the A > show and =Angel= remains the B show (lettercoding notwithstanding). The > best =Angel= episodes ever, in my mind, have featured Buffy or Faith or > both (which makes them not quite "pure" =Angel= episodes). This =Angel= > season has certainly been a good one, but I'm making a guess that it will > be most memorable, for me, for this Faith trilogy that's just begun. > Don, There are certainly many people, on many fora, who say that =Angel= is better than =Buffy= this year. They might even be right in absolute terms, but I can't properly judge; I've been watching =Buffy= for twice as long, and I'm far more invested in the show and the characters than I am for =Angel=, so I'm generally more interested in =Buffy=, and no doubt willing to cut it more slack. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 9 Mar 2003 12:43:56 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: a/salvage > I suspect you're right that the Bringer knives have > some intrinsic > importance, though your speculation (that they draw > power from the > Potentials) seems to me another for the "possible > but farfetched" category. > And I don't really understand your point: how is > that speculation connected > with the fact that Potentials are still trickling > in? > I'm a bit confused with it myself, and am almost certainly wrong, but here's my main thought. Suppose there are always a certain number of potentials. For the sake of argument, let's call it 20. When a Bringer kills a potential with one of the magic knives, this number is reduced to 19. There is no new girl then tagged as a potential. Another potential killed with a magic knife, the number goes down to 18. When a potential dies in another way, though, the potentiality passes to another girl. Thus, when Annabelle is killed by the Turok-han, another potential is created somewhere. When Chloe kills herself, another potential is created. If this is the case, then the First's strategy would obviously be to kill all the potentials with her magic blades and then kill the Slayer. No potential to take over, the Slayer line dies. This would tie in with the attempt on Faith's life, assuming the First thinks she is a mere potential. The problem with this, of course, is just why is the First killing off potentials from time to time without the magic knives. The only thing I can think of is that it's simple harrassment. Keeping Giles and the coven tracking down potentials reduces what else they can accomplish. Meanwhile the main evil plot advances. . Yahoo! Tax Center - forms, calculators, tips, more http://taxes.yahoo.com/ ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 09 Mar 2003 19:24:16 -0500 From: meredith Subject: Re: a/salvage Hi, Okay, I finally have time to reply to some of this stuff ... >Faith! > >Faith! > >Faith! > >Faith! > >Faith! > >Faith! > >Faith! > >(Repeat until screen is full, program. Points for ref ID.) I don't get the ID, but it's good spoiler space. :) >I'm actually going to start with my one real gripe with the episode: >simply having Faith break out of jail was really lame. Indeed. I had envisioned it thusly: The blacking out of the sun spreads from L.A. to wherever the women's prison is, and anarchy ensues as vampires and demons breach the prison walls. With this diversion, Faith is able to escape easily. Figuring that the best place to go would be to find Angel in L.A., that's exactly what she does. If nothing else, this is a much better scenario because chances are nobody would even notice Faith had gone missing. >(Another lame thing >I haven't mentioned, from earlier: the sun is only blocked out =in Los >Angeles?????= Please.) It was clearly stated (in the episode where they discovered the Beast's plot to black out the sun) that the darkness would start in L.A. and then spread to the rest of the world. That's fine -- but what I find lame is the fact that the spreading never happened. >In one of the novels, Christopher >Golden's =The Wisdom of War= (which has a really fine >Buffy-meets-Faith-again scene), Quentin Travers gets Faith out of jail >because Buffy isn't cooperating; This reminds me of something I've been meaning to mention here -- anyone else notice Quentin Travers on _24_ this season? (He plays the traitorous head of the NSA.) Daniel Dae Kim has recently showed up on _24_ as well -- after Gavin bit the dust in the carnage at Wolfram & Hart, Kim appeared as a CTU agent heading up Keifer Sutherland's field team. >Other than that...the sheer pleasure of having Faith back in the mix lived >up to my high expectations, thank you very much. I haven't been in the >habit of re-watching =Angel= episodes very often, but this one I rewound >and watched the Faith scenes over again right away. I'm starting to wish I hadn't deleted it from TiVo. Faith's return was just as cool as I'd hoped. Eliza Dushku is *so* good. >But the =most= interesting part was Faith and Conner. Pretty obviously >Faith is to Conner as Buffy was to Faith...but note how Faith's solution >to the problem was more direct--and more effective. (And how hilarious is >it that Conner ended up =liking= it!) Connor is also clearly totally besotted with her. Gee, I wonder why. :) >So I'm guessing that the Beast is the father, yes? That is certainly what we're meant to believe. Todd added: >Of course we all noticed what kind of knife the >attacker was using, didn't we? Hard to sneak Bringers >into the prison, I'm guessing. Yes!! We all looked at one another, pointing at the screen. :) One wonders how the knife got into the prison. I hope we find out at some point. >Was Cordy more pissed when she saw Faith walk in the >door or when the sun came back out? Probably the latter, in light of her status as the Beast's boss. Though I'm sure she wasn't exactly thrilled to see Faith standing there, either. marty noted: >Yah know, that sequence made me wonder if Angel isn't back. He really hasn't >killed anyone, just a vampire or two. We noticed that, too. Most signs point to his being Angelus, but I do think there is something odd going on there. Joe mused: >It struck me last night that the evilization of Cordy may have been planted >farther back than her supposed return. The whole "higher being" thing came >to our attention when Skip suddenly showed up to tell her. She, and we, >automatically believed it, though it did seem to be a bit of a credibility >stretcher. All we've apparently seen of her since is her kvetching from up >in the sky that she's bored. This occurred to me too. The minute Cordy killed Lilah at the end of the previous episode, I thought that the real Cordy is still stuck in the boredom dimension, probably looking at everything that's going on shouting "come ON, you MORONS, that can't POSSIBLY be me!!!" Back to Don: >But though Joss Has (Apparently) Spoken, =it has never been so stated >within the continuity=. And I wonder if we're being set up. Is it possible >that Buffy (and even Giles) are =unaware= that the line now runs through >Faith? It is entirely possible. Certainly the "two Slayers -- no waiting" scenario hasn't occurred before, so it makes sense that the Watcher's Council wouldn't know exactly how it would affect things like the line of succession. >(though the Potentials don't even know for >sure that she exists: remember Vi saying she'd heard there was another >Slayer "somewhere" and Kennedy scoffing? Kennedy is in for a rude >awakening). Oh, yes. I'm really looking forward to that scene. >But maybe the explanation >is this: =the First is unaware that Faith is an active Slayer=. I don't buy that, though again, since two active Slayers have never occurred before I guess it is somewhat possible. Joe responded: >I have a hunch on this: while the two shows are running approximately in >sync, I don't think they're in exact sync. The next =Buffy= could, for >example, begin with the phone call, and cover a couple of days, during which >the three =Angel= episodes could happen, with the sync happening at the end >of the next =Buffy= episode, with the character that shows up on =Angel= >briefly heading over there, and Faith showing up in =Buffy= episode >number... uh... End minus 4 (or 5, depending on how you count it). I concur. The events taking place over the past several _Angel_ episodes have clearly only encompassed a couple of days, whereas the last several _Buffy_ episodes have spanned weeks. Assuming that _Angel_ has been far ahead of _Buffy_ for a while now, it's possible that we could see the other end of the phone call in the next _Buffy_ episode or two. The two shows are going to have to synch up sometime soon, since Faith has to move from one to the other. Once again, back to Don: >Todd: Like you, I'm guessing that Cordelia is not in league with the >First; there's always a first (haha) time, but so far the two shows have >kept their apocalypses discrete. I disagree. Since up until very recently an actual crossover between the shows was impossible, I think Joss & co. contrived a subtle crossover where the Big Bad would be the same on both shows this year. It makes sense that the First wouldn't just be in one place. I'd need to dig up the references, but I have seen interviews with ME folks where they have intimated that the First is indeed on both shows. >There seems to be a school of >thought (Meredith among them, though I'll let her speak for herself) that >feels that =Angel= has been better than =Buffy= this year. As much as I have enjoyed _Buffy_ this year, I do stand by my assertion. _Angel_ has had far more jaw-dropping moments, and a lot more complexity of character. Since Angelus came back, I'm even enjoying David Boreanaz's performance for the first time ever. Todd explained: >Suppose there are always a certain number of >potentials. For the sake of argument, let's call it >20. When a Bringer kills a potential with one of the >magic knives, this number is reduced to 19. There is >no new girl then tagged as a potential. Another >potential killed with a magic knife, the number goes >down to 18. > >When a potential dies in another way, though, the >potentiality passes to another girl. Thus, when >Annabelle is killed by the Turok-han, another >potential is created somewhere. When Chloe kills >herself, another potential is created. Sort of a "law of conservation of Slayer power"? Slayer Power cannot be created nor destroyed; it can only be passed to a new Potential, or else "sucked up" (for lack of a better term) by a Bringer Knife. I'll buy that. =============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth =============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org NEXT UP: Dorothy Scott, 3/16/03 =============================================== ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V5 #46 ****************************