From: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org (stillpt-digest) To: stillpt-digest@smoe.org Subject: stillpt-digest V4 #167 Reply-To: stillpt@smoe.org Sender: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Errors-To: owner-stillpt-digest@smoe.org Precedence: bulk stillpt-digest Thursday, November 14 2002 Volume 04 : Number 167 Today's Subjects: ----------------- b/conversations with dead people [meredith ] Re: b/conversations with dead people ["marty" ] Re: b/conversations with dead people [allenw ] Re: b/conversations with dead people ["Berni Phillips" ] Re: b/conversations with dead people ["marty" ] Re: b/conversations with dead people [Joseph Zitt ] ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:47:02 -0500 From: meredith Subject: b/conversations with dead people Hi, Wow. These are just going to be random thoughts, because I'm too sick to come up with anything coherent today. Was this the first episode of the series where Xander was completely absent? I can't think of another one where he didn't show up at all. Was the episode supposed to be in real time? One certainly got that impression, what with the date/timestamp at the beginning of the episode. (This is also the first time we've been shown the episode title, isn't it?) But then I don't know if Andrew and Jonathan would have had time to do all that arriving in Sunnydale, sneaking around the school, and digging in just an hour. Speaking of which, R.I.P. Jonathan. :( That was kind of a shocker. And I'm sure there will be major repercussions. (Was that the cap of the Hellmouth itself?) So the Big Bad clearly perceives the Scoobies (well, at least Buffy, Dawn and Willow) as major threats to its master plan. Buffy is obvious because she's the Slayer, and Willow because she's the most powerful witch on earth. Dawn's inclusion in this is interesting -- perhaps this means we will see what her ancillary powers as the Key are? It was great to see Cassie again. Azura Skye is wonderful. Initially I was bitter that Amber Benson's agent is a dink so "Tara" couldn't be there herself, but in the end I think it worked out better to have "Tara" speaking through Cassie. (Poor Willow -- even though she now knows she wasn't really talking to Tara, you have to think the statement that her magic is going to kill all her friends is going to stick with her anyway.) I hope Buffy has good homeowner's insurance. I think this is the worst the house has ever been trashed. (At least this way she won't blame Dawn for the hole in the wall and the dead appliances. :}) Poor Dawn -- at episode's end she has no idea she wasn't really seeing her mom, so I'd imagine she's going to have some doubts about Buffy, based on what "Joyce" said to her. And *what* is up with Spike?! My theory is that's really not him siring those vampires -- wouldn't his chip kick in and make that impossible? I'm guessing it's the Big Bad posing as him. It looks like we'll go into more depth about this next week. I'm sure Don is going to write an essay or three on Buffy's conversation with the vampire from high school, so I'll leave that to him. :) I'll just say that the start of it was a brilliant representation of those awkward run-ins with people from high school (or college, or wherever) who remember you, but you have no clue who they are. On other lists I'm on people have been wondering who the singer was at the start: it was Angie Hart, formerly of Frente!. She or her band have been featured at The Bronze a couple times before, and her husband, Jessie Tobias (who is also in Splendid) is a good friend of Joss' who did a lot of work on the musical. ============================================== Meredith Tarr New Haven, CT USA mailto:meth@smoe.org http://www.smoe.org/meth ============================================== Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series http://muzak.smoe.org NEXT UP: Chris & Meredith Thompson, 12/8/02 ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 14:03:31 -0800 From: "marty" Subject: Re: b/conversations with dead people I agree! Hopefully I have it on tape and can watch it a couple more times. > Hi, > > Wow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > These are just going to be random thoughts, because I'm too sick to come up > with anything coherent today. > > Was this the first episode of the series where Xander was completely > absent? I can't think of another one where he didn't show up at all. > > Was the episode supposed to be in real time? One certainly got that > impression, what with the date/timestamp at the beginning of the > episode. (This is also the first time we've been shown the episode title, > isn't it?) But then I don't know if Andrew and Jonathan would have had > time to do all that arriving in Sunnydale, sneaking around the school, and > digging in just an hour. > > Speaking of which, R.I.P. Jonathan. :( That was kind of a shocker. And > I'm sure there will be major repercussions. (Was that the cap of the > Hellmouth itself?) > > So the Big Bad clearly perceives the Scoobies (well, at least Buffy, Dawn > and Willow) as major threats to its master plan. Buffy is obvious because > she's the Slayer, and Willow because she's the most powerful witch on > earth. Dawn's inclusion in this is interesting -- perhaps this means we > will see what her ancillary powers as the Key are? > > It was great to see Cassie again. Azura Skye is wonderful. Initially I > was bitter that Amber Benson's agent is a dink so "Tara" couldn't be there > herself, but in the end I think it worked out better to have "Tara" > speaking through Cassie. (Poor Willow -- even though she now knows she > wasn't really talking to Tara, you have to think the statement that her > magic is going to kill all her friends is going to stick with her anyway.) > > I hope Buffy has good homeowner's insurance. I think this is the worst the > house has ever been trashed. (At least this way she won't blame Dawn for > the hole in the wall and the dead appliances. :}) Poor Dawn -- at > episode's end she has no idea she wasn't really seeing her mom, so I'd > imagine she's going to have some doubts about Buffy, based on what "Joyce" > said to her. > > And *what* is up with Spike?! My theory is that's really not him siring > those vampires -- wouldn't his chip kick in and make that impossible? I'm > guessing it's the Big Bad posing as him. It looks like we'll go into more > depth about this next week. > > I'm sure Don is going to write an essay or three on Buffy's conversation > with the vampire from high school, so I'll leave that to him. :) I'll just > say that the start of it was a brilliant representation of those awkward > run-ins with people from high school (or college, or wherever) who remember > you, but you have no clue who they are. > > On other lists I'm on people have been wondering who the singer was at the > start: it was Angie Hart, formerly of Frente!. She or her band have been > featured at The Bronze a couple times before, and her husband, Jessie > Tobias (who is also in Splendid) is a good friend of Joss' who did a lot of > work on the musical. > > ============================================== > Meredith Tarr > New Haven, CT USA > mailto:meth@smoe.org > http://www.smoe.org/meth > ============================================== > Live At The House O'Muzak House Concert Series > http://muzak.smoe.org > NEXT UP: Chris & Meredith Thompson, 12/8/02 > ============================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 16:18:29 -0600 (CST) From: allenw Subject: Re: b/conversations with dead people On Wed, 13 Nov 2002, meredith wrote: > Hi, > > Wow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And *what* is up with Spike?! My theory is that's really not him siring > those vampires -- wouldn't his chip kick in and make that impossible? I'm > guessing it's the Big Bad posing as him. It looks like we'll go into more > depth about this next week. > The current Big Bad (The First Evil? The Hellmouth Personified? Let's just call it From Beneath You It Devours, or FBYID for short ) hasn't shown any ability to physically interact with the real world, so I don't see how Spike (now with Woman-Biting-Action(tm)!) could have been FBYID. The woman he bit *might* have been FBYID, but I doubt it. My Spikey theory: We've been told that the chip triggers off Spike's intent to harm. It'll go off if he points a gun with intent to shoot, but it won't go off if he swings at (pre-"tan") Buffy and knows she'll block it. Therefore, if Spike is only feeding on people as part of the siring process, and sincerely believes that those he sires are better off as vampires, then his *intent* isn't to harm them, and the chip doesn't trigger. This works even better if the people he's siring *ask* him to do so. That doesn't *seem* to have been the case with Psych-Major-Man, but we never heard his full story. - -Allen W. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 17:47:21 -0800 From: "Berni Phillips" Subject: Re: b/conversations with dead people From: "meredith" > Wow. Right back at ya, but at the same time I was very unsettled. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (This is also the first time we've been shown the episode title, > isn't it?) Yes, it is. > > Speaking of which, R.I.P. Jonathan. :( That was kind of a shocker. And > I'm sure there will be major repercussions. (Was that the cap of the > Hellmouth itself?) I was certainly shocked. I'm surprised they resisted the urge to have Andrew say, "Now you'll never have to leave it," after killing Jonathan, considering all the times Jonathan said he missed high school. I'm assuming that the purpose of Jonathan's death was to be a sacrifice, blood to help open the Hellmouth. The mix of comedy and drama was much of what unsettled me in this episode. Jonathan and Andrew were so lame and so funny in bits like wanting to join the Slayer's "gang" and "think she'll let us hang out at her house?" Then the sudden sword thrust with no preparation for us, the audience. Brrrr! > So the Big Bad clearly perceives the Scoobies (well, at least Buffy, Dawn > and Willow) as major threats to its master plan. Buffy is obvious because > she's the Slayer, and Willow because she's the most powerful witch on > earth. Dawn's inclusion in this is interesting -- perhaps this means we > will see what her ancillary powers as the Key are? I hope so. Again, funny seeing Dawn behaving when she knows she has the house to herself. Then not so funny as things begin to happen. Little Dawnie's been sneaking a peek into Willow's books, it seems. During this whole "casting out the demon" sequence, I was getting all huffy. When you have a demonic force you're fighting against, using magic is like fighting fire with fire -- great if a great big fire is your goal, not so great if you're trying to put the fire out. My inner Catholic kept screeching "You've got holy water in the house! USE IT!!!!" That's what holy water is for, cleansing and protection against evil. (And we Catholics make the sign of the cross with it when we enter a church as a reminder of our baptismal promises -- which include rejecting Satan and all his works.) Holy water and calling on the protection of St. Michael, the archangel, would have been much more effective, IMHO. > It was great to see Cassie again. Azura Skye is wonderful. Initially I > was bitter that Amber Benson's agent is a dink so "Tara" couldn't be there > herself, but in the end I think it worked out better to have "Tara" > speaking through Cassie. (Poor Willow -- even though she now knows she > wasn't really talking to Tara, you have to think the statement that her > magic is going to kill all her friends is going to stick with her anyway.) As soon as she said Willow couldn't use magic, ever again, I knew that something wanted Willow and her powers out of the way and it couldn't possibly be Tara. > I hope Buffy has good homeowner's insurance. I think this is the worst the > house has ever been trashed. Yes. It looked pretty bad. I was hoping that, when it was all over with, the house would have gone back to normal, all that having been an illusion. > Poor Dawn -- at > episode's end she has no idea she wasn't really seeing her mom, so I'd > imagine she's going to have some doubts about Buffy, based on what "Joyce" > said to her. Yes. They did a nice job making Joyce look like an angel. You notice they didn't try that effect with Cassie. Whatever this is that's doing this, it was smart and played up to just what was going to work best for each. > And *what* is up with Spike?! My theory is that's really not him siring > those vampires -- wouldn't his chip kick in and make that impossible? I'm > guessing it's the Big Bad posing as him. It looks like we'll go into more > depth about this next week. Alternate theory: multiple personality Spike has a persona, perhaps the original Spike from season 2, which isn't hampered by the chip or the soul. > I'm sure Don is going to write an essay or three on Buffy's conversation > with the vampire from high school, so I'll leave that to him. :) I'll just > say that the start of it was a brilliant representation of those awkward > run-ins with people from high school (or college, or wherever) who remember > you, but you have no clue who they are. This was entertaining, but I found it very bothersome that such a fresh vamp was able to give Buffy so much trouble. At first, he's like the vamp in the first episode of the season who Buffy has to help out of his grave when she's training Dawn. His two years of Tae Kwan Do (or however you spell it) seemed to me to be meant as a joke -- he shouldn't have been able to take on the Slayer. Unless he wasn't a real vampire. The bit at the end, when she mentioned Spike, made me doubt him. I mean, at the end of the first episode of this season, we saw something morph into the previous villains plus Buffy. We don't know if anyone could have seen this or just Spike in his delirium. But let's assume that this Whatever can appear as whatever, be invisible, and has enough control over its body that it can turn itself to dust like a real vampire. That would tie in with all the events of this episode. And perhaps there's more than one or the one can appear to be several. Dawn saw dead Joyce on the couch, dead Joyce with a demon crouching over her on the crouch, and heavenly Joyce. Berni ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 18:49:06 -0800 (PST) From: Todd Huff Subject: Re: b/conversations with dead people > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of which, R.I.P. Jonathan. :( That was > kind of a shocker. And > > I'm sure there will be major repercussions. (Was > that the cap of the > > Hellmouth itself?) > > I was certainly shocked. I'm surprised they > resisted the urge to have > Andrew say, "Now you'll never have to leave it," > after killing Jonathan, > considering all the times Jonathan said he missed > high school. I'm assuming > that the purpose of Jonathan's death was to be a > sacrifice, blood to help > open the Hellmouth. Agreed, and I'll miss him too. A very sympathetic character. > The mix of comedy and drama was much of what > unsettled me in this episode. > Jonathan and Andrew were so lame and so funny in > bits like wanting to join > the Slayer's "gang" and "think she'll let us hang > out at her house?" Then > the sudden sword thrust with no preparation for us, > the audience. Brrrr! As soon as I saw "Warren" I knew J was a goner. He was Andrew's Jiminy Cricket. > > So the Big Bad clearly perceives the Scoobies > (well, at least Buffy, Dawn > > and Willow) as major threats to its master plan. > Buffy is obvious because > > she's the Slayer, and Willow because she's the > most powerful witch on > > earth. Dawn's inclusion in this is interesting -- > perhaps this means we > > will see what her ancillary powers as the Key are? > Do we know she has any? I'm thinking this was just a plan to sow suspicion. Love is a powerful thing and Dawn even more than Buffy has "Daddy issues". Abandonment is a real fear for her and the suggestion from "Mom" that Buffy will let her down is a powerful one. > > It was great to see Cassie again. Azura Skye is > wonderful. Initially I > > was bitter that Amber Benson's agent is a dink so > "Tara" couldn't be there > > herself, but in the end I think it worked out > better to have "Tara" > > speaking through Cassie. (Poor Willow -- even > though she now knows she > > wasn't really talking to Tara, you have to think > the statement that her > > magic is going to kill all her friends is going to > stick with her anyway.) I think Willow will see through that, but I don't think Amber would have been in this episode anyhow. The chance of Morphy (as some have taken to calling the First Evil) screwing up while portraying her was much greater than appearing as a third party that Willow knew about but never met. > Yes. They did a nice job making Joyce look like an > angel. You notice they > didn't try that effect with Cassie. Whatever this > is that's doing this, it > was smart and played up to just what was going to > work best for each. Exactly. > > And *what* is up with Spike?! My theory is that's > really not him siring > > those vampires -- wouldn't his chip kick in and > make that impossible? I'm > > guessing it's the Big Bad posing as him. It looks > like we'll go into more > > depth about this next week. > > Alternate theory: multiple personality Spike has a > persona, perhaps the > original Spike from season 2, which isn't hampered > by the chip or the soul. Morphy doesn't seem to be able to take corporeal form, and would have to to have done what Spike did. I'm thinking maybe some type of possession of the undead may be possible, in which case Spike wouldn't necessarily even know what's happening. > > This was entertaining, but I found it very > bothersome that such a fresh vamp > was able to give Buffy so much trouble. At first, > he's like the vamp in the > first episode of the season who Buffy has to help > out of his grave when > she's training Dawn. His two years of Tae Kwan Do > (or however you spell it) > seemed to me to be meant as a joke -- he shouldn't > have been able to take on > the Slayer. Unless he wasn't a real vampire. The > bit at the end, when she > mentioned Spike, made me doubt him. She's had trouble with fresh vamps before. The one that hurt her back so bad in the episode where Spike tried to rape her, for instance. > I mean, at the end of the first episode of this > season, we saw something > morph into the previous villains plus Buffy. We > don't know if anyone could > have seen this or just Spike in his delirium. But > let's assume that this > Whatever can appear as whatever, be invisible, and > has enough control over > its body that it can turn itself to dust like a real > vampire. That would > tie in with all the events of this episode. I think the psychiatrist vampire wasn't the Big Bad, Cassie was, Warren was, and Joyce most likely was as well. I suspect the time and date shown at the beginning of the episode will clue us in to something else later on. Yahoo! Web Hosting - Let the expert host your site http://webhosting.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 19:03:31 -0800 From: "marty" Subject: Re: b/conversations with dead people Subject: Re: b/conversations with dead people > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Speaking of which, R.I.P. Jonathan. :( That was > > kind of a shocker. And I am still not convinced he is dead. He has been with the show since the first ep and I don't think he would be tossed aside that easily. As I recall, Joss directed this ep. Joss, the master of misdirection. > > > > So the Big Bad clearly perceives the Scoobies > > (well, at least Buffy, Dawn > > > and Willow) as major threats to its master plan. > > Buffy is obvious because > > > she's the Slayer, and Willow because she's the > > most powerful witch on > > > earth. Dawn's inclusion in this is interesting -- > > perhaps this means we > > > will see what her ancillary powers as the Key are? I sure hope this isn't a precursor to Dawn, the Vampire Slayer. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2002 23:02:51 -0800 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: Re: b/conversations with dead people This is with the caveat that I missed the episode (dammit, didn't have a blank tape, but couldn't miss the evening of Earle Brown compositions some friends of mine were playing in), so I'm getting what I could from synopses. On Wed, 13 Nov 2002 13:47:02 -0500 meredith wrote: > Hi, > > Wow. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (This is also the first time we've been shown the episode > title, isn't it?) Didn't "Once More, With Feeling" show its title? I think I recall it, but I'm not totally sure. > Speaking of which, R.I.P. Jonathan. :( That was kind of a shocker. Was D'Hoffryn speaking for Joss when he said that they never just go for a kill when they can go for the pain? > Dawn's inclusion in this is interesting -- > perhaps this means we will see what her ancillary powers as the Key > are? I hope so -- that's been a big unmentioned area hanging for a while now. - -- | josephzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | GPG: A4224EFA 558B 4948 3D8A F338 5B2E DA4D 40EF 8290 A422 4EFA | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 14 Nov 2002 00:27:34 -0800 From: Joseph Zitt Subject: b/ Shapeshifter The official tagline for next week's episode appears to confirm some guesses as to the identity of the morphy one. Or it could just be being sneaky. Includes the amount of spoilage that such usually contain. http://zentertainment.com/article.php?sid=6139 - -- | josephzitt@josephzitt.com http://www.josephzitt.com/ | | http://www.metatronpress.com/jzitt/ http://www.mp3.com/josephzitt/ | | GPG: A4224EFA 558B 4948 3D8A F338 5B2E DA4D 40EF 8290 A422 4EFA | | == New book: Surprise Me with Beauty: the Music of Human Systems == | | Comma / Gray Code Silence: the John Cage Discussion List | ------------------------------ End of stillpt-digest V4 #167 *****************************